Of refeeds and diet breaks
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dancefit2015 wrote: »This thread has been quiet lately... maybe in need of more cat pics?
All I have to add that's relevant is my diet break in January went well. I maintained throughout the 2 weeks (even while not tracking on vacation
) And then whooshed a couple of pounds this past week. Although I probably ate them back on my b-day (AKA Free food and drinks day) yesterday. Training has been going well, but I can always tell quite a difference in my strength/endurance when I'm in a deficit v.s. maintenance.
Good job on the diet break and happy belated bday!
Training during a deficit is usually going to take a little hit, but you can use relative strength to gauge whether the cut is too aggressive or if you're on track. Example: if your 8RM squat is 250lbs on maintenance/surplus, and you lose 5-10 lbs during your cut, and you end up squatting the same or just slightly less, like 240-245lbs, then you're still on track.
On the other hand, you can certainly gain strength during a cut, but volume may need to be slightly reduced. Periodization/undulation/autoregulation strategies are applicable to your programming. Just be mindful that overtraining is usually associated with under eating, so if your lifts start taking a nosedive, reassess diet, sleep, recovery, total volume, frequency, etc. and adjust accordingly.5 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
On the cat front, the tiny panther has bounced back from the snip and is running around like a maniac again. I re-read the care instructions this morning and rolled my eyes right out of my head at the part saying to keep her calm for 7-10 days. I managed to keep her calm for maybe 36 hours, primarily because she was still doped up to the gills.
Ha, yeah, I had the same with Mario, and his was major abdominal surgery! He escaped through windows five times before I finally gave in and just started letting him out. I figured that if he was going to pull his stitches he'd have done it by then jumping down from windows. He'd also started to show his displeasure at confinement by backing up to furniture and peeing on it right in front of me.5 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »This thread has been quiet lately... maybe in need of more cat pics?
All I have to add that's relevant is my diet break in January went well. I maintained throughout the 2 weeks (even while not tracking on vacation ) And then whooshed a couple of pounds this past week. Although I probably ate them back on my b-day (AKA Free food and drinks day) yesterday. Training has been going well, but I can always tell quite a difference in my strength/endurance when I'm in a deficit v.s. maintenance.
Good job on the diet break and happy belated bday!
Training during a deficit is usually going to take a little hit, but you can use relative strength to gauge whether the cut is too aggressive or if you're on track. Example: if your 8RM squat is 250lbs on maintenance/surplus, and you lose 5-10 lbs during your cut, and you end up squatting the same or just slightly less, like 240-245lbs, then you're still on track.
On the other hand, you can certainly gain strength during a cut, but volume may need to be slightly reduced. Periodization/undulation/autoregulation strategies are applicable to your programming. Just be mindful that overtraining is usually associated with under eating, so if your lifts start taking a nosedive, reassess diet, sleep, recovery, total volume, frequency, etc. and adjust accordingly.
Thanks @anubis609 !
I'm trying to do a better job at tracking my workouts and paying more attention to the numbers. My workouts are just pretty random atm because I'm mostly focusing on running/flexibility with strength training 2x/week. I think the most helpful thing has been eating a small snack before workouts. I'll usually go to bed with a decent deficit and then wake up early to workout and just feel like I'm running on empty.2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Many of the people we may consider elite, heroic, or just inspiring are probably considered so, not because of their achievements, but the grinding they did to get there. We can be our own heroes
Love this!
Here's a question. Are there any recommendations for books that address nutrition and body composition for post menopausal women? Not the "gentle yoga for seniors" type of thing, but more like "nutrition and recomp for kickass grandma's". I may be 67, but I still train for and ride metric centuries (and I'm aiming for a full century this year), run 10Ks now (and plan to do more), do weight training and have other goals that may be less common in my age group.
I was kind of blindsided when I got my DXA scan and found that the 25% body fat that is at the top of the healthy range for younger women dips into the lean range for my age group, since my goal all along has been to get under the 25%. I'm realizing there must be other health markers that change as we age, and I'd like to have some idea of how to manage my fitness in an age-appropriate way, while conceding as little as possible to limitations that come up as we get older.
Any suggestions are welcome
I'm hoping there's some insight in Lyle's book. I know he's mentioned (briefly) women of a certain age when he's done podcasts. I'm betting he touches on the subject in the book too.
That would be cool! I haven't bought the book because of cost and not being sure I would get enough out of it to make it cost-effective. Maybe if anyone reading it thinks there might be applicable information they could give me a tag? It would probably be enough to make me part with the money!
If training is your primary goal, I would wait for vol. 2. Vol. 1 is mostly about nutrition, although he does touch on exercise here and there (for postmenopausal women he recommends very heavy lifting worked up to gradually and running, if can be done safely).
Either way, having read a few chapters so far, I feel the book is well worth the price for any woman of any age. It has a wealth of practical information. Not only is it very detailed information-wise, but he also explains how to apply this information, and he has made certain distinctions for women by age in some parts. Nutrition, as it pertains to body composition, is mostly discussed by body fat level not by age (as far as I skimmed - have not read that part yet), although I did hear him mention that protein needs tend to increase with age in one of his podcasts.
I cracked up at the initial titles he was talked out of: "50 Shades of Hormones" or "Not Just Little Men."
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dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »This thread has been quiet lately... maybe in need of more cat pics?
All I have to add that's relevant is my diet break in January went well. I maintained throughout the 2 weeks (even while not tracking on vacation ) And then whooshed a couple of pounds this past week. Although I probably ate them back on my b-day (AKA Free food and drinks day) yesterday. Training has been going well, but I can always tell quite a difference in my strength/endurance when I'm in a deficit v.s. maintenance.
Good job on the diet break and happy belated bday!
Training during a deficit is usually going to take a little hit, but you can use relative strength to gauge whether the cut is too aggressive or if you're on track. Example: if your 8RM squat is 250lbs on maintenance/surplus, and you lose 5-10 lbs during your cut, and you end up squatting the same or just slightly less, like 240-245lbs, then you're still on track.
On the other hand, you can certainly gain strength during a cut, but volume may need to be slightly reduced. Periodization/undulation/autoregulation strategies are applicable to your programming. Just be mindful that overtraining is usually associated with under eating, so if your lifts start taking a nosedive, reassess diet, sleep, recovery, total volume, frequency, etc. and adjust accordingly.
Thanks @anubis609 !
I'm trying to do a better job at tracking my workouts and paying more attention to the numbers. My workouts are just pretty random atm because I'm mostly focusing on running/flexibility with strength training 2x/week. I think the most helpful thing has been eating a small snack before workouts. I'll usually go to bed with a decent deficit and then wake up early to workout and just feel like I'm running on empty.
Just remember that those decent deficits add up over time, so things like feeling a bit less energetic, a little more hungry, a little more irritable, etc. are all part of the dieting process and hormonal down regulation occurs with consistent deficits, if you've dipped into the arena of "there's not enough coffee in the world that would prevent homicide" then end the diet and take a short diet break, or undulate maintenance days with deficit days. Total average weekly deficits are a better measurement for stability than making sure you have a daily deficit.
Figure that your harder training days are going to require more energy, so eating a small snack before workouts, would definitely fit that line of thought. On lighter, less intense/rest days, you can afford to eat less, assuming you're not pushing harder than you normally would. But since your schedule is to work out first thing in the morning, you're going to backload most of your calories for the remainder of the day. Which is totally fine. It acts as part recovery and leaving enough in the tank for the next day. The only foreseeable issue is that since most people weigh themselves in the morning, eating heavy towards the end of the day will shift that weight up by the next day. Don't fall into the trap that scale weight is indicative of fat gain.
The thing is, you can't really have optimal fat loss and performance at the same time if the deficit is steep. If you want to do both, then your deficit is going to have to be small. It's ideal, but extends the fat loss period. These are just some of the factors that go into deciding what goal you have as a priority.
Pure fat loss goal: performance, recovery, and mood take a hit
Pure performance goal: fat loss takes a hit
Combination of both: time takes a hit
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Another fly by check in from me. I'm eyeball deep in data analysis for my big project (18km expressway that blitzed through loads of archaeological sites, I'm currently analysing the midden data and trying to make sense of it all - aka say something a little more intelligent than 'they harvested a mega ton of shellfish, and did a little fishing on the side'). I tend to disappear down a rabbit hole when I'm at this point, don't notice time, forget to eat (cos I'm also mega angsty so my belly doesn't remind me that's a thing), which would be great if I was still trying to lose weight, but I'm not. Add on the competitive Fitbit challenges with Pav (and GottaBurn, though god knows I won't catch up with her!), and I'm looking at my leftover cals going 'hmmm...'. I may need better lab snacks. And to remember to eat them!7
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gracegettingittogether wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Here is what happens when you see a chair and remember you used to curl up in it when you were smaller, and don't understand why you no longer fit (I can relate)
Oh he looks just like our dear dog who died last month. I miss him so much! Now I'm going to go cry...
I don't know how I missed this post, but I'm sorry. I can imagine what you are feeling. I'm dreading that day as well, as he is already on borrowed time, but I know I will always have the joyful memories with me and it does get better after a while. Lost two cats in the past, one loss was very traumatic and felt like I was never going to feel better, but I eventually did. Lots of virtual hugs in your direction.9 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »This thread has been quiet lately... maybe in need of more cat pics?
All I have to add that's relevant is my diet break in January went well. I maintained throughout the 2 weeks (even while not tracking on vacation ) And then whooshed a couple of pounds this past week. Although I probably ate them back on my b-day (AKA Free food and drinks day) yesterday. Training has been going well, but I can always tell quite a difference in my strength/endurance when I'm in a deficit v.s. maintenance.
Good job on the diet break and happy belated bday!
Training during a deficit is usually going to take a little hit, but you can use relative strength to gauge whether the cut is too aggressive or if you're on track. Example: if your 8RM squat is 250lbs on maintenance/surplus, and you lose 5-10 lbs during your cut, and you end up squatting the same or just slightly less, like 240-245lbs, then you're still on track.
On the other hand, you can certainly gain strength during a cut, but volume may need to be slightly reduced. Periodization/undulation/autoregulation strategies are applicable to your programming. Just be mindful that overtraining is usually associated with under eating, so if your lifts start taking a nosedive, reassess diet, sleep, recovery, total volume, frequency, etc. and adjust accordingly.
Thanks @anubis609 !
I'm trying to do a better job at tracking my workouts and paying more attention to the numbers. My workouts are just pretty random atm because I'm mostly focusing on running/flexibility with strength training 2x/week. I think the most helpful thing has been eating a small snack before workouts. I'll usually go to bed with a decent deficit and then wake up early to workout and just feel like I'm running on empty.
Just remember that those decent deficits add up over time, so things like feeling a bit less energetic, a little more hungry, a little more irritable, etc. are all part of the dieting process and hormonal down regulation occurs with consistent deficits, if you've dipped into the arena of "there's not enough coffee in the world that would prevent homicide" then end the diet and take a short diet break, or undulate maintenance days with deficit days. Total average weekly deficits are a better measurement for stability than making sure you have a daily deficit.
Figure that your harder training days are going to require more energy, so eating a small snack before workouts, would definitely fit that line of thought. On lighter, less intense/rest days, you can afford to eat less, assuming you're not pushing harder than you normally would. But since your schedule is to work out first thing in the morning, you're going to backload most of your calories for the remainder of the day. Which is totally fine. It acts as part recovery and leaving enough in the tank for the next day. The only foreseeable issue is that since most people weigh themselves in the morning, eating heavy towards the end of the day will shift that weight up by the next day. Don't fall into the trap that scale weight is indicative of fat gain.
The thing is, you can't really have optimal fat loss and performance at the same time if the deficit is steep. If you want to do both, then your deficit is going to have to be small. It's ideal, but extends the fat loss period. These are just some of the factors that go into deciding what goal you have as a priority.
Pure fat loss goal: performance, recovery, and mood take a hit
Pure performance goal: fat loss takes a hit
Combination of both: time takes a hit
Well combination of both definitely sounds like the best option for me. I did a lot of strength training in high school, then stopped for about a year. I lost enough strength in that year and would like to avoid losing much more. For most of my weight loss I was set at 1lb/week. Since finding this thread a few months ago I've been around 0.75 - 1 lb/week (added in refeeds) with the exception of the two diet breaks I've taken. Maybe it's time to go down to 0.5 lb/week. I still have about 18 lbs to lose, but it sounds like it'll be worth it to practice some patience in the long run.7 -
alteredstates175 wrote: »But that’s just a small blip in the larger part of actual energy intake/output. Adjust accordingly and make small adjustments at a time to find your own sweet spot. Once you find a downward trend happening that still allows you to eat comfortably, you’re on the right track. It might take a while so patience will be your friend.
Got it. Thank you. Will pick up some extra patience next time I'm at the store.
So I have been aiming to eat around 2000 calories per day for about three weeks - and more some days. Averaged 2067 calories logged 1/22 through 1/28. Averaged 2223 calories logged 1/29 through 2/4. The Libra trend line is slightly upward since I ended a diet break on Jan. 4.
Gym workouts are consistent. Have been walking some more miles because zombie apocalypse challenge. Energy levels have been higher at the gym - some days.
Going to stay at this 2000 level through Feb 12th. Then vacay - I will do what I can, but calories will likely increase and logging will be a WAG somedays. Planning to treat the vacay as a diet break.
Looking ahead to 2/20 when I return home. Was thinking of setting the target at 1800 and then exceeding that some days. Is a 10% cut too drastic? Or am I still too impatient?
Thanks for your input.
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It's all about glycogen stores. Eat a surplus for a day with a focus on carbohydrates, at least 500 grams of pure carbs. If glycogen is restored then so will the hormones that factor into energy homeostasis.
It's literally that simple.4 -
Russellb97 wrote: »It's all about glycogen stores. Eat a surplus for a day with a focus on carbohydrates, at least 500 grams of pure carbs. If glycogen is restored then so will the hormones that factor into energy homeostasis.
It's literally that simple.
Did you watch the video? Recent research shows that a one day refeed isn't enough to bring hormones back in line.8 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »It's all about glycogen stores. Eat a surplus for a day with a focus on carbohydrates, at least 500 grams of pure carbs. If glycogen is restored then so will the hormones that factor into energy homeostasis.
It's literally that simple.
Did you watch the video? Recent research shows that a one day refeed isn't enough to bring hormones back in line.
But it does. if glycogen stores are saturated. I'm like living proof. To be clear, I've already done it. Lost 130 lbs over almost 15 years. And, I look for research studies to understand "why" I was able to do what I've done.
https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi61.htm
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2000 Nov;24(11):1413-8.
Effects of short-term carbohydrate or fat overfeeding on energy expenditure and plasma leptin concentrations in healthy female subjects.
Twenty-Four-Hour Leptin Levels Respond to Cumulative Short-Term Energy Imbalance and Predict Subsequent Intake
Catherine Chin-Chance Kenneth S. Polonsky Dale A. Schoeller
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 85, Issue 8, 1 August 2000, Pages 2685–2691, https://doi.org/10.1210/jcem.85.8.6755
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My proof, going on 15 years. One day overeat on anything and everything but make sure carbs are over 500 grams.
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I watched the video, but now I can't remember… They said a one-day refeed is not enough, but two is. But then Lyle pondered if two days during the week would be OK, even if they were not consecutive days. For instance, deficit for 2-3 days, refeed, deficit 2-3 days, refeed. Can anyone tell me if it was determined if that works as well as two consecutive days? Thx!1
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Lyle is wrong. I'm sorry for those that love him but he is. Personally, I am a Lyle fan.
We need to refeed on carbohydrates and replenish glycogen stores. For most, that means 500 grams of carbs and that will do the trick. One day is enough if glycogen is full.4 -
At some point of time I don't think we have the precision measurements and long-term studies available to fully calibrate whether one day splits or two in a row is more effective. I would venture to say that either of them might be better for you long term than none and what works best for you in terms of long-term adherence is probably much more important to meeting your goals.3
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This is only because researchers have refused to study the obvious.
As a guy who has struggled with his weight his entire life and once weighed over 330 lbs, I tell you with 100% confidence that one day is enough. this summer I will hit the 15-year anniversary of my journey and one day of refeeding was the key.7 -
Russellb97 wrote: »This is only because researchers have refused to study the obvious.
As a guy who has struggled with his weight his entire life and once weighed over 330 lbs, I tell you with 100% confidence that one day is enough. this summer I will hit the 15-year anniversary of my journey and one day of refeeding was the key.
Several other people in this thread have lost equally impressive amounts of weight, @pav8888 being one of them. Your method worked for you, and that's great, but you can't conclude based on that that two day refeeds wouldn't have worked better. I'm really not sure what your aim is here tbh. To tell us we're doing it wrong?8 -
Russellb97 wrote: »Lyle is wrong. I'm sorry for those that love him but he is. Personally, I am a Lyle fan.
We need to refeed on carbohydrates and replenish glycogen stores. For most, that means 500 grams of carbs and that will do the trick. One day is enough if glycogen is full.
What percentage of your total calories is that? I'm doing awesome to hit 250 g carbs. I'm 5'6", 148 lbs, and would be having 2000-2200 calories on a refeed day.2 -
lightenup2016 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »Lyle is wrong. I'm sorry for those that love him but he is. Personally, I am a Lyle fan.
We need to refeed on carbohydrates and replenish glycogen stores. For most, that means 500 grams of carbs and that will do the trick. One day is enough if glycogen is full.
What percentage of your total calories is that? I'm doing awesome to hit 250 g carbs. I'm 5'6", 148 lbs, and would be having 2000-2200 calories on a refeed day.
Yep, the point that women simply don't have the calorie allowance to achieve that seems to have been overlooked by the PP.
FWIW, same height as you, my cals for refeeds were higher than yours due to higher TDEE, but I was aiming for min 300g of carbs based on what I'd gleaned from various podcasts Lyle has done. A quick look at his new book (which I've still only had time to have a brief look at
) says I got that about right, but y'know, he only spent three years researching and writing that thing, so we maybe shouldn't put too much stock in it. I kept fat around 50g for refeeds, and my protein was probably higher than it needed to be (the aforementioned shake consumption). That worked fine for me. 6
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