Of refeeds and diet breaks

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  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
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    bmeadows380 wrote: »
    @anubis609 - thank you very much for that excerpt with the formulas! That is so much more useful for me than the generic ones I was finding! It gives me a maintenance goal of around 2646, which is higher than MFP but may well prove to be more accurate. I was eating 1400 calories for a 1,000 calorie deficit, but I bumped it up to 1800 this week and had a 1.5 lb loss as of yesterday morning. I'll keep an eye on it for next week, and if I lose another 1.5 lbs, then I'll bump my intake up another 750 calories which would be closer Lyle's calculated value than MFP's. I very much appreciate this too, because with Lyle's formula, my 2 lb/week loss goal means I should be eating 1500-1600 calories a day and not the 1400 - that gives me much more room when I go back to full deficit!

    This formula also gives my sister some more breathing room as well. The good news is that she loves vegetables but yes, she does loved her fried foods, too - french fries, cheese sticks, fried pickles, etc. I have a convection oven at my house, but I may bite the bullet and get an air fryer as well if it will encourage her to make her own stuff instead of buying the frozen boxed stuff.

    On the one hand, she's not a big meat eater and unfortunately, she doesn't like chicken much. I've been working with her this week to try to get a variety of foods in her lunches and still give her things she likes - for instance, I bought her a bag of baked lays potato chips and purposely weighed them out into individual portions and packed them in ziplock bags so she could see what a serving size actually looked like, and so she could see she could still have the potato chips she loves; she just has to learn to portion them out.

    I wish there was a way to bookmark a particular page in a thread - I don't want to lose this! I'll have to copy and paste it into an email for myself :)

    You're welcome. And Lyle's work is much like a smartphone app, "there's an article (or book) for that." So, it's really hard to disagree with him.

    Most overweight individuals tend to not be big meat eaters, especially women. And that's not an overstatement by any means. Remember that among the three macros, carbs and fat are the worst combination to pair together for optimal body composition. They're competing substrates for fuel in the body and it can only burn one or the other, and carbs/glucose is always first in line to be used as fuel. Fat goes straight to storage*. On the other hand, it's really hard to overeat animal protein, so people who like to eat a lot tend to not prefer them.

    *Digested fat always goes to storage, but circulates out when insulin levels are low enough to meter them out via lipolysis. Glucose spikes increase insulin levels which halts lipolysis.

    If you dive deeper into the Women's Book, Lyle explains that women are driven to eat carbs from a hormonal perspective, for better or for worse, they seek out these macros because in essence, they're comfort food. And no, carbs don't make you fat, but when paired together with fat, the fat makes you fat as a consequence of eating carbs.

    That said, if she does like vegetables, there are a variety of plant-based proteins she can focus on which are usually also paired with high fiber (black beans, mushrooms, broccoli, endives, etc.). If she's metabolically healthy, meaning she doesn't have telling signs of insulin resistance (fatty liver, diabetes, PCOS, etc.) then she can eat the spectrum of all fruits and vegetables she likes. But just short of pure vegetarianism, she would still benefit from animal protein if she has an animal food preference.

    And since I'm on the topic of new dieters, I just saw this last night from Picture Fit, and the channel is really geared toward dispensing evidence based research in an enjoyable and easily understandable way for anyone interested:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OVMc2D2Ri0
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
    edited March 2018
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    HDBKLM wrote: »
    bmeadows380 wrote: »
    The good news is that she loves vegetables but yes, she does loved her fried foods, too - french fries, cheese sticks, fried pickles, etc. I have a convection oven at my house, but I may bite the bullet and get an air fryer as well if it will encourage her to make her own stuff instead of buying the frozen boxed stuff.

    On the one hand, she's not a big meat eater and unfortunately, she doesn't like chicken much. I've been working with her this week to try to get a variety of foods in her lunches and still give her things she likes - for instance, I bought her a bag of baked lays potato chips and purposely weighed them out into individual portions and packed them in ziplock bags so she could see what a serving size actually looked like, and so she could see she could still have the potato chips she loves; she just has to learn to portion them out.

    It sounds like you're doing great things for yourself and for your sister. Not to refute anything you or @anubis609 have said but just to add another possible approach to the brainstorm, when I started I didn't change any foods at all—e.g., I didn't swap a fried food for a baked version of the same food—I just started paying closer attention to how much of it I ate. I say this so that, if you find yourself getting any pushback on 'what' she's eating you could dial it back to just 'how much' for a little while. There is even anecdotal evidence that suggests people don't notice the quantity difference if they're served 20% less food, and/or that if you serve food on a smaller plate that looks piled up people are happier than if an emptier-looking big plate is put in front of them, even if the actual quantity of food on the two plates is the same. Needless to say, 20% less intake is huge, especially if you don't even notice. Emphasis on the word 'anecdotal' there please don't 'woo' me. I have nothing resembling Anubis's scientific knowledge in my arsenal. Just to put that out there as a strategy idea.

    And if even THAT turns out to be too much of a change, supplemental adjustments; e.g., having that 20% less food sitting at a table over conversation instead of on the couch in front of the TV may help make it seem like enough food and/or curb mindless eating.

    Still using my own experience as a template, maybe after a couple of weeks or a month she'll be used to that first transitional step enough that you can incrementally start swapping 'healthier substitutes'—a baked thing for a fried thing, a sautéed leafy green for a starch, etc. And in so doing, if these are introduced with the idea of 'Let's try this new thing' as opposed to 'We're not allowed that anymore', in the absence of the mindset of restriction (indeed perhaps substituted with that of adventure) the 'good' things tend to gradually and naturally start crowding out the 'bad' on their own. Like, 10 months in, I would still describe myself as someone who eats anything I want, except less, BUT if I were to look back on my food diary from 10 months ago versus today, I bet that what I wanted 10 months ago and what I want now are different, only it happened so gradually that I didn't notice the change as it was happening. And 10 months isn't much in the scheme of things, so even at a 50 BMI your sister's got time to make evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, changes.

    Best of luck to you both!

    There's actual evidence, not just anecdote, to support that serving food on a 10" plate vs a traditional 12" dinner plate actually reduced the caloric amount actually eaten. However, going smaller than that didn't.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe87yDvRyQ8

    That said, if the majority of the problem is reliance on pre-packaged boxed food items, whether it's frozen or fast food, portion size is determined by what's put in the box, and the plate size strategy becomes null. But you're correct that the entirety of her diet does not need to drastically change, if at all. I provided examples of specific swaps that could potentially take place slowly over time. But as an example of portion control, if I suggested the choice to eat a whole rotisserie chicken or 4 pieces of fried chicken: 1 leg, 1 thigh, 1 breast, 1 wing = 1/2 chicken (I know she doesn't like chicken, but it's just easier to compare as an example), assuming calories being equal, it's up to the individual to say what they'd feel more satisfied with. On the one hand, they get to eat twice as many pieces with the rotisserie vs only one. On the other hand, if they love fried food, they might just choose 4 pieces of chicken. And that's perfectly fine too. Either way, there's a calorie reduction as opposed to eating a whole fried chicken.

    And yes, there are definitely studies that support eating at the dinner table vs watching tv as a predictor for risk of obesity: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3663732/ - never mind that it was an adolescent study, it's applicable to all ages since dietary meal patterns are usually integrated in early childhood.

    Don't worry about "woo" reactions. I get them regularly and I barely even pay attention to them anyway :wink:
  • HDBKLM
    HDBKLM Posts: 466 Member
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    anubis609 wrote: »
    HDBKLM wrote: »
    bmeadows380 wrote: »
    The good news is that she loves vegetables but yes, she does loved her fried foods, too - french fries, cheese sticks, fried pickles, etc. I have a convection oven at my house, but I may bite the bullet and get an air fryer as well if it will encourage her to make her own stuff instead of buying the frozen boxed stuff.

    On the one hand, she's not a big meat eater and unfortunately, she doesn't like chicken much. I've been working with her this week to try to get a variety of foods in her lunches and still give her things she likes - for instance, I bought her a bag of baked lays potato chips and purposely weighed them out into individual portions and packed them in ziplock bags so she could see what a serving size actually looked like, and so she could see she could still have the potato chips she loves; she just has to learn to portion them out.

    It sounds like you're doing great things for yourself and for your sister. Not to refute anything you or @anubis609 have said but just to add another possible approach to the brainstorm, when I started I didn't change any foods at all—e.g., I didn't swap a fried food for a baked version of the same food—I just started paying closer attention to how much of it I ate. I say this so that, if you find yourself getting any pushback on 'what' she's eating you could dial it back to just 'how much' for a little while. There is even anecdotal evidence that suggests people don't notice the quantity difference if they're served 20% less food, and/or that if you serve food on a smaller plate that looks piled up people are happier than if an emptier-looking big plate is put in front of them, even if the actual quantity of food on the two plates is the same. Needless to say, 20% less intake is huge, especially if you don't even notice. Emphasis on the word 'anecdotal' there please don't 'woo' me. I have nothing resembling Anubis's scientific knowledge in my arsenal. Just to put that out there as a strategy idea.

    And if even THAT turns out to be too much of a change, supplemental adjustments; e.g., having that 20% less food sitting at a table over conversation instead of on the couch in front of the TV may help make it seem like enough food and/or curb mindless eating.

    Still using my own experience as a template, maybe after a couple of weeks or a month she'll be used to that first transitional step enough that you can incrementally start swapping 'healthier substitutes'—a baked thing for a fried thing, a sautéed leafy green for a starch, etc. And in so doing, if these are introduced with the idea of 'Let's try this new thing' as opposed to 'We're not allowed that anymore', in the absence of the mindset of restriction (indeed perhaps substituted with that of adventure) the 'good' things tend to gradually and naturally start crowding out the 'bad' on their own. Like, 10 months in, I would still describe myself as someone who eats anything I want, except less, BUT if I were to look back on my food diary from 10 months ago versus today, I bet that what I wanted 10 months ago and what I want now are different, only it happened so gradually that I didn't notice the change as it was happening. And 10 months isn't much in the scheme of things, so even at a 50 BMI your sister's got time to make evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, changes.

    Best of luck to you both!

    There's actual evidence, not just anecdote, to support that serving food on a 10" plate vs a traditional 12" dinner plate actually reduced the caloric amount actually eaten. However, going smaller than that didn't.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe87yDvRyQ8

    That said, if the majority of the problem is reliance on pre-packaged boxed food items, whether it's frozen or fast food, portion size is determined by what's put in the box, and the plate size strategy becomes null. But you're correct that the entirety of her diet does not need to drastically change, if at all. I provided examples of specific swaps that could potentially take place slowly over time. But as an example of portion control, if I suggested the choice to eat a whole rotisserie chicken or 4 pieces of fried chicken: 1 leg, 1 thigh, 1 breast, 1 wing = 1/2 chicken (I know she doesn't like chicken, but it's just easier to compare as an example), assuming calories being equal, it's up to the individual to say what they'd feel more satisfied with. On the one hand, they get to eat twice as many pieces with the rotisserie vs only one. On the other hand, if they love fried food, they might just choose 4 pieces of chicken. And that's perfectly fine too. Either way, there's a calorie reduction as opposed to eating a whole fried chicken.

    And yes, there are definitely studies that support eating at the dinner table vs watching tv as a predictor for risk of obesity: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3663732/ - never mind that it was an adolescent study, it's applicable to all ages since dietary meal patterns are usually integrated in early childhood.

    Don't worry about "woo" reactions. I get them regularly and I barely even pay attention to them anyway :wink:

    Yes good point of course. I'll only add that if her preference is, say, for fish fingers or something that comes frozen in a box but not portioned into a meal-sized serving, the difference of whipping out 8 versus 10 fish fingers is significant.

    Nice to know there's real evidence about portion and plate sizing stuff though. I've seen it in the form of BBC documentaries that seem to support the idea but they don't name their sources (or maybe they do in a web supplement but I've never looked).
  • bmeadows380
    bmeadows380 Posts: 2,981 Member
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    @ZoneFive I didn't see your post right before mine, but I'm glad it helped! I was hearing the other formulas and knew that getting 3000+ calories as my maintance couldn't possibly be right, but I wasn't sure where the disconnect was, either :)


    @HDBKLM You've got a lot of good advice; I won't woo you :)

    I am trying to get her used to a deficit for now because with her height, she's not going to have nearly the range I did when I started (I'm 5'8"; she's petite. I'm solidly built with a large frame - think raw boned Swedish woman from the cliched pioneer movies, while she's smaller though still stout; she's more like the short, robust English farmer's wife you'd see in the old regency era movies lol) But I'm very much trying to get her to see that she can eat a much larger variety than she thinks she can; I don't her thinking in terms of "I can't have this" or "that's off limits"; I want her to think in terms of "is this worth the calories," or better yet "I really want this, but lets eat a smaller portion" and know how to be accurate with that smaller portion and not just eyeballing it. And it will be difficult with my mother as she lives with my parents and my mom's cooking; mom thinks very much in terms of "you can't have that" and its been an uphill battle to get her to realize it's not a matte of 'can't'; its a matter of portion size and is it worth it. That and getting mom to be accurate in what she's actually putting into her food.......(like putting 1/2 a stick of butter in her cooked apples and not telling me........)

    At this point, its just making her aware of what an actual serving size is. And as Anubis said, I'm also working with her on trying to curb the mindless eating, which is more of her downfall than even portions sizes at dinner. She's bad for eating while at the computer and in front of the tv, and will keep bags of chips and boxes of crackers or bags of candy at the couch where she lives.


    @anubis609 My sister does have PCOS and has been diagnosed as diabetic, though she also has episodes where her blood sugar drops on her. With this being the case, should I be trying to get her to move more to a lower carb diet? (slowly, of course, as I'm trying really hard not to change too much on her at once; just learning to start paying attention to the amount she its is daunting enough for her now!)


  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
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    bmeadows380 wrote: »
    @ZoneFive I didn't see your post right before mine, but I'm glad it helped! I was hearing the other formulas and knew that getting 3000+ calories as my maintance couldn't possibly be right, but I wasn't sure where the disconnect was, either :)


    @HDBKLM You've got a lot of good advice; I won't woo you :)

    I am trying to get her used to a deficit for now because with her height, she's not going to have nearly the range I did when I started (I'm 5'8"; she's petite. I'm solidly built with a large frame - think raw boned Swedish woman from the cliched pioneer movies, while she's smaller though still stout; she's more like the short, robust English farmer's wife you'd see in the old regency era movies lol) But I'm very much trying to get her to see that she can eat a much larger variety than she thinks she can; I don't her thinking in terms of "I can't have this" or "that's off limits"; I want her to think in terms of "is this worth the calories," or better yet "I really want this, but lets eat a smaller portion" and know how to be accurate with that smaller portion and not just eyeballing it. And it will be difficult with my mother as she lives with my parents and my mom's cooking; mom thinks very much in terms of "you can't have that" and its been an uphill battle to get her to realize it's not a matte of 'can't'; its a matter of portion size and is it worth it. That and getting mom to be accurate in what she's actually putting into her food.......(like putting 1/2 a stick of butter in her cooked apples and not telling me........)

    At this point, its just making her aware of what an actual serving size is. And as Anubis said, I'm also working with her on trying to curb the mindless eating, which is more of her downfall than even portions sizes at dinner. She's bad for eating while at the computer and in front of the tv, and will keep bags of chips and boxes of crackers or bags of candy at the couch where she lives.


    @anubis609 My sister does have PCOS and has been diagnosed as diabetic, though she also has episodes where her blood sugar drops on her. With this being the case, should I be trying to get her to move more to a lower carb diet? (slowly, of course, as I'm trying really hard not to change too much on her at once; just learning to start paying attention to the amount she its is daunting enough for her now!)


    While there is evidence for much more success with using a low carb diet in metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance states like PCOS and T2D, there's also evidence for improvement in those disorders with simple reductions in body fat, regardless of the diet. Reactive hypoglycemia occurs usually after meals when there's a spike in insulin from high carb food: https://www.diabetes.co.uk/reactive-hypoglycemia.html

    Note in the treatment section a reduction in total carbohydrates, especially refined/sugary carbs, is first line advice, followed by an increase/focus on protein and fiber vegetables and fruit.

    For the purposes of her being a new dieter, you're very much correct that just getting her used to being food aware will be first and foremost as a priority. But my own personal line of thought would be to eventually steer her in the direction of a low carb diet for metabolic health purposes in controlling her PCOS and glucose levels. Depending on how long she's been physiologically diabetic, the extent of beta cell damage can range from minimal to severe (requiring insulin), but in any case, PCOS tends to confound glucose tolerance in itself, so a lower carb diet would be a more successful strategy for long-term maintenance.

    And as an added plug for reasons to invest in Lyle's book, he does address it as well:

    Very Low-Carb, High Fat/Low-Carb and Ketogenic Diets`

    While the above calculations will give most readers of this book at least moderate carbohydrate intake
    recommendations, there may be situations where smaller female dieters (especially if their activity is not
    high) end up below the threshold for a VLC diet (~80-120 grams of carbohydrates per day) or others where
    a dieter deliberately chooses to lower carbohydrates to that level (i.e. PCOS/Category 3). This latter
    situation would typically be the woman with severe PCOS or obesity related insulin resistance for whom
    such diets are often profoundly beneficial. For those reasons, I want to look again at the topic of very-low
    carbohydrate/high-fat/low carbohydrate diets in more detail.

    While 80-120 g/day is the physiological cutoff for the development of nutritional ketosis, both
    popular diets and research studies typically define the diet as containing 50 grams of digestible
    carbohydrate per day. In general, these diets also tend to be higher in fat (since the day's calories have to
    come from somewhere and only so much protein can be eaten) but this is not universal. It is more than
    possible to do a very-low carbohydrate/very-low fat diet where the diet consists of almost purely protein
    (with some vegetables and essential fats). This is generally called a Protein Sparing Modified Fast or
    PSMF. While frequently surrounded by a combination of controversy, criticism, zealotry and
    misconceptions, VLC diets have both pros and cons that I want to examine.

    Perhaps the largest disadvantage of VLC diets is that many go through a roughly 3 week phase of
    feeling very fatigued as they adapt to the diet. This can be limited by ensuring sufficient intakes of sodium,
    potassium, magnesium and calcium, all of which are excreted in larger amounts. Even with sufficient
    mineral intake, many still feel bad for those few weeks as the brain shifts to using ketones for fuel. Along
    with mineral losses comes significant water loss which can cause some amount of dehydration along with
    causing a rapid drop in body weight. This is one of the reasons people think that such diets have a
    metabolic advantage and why dieters like them so much: losing several pounds of body weight in only a
    few days is very rewarding. Some women also experience depression on such diets as brain levels of
    serotonin drop. In contrast, others report feeling nearly euphoric with stable blood sugar and energy levels
    throughout the day. This is highly individual and my experience is that anyone following a ketogenic diet
    who hasn't started to feel better by week 3 probably isn't going to and the diet should be abandoned.

    Overall, people with insulin resistance seem to be the ones who feel best on ketogenic diets, at least
    after the adaptation period (and I mentioned earlier that lowered carbs/higher fat is already a better
    approach in this case). Women in Category 3 who are inactive and/or who have PCOS related insulin
    resistance often respond very positively to VLC diets. Even in the absence of weight/fat loss, health
    parameters usually improve and often these diets are found to be at least slightly superior for weight and fat
    loss, mostly due to better adherence (30). I'd add that a VLC diet combined with a reduction in
    goitrogenic foods was found to reduce the thyroid antibodies seen in the autoimmune Hashimoto's
    thyroiditis (30a). Whether this would be effective for other autoimmune conditions is unknown but, as
    women are more likely to experience Hashimoto's, a VLC diet could be worthwhile consideration.
    196

    While most of the benefits on hunger and appetite is most likely due to an increased protein intake
    (this tends to happen automatically on such diets which is another benefit), there are other potential causes.
    Stable blood sugar is one of them as falling blood sugar can stimulate hunger. The presence of ketones in
    the bloodstream may also be having some benefit. Perhaps the largest effect is that, for many people,
    carbohydrate foods may act as triggers and cause a loss of control and overeating. As these foods have to
    be eliminated on VLC diets, this is avoided. However, as I mentioned in Chapter 15, the removal of broad
    categories or even specific foods can cause adherence issues over time as cravings increase.

    This can be addressed later in the diet by finding ways to include those foods (strategies are discussed
    in Chapter 21) and often women's taste for them decrease as taste buds change (requiring about 4-6 weeks).
    I should note before continuing that, even in insulin resistant women, studies frequently find that highcarbohydrate/
    low-fat diets can be effective but only so long as they are based primarily around
    unrefined/high-fiber carbohydrates. In my experience, these aren't the types of foods most people on
    higher-carbohydrate diets tend to eat and I feel that reducing total carbohydrate intake is usually superior.
  • bmeadows380
    bmeadows380 Posts: 2,981 Member
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    okay. If one wanted to look into low carb and very low carb diets, what are the best sources for sane advice and guidance on getting started? I just recently heard the lament that MFP only counted total carbs and not net; would someone doing low carb have to mentally make that calculation difference here?
  • concordancia
    concordancia Posts: 5,320 Member
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    bmeadows380 wrote: »
    okay. If one wanted to look into low carb and very low carb diets, what are the best sources for sane advice and guidance on getting started? I just recently heard the lament that MFP only counted total carbs and not net; would someone doing low carb have to mentally make that calculation difference here?

    Not necessarily. You could set yourself separate carb and fiber goals. I generally get 15-20g of fiber and I generally eat under 60 carbs. I could make it complicated and say that is 45 net carbs, or I can just meet the two goals. Net carbs are only important on a per meal basis for insulin dependent diabetics.

    I had a dietician recently tell me that you can only subtract fiber if there is more than 5g. She said a lot of things that she didn't explain, I think she was trying to get around people reaching for highly processed foods with added fiber for marketing net carbs?
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
    edited March 2018
    Options
    As for MFP's carb counts, it doesn't count net carbs, but it's simple subtraction where total carbs - fiber = net carbs.

    If you or your sister prefer to use an app that actually will calculate it for you, cron-o-meter actually does a superior job at calculating not only net carbs and tailoring macros, but it will also track as many micronutrients as it recognizes in its database: https://cronometer.com

    Also, since there are a lot of us here who trend low/lower carb, you can ask direct questions in this thread about any information you might want to know.

    The basic premise for [very] low carb/ketogenic diets is that total net carbs are ~50g or less. Protein is calculated to body weight or lbm if known, but on keto protein should err on the higher side to spare lean mass loss. And dietary fat fills up the rest of the calories - caveat: this is variable and should not be done to excess.

    A good rule I prefer to follow for keeping it as simple as possible (Ted Naiman's approach) is that carbs + fat grams should be less than or equal to protein grams; e.g. 50g carbs + 100g fat = 150+ g of protein. It minimizes excessive fat and/or carbs, and places direct focus on protein.

    Acceptable low carb fruits: berries, avocados. They have a lot of fiber per serving compared to other fruits. Be aware of the fat content in avocados.

    Acceptable low carb vegetables: any green leafy vegetable grown above ground. Ground veggies like tubers, carrots, etc tend to have a lot of starch and little fiber.

    Carbs should be fiber sources.

    Protein: preferably animal protein, but plant based sources like tofu/tempeh/soy can be used along with chia and flax seeds, and others of that nature.

    Fat: preferably non-vegetable oil sources, so use things like natural fat from lard, butter, olive oil, coconut oil, etc but used sparingly for cooking purposes.

    In the obese dieter: body fat also contributes to a good portion of the fat macro.

    Electrolytes: on a low carb diet, sodium, potassium, magnesium, and calcium needs increase, so they will be exceeding MFP's regular suggestion because "keto flu" is the period of adaptation where the body is switching fuel sources, and as it does that, it will expel electrolytes during water dumps, so fatigue/lethargy/brain fog sets in. Sodium is priority over the others, however magnesium and potassium are equally important after that. Supplements for potassium can be taken, but somewhat not necessary if you can just use lite salt or potassium chloride. Magnesium may need supplementation, but usually not needed unless cramping or disturbed sleep occur.

    ETA: Do not worry about being in ketosis .. a lot of keto/low carb dieters get hung up on this concept and it's absolutely unnecessary to care about them. They're just a consequence of low carbs and fat loss. That's it.

    Resources:

    My first and foremost recommendation is Lyle's ketogenic diet book, but it's also roughly 400 pages and 600 references of almost clinical writing, so it's not entertaining, but it is highly educational from a nutritional and biochemistry standpoint: https://store.bodyrecomposition.com/product/ketogenic-diet/; https://bodyrecomposition.com/?s=keto

    For an easy digestible version of higher protein, moderate fat, low carb diets, Dr. Ted Naiman treats his diabetic/obese patients with this style of diet with much success: http://burnfatnotsugar.com (also on facebook)

    Equally as informative with ever growing research is Optimising Nutrition (also a public facebook group): https://optimisingnutrition.com/2015/04/06/optimal-foods-for-blood-sugar-regulation-and-nutritoinal-ketosis/

    The second best source, that is loosely based off Lyle's work as well as actual sound evidence based research is Ketogains (also a closed group on facebook): https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index; ketogains.com

    Another evidence based source that promotes evidence based research but aimed more for metabolic health and wellness as opposed to pure aesthetic body composition is Keto Saved Me Group (on facebook) - I'm also an admin there, but I'm also very terrible at my admin duties there, but I'll chime in when I need to: http://www.ketosavedme.com

    The MFP low carb group is also another source and I'm kind of in there at times - but some of the threads follow the ultra high fat, low carb, low protein that's typical of what people think low carb/keto is: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/394-low-carber-daily-forum-the-lcd-group
  • HDBKLM
    HDBKLM Posts: 466 Member
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    bmeadows380 wrote: »
    okay. If one wanted to look into low carb and very low carb diets, what are the best sources for sane advice and guidance on getting started? I just recently heard the lament that MFP only counted total carbs and not net; would someone doing low carb have to mentally make that calculation difference here?
    In my MFP settings I swapped sugar for fibre in the main window that displays macros, and put the fibre just to the right of the carbs so I can do the subtraction of carbs - fibre = net carbs automatically. Would that help?
  • bmeadows380
    bmeadows380 Posts: 2,981 Member
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    thank you! I was also wondering what places would be good to get reasonable meal plan ideas for low carb. there are so many sites out there devoted to keto and low carb and paleo, but there is also so much woo that it's hard to be sure of some of these food blogs!


    We'll see if my sister sticks this out or not. This week to get her started, I was packing her lunch when I packed mine, and entering the MFP counts. But I'm in the office today on storm watch duty and won't be home while she's off today. So I told her last night she needed to open the app and start entering food herself. She was reluctant to do it; her comment was "I'll just start watching how much I'm eating" which to me was "I don't like this and want to be able to eat more" and "that's too much work". She did do it, though, and I showed her how to find things and how to complete her diary, but we'll see if she sticks with it today. She commented that she was hungry after lunch, and I did tell her she could add more calories to lunch or snacks as long as she ate a lighter dinner and that she just needed to experiment around with her calorie spread and food types to find what works for her and helps her feel satiated. I did tell her that losing weight and feeling better does happen and vindicates the effort, but she then stated that she still wasn't sure it was worth it.

    Now trying this was all her idea on Monday; she's the one who came to me and asked for help to get started and I haven't been saying a single word to her about losing weight and keeping my thoughts to myself. I think, though, that the fact that for the first time in our lives, I'm not only wearing smaller sizes than her, I'm also at her weight or a little lower hit her hard, as well as the fact that our brother is also losing a ton of weight after weight loss surgery; she used to be the lightest of all of us, but she's quickly becoming the heaviest, and she doesn't like that one bit. But after trying it for 4 days, she's not liking the cut in her portion sizes or telling herself she can't just eat what she wants, how much she wants, whenever she wants, so I don't know if she's going to stick to it or not. My money's on the not, I'm afraid, even though I hope against all hope that she keeps up with it as her health is in shambles and losing weight would help her in so many areas from her PCOS to her diabetes to her swollen ankles and achy joints and high blood pressure and high cholesterol and breathing issues......

    I'll keep the low carb options as a back up; I don't know if it might be easier for her to just count carbs or not. It's a hard reality, but the truth is, she's lazy and doesn't like putting effort into anything she deems to be "hard". She wants a quick fix usually, so I was surprised she wanted to try the calorie counting and I did warn her that it wasn't easy and that she'd have to be firm with herself at first but that her body would adjust. My fear on the just counting carbs, though, is that if she doesn't also keep an eye on calories, she's just going to over-indulge on the low carb items, especially as she'd go for ham and hot dogs over lean chicken and fish, and that it wouldn't help her in the long run.



    I myself have been trying to get a little lower carb, though I'm not really sure if it is completely necessary for me or not. Even though I have cut out potatoes and breads and corn except for rare indulgences, I still seem to be routinely eating around 45% carbs daily. My limit is set to 135g, but I'm always 30-75g over that each day, even if I subtract fiber intake. I struggle to get more fat in, and I'm concerned about increasing the fat because it seems to mess up my "pipes" which I have problems with anyway.

    I was diagnosed with PCOS and insulin resistance 13 years ago and was immediately put on the highest dose of metformin they could give, even though my fasting blood sugar levels and A1C were fine, as that was the standard practice for PCOS treatment then. My new PCP recently asked me if I thought I was still insulin resistant since I've lost 100 lbs, but I told her she'd have to order the blood work and tell me. I've never had any trouble with my blood sugar; the last time it was checked, my fasting was 91, and that was after barely 8 hours of fasting, the minimum you could do it and get the test. For a while last year, I was tracking my blood sugar after some meals, but it never spiked out of normal range for me, even after heavy carb meals, so I quit checking on it, especially when I took into account the 20% tolerance some models could get. And that was back when I was still well above 300 lbs.

    My PCP recently agreed to cut my metformin dosage in half. I'll have her do another round of bloodwork in July and specifically have her test for insulin resistance. If I still show as being resistant, then I'll try going low carb for a few months and see if that along with more weight loss helps without bumping the medication back up.
  • HDBKLM
    HDBKLM Posts: 466 Member
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    bmeadows380 wrote: »
    We'll see if my sister sticks this out or not. This week to get her started, I was packing her lunch when I packed mine, and entering the MFP counts. But I'm in the office today on storm watch duty and won't be home while she's off today. So I told her last night she needed to open the app and start entering food herself. She was reluctant to do it; her comment was "I'll just start watching how much I'm eating" which to me was "I don't like this and want to be able to eat more" and "that's too much work". She did do it, though, and I showed her how to find things and how to complete her diary, but we'll see if she sticks with it today. She commented that she was hungry after lunch, and I did tell her she could add more calories to lunch or snacks as long as she ate a lighter dinner and that she just needed to experiment around with her calorie spread and food types to find what works for her and helps her feel satiated. I did tell her that losing weight and feeling better does happen and vindicates the effort, but she then stated that she still wasn't sure it was worth it.

    Now trying this was all her idea on Monday; she's the one who came to me and asked for help to get started and I haven't been saying a single word to her about losing weight and keeping my thoughts to myself. I think, though, that the fact that for the first time in our lives, I'm not only wearing smaller sizes than her, I'm also at her weight or a little lower hit her hard, as well as the fact that our brother is also losing a ton of weight after weight loss surgery; she used to be the lightest of all of us, but she's quickly becoming the heaviest, and she doesn't like that one bit. But after trying it for 4 days, she's not liking the cut in her portion sizes or telling herself she can't just eat what she wants, how much she wants, whenever she wants, so I don't know if she's going to stick to it or not. My money's on the not, I'm afraid, even though I hope against all hope that she keeps up with it as her health is in shambles and losing weight would help her in so many areas from her PCOS to her diabetes to her swollen ankles and achy joints and high blood pressure and high cholesterol and breathing issues......

    That sounds really discouraging about your sister resisting the process even though she's the one who suggested it, thus getting you to put in a bunch of effort to help get her off the ground. I wonder if it would help if you were to direct her toward the MFP boards? I remember when I started I spent a lot of time going through threads like 'What nobody tells you about losing weight', 'What's your most recent NSV?', etc. from beginning to end, and I felt like it really helped get me in the right headspace. Maybe your sister would take advice from a 'community of strangers' better than from her sister—not because you're doing anything wrong of course, just because of general sibling baggage?
  • alteredsteve175
    alteredsteve175 Posts: 2,718 Member
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    HDBKLM wrote: »
    bmeadows380 wrote: »
    okay. If one wanted to look into low carb and very low carb diets, what are the best sources for sane advice and guidance on getting started? I just recently heard the lament that MFP only counted total carbs and not net; would someone doing low carb have to mentally make that calculation difference here?
    In my MFP settings I swapped sugar for fibre in the main window that displays macros, and put the fibre just to the right of the carbs so I can do the subtraction of carbs - fibre = net carbs automatically. Would that help?

    @bmeadows380 - There's an add-in for the MFP app that calculates net carbs.

    https://cavemanketo.com/configuring-mfp/

    I've used it for several months now and it works well.
  • bmeadows380
    bmeadows380 Posts: 2,981 Member
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    HDBKLM wrote: »
    That sounds really discouraging about your sister resisting the process even though she's the one who suggested it, thus getting you to put in a bunch of effort to help get her off the ground. I wonder if it would help if you were to direct her toward the MFP boards? I remember when I started I spent a lot of time going through threads like 'What nobody tells you about losing weight', 'What's your most recent NSV?', etc. from beginning to end, and I felt like it really helped get me in the right headspace. Maybe your sister would take advice from a 'community of strangers' better than from her sister—not because you're doing anything wrong of course, just because of general sibling baggage?

    It is discouraging :( But I was afraid this would happen - she'd be all excited to try until she saw the effort needed and the fact she'd have to have some willpower and tell herself no. I"ll try to encourage her to read the forums; perhaps if she can make some friends it will help?


    @alteredstates175 Thank you! I'll note that! :)

    The good news is that while I'm sitting here rather bored, waiting for the snowstorm to start or for them to release me to go home, I did some searching for low carb recipes and planned out next week's menu. While the recipes don't really turn out to be very low carb, in my thoughts, when I laid out my meals for the week and saw the final totals, I was very pleased to see the carb counts for almost every day but 1 ending in green with a good boost in fiber, protein, and fats.

    so at least my last several hours here wasn't a complete waste of time! lol
  • alteredsteve175
    alteredsteve175 Posts: 2,718 Member
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    alteredstates175 wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    But that’s just a small blip in the larger part of actual energy intake/output. Adjust accordingly and make small adjustments at a time to find your own sweet spot. Once you find a downward trend happening that still allows you to eat comfortably, you’re on the right track. It might take a while so patience will be your friend.

    Was thinking of setting the target at 1800 and then exceeding that some days. Is a 10% cut too drastic? Or am I still too impatient? Thanks for your input.

    Started a 5/2 plan on or about 21 Feb. 1800 calories per day weekdays - 2500 calories per day on weekends for refeeds (with more carbs). Eating back some exercise calories as well. Seems to be working - the trend line on Libra is downward, but the loss is slow.

    Today is 4 1/2 weeks on this regimen. Would another diet break be advisable in a week or two?

    As always, thanks to all for your sage advice.



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