Of refeeds and diet breaks
Replies
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dancefit2015 wrote: »I feel like I've seen this before somewhere but can you experience DOMS more from being in a calorie deficit? I know protein plays a big role too but I'm just wondering if it's still an issue with enough protein even while in a cal deficit? My mom, friend, and I will do the same workouts and I will be the only one that can hardly walk for days later. I think they are probably getting more protein & calories than me.
I'm barely seeing this now and haven't caught up so if it's addressed already, I'll edit, but for the most part DOMS and to a worse extent, rhabdomyolysis, is a combination of overly intense activity beyond neuromuscular adaptation, rate of recovery, and substrate availability for repair.
So, in a deficit, you're already in an impaired recovery state. To counteract that, the better recommendation is to get even more protein than you would on maintenance to compensate. At the same time, in a deficit, going too hard in workouts is also no bueno. You'll just be tearing away at skeletal tissue instead of fat. You want to stimulate the muscles, not annihilate them.
Edit: I had a feeling you might have been referring to crossfit. I'm going to say crossfit style of workouts are hardly conducive to anyone in even a moderate deficit. This is one of those activities that you NEED eat to fuel/recover from your workouts simply because the sheer amount of intensity demanded for WODs are known to actually destroy people. And by destroy, I mean actual muscle and tendon tears. If you're getting a very low amount of protein and energy in the day, doing crossfit isn't going to be doing any favors. I don't have anything against xfit, I just think it really could be implemented better as a program, especially for beginners.VintageFeline wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »Okay so more sleep, more protein, possibly scale down strength training.
It was 55 reps of squats with 6lb ball... so I don't know if the exercise is really the main issue.
As a vegetarian/borderline vegan, I am wondering if I should take an amino acid supplement along with my protein drink so make sure I'm getting all of the amino acids I need.
Thank you so much for your advice!
Total calories? Protein grams? Other than animal products are you restricting anything else? Eggs, milk, yogurt, cheese? how quickly did you ramp up to 55 squats?
My goal is 1,700 cal at a 500 cal deficit/day. My weekly calories are always either at or above my goal. Yesterday I managed 100g protein, but my average for the week before yesterday was about 55/day. I don't eat many dairy products or eggs, but I don't restrict them either.
Well I have been doing weighted squats for months, snatches, front/back squats, few air squats here and there. So doing 55 reps with a 6lb ball doesn't sound like something that could make me so sore. I did about 5 reps at a time before shaking out my legs and doing another 5. And this is just one example. I feel like every other workout I do makes me ridiculously sore, no matter how light I go.
Does anyone take a BCAA supplement? Could this be helpful?
Purely as an energy source, expensive energy source.
It has been shown in recent studies to not give any extra benefit to lifting and the normal way it's used and promoted.
Now - you being so low in protein, might be of assistance.
For example, if your diet has you just totally lacking on some amino acids or very short - that will effect usage of the others, the ratio between them for usage is interesting - the lowest common denominator method basically - one very low amino acid could prevent usage of the others.
At least more recent studies have shown the time window for that usage is decently long, if you have a mix of proteins through the day - but a real lack of variety could be bad still.
So if BCAA's provided what you are otherwise short on - useful.
If not - then not worth it.
Thank you very much
Maybe I could try it out and see if I notice a difference.
Personally I'd work on getting my protein up from food first. Not to muddy the assessment waters with supplements that may or may not be doing something when you have changed another variable. Plus, going to be much easier to get what you need without the use of supplements.
+1 Personally, I wouldn't waste the time and money on BCAAs. Maybe get a plant based protein powder.
ETA: I should have read all the way before posting. I see Nony recommended a good plant based protein source. I also agree completely with anubis's points. Often, when you add volume, you reduce weight and increase reps. This fairly typical of Crossfit. This causes the use of both Type 1 an Type 2 muscle fibers and engages the smaller muscles and tendons more so than higher weight/ lower rep. That can and will cause DOMS.
I use Orgain as a vegan protein supplement. Only 21g/serving so I am trying to get myself to drink two/day.
And on CrossFit, I have a free membership for CF, I have been doing it on and off since I was 14. I enjoy the variety, the Oly lifts, rope climbs, the group atmosphere. If I really scale down the workouts to a level better suited for me while in a deficit, maybe I could avoid getting DOMS?1 -
Again, thank you all for your help, you guys rock
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dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »I feel like I've seen this before somewhere but can you experience DOMS more from being in a calorie deficit? I know protein plays a big role too but I'm just wondering if it's still an issue with enough protein even while in a cal deficit? My mom, friend, and I will do the same workouts and I will be the only one that can hardly walk for days later. I think they are probably getting more protein & calories than me.
I'm barely seeing this now and haven't caught up so if it's addressed already, I'll edit, but for the most part DOMS and to a worse extent, rhabdomyolysis, is a combination of overly intense activity beyond neuromuscular adaptation, rate of recovery, and substrate availability for repair.
So, in a deficit, you're already in an impaired recovery state. To counteract that, the better recommendation is to get even more protein than you would on maintenance to compensate. At the same time, in a deficit, going too hard in workouts is also no bueno. You'll just be tearing away at skeletal tissue instead of fat. You want to stimulate the muscles, not annihilate them.
Edit: I had a feeling you might have been referring to crossfit. I'm going to say crossfit style of workouts are hardly conducive to anyone in even a moderate deficit. This is one of those activities that you NEED eat to fuel/recover from your workouts simply because the sheer amount of intensity demanded for WODs are known to actually destroy people. And by destroy, I mean actual muscle and tendon tears. If you're getting a very low amount of protein and energy in the day, doing crossfit isn't going to be doing any favors. I don't have anything against xfit, I just think it really could be implemented better as a program, especially for beginners.VintageFeline wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »Okay so more sleep, more protein, possibly scale down strength training.
It was 55 reps of squats with 6lb ball... so I don't know if the exercise is really the main issue.
As a vegetarian/borderline vegan, I am wondering if I should take an amino acid supplement along with my protein drink so make sure I'm getting all of the amino acids I need.
Thank you so much for your advice!
Total calories? Protein grams? Other than animal products are you restricting anything else? Eggs, milk, yogurt, cheese? how quickly did you ramp up to 55 squats?
My goal is 1,700 cal at a 500 cal deficit/day. My weekly calories are always either at or above my goal. Yesterday I managed 100g protein, but my average for the week before yesterday was about 55/day. I don't eat many dairy products or eggs, but I don't restrict them either.
Well I have been doing weighted squats for months, snatches, front/back squats, few air squats here and there. So doing 55 reps with a 6lb ball doesn't sound like something that could make me so sore. I did about 5 reps at a time before shaking out my legs and doing another 5. And this is just one example. I feel like every other workout I do makes me ridiculously sore, no matter how light I go.
Does anyone take a BCAA supplement? Could this be helpful?
Purely as an energy source, expensive energy source.
It has been shown in recent studies to not give any extra benefit to lifting and the normal way it's used and promoted.
Now - you being so low in protein, might be of assistance.
For example, if your diet has you just totally lacking on some amino acids or very short - that will effect usage of the others, the ratio between them for usage is interesting - the lowest common denominator method basically - one very low amino acid could prevent usage of the others.
At least more recent studies have shown the time window for that usage is decently long, if you have a mix of proteins through the day - but a real lack of variety could be bad still.
So if BCAA's provided what you are otherwise short on - useful.
If not - then not worth it.
Thank you very much Maybe I could try it out and see if I notice a difference.
Personally I'd work on getting my protein up from food first. Not to muddy the assessment waters with supplements that may or may not be doing something when you have changed another variable. Plus, going to be much easier to get what you need without the use of supplements.
+1 Personally, I wouldn't waste the time and money on BCAAs. Maybe get a plant based protein powder.
ETA: I should have read all the way before posting. I see Nony recommended a good plant based protein source. I also agree completely with anubis's points. Often, when you add volume, you reduce weight and increase reps. This fairly typical of Crossfit. This causes the use of both Type 1 an Type 2 muscle fibers and engages the smaller muscles and tendons more so than higher weight/ lower rep. That can and will cause DOMS.
I use Orgain as a vegan protein supplement. Only 21g/serving so I am trying to get myself to drink two/day.
And on CrossFit, I have a free membership for CF, I have been doing it on and off since I was 14. I enjoy the variety, the Oly lifts, rope climbs, the group atmosphere. If I really scale down the workouts to a level better suited for me while in a deficit, maybe I could avoid getting DOMS?
Sorry if I missed that about the Orgain if it was earlier in the thread. Possibly scaling down will help. The only way to know is experiment. I think getting the protein up would help too. I'd be inclined to only change one thing at a time. I'd get the protein up to 1to 1.2 grams per lb of lbm for a week or 2 and see if that helps. If not, you always have the option of scaling back the difficulty on the wod.1 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »I feel like I've seen this before somewhere but can you experience DOMS more from being in a calorie deficit? I know protein plays a big role too but I'm just wondering if it's still an issue with enough protein even while in a cal deficit? My mom, friend, and I will do the same workouts and I will be the only one that can hardly walk for days later. I think they are probably getting more protein & calories than me.
I'm barely seeing this now and haven't caught up so if it's addressed already, I'll edit, but for the most part DOMS and to a worse extent, rhabdomyolysis, is a combination of overly intense activity beyond neuromuscular adaptation, rate of recovery, and substrate availability for repair.
So, in a deficit, you're already in an impaired recovery state. To counteract that, the better recommendation is to get even more protein than you would on maintenance to compensate. At the same time, in a deficit, going too hard in workouts is also no bueno. You'll just be tearing away at skeletal tissue instead of fat. You want to stimulate the muscles, not annihilate them.
Edit: I had a feeling you might have been referring to crossfit. I'm going to say crossfit style of workouts are hardly conducive to anyone in even a moderate deficit. This is one of those activities that you NEED eat to fuel/recover from your workouts simply because the sheer amount of intensity demanded for WODs are known to actually destroy people. And by destroy, I mean actual muscle and tendon tears. If you're getting a very low amount of protein and energy in the day, doing crossfit isn't going to be doing any favors. I don't have anything against xfit, I just think it really could be implemented better as a program, especially for beginners.VintageFeline wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »Okay so more sleep, more protein, possibly scale down strength training.
It was 55 reps of squats with 6lb ball... so I don't know if the exercise is really the main issue.
As a vegetarian/borderline vegan, I am wondering if I should take an amino acid supplement along with my protein drink so make sure I'm getting all of the amino acids I need.
Thank you so much for your advice!
Total calories? Protein grams? Other than animal products are you restricting anything else? Eggs, milk, yogurt, cheese? how quickly did you ramp up to 55 squats?
My goal is 1,700 cal at a 500 cal deficit/day. My weekly calories are always either at or above my goal. Yesterday I managed 100g protein, but my average for the week before yesterday was about 55/day. I don't eat many dairy products or eggs, but I don't restrict them either.
Well I have been doing weighted squats for months, snatches, front/back squats, few air squats here and there. So doing 55 reps with a 6lb ball doesn't sound like something that could make me so sore. I did about 5 reps at a time before shaking out my legs and doing another 5. And this is just one example. I feel like every other workout I do makes me ridiculously sore, no matter how light I go.
Does anyone take a BCAA supplement? Could this be helpful?
Purely as an energy source, expensive energy source.
It has been shown in recent studies to not give any extra benefit to lifting and the normal way it's used and promoted.
Now - you being so low in protein, might be of assistance.
For example, if your diet has you just totally lacking on some amino acids or very short - that will effect usage of the others, the ratio between them for usage is interesting - the lowest common denominator method basically - one very low amino acid could prevent usage of the others.
At least more recent studies have shown the time window for that usage is decently long, if you have a mix of proteins through the day - but a real lack of variety could be bad still.
So if BCAA's provided what you are otherwise short on - useful.
If not - then not worth it.
Thank you very much Maybe I could try it out and see if I notice a difference.
Personally I'd work on getting my protein up from food first. Not to muddy the assessment waters with supplements that may or may not be doing something when you have changed another variable. Plus, going to be much easier to get what you need without the use of supplements.
+1 Personally, I wouldn't waste the time and money on BCAAs. Maybe get a plant based protein powder.
ETA: I should have read all the way before posting. I see Nony recommended a good plant based protein source. I also agree completely with anubis's points. Often, when you add volume, you reduce weight and increase reps. This fairly typical of Crossfit. This causes the use of both Type 1 an Type 2 muscle fibers and engages the smaller muscles and tendons more so than higher weight/ lower rep. That can and will cause DOMS.
I use Orgain as a vegan protein supplement. Only 21g/serving so I am trying to get myself to drink two/day.
And on CrossFit, I have a free membership for CF, I have been doing it on and off since I was 14. I enjoy the variety, the Oly lifts, rope climbs, the group atmosphere. If I really scale down the workouts to a level better suited for me while in a deficit, maybe I could avoid getting DOMS?
Sorry if I missed that about the Orgain if it was earlier in the thread. Possibly scaling down will help. The only way to know is experiment. I think getting the protein up would help too. I'd be inclined to only change one thing at a time. I'd get the protein up to 1to 1.2 grams per lb of lbm for a week or 2 and see if that helps. If not, you always have the option of scaling back the difficulty on the wod.
Okay, sounds like a good plan! I'm getting closer and closer to that protein goal so hopefully I'll start feeling a difference in the next few weeks.3 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »I feel like I've seen this before somewhere but can you experience DOMS more from being in a calorie deficit? I know protein plays a big role too but I'm just wondering if it's still an issue with enough protein even while in a cal deficit? My mom, friend, and I will do the same workouts and I will be the only one that can hardly walk for days later. I think they are probably getting more protein & calories than me.
I'm barely seeing this now and haven't caught up so if it's addressed already, I'll edit, but for the most part DOMS and to a worse extent, rhabdomyolysis, is a combination of overly intense activity beyond neuromuscular adaptation, rate of recovery, and substrate availability for repair.
So, in a deficit, you're already in an impaired recovery state. To counteract that, the better recommendation is to get even more protein than you would on maintenance to compensate. At the same time, in a deficit, going too hard in workouts is also no bueno. You'll just be tearing away at skeletal tissue instead of fat. You want to stimulate the muscles, not annihilate them.
Edit: I had a feeling you might have been referring to crossfit. I'm going to say crossfit style of workouts are hardly conducive to anyone in even a moderate deficit. This is one of those activities that you NEED eat to fuel/recover from your workouts simply because the sheer amount of intensity demanded for WODs are known to actually destroy people. And by destroy, I mean actual muscle and tendon tears. If you're getting a very low amount of protein and energy in the day, doing crossfit isn't going to be doing any favors. I don't have anything against xfit, I just think it really could be implemented better as a program, especially for beginners.VintageFeline wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »Okay so more sleep, more protein, possibly scale down strength training.
It was 55 reps of squats with 6lb ball... so I don't know if the exercise is really the main issue.
As a vegetarian/borderline vegan, I am wondering if I should take an amino acid supplement along with my protein drink so make sure I'm getting all of the amino acids I need.
Thank you so much for your advice!
Total calories? Protein grams? Other than animal products are you restricting anything else? Eggs, milk, yogurt, cheese? how quickly did you ramp up to 55 squats?
My goal is 1,700 cal at a 500 cal deficit/day. My weekly calories are always either at or above my goal. Yesterday I managed 100g protein, but my average for the week before yesterday was about 55/day. I don't eat many dairy products or eggs, but I don't restrict them either.
Well I have been doing weighted squats for months, snatches, front/back squats, few air squats here and there. So doing 55 reps with a 6lb ball doesn't sound like something that could make me so sore. I did about 5 reps at a time before shaking out my legs and doing another 5. And this is just one example. I feel like every other workout I do makes me ridiculously sore, no matter how light I go.
Does anyone take a BCAA supplement? Could this be helpful?
Purely as an energy source, expensive energy source.
It has been shown in recent studies to not give any extra benefit to lifting and the normal way it's used and promoted.
Now - you being so low in protein, might be of assistance.
For example, if your diet has you just totally lacking on some amino acids or very short - that will effect usage of the others, the ratio between them for usage is interesting - the lowest common denominator method basically - one very low amino acid could prevent usage of the others.
At least more recent studies have shown the time window for that usage is decently long, if you have a mix of proteins through the day - but a real lack of variety could be bad still.
So if BCAA's provided what you are otherwise short on - useful.
If not - then not worth it.
Thank you very much Maybe I could try it out and see if I notice a difference.
Personally I'd work on getting my protein up from food first. Not to muddy the assessment waters with supplements that may or may not be doing something when you have changed another variable. Plus, going to be much easier to get what you need without the use of supplements.
+1 Personally, I wouldn't waste the time and money on BCAAs. Maybe get a plant based protein powder.
ETA: I should have read all the way before posting. I see Nony recommended a good plant based protein source. I also agree completely with anubis's points. Often, when you add volume, you reduce weight and increase reps. This fairly typical of Crossfit. This causes the use of both Type 1 an Type 2 muscle fibers and engages the smaller muscles and tendons more so than higher weight/ lower rep. That can and will cause DOMS.
I use Orgain as a vegan protein supplement. Only 21g/serving so I am trying to get myself to drink two/day.
And on CrossFit, I have a free membership for CF, I have been doing it on and off since I was 14. I enjoy the variety, the Oly lifts, rope climbs, the group atmosphere. If I really scale down the workouts to a level better suited for me while in a deficit, maybe I could avoid getting DOMS?
Sorry if I missed that about the Orgain if it was earlier in the thread. Possibly scaling down will help. The only way to know is experiment. I think getting the protein up would help too. I'd be inclined to only change one thing at a time. I'd get the protein up to 1to 1.2 grams per lb of lbm for a week or 2 and see if that helps. If not, you always have the option of scaling back the difficulty on the wod.
Okay, sounds like a good plan! I'm getting closer and closer to that protein goal so hopefully I'll start feeling a difference in the next few weeks.
Yep, just keep trying to build it up. It takes a bit of thought and regigging, but as a fellow vege, I can confirm it can be done! And once you get there, you will wonder how you ever lived without all that lovely, lovely protein 2 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »I feel like I've seen this before somewhere but can you experience DOMS more from being in a calorie deficit? I know protein plays a big role too but I'm just wondering if it's still an issue with enough protein even while in a cal deficit? My mom, friend, and I will do the same workouts and I will be the only one that can hardly walk for days later. I think they are probably getting more protein & calories than me.
I'm barely seeing this now and haven't caught up so if it's addressed already, I'll edit, but for the most part DOMS and to a worse extent, rhabdomyolysis, is a combination of overly intense activity beyond neuromuscular adaptation, rate of recovery, and substrate availability for repair.
So, in a deficit, you're already in an impaired recovery state. To counteract that, the better recommendation is to get even more protein than you would on maintenance to compensate. At the same time, in a deficit, going too hard in workouts is also no bueno. You'll just be tearing away at skeletal tissue instead of fat. You want to stimulate the muscles, not annihilate them.
Edit: I had a feeling you might have been referring to crossfit. I'm going to say crossfit style of workouts are hardly conducive to anyone in even a moderate deficit. This is one of those activities that you NEED eat to fuel/recover from your workouts simply because the sheer amount of intensity demanded for WODs are known to actually destroy people. And by destroy, I mean actual muscle and tendon tears. If you're getting a very low amount of protein and energy in the day, doing crossfit isn't going to be doing any favors. I don't have anything against xfit, I just think it really could be implemented better as a program, especially for beginners.VintageFeline wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »Okay so more sleep, more protein, possibly scale down strength training.
It was 55 reps of squats with 6lb ball... so I don't know if the exercise is really the main issue.
As a vegetarian/borderline vegan, I am wondering if I should take an amino acid supplement along with my protein drink so make sure I'm getting all of the amino acids I need.
Thank you so much for your advice!
Total calories? Protein grams? Other than animal products are you restricting anything else? Eggs, milk, yogurt, cheese? how quickly did you ramp up to 55 squats?
My goal is 1,700 cal at a 500 cal deficit/day. My weekly calories are always either at or above my goal. Yesterday I managed 100g protein, but my average for the week before yesterday was about 55/day. I don't eat many dairy products or eggs, but I don't restrict them either.
Well I have been doing weighted squats for months, snatches, front/back squats, few air squats here and there. So doing 55 reps with a 6lb ball doesn't sound like something that could make me so sore. I did about 5 reps at a time before shaking out my legs and doing another 5. And this is just one example. I feel like every other workout I do makes me ridiculously sore, no matter how light I go.
Does anyone take a BCAA supplement? Could this be helpful?
Purely as an energy source, expensive energy source.
It has been shown in recent studies to not give any extra benefit to lifting and the normal way it's used and promoted.
Now - you being so low in protein, might be of assistance.
For example, if your diet has you just totally lacking on some amino acids or very short - that will effect usage of the others, the ratio between them for usage is interesting - the lowest common denominator method basically - one very low amino acid could prevent usage of the others.
At least more recent studies have shown the time window for that usage is decently long, if you have a mix of proteins through the day - but a real lack of variety could be bad still.
So if BCAA's provided what you are otherwise short on - useful.
If not - then not worth it.
Thank you very much Maybe I could try it out and see if I notice a difference.
Personally I'd work on getting my protein up from food first. Not to muddy the assessment waters with supplements that may or may not be doing something when you have changed another variable. Plus, going to be much easier to get what you need without the use of supplements.
+1 Personally, I wouldn't waste the time and money on BCAAs. Maybe get a plant based protein powder.
ETA: I should have read all the way before posting. I see Nony recommended a good plant based protein source. I also agree completely with anubis's points. Often, when you add volume, you reduce weight and increase reps. This fairly typical of Crossfit. This causes the use of both Type 1 an Type 2 muscle fibers and engages the smaller muscles and tendons more so than higher weight/ lower rep. That can and will cause DOMS.
I use Orgain as a vegan protein supplement. Only 21g/serving so I am trying to get myself to drink two/day.
And on CrossFit, I have a free membership for CF, I have been doing it on and off since I was 14. I enjoy the variety, the Oly lifts, rope climbs, the group atmosphere. If I really scale down the workouts to a level better suited for me while in a deficit, maybe I could avoid getting DOMS?
The important thing is that you do legitimately enjoy it if it keeps you consistently active.
I can't hate on the actual drive to perform when you're in a gym full of people hyping you up for PRs because it's a rush, or when you know everyone's eating the same amount of *kitten* just as equally as you are during brutal *kitten* routines, but it's a double-edged sword. Yes, it's positively motivating, but at the same time, sometimes you literally are pushing yourself beyond your capability to do it effectively. And that's where it becomes questionable.
Let me ask this, how much is your deficit now and are you taking your crossfit workouts into consideration when you eat at a deficit? Or are you eating the calorie count for a sedentary individual AND doing crossfit workouts on top of that (adding even more of a deficit from exercise on top of a non-exercise deficit)?
I ask because scaling down the workout to reduce DOMS is a viable strategy in the long run, but you'd need to adequately recover from the current state of muscle damage first before anything. If you're already in a deficit before even going in, then any amount of work you do is going to slam your deficit even more and true recovery may never happen so you'll constantly be eating away at lean mass into rhabdo.
Eat a bit more (with a heavy emphasis on protein, rebalancing sodium/magnesium/potassium, fluid intake, and anything to help with soreness and inflammation like super dosing omega-3) and do a bit less work just to promote recovery for now.
ETA: This couldn't have been a more perfect timing scenario to see on fb lol
https://www.facebook.com/brad.schoenfeld.cscs/posts/10214141134103384
4 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »I feel like I've seen this before somewhere but can you experience DOMS more from being in a calorie deficit? I know protein plays a big role too but I'm just wondering if it's still an issue with enough protein even while in a cal deficit? My mom, friend, and I will do the same workouts and I will be the only one that can hardly walk for days later. I think they are probably getting more protein & calories than me.
I'm barely seeing this now and haven't caught up so if it's addressed already, I'll edit, but for the most part DOMS and to a worse extent, rhabdomyolysis, is a combination of overly intense activity beyond neuromuscular adaptation, rate of recovery, and substrate availability for repair.
So, in a deficit, you're already in an impaired recovery state. To counteract that, the better recommendation is to get even more protein than you would on maintenance to compensate. At the same time, in a deficit, going too hard in workouts is also no bueno. You'll just be tearing away at skeletal tissue instead of fat. You want to stimulate the muscles, not annihilate them.
Edit: I had a feeling you might have been referring to crossfit. I'm going to say crossfit style of workouts are hardly conducive to anyone in even a moderate deficit. This is one of those activities that you NEED eat to fuel/recover from your workouts simply because the sheer amount of intensity demanded for WODs are known to actually destroy people. And by destroy, I mean actual muscle and tendon tears. If you're getting a very low amount of protein and energy in the day, doing crossfit isn't going to be doing any favors. I don't have anything against xfit, I just think it really could be implemented better as a program, especially for beginners.VintageFeline wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »Okay so more sleep, more protein, possibly scale down strength training.
It was 55 reps of squats with 6lb ball... so I don't know if the exercise is really the main issue.
As a vegetarian/borderline vegan, I am wondering if I should take an amino acid supplement along with my protein drink so make sure I'm getting all of the amino acids I need.
Thank you so much for your advice!
Total calories? Protein grams? Other than animal products are you restricting anything else? Eggs, milk, yogurt, cheese? how quickly did you ramp up to 55 squats?
My goal is 1,700 cal at a 500 cal deficit/day. My weekly calories are always either at or above my goal. Yesterday I managed 100g protein, but my average for the week before yesterday was about 55/day. I don't eat many dairy products or eggs, but I don't restrict them either.
Well I have been doing weighted squats for months, snatches, front/back squats, few air squats here and there. So doing 55 reps with a 6lb ball doesn't sound like something that could make me so sore. I did about 5 reps at a time before shaking out my legs and doing another 5. And this is just one example. I feel like every other workout I do makes me ridiculously sore, no matter how light I go.
Does anyone take a BCAA supplement? Could this be helpful?
Purely as an energy source, expensive energy source.
It has been shown in recent studies to not give any extra benefit to lifting and the normal way it's used and promoted.
Now - you being so low in protein, might be of assistance.
For example, if your diet has you just totally lacking on some amino acids or very short - that will effect usage of the others, the ratio between them for usage is interesting - the lowest common denominator method basically - one very low amino acid could prevent usage of the others.
At least more recent studies have shown the time window for that usage is decently long, if you have a mix of proteins through the day - but a real lack of variety could be bad still.
So if BCAA's provided what you are otherwise short on - useful.
If not - then not worth it.
Thank you very much Maybe I could try it out and see if I notice a difference.
Personally I'd work on getting my protein up from food first. Not to muddy the assessment waters with supplements that may or may not be doing something when you have changed another variable. Plus, going to be much easier to get what you need without the use of supplements.
+1 Personally, I wouldn't waste the time and money on BCAAs. Maybe get a plant based protein powder.
ETA: I should have read all the way before posting. I see Nony recommended a good plant based protein source. I also agree completely with anubis's points. Often, when you add volume, you reduce weight and increase reps. This fairly typical of Crossfit. This causes the use of both Type 1 an Type 2 muscle fibers and engages the smaller muscles and tendons more so than higher weight/ lower rep. That can and will cause DOMS.
I use Orgain as a vegan protein supplement. Only 21g/serving so I am trying to get myself to drink two/day.
And on CrossFit, I have a free membership for CF, I have been doing it on and off since I was 14. I enjoy the variety, the Oly lifts, rope climbs, the group atmosphere. If I really scale down the workouts to a level better suited for me while in a deficit, maybe I could avoid getting DOMS?
The important thing is that you do legitimately enjoy it if it keeps you consistently active.
I can't hate on the actual drive to perform when you're in a gym full of people hyping you up for PRs because it's a rush, or when you know everyone's eating the same amount of *kitten* just as equally as you are during brutal *kitten* routines, but it's a double-edged sword. Yes, it's positively motivating, but at the same time, sometimes you literally are pushing yourself beyond your capability to do it effectively. And that's where it becomes questionable.
Let me ask this, how much is your deficit now and are you taking your crossfit workouts into consideration when you eat at a deficit? Or are you eating the calorie count for a sedentary individual AND doing crossfit workouts on top of that (adding even more of a deficit from exercise on top of a non-exercise deficit)?
I ask because scaling down the workout to reduce DOMS is a viable strategy in the long run, but you'd need to adequately recover from the current state of muscle damage first before anything. If you're already in a deficit before even going in, then any amount of work you do is going to slam your deficit even more and true recovery may never happen so you'll constantly be eating away at lean mass into rhabdo.
Eat a bit more (with a heavy emphasis on protein, rebalancing sodium/magnesium/potassium, fluid intake, and anything to help with soreness and inflammation like super dosing omega-3) and do a bit less work just to promote recovery for now.
I'm set at sedentary lose 1lb/week. I just log a portion of time as "circuit training" and another portion as "strength training" usually comes close to 300+ cal but it's really hard to know how much I am really burning. I always end up hitting my goal for the week, if not for the day. This week and last week I have only gone to CF once/week. Other days I work on flexibility, cardio, or strengthening the muscles in my ankle & hips.
I will definitely work on that bolded part, thanks!1 -
Planning to refeed this weekend, I'm hoping that after that I'll be fully recovered 2
-
VintageFeline wrote: »People have a tendency to think in absolutes and that the calculators should be predicting their TDEE with 100% accuracy. We often see people who have been logging for a while asking if they should use their Fitbit or a calculator without even thinking about the fact they have data to work with and should use that. We have become over reliant on technology I think.
It didn't take me long to work out the numbers from my new device were overestimated, my old one underestimating a bit. Real world data trumps anything else.
Hell I've even seen veteran posters not suggest the best way is your own data. They encourage the use of the calculators and to work from there. Which quite frankly is unnecessary madness.
Soz fellow veterans.I can plug in my numbers and select the activity level I think most appropriate (sports 6-7 days) and it still falls way short of my actual TDEE.
Isn't this because my activity level factor is not 1.75 but rather something north of 2.0? So it's not under-estimating but just not the correct activity level factor because although I do sports everyday, I might do a lot of other things as well (shopping, taking care of kids, house chores etc) which the calculators don't take into account?
It could be that your activity factor is not correct because your NEAT is higher.
It could be that your activity factor is not correct because what exactly does "sports 6-7 days" mean? I shoot hoops for 10 minutes a day from the free throw line. You swim competitively for 3 hours every day and go for a bike ride on the weekend.
It could be that your activity factor is not correct because your BMR is not right at the mean but one or two standard deviations to the right or the left. Then, if you multiple that by your activity factor... well, that's a snickers bar or two for the same level of activity between lucky eat-a-lot and saves-on-groceries.
So the calculators come up with an estimate. And we tend to either be above, below, or near the estimate. Most calculators (or I should say ESTIMATORS) use fairly known formulas and disclose their activity factors.
For a quick listing of formulas and the activity factors used you can look at the discussion at the bottom of Scooby's Accurate Calorie Calculator.
MFP starts with an activity factor of 1.25, 1.4, 1.6, and 1.8 corresponding to sedentary, lightly active, active, and very active and expects people to manually enter the exercise that takes them above these settings.
Activity trackers such as the Fitbit assume a 1.0 activity factor and add the activity they detect (in the case of Fitbit, I believe that they base it on the average MET value they've detected over each 5 minute period)
Thanks both. I think Garmin has something similar to Fitbit.
Yes, I agree with using my own data (which is what I've been using) but I would like to push the envelope as far as I can go, IYKWIM? I want eat as much as possible to maintain a happy weight. The calculators are awfully imprecise for figuring out my potential as such.VintageFeline wrote: »People have a tendency to think in absolutes and that the calculators should be predicting their TDEE with 100% accuracy. We often see people who have been logging for a while asking if they should use their Fitbit or a calculator without even thinking about the fact they have data to work with and should use that. We have become over reliant on technology I think.
.
I think this is very important to think about!
Usually the TDEE calculators have been too low for my actual healthy intake, a happy surprise after years of calculating.
So as long as Im doing this diet break experiment I feel like I might even be able to take maintenance calories a bit higher.
Also I feel like Im finding my happy weight. Not my mirror expectation, but about 5 pounds higher. So now I am contemplating seeing how diet breaks and keeping the happy weight, enjoying life, feeling less depressed and more energy for more activity might be the life I really want. I think being strong and happy is more my goal now.
Love this topic and all the suggestions, experiences and followers.
Me too. I have a happy weight which is higher than my current weight but I'd like to see if I can lower that by just a bit.A question I've been wanting to ask for sometime now after reading so many posts in the forums about it and since we've been discussing TDEEs here (and since no question is off topic...)
When using online TDEE calculators, how can someone say that the calculator is over or under-estimating their maintenance calories when it all depends on the activity factor? Eg, I can plug in my numbers and select the activity level I think most appropriate (sports 6-7 days) and it still falls way short of my actual TDEE.
Isn't this because my activity level factor is not 1.75 but rather something north of 2.0? So it's not under-estimating but just not the correct activity level factor because although I do sports everyday, I might do a lot of other things as well (shopping, taking care of kids, house chores etc) which the calculators don't take into account?
So I guess it puzzles me when there are threads about TDEE estimates using online calcs and posts about maintaining below or above what they're given.
Almost all of those TDEE calc's are based on a Harris study from 1919 - and it only considers exercise, not daily life.
Obviously 2 people with exact same physical stats (gender/age/height/weight) and exercise routine (4 hrs spin bike weekly), one a mail carrier with kids, and one a desk job and no family and computer game junky - are not going to have anywhere near the same TDEE.
But they would get the same using those calc's.
So it is very rough estimate.
While the general advice is to test for a couple weeks - that obviously is only males that would work that fast - women would need to wait probably 2 months. That's a rather long time.
Plus the advice to test and lower rate of loss is going to fall on deaf ears of the majority that is looking to go as fast as possible.
I'm all for getting best estimate first, and then adjusting.
I figure we encourage weighing food for best accuracy, why not something on the CO side of equation that takes a few extra minutes and only need to update if things change in a major way.
This may help if no activity tracker to tweak settings on, for daily life and few levels of workout types.
Just TDEE Please spreadsheet - better than rough 5 level TDEE charts from 1919 study.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1G7FgNzPq3v5WMjDtH0n93LXSMRY_hjmzNTMJb3aZSxM/edit?usp=sharing
Thanks for the spreadsheet! I'll have a play with it! I have a tracker but want to see how much higher I can get above my tracker based on actual data.2 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »I feel like I've seen this before somewhere but can you experience DOMS more from being in a calorie deficit? I know protein plays a big role too but I'm just wondering if it's still an issue with enough protein even while in a cal deficit? My mom, friend, and I will do the same workouts and I will be the only one that can hardly walk for days later. I think they are probably getting more protein & calories than me.
I'm barely seeing this now and haven't caught up so if it's addressed already, I'll edit, but for the most part DOMS and to a worse extent, rhabdomyolysis, is a combination of overly intense activity beyond neuromuscular adaptation, rate of recovery, and substrate availability for repair.
So, in a deficit, you're already in an impaired recovery state. To counteract that, the better recommendation is to get even more protein than you would on maintenance to compensate. At the same time, in a deficit, going too hard in workouts is also no bueno. You'll just be tearing away at skeletal tissue instead of fat. You want to stimulate the muscles, not annihilate them.
Edit: I had a feeling you might have been referring to crossfit. I'm going to say crossfit style of workouts are hardly conducive to anyone in even a moderate deficit. This is one of those activities that you NEED eat to fuel/recover from your workouts simply because the sheer amount of intensity demanded for WODs are known to actually destroy people. And by destroy, I mean actual muscle and tendon tears. If you're getting a very low amount of protein and energy in the day, doing crossfit isn't going to be doing any favors. I don't have anything against xfit, I just think it really could be implemented better as a program, especially for beginners.VintageFeline wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »Okay so more sleep, more protein, possibly scale down strength training.
It was 55 reps of squats with 6lb ball... so I don't know if the exercise is really the main issue.
As a vegetarian/borderline vegan, I am wondering if I should take an amino acid supplement along with my protein drink so make sure I'm getting all of the amino acids I need.
Thank you so much for your advice!
Total calories? Protein grams? Other than animal products are you restricting anything else? Eggs, milk, yogurt, cheese? how quickly did you ramp up to 55 squats?
My goal is 1,700 cal at a 500 cal deficit/day. My weekly calories are always either at or above my goal. Yesterday I managed 100g protein, but my average for the week before yesterday was about 55/day. I don't eat many dairy products or eggs, but I don't restrict them either.
Well I have been doing weighted squats for months, snatches, front/back squats, few air squats here and there. So doing 55 reps with a 6lb ball doesn't sound like something that could make me so sore. I did about 5 reps at a time before shaking out my legs and doing another 5. And this is just one example. I feel like every other workout I do makes me ridiculously sore, no matter how light I go.
Does anyone take a BCAA supplement? Could this be helpful?
Purely as an energy source, expensive energy source.
It has been shown in recent studies to not give any extra benefit to lifting and the normal way it's used and promoted.
Now - you being so low in protein, might be of assistance.
For example, if your diet has you just totally lacking on some amino acids or very short - that will effect usage of the others, the ratio between them for usage is interesting - the lowest common denominator method basically - one very low amino acid could prevent usage of the others.
At least more recent studies have shown the time window for that usage is decently long, if you have a mix of proteins through the day - but a real lack of variety could be bad still.
So if BCAA's provided what you are otherwise short on - useful.
If not - then not worth it.
Thank you very much Maybe I could try it out and see if I notice a difference.
Personally I'd work on getting my protein up from food first. Not to muddy the assessment waters with supplements that may or may not be doing something when you have changed another variable. Plus, going to be much easier to get what you need without the use of supplements.
+1 Personally, I wouldn't waste the time and money on BCAAs. Maybe get a plant based protein powder.
ETA: I should have read all the way before posting. I see Nony recommended a good plant based protein source. I also agree completely with anubis's points. Often, when you add volume, you reduce weight and increase reps. This fairly typical of Crossfit. This causes the use of both Type 1 an Type 2 muscle fibers and engages the smaller muscles and tendons more so than higher weight/ lower rep. That can and will cause DOMS.
I use Orgain as a vegan protein supplement. Only 21g/serving so I am trying to get myself to drink two/day.
And on CrossFit, I have a free membership for CF, I have been doing it on and off since I was 14. I enjoy the variety, the Oly lifts, rope climbs, the group atmosphere. If I really scale down the workouts to a level better suited for me while in a deficit, maybe I could avoid getting DOMS?
The important thing is that you do legitimately enjoy it if it keeps you consistently active.
I can't hate on the actual drive to perform when you're in a gym full of people hyping you up for PRs because it's a rush, or when you know everyone's eating the same amount of *kitten* just as equally as you are during brutal *kitten* routines, but it's a double-edged sword. Yes, it's positively motivating, but at the same time, sometimes you literally are pushing yourself beyond your capability to do it effectively. And that's where it becomes questionable.
Let me ask this, how much is your deficit now and are you taking your crossfit workouts into consideration when you eat at a deficit? Or are you eating the calorie count for a sedentary individual AND doing crossfit workouts on top of that (adding even more of a deficit from exercise on top of a non-exercise deficit)?
I ask because scaling down the workout to reduce DOMS is a viable strategy in the long run, but you'd need to adequately recover from the current state of muscle damage first before anything. If you're already in a deficit before even going in, then any amount of work you do is going to slam your deficit even more and true recovery may never happen so you'll constantly be eating away at lean mass into rhabdo.
Eat a bit more (with a heavy emphasis on protein, rebalancing sodium/magnesium/potassium, fluid intake, and anything to help with soreness and inflammation like super dosing omega-3) and do a bit less work just to promote recovery for now.
I'm set at sedentary lose 1lb/week. I just log a portion of time as "circuit training" and another portion as "strength training" usually comes close to 300+ cal but it's really hard to know how much I am really burning. I always end up hitting my goal for the week, if not for the day. This week and last week I have only gone to CF once/week. Other days I work on flexibility, cardio, or strengthening the muscles in my ankle & hips.
I will definitely work on that bolded part, thanks!
Gotcha. I was thinking you were doing CF > 1x a week. Either way, make an allowance for increase in calories on active days, especially CF.
As a favor, I'm going to provide one example Lyle outlines in his injury book (highly recommend to purchase if you're at all interested: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/optimal-nutrition-injury-recovery)
For minor muscular injury:
CASE STUDY 1: MINOR MUSCULAR INJURY
The first case study I want to look at is the situation where someone involved in regular training
experiences a minor muscle pull (more accurately a strain). These are extremely common among
active individuals, and, as discussed, represent a small tear in a the muscle itself. Recovery tends to be
fairly quick here as the injury is minor and muscle has excellent blood flow and tissue turnover
meaning it can repair itself very rapidly.
Phase 1: Post-Injury and Inflammatory Phase
During the immediate post-injury and inflammatory phase, very little may be required at all.
Protection, Immobilization and Support are extremely unlikely to be necessary in this situation. Only
minimal Rest and perhaps Ice and Compression and Elevation being used for a day or so if at all.
Anti-inflammatory compounds for a day or two could be considered but wouldn't be necessary (and
might be detrimental) for longer than that. Since the inflammation itself tends to be short lived, even
the use of the other inflammatory modulating compounds may be unnecessary (fish oils, as part of general nutrition, should be part of the diet to begin with).
No real nutritional interventions would be required here other that good general nutrition. Any increase
in metabolic rate is likely to be small and short-lived and so long as sufficient calories, protein and
carbohydrates are being consumed this will be sufficient.
Phase 2: Proliferation
Inflammation will give way to proliferation relatively rapidly, within a few days under most conditions.
Here early mobilization such as light stretching would be useful and many find that a set or two of
fairly light but higher repetition (15-20 repetitions) work in the weight room can make the area feel
much better by pumping an enormous amount of blood through the area to both clear out damaged
tissue and bring nutrient into the area.
The same comments about general nutrition holds here in that it should be part of the overall daily
intake but shouldn't need to be altered in any major way due to the minor nature of the injury. The
inflammatory modulating compounds are unlikely to be beneficial and could even be detrimental at this
point although supplements such as whey protein (synchronized around any high repetition weight
training) and creatine are always useful for weight training athletes.
Phase 3: Remodeling
The proliferative phase is unlikely to last for more than a few days as well and this will signal the
beginning of the remodeling phase. At this point, progressively heavier weight training can be
implemented for the injured area, gradually increasing intensity and/or volume (amount of training
being done) over time. It would be unlikely to take more than perhaps 2-3 weeks to reach more or less
full recovery after a minor injury of this sort and many will recover even more quickly than that.4 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »I feel like I've seen this before somewhere but can you experience DOMS more from being in a calorie deficit? I know protein plays a big role too but I'm just wondering if it's still an issue with enough protein even while in a cal deficit? My mom, friend, and I will do the same workouts and I will be the only one that can hardly walk for days later. I think they are probably getting more protein & calories than me.
I'm barely seeing this now and haven't caught up so if it's addressed already, I'll edit, but for the most part DOMS and to a worse extent, rhabdomyolysis, is a combination of overly intense activity beyond neuromuscular adaptation, rate of recovery, and substrate availability for repair.
So, in a deficit, you're already in an impaired recovery state. To counteract that, the better recommendation is to get even more protein than you would on maintenance to compensate. At the same time, in a deficit, going too hard in workouts is also no bueno. You'll just be tearing away at skeletal tissue instead of fat. You want to stimulate the muscles, not annihilate them.
Edit: I had a feeling you might have been referring to crossfit. I'm going to say crossfit style of workouts are hardly conducive to anyone in even a moderate deficit. This is one of those activities that you NEED eat to fuel/recover from your workouts simply because the sheer amount of intensity demanded for WODs are known to actually destroy people. And by destroy, I mean actual muscle and tendon tears. If you're getting a very low amount of protein and energy in the day, doing crossfit isn't going to be doing any favors. I don't have anything against xfit, I just think it really could be implemented better as a program, especially for beginners.VintageFeline wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »Okay so more sleep, more protein, possibly scale down strength training.
It was 55 reps of squats with 6lb ball... so I don't know if the exercise is really the main issue.
As a vegetarian/borderline vegan, I am wondering if I should take an amino acid supplement along with my protein drink so make sure I'm getting all of the amino acids I need.
Thank you so much for your advice!
Total calories? Protein grams? Other than animal products are you restricting anything else? Eggs, milk, yogurt, cheese? how quickly did you ramp up to 55 squats?
My goal is 1,700 cal at a 500 cal deficit/day. My weekly calories are always either at or above my goal. Yesterday I managed 100g protein, but my average for the week before yesterday was about 55/day. I don't eat many dairy products or eggs, but I don't restrict them either.
Well I have been doing weighted squats for months, snatches, front/back squats, few air squats here and there. So doing 55 reps with a 6lb ball doesn't sound like something that could make me so sore. I did about 5 reps at a time before shaking out my legs and doing another 5. And this is just one example. I feel like every other workout I do makes me ridiculously sore, no matter how light I go.
Does anyone take a BCAA supplement? Could this be helpful?
Purely as an energy source, expensive energy source.
It has been shown in recent studies to not give any extra benefit to lifting and the normal way it's used and promoted.
Now - you being so low in protein, might be of assistance.
For example, if your diet has you just totally lacking on some amino acids or very short - that will effect usage of the others, the ratio between them for usage is interesting - the lowest common denominator method basically - one very low amino acid could prevent usage of the others.
At least more recent studies have shown the time window for that usage is decently long, if you have a mix of proteins through the day - but a real lack of variety could be bad still.
So if BCAA's provided what you are otherwise short on - useful.
If not - then not worth it.
Thank you very much Maybe I could try it out and see if I notice a difference.
Personally I'd work on getting my protein up from food first. Not to muddy the assessment waters with supplements that may or may not be doing something when you have changed another variable. Plus, going to be much easier to get what you need without the use of supplements.
+1 Personally, I wouldn't waste the time and money on BCAAs. Maybe get a plant based protein powder.
ETA: I should have read all the way before posting. I see Nony recommended a good plant based protein source. I also agree completely with anubis's points. Often, when you add volume, you reduce weight and increase reps. This fairly typical of Crossfit. This causes the use of both Type 1 an Type 2 muscle fibers and engages the smaller muscles and tendons more so than higher weight/ lower rep. That can and will cause DOMS.
I use Orgain as a vegan protein supplement. Only 21g/serving so I am trying to get myself to drink two/day.
And on CrossFit, I have a free membership for CF, I have been doing it on and off since I was 14. I enjoy the variety, the Oly lifts, rope climbs, the group atmosphere. If I really scale down the workouts to a level better suited for me while in a deficit, maybe I could avoid getting DOMS?
The important thing is that you do legitimately enjoy it if it keeps you consistently active.
I can't hate on the actual drive to perform when you're in a gym full of people hyping you up for PRs because it's a rush, or when you know everyone's eating the same amount of *kitten* just as equally as you are during brutal *kitten* routines, but it's a double-edged sword. Yes, it's positively motivating, but at the same time, sometimes you literally are pushing yourself beyond your capability to do it effectively. And that's where it becomes questionable.
Let me ask this, how much is your deficit now and are you taking your crossfit workouts into consideration when you eat at a deficit? Or are you eating the calorie count for a sedentary individual AND doing crossfit workouts on top of that (adding even more of a deficit from exercise on top of a non-exercise deficit)?
I ask because scaling down the workout to reduce DOMS is a viable strategy in the long run, but you'd need to adequately recover from the current state of muscle damage first before anything. If you're already in a deficit before even going in, then any amount of work you do is going to slam your deficit even more and true recovery may never happen so you'll constantly be eating away at lean mass into rhabdo.
Eat a bit more (with a heavy emphasis on protein, rebalancing sodium/magnesium/potassium, fluid intake, and anything to help with soreness and inflammation like super dosing omega-3) and do a bit less work just to promote recovery for now.
I'm set at sedentary lose 1lb/week. I just log a portion of time as "circuit training" and another portion as "strength training" usually comes close to 300+ cal but it's really hard to know how much I am really burning. I always end up hitting my goal for the week, if not for the day. This week and last week I have only gone to CF once/week. Other days I work on flexibility, cardio, or strengthening the muscles in my ankle & hips.
I will definitely work on that bolded part, thanks!
Gotcha. I was thinking you were doing CF > 1x a week. Either way, make an allowance for increase in calories on active days, especially CF.
As a favor, I'm going to provide one example Lyle outlines in his injury book (highly recommend to purchase if you're at all interested: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/optimal-nutrition-injury-recovery)
For minor muscular injury:
CASE STUDY 1: MINOR MUSCULAR INJURY
The first case study I want to look at is the situation where someone involved in regular training
experiences a minor muscle pull (more accurately a strain). These are extremely common among
active individuals, and, as discussed, represent a small tear in a the muscle itself. Recovery tends to be
fairly quick here as the injury is minor and muscle has excellent blood flow and tissue turnover
meaning it can repair itself very rapidly.
Phase 1: Post-Injury and Inflammatory Phase
During the immediate post-injury and inflammatory phase, very little may be required at all.
Protection, Immobilization and Support are extremely unlikely to be necessary in this situation. Only
minimal Rest and perhaps Ice and Compression and Elevation being used for a day or so if at all.
Anti-inflammatory compounds for a day or two could be considered but wouldn't be necessary (and
might be detrimental) for longer than that. Since the inflammation itself tends to be short lived, even
the use of the other inflammatory modulating compounds may be unnecessary (fish oils, as part of general nutrition, should be part of the diet to begin with).
No real nutritional interventions would be required here other that good general nutrition. Any increase
in metabolic rate is likely to be small and short-lived and so long as sufficient calories, protein and
carbohydrates are being consumed this will be sufficient.
Phase 2: Proliferation
Inflammation will give way to proliferation relatively rapidly, within a few days under most conditions.
Here early mobilization such as light stretching would be useful and many find that a set or two of
fairly light but higher repetition (15-20 repetitions) work in the weight room can make the area feel
much better by pumping an enormous amount of blood through the area to both clear out damaged
tissue and bring nutrient into the area.
The same comments about general nutrition holds here in that it should be part of the overall daily
intake but shouldn't need to be altered in any major way due to the minor nature of the injury. The
inflammatory modulating compounds are unlikely to be beneficial and could even be detrimental at this
point although supplements such as whey protein (synchronized around any high repetition weight
training) and creatine are always useful for weight training athletes.
Phase 3: Remodeling
The proliferative phase is unlikely to last for more than a few days as well and this will signal the
beginning of the remodeling phase. At this point, progressively heavier weight training can be
implemented for the injured area, gradually increasing intensity and/or volume (amount of training
being done) over time. It would be unlikely to take more than perhaps 2-3 weeks to reach more or less
full recovery after a minor injury of this sort and many will recover even more quickly than that.
Thank you 1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I am still frustratingly up 2 pounds and it's starting to annoy me. Thanksgiving was a week ago already. I did see the scale flash my previous low weight when I stepped on it this morning before going up those 2 pounds, so it might be doing that silly thing digital scales do of remembering previous recorded weights.
No matter what happens tomorrow on weigh in, I'll still be doing a refeed this weekend since I've been eating at deficit since last Friday, and some of those deficits have been fairly aggressive.
A wild guess but maybe you've got some cortisol happening due to some of the challenges of the last month or so?
That's a distinct possibility. I also might have some water retention because my steps went up due to my new game on my phone distracting me while I'm on my treadmill
I know enough to trust the process, but there's a voice inside my head that wants to lead to nasty compulsive behavior that isn't healthy.
This is why this thread has been so wonderful for me.
I don't believe I clinically have an eating disorder, but some of my behaviors around weight loss bordered on it, with tendencies to over eat and then over restrict to make up for it and then over eat because the over restriction left me starving. Lather, rinse, repeat. I was bothered tremendously by what the scale said and very reactionary about it.
Ever since I've adopted the weekend refeeds into my losing, I haven't had adherence problems, but I still have that voice in my head that struggles with the scale sometimes. I never used to, because I've been a daily weigher since I started losing weight. The voice isn't terribly loud, and I'm still strong enough to shout it down and persist in logically telling it what it can go do with itself. But it's still there.
I would agree that you were bordering on going down that rabbit hole. For me, because I had (have) an ED, I have to be honest and admit that I was heading down the rabbit hole. Not full blown, the truly severe mental aspects were not in play yet (as in I was not yet a basket case, and it was not an every day thing), but I was tending towards ED Version 1.0 a few months ago. That's why something had to give. And yes, I changed my way of eating/dieting as part of that (and it's working), but I had to do a whole *kitten* load of other work along side that on the cognitive side, including letting go and trusting the process. And that was *kitten* hard.
Today I'm up 400g, and that voice in my head is screaming 'go back to a deficit!!!!!!!'. Logic brain is replying 'oh ffs, you're on a corticosteroid, ya think maybe that's water weight?'. Combined with mood and lack of sleep, this could be a fun couple of days for me though.
So there you go, some nice semi-full disclosure from Nony first thing in the morning. I'm sure those who know my history can read between the lines.
I've never really been diagnosed with an ED officially but I get really bad weekly episodes of binging and purging (all types) and self-harm because of the mental aspects as Nony said. It's been going on for a long, long time and unfortunately it's still happening despite my attempts with flexible dieting. (ETA: I never count cals purged, in case anyone's wondering and I know exactly what comes out, sorry tmi.)
BUT tracking progress on a monthly basis helped A LOT with the mental aspects so I'd encourage you to take a step back and look at progress on a monthly or even every two months basis because the scale is kinder that way.
And yeah, I've never ever disclosed so much before in a forum, geez, this thread...6 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Anyone have any experience with prednisone? It's possible I'm at oral steroids stage for eczema treatment
![:\](https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
I've been on it several times for up to two weeks. I won't take it anymore. It greatly increased my appetite and decreased my ability to sleep. My staff already limit my ability to have caffeine in the office (they take it away from me and yell at anyone who offers it). Being naturally super-energetic, the last thing I need is something to make me more hyper.
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »Anyone have any experience with prednisone? It's possible I'm at oral steroids stage for eczema treatment
I've been on it several times for up to two weeks. I won't take it anymore. It greatly increased my appetite and decreased my ability to sleep. My staff already limit my ability to have caffeine in the office (they take it away from me and yell at anyone who offers it). Being naturally super-energetic, the last thing I need is something to make me more hyper.
I haven't had any noticeable increase in appetite yet, actually more the opposite (but that's likely just heat and feeling punk), hence the 700 cal mega shake last night. And today, didn't have breakfast before going to the doctor, because I wasn't going to be *that* long. After doing that, getting scripts filled (I love it when I need a supermarket bag for my scripts!), going to the supermarket, popping into my lab, etc, etc...it's now 20 to 12, and I'm only just 'oh yeah, I could go for some food about now'.2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I am still frustratingly up 2 pounds and it's starting to annoy me. Thanksgiving was a week ago already. I did see the scale flash my previous low weight when I stepped on it this morning before going up those 2 pounds, so it might be doing that silly thing digital scales do of remembering previous recorded weights.
No matter what happens tomorrow on weigh in, I'll still be doing a refeed this weekend since I've been eating at deficit since last Friday, and some of those deficits have been fairly aggressive.
A wild guess but maybe you've got some cortisol happening due to some of the challenges of the last month or so?
That's a distinct possibility. I also might have some water retention because my steps went up due to my new game on my phone distracting me while I'm on my treadmill
I know enough to trust the process, but there's a voice inside my head that wants to lead to nasty compulsive behavior that isn't healthy.
This is why this thread has been so wonderful for me.
I don't believe I clinically have an eating disorder, but some of my behaviors around weight loss bordered on it, with tendencies to over eat and then over restrict to make up for it and then over eat because the over restriction left me starving. Lather, rinse, repeat. I was bothered tremendously by what the scale said and very reactionary about it.
Ever since I've adopted the weekend refeeds into my losing, I haven't had adherence problems, but I still have that voice in my head that struggles with the scale sometimes. I never used to, because I've been a daily weigher since I started losing weight. The voice isn't terribly loud, and I'm still strong enough to shout it down and persist in logically telling it what it can go do with itself. But it's still there.
I would agree that you were bordering on going down that rabbit hole. For me, because I had (have) an ED, I have to be honest and admit that I was heading down the rabbit hole. Not full blown, the truly severe mental aspects were not in play yet (as in I was not yet a basket case, and it was not an every day thing), but I was tending towards ED Version 1.0 a few months ago. That's why something had to give. And yes, I changed my way of eating/dieting as part of that (and it's working), but I had to do a whole *kitten* load of other work along side that on the cognitive side, including letting go and trusting the process. And that was *kitten* hard.
Today I'm up 400g, and that voice in my head is screaming 'go back to a deficit!!!!!!!'. Logic brain is replying 'oh ffs, you're on a corticosteroid, ya think maybe that's water weight?'. Combined with mood and lack of sleep, this could be a fun couple of days for me though.
So there you go, some nice semi-full disclosure from Nony first thing in the morning. I'm sure those who know my history can read between the lines.
I've never really been diagnosed with an ED officially but I get really bad weekly episodes of binging and purging (all types) and self-harm because of the mental aspects as Nony said. It's been going on for a long, long time and unfortunately it's still happening despite my attempts with flexible dieting. (ETA: I never count cals purged, in case anyone's wondering and I know exactly what comes out, sorry tmi.)
BUT tracking progress on a monthly basis helped A LOT with the mental aspects so I'd encourage you to take a step back and look at progress on a monthly or even every two months basis because the scale is kinder that way.
And yeah, I've never ever disclosed so much before in a forum, geez, this thread...
Also never logged more than the occasional binge (I may have logged the last one I think), and definitely not if purged. I know it's impossible to get it all (something has to make it through), but who know's on that? And sorry for the TMI guys...
@maybyn, I would highly recommend some counselling to help get to the bottom of the 'why'. I did it with ED Version/Round 1.0, and while it didn't stop 25 years worth of relapses (often with very long times in between), or ED Version 2.0 (basically anorexia without quite long enough timeframe or ever getting underweight), I have been able to put what I learned into practice to help get me out of the rabbit hole again. And if you ever need to talk, just PM me (((hugs))) 7 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I am still frustratingly up 2 pounds and it's starting to annoy me. Thanksgiving was a week ago already. I did see the scale flash my previous low weight when I stepped on it this morning before going up those 2 pounds, so it might be doing that silly thing digital scales do of remembering previous recorded weights.
No matter what happens tomorrow on weigh in, I'll still be doing a refeed this weekend since I've been eating at deficit since last Friday, and some of those deficits have been fairly aggressive.
A wild guess but maybe you've got some cortisol happening due to some of the challenges of the last month or so?
That's a distinct possibility. I also might have some water retention because my steps went up due to my new game on my phone distracting me while I'm on my treadmill
I know enough to trust the process, but there's a voice inside my head that wants to lead to nasty compulsive behavior that isn't healthy.
This is why this thread has been so wonderful for me.
I don't believe I clinically have an eating disorder, but some of my behaviors around weight loss bordered on it, with tendencies to over eat and then over restrict to make up for it and then over eat because the over restriction left me starving. Lather, rinse, repeat. I was bothered tremendously by what the scale said and very reactionary about it.
Ever since I've adopted the weekend refeeds into my losing, I haven't had adherence problems, but I still have that voice in my head that struggles with the scale sometimes. I never used to, because I've been a daily weigher since I started losing weight. The voice isn't terribly loud, and I'm still strong enough to shout it down and persist in logically telling it what it can go do with itself. But it's still there.
I would agree that you were bordering on going down that rabbit hole. For me, because I had (have) an ED, I have to be honest and admit that I was heading down the rabbit hole. Not full blown, the truly severe mental aspects were not in play yet (as in I was not yet a basket case, and it was not an every day thing), but I was tending towards ED Version 1.0 a few months ago. That's why something had to give. And yes, I changed my way of eating/dieting as part of that (and it's working), but I had to do a whole *kitten* load of other work along side that on the cognitive side, including letting go and trusting the process. And that was *kitten* hard.
Today I'm up 400g, and that voice in my head is screaming 'go back to a deficit!!!!!!!'. Logic brain is replying 'oh ffs, you're on a corticosteroid, ya think maybe that's water weight?'. Combined with mood and lack of sleep, this could be a fun couple of days for me though.
So there you go, some nice semi-full disclosure from Nony first thing in the morning. I'm sure those who know my history can read between the lines.
I've never really been diagnosed with an ED officially but I get really bad weekly episodes of binging and purging (all types) and self-harm because of the mental aspects as Nony said. It's been going on for a long, long time and unfortunately it's still happening despite my attempts with flexible dieting. (ETA: I never count cals purged, in case anyone's wondering and I know exactly what comes out, sorry tmi.)
BUT tracking progress on a monthly basis helped A LOT with the mental aspects so I'd encourage you to take a step back and look at progress on a monthly or even every two months basis because the scale is kinder that way.
And yeah, I've never ever disclosed so much before in a forum, geez, this thread...
Well, there's no judgment here. I'd be the first to admit to having several disorders, but they add a bit of charm. Lol. I can't give any official advice other than the ED cycle is also deeply psychological, so keep track of what feelings you associate with certain numbers and learn to navigate through triggers. Logically, it's easy to spot what's wrong with knee jerk reactions to what we see, but it's harder to make long-lasting changes and seemingly convince ourselves that it's actually for the better.
Case in point, I'm prone to overtraining and undereating, associating hedonism with guilt, and the perpetual need to be leaner than I already am. I'm cognizant of all these things, yet I have to really fight against them almost daily. I accept that they're there so it's just a matter of not letting them take over my actions. If anything I might compromise with my own thoughts just to split the difference of acceptability. I have felt what it's like to crash hormones down to a level of pure hatred and literally feeling frigid in the dead heat of summer, so since it's not something I'd like to experience again, I use that consequence as a learning reference point.
Even being able to recognize whether or not you're seeing similar patterns is a good sign that you're aware enough to change course. It takes time, but being hard on ourselves is probably a common trait we can all learn to resolve slowly 8 -
I'm going to post some info here that only kinda relates to refeeds and diet breaks.
For the last 6 weeks I have been all over the block with calories. A nieces wedding in late October started it off. Then Halloween parties, then a visit from my lovely daughter for a week and right into Thanksgiving. I also changed my lifting program to one that was more focused on muscle building (hypertrophy).
Some days I was at maintenance, some days way over, some days on plan. The net effect was......up 1/2 lb and waist down 1/2 inch. WFT???? Slight muscle gain and slight fat loss maybe?? A kind of ad hoc recomp??
During this time, water weight was all over the block also. Effects of the new program? Sodium and food transit? All of the above? Took 5 days for water weight and food transit to normalize after Thanksgiving. But, that day, I did EAT ALL THE FOOODZ!!!
One conclusion is, for those that fear going of deficit, just like you don't lose quickly, you don't gain that way either. It can be soooo hard to remember this! I can tell you one thing; with the randomness of my intake, I'm sure my hormone regulating organs were wondering, "What is he doing???"
I can confirm this. I plotted my weight for over a year and a half. I eat like a pig anytime there is a family dinner (birthdays, holidays, or just because). There is always an initial gain the day after (for me it is usually 2-3 pounds). If I immediately go back to eating normally my weight trends down for 4-7 days and then is back to normal. I also eat like a gluttonous fool on vacation. I am of course heavier on return from vacation (maybe 5 pounds?). I usually eat in a slight deficit upon return and my weight typically returns to normal in about 10-14 days. The majority of the loss is within the first 7 days.4 -
Saw my doctor this morning, she was suitably horrified by the photo of my leg from Wednesday, at it's worst, and also suitably impressed at just how much energy it takes in calorie terms to generate that mess.
I now have yet another steroid cream (that's four, I think I have all strengths covered now, this one sits between hydrocortisone and locoid), and refills on all my other potions and antihistamines, plus more benzos in a futile attempt to combat the pred insomnia.1 -
@Nony_Mouse I think I'm gonna try out your eczema diet plan... I am actually not sure at all if that's what this little patch on my elbow is, but I have never had this before and now that I have been reading about your experience this suddenly pops up, super weird.
I hope that you heal up soon, that sounds like an awful experience!1 -
A small update from me - so much so for the accuracy of my numbers.
Quite an embarrassing confession to make but in the midst of all the conversions from kg to pounds (which I do for this forum and a couple of others), I had my calculations set up as 3500 cals = 1kg, not 1 pound. So my rate of loss the past 4 months was double what it should have been if the 3500 cals = 1 pound rule was taken.
For the science-y people in or reading this thread who may be interested, here are my numbers. And for those who may be scared to up their calories, so many great testimonials already from others who have posted but here's mine. While my monthly numbers do not match projected scale drops each month likely due to water weight, TOM, binging vs whoosh effect etc etc but taken overall, the numbers match (apart from the fact that I need to look at the CO part carefully now since my garmin may not be as accurate as I thought).
(ETA: October was the start of the Refeed approach)
I'm officially on a diet break now (aka maintenance) and will be on this till probably around March next year.
So you ate almost 1000 calories more and still lost weight.
Dont let the main forums now, they will freak the hell out.
Sorry if that has been pointed out, 4 pages behind lol11 -
I actually have this theory that my body empathizes with other people's. I developed tendonitis in my ankle after my sister shattered the bones in hers, I started having gut issues after my best friend had her gall bladder removed, and my back started hurting a lot after I started dating my boyfriend who has a back injury... I swear it's not just mental either. I've been to physical therapy for my ankle where it was confirmed that I have flat feet and weak joints, I was told I was experiencing spasms, and that I had scoliosis all by specialists.... Weirdest thing ever. It's as if my brain manifests the issues I see other people experiencing.3
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Not that any of that is based on science
just a funny theory 1 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »@Nony_Mouse I think I'm gonna try out your eczema diet plan... I am actually not sure at all if that's what this little patch on my elbow is, but I have never had this before and now that I have been reading about your experience this suddenly pops up, super weird.
I hope that you heal up soon, that sounds like an awful experience!
Haha, extrapolating out for area, you can have maybe an extra 10 calories. But I hope for your sake it's not that. If you have any hydrocortisone cream, try some of that on it and see if it clears
Also, I think I'm in the category of people who get an energy boost from pred. Either that or I'm at the hyper stage of sleep deprivation. I'm going to put this to good use and get some strength training in, even if I have to take 3 hours to do a 45 minute workout so as to not get too hot.
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Regarding DOMS, one component that wasnt discussed was genetics. Some people get it in certain areas, regardless of how much protein or calories. I always get DOMS in my legs and back. I never get it in my upper body.3
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »@Nony_Mouse I think I'm gonna try out your eczema diet plan... I am actually not sure at all if that's what this little patch on my elbow is, but I have never had this before and now that I have been reading about your experience this suddenly pops up, super weird.
I hope that you heal up soon, that sounds like an awful experience!
Haha, extrapolating out for area, you can have maybe an extra 10 calories. But I hope for your sake it's not that. If you have any hydrocortisone cream, try some of that on it and see if it clears
Also, I think I'm in the category of people who get an energy boost from pred. Either that or I'm at the hyper stage of sleep deprivation. I'm going to put this to good use and get some strength training in, even if I have to take 3 hours to do a 45 minute workout so as to not get too hot.
Thank you I’ll try that!1 -
I may never complain about ovulation or pms bloat again...1
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For those not on my friends list,
Ankle: up 1 cm
Waist: up 1.5 cm
Thigh (individual): up 1.5 cm
Yes, I am a big wobbly mess of water.
However, the rash is vastly improved, and I was able to get through strength training. Definitely not the energizer bunny I was before that, but that's also possibly lack of food, because what increased appetite???
Yoghurt and strawberries, and probably a protein shake, is a balanced diet, right??7 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »For those not on my friends list,
Ankle: up 1 cm
Waist: up 1.5 cm
Thigh (individual): up 1.5 cm
Yes, I am a big wobbly mess of water.
However, the rash is vastly improved, and I was able to get through strength training. Definitely not the energizer bunny I was before that, but that's also possibly lack of food, because what increased appetite???
Yoghurt and strawberries, and probably a protein shake, is a balanced diet, right??
You seem to be handling this exceptionally well @Nony_Mouse... I would have been a mess just from the rash! Hoping it clears up completely and you can get off the meds soon!1 -
I wonder what increase got from my poison ivy rash, and several re-infections as I missed what the oil must have gotten on?
And a long bike ride didn't help with the sweating.
This after 2 weeks since initial contact.
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livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »For those not on my friends list,
Ankle: up 1 cm
Waist: up 1.5 cm
Thigh (individual): up 1.5 cm
Yes, I am a big wobbly mess of water.
However, the rash is vastly improved, and I was able to get through strength training. Definitely not the energizer bunny I was before that, but that's also possibly lack of food, because what increased appetite???
Yoghurt and strawberries, and probably a protein shake, is a balanced diet, right??
You seem to be handling this exceptionally well @Nony_Mouse... I would have been a mess just from the rash! Hoping it clears up completely and you can get off the meds soon!
I'm actually really not Y'know how people make their life look fabulous on Facebook?
This is laugh so I don't cry. It's been close more than once.
I really want to go for a walk, because it helps clear my head, plus cabin fever, but I'm already 300 cals under TDEE with what I have logged.
And I am stressing myself out over *kitten* sodium. I have never once given a damn about my sodium intake.
It's water weight, it's water weight, it's water weight. It will go away.3
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