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Can you call an ambulance for somebody without their consent?
Replies
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UK here too. I have my issues with the NHS and the way it treats people with thyroid issues but when it comes to accidents and emergencies, there is no service better. As a driver I know heaven forbid I were to cause a pedestrian to need an ambulance I would be required to pay for the call out. That is a small price to pay for knowing the person would be taken care of without any cost to them. May be it helps some of us drive more carefully and be mindful of pedestrians and cyclists.3
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I know a lot of you Americans consider our NHS here in the UK a commie abomination, but the thought of calling an ambulance being a tough moral decision is almost incomprehensible to me. It sounds like that guy was lucky you were there. Well done.
To be fair, the reason I didn't want to call without his permission was that he was confused and frightened and wanted to get out of there in a hurry. Waiting in the cold rain in a place where he had just been injured and which must have felt very hostile was obviously causing him destress. As an unrelated bystander who was just going to the gym to swim laps, I wasn't sure how to balance respect for his wishes, and the idea that he needs medical attention. That's why I asked, now I know.0 -
Was there a reason why no-one called the police to report the incident, though (even if the alleged driver was sorry and stayed to help)? Isn't that the right thing to do?
(I witnessed a car accident once and called 911 before I could even get out of my car to see if the lady was ok (her car tipped over/low speed/stuff from inside her car was all over the road... the lady was super scared, but unharmed).
I can only speak for myself. I heard and saw a person's life get ruined. I was scrambling, trying to figure out what to do. The guy had a broken leg before he got hit, he couldn't get up without help, and wanted to be out of harm's way.
I was hit by a car a few years ago, and this triggered my PTSD. It was a horrific, panicked situation. I didn't think to call the police, or to move my car.
Probably the hospital calls the police automatically when this happens.2 -
911 here goes to whichever city's police dispatch - they summon the ambulance of whatever is closest, if it sounds like it might be needed, along with police of course.
Sometimes even a fire truck - which was called out for my bike accident for some reason - perhaps they thought I'd be push into the car and need jaws of life or something.
EMT looked me over and decided good enough to refuse hospital. Police made up report and ticket for lady, and gave me and poor mangled bike a ride back home. I don't recall seeing bill for EMT, perhaps that much considered public service. Perhaps it went straight to car insurance, and they passed on to other driver's insurance.0 -
911 here goes to whichever city's police dispatch - they summon the ambulance of whatever is closest, if it sounds like it might be needed, along with police of course.
Sometimes even a fire truck - which was called out for my bike accident for some reason - perhaps they thought I'd be push into the car and need jaws of life or something.
EMT looked me over and decided good enough to refuse hospital. Police made up report and ticket for lady, and gave me and poor mangled bike a ride back home. I don't recall seeing bill for EMT, perhaps that much considered public service. Perhaps it went straight to car insurance, and they passed on to other driver's insurance.
Depends on the jurisdiction and levels of training, but in many places fire departments are staffed with EMTs/paramedics, so they roll on any reported injury accident (either medics on board an engine or sometimes a specific medic rig, depending on the department). They'll triage/treat at the scene, an ambulance will be called if needed for transport.
A victim can decline treatment and/or transport - the medics will have them sign an "AMA waiver" (stands for "Against Medical Advice", meaning you've been told you should go to the hospital for medical care and are assuming your own liability by refusing to do so) and send them on their way. If you're conscious and capable to any extent of making a rational decision, you can't be transported against your will no matter how badly injured you are. A medic who forcibly transported you against your will could (theoretically) be charged with kidnapping and/or false imprisonment, and that's not a road they want to go down.
As to the OP - you can (and should) dial 911/notify first responders any time you come upon an injury situation. You're not making a decision as to what care will be given or whether they will be transported - you're just getting qualified assistance to the scene so they can render aid and make that assessment. You're under no obligation to obtain permission from the injured party (or anybody else) to make that call.2 -
I'm so grateful to live in a place where ambulance service is a State amenity. Households pay a levy (through their electricity bill) which covers all people residing in the house for ambulance services.
If a person who is not a resident of the State needs emergency ambulance services it is provided and they send a bill.
My dad visited Queensland once from out of state and ended up swept out to sea. The portion of his helicopter rescue bill he was asked to pay was $280. And that was for a chopper!
None of this $1000+ rubbish.
The exploitive nature of the high cost American system makes me cringe.9 -
I'm so grateful to live in a place where ambulance service is a State amenity. Households pay a levy (through their electricity bill) which covers all people residing in the house for ambulance services.
If a person who is not a resident of the State needs emergency ambulance services it is provided and they send a bill.
My dad visited Queensland once from out of state and ended up swept out to sea. The portion of his helicopter rescue bill he was asked to pay was $280. And that was for a chopper!
None of this $1000+ rubbish.
The exploitive nature of the high cost American system makes me cringe.
It makes a lot of Americans cringe, too...
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In a case with a person injured, please call 911. They are professionals and know what to do. People involved don't think clearly as they may be in shock (which happened to my dad once). Then afterwards in their right mind they do second guess themselves. At least the EMTs can check them out (often it's the fire dept paramedics). They inform the person of their options. They can either find a ride or take transport (which is usually a fee). They won't force you to take it. At least then you then leave it up to the professionals. Again, you aren't charged for medics unless you take the ambulance.
Side story: my mom was transported by ambulance from the casino by the casino fire dept medics and the casino never charged her for the ride to the hospital. Probably something they do for customers which was very nice of them.
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Twice I had a woman faint in the store I worked at. Yes, both times we called 911. One refused to go to the hospital and waited for her husband to come pick her up and the other did go in the ambulance (both were pregnant, BTW).1
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Always call. The person can always refuse treatment or find some way to pay the bill (or just get it written off) but they can't be brought back from the dead.2
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Yes you can. My neighbor called an ambulance on me when I was unconscious and was losing my ability to breath during and after a grand mal seizure. I woke out of it while being rushed to the hospital with oxygen attached. I'd probably be dead if it wasn't for her.2
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To me this question just seems crazy. Thank you UK for the NHS.9
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General rule, if someone has been in a situation where they are, as you mentioned, likely in shock or have had an injury to the head - call an ambulance. The person cannot be trusted to be mentally capable of accurately judging their physical state. They MAY be correct that they are fine, but there is no way to be sure from the outside, and they should be considered to be a in a compromised mental state.2
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Not only can you do so, but you really ought to do so as a witness to a criminal act resulting in the injury of a person. The police and medical emergency responders both will be notified when you call 911.2
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Not only can you do so, but you really ought to do so as a witness to a criminal act resulting in the injury of a person. The police and medical emergency responders both will be notified when you call 911.
An accident is not necessarily "criminal." You can be liable and civilly responsible for an accident without having committed an actual crime.
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You absolutely have the right to activate emergency response, but in this case the patient went to the hospital on their own. You did well - please continue to do so.
People in accidents (or any traumatic event) are rarely in their right minds due to the body's response to trauma. Blood to the extremities is limited, so people lose peripheral vision, hearing, cognitive thought, fine motor skills, and all higher reasoning.
Most Local/State laws have some manner of Good Samaritan laws in place to protect civilians from liability from taking reasonable actions to aid the injured. Need to check with your area to see what your laws are.
You need laws for this?
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comptonelizabeth wrote: »You absolutely have the right to activate emergency response, but in this case the patient went to the hospital on their own. You did well - please continue to do so.
People in accidents (or any traumatic event) are rarely in their right minds due to the body's response to trauma. Blood to the extremities is limited, so people lose peripheral vision, hearing, cognitive thought, fine motor skills, and all higher reasoning.
Most Local/State laws have some manner of Good Samaritan laws in place to protect civilians from liability from taking reasonable actions to aid the injured. Need to check with your area to see what your laws are.
You need laws for this?
YES! People have been sued for doing chest compressions/rescue breathing and Heimlich.4 -
I LITERALLY just called an ambulance for my dad (who lives in a different state), b/c he called me at 530am...incoherent and has a history of strokes.
The Deputy on scene called me back and confirmed that he refused transport; the EMS did an on scene evaluation, and they assessed that he did not need transport.
Better safe than sorry. You would feel terrible if you found out someone died from injuries that could have been treated.5 -
Wow what a strange dilemma.
In France it is a criminal offence if you dont give aid.
And of course your insurance will cover all medical bills.
The poor or unisured, will receive treatment paid mostly by the State.
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I might chime in....
I am American and proud to be an American. But, I find it somewhat funny that we are worried about "legal issues" with this type of situation. And, then on top of that, civil liability.
The OP did the right thing. Absolutely. I mean, you never know and there could be internal injuries that we can not see/readily identify. And we all have likely seen someone in shock before....they can NOT make any decisions. How badly would you feel if you did nothing and something bad happened to that person, something that *could* have been avoided?
I am admittedly ignorant as to the laws here (in North Carolina) as to who pays for what but I have seen - three different times - a person faint or pass out and someone did the right thing and called 911 and the Police and EMT came and - in each event - the person denied service. Their reason (in all three cases): I ain't paying that bill!
So, is this a medical system issue or a legal issue? Or, both?
I don't have that answer. Or, any answer, for that matter. I am more conservative in nature *BUT* I did live in Germany for several years. Not sure. I just find it a bit silly that we are worried about legal responsibility here. And, not picking on the OP. Absolutely not. She absolutely did the right thing. To me, that should not even be a question as to what to do (you call 100 times out of 100 - without hesitation or being prompted to do something....seconds can make a difference).
So, this is a very interesting thread to me.
I grew up in California and I know of a lot of EMT Service Providers that go out of business because no one ever pays. Not siding with them....just sharing that information.
I really and truly look forward to other's comments....0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »You absolutely have the right to activate emergency response, but in this case the patient went to the hospital on their own. You did well - please continue to do so.
People in accidents (or any traumatic event) are rarely in their right minds due to the body's response to trauma. Blood to the extremities is limited, so people lose peripheral vision, hearing, cognitive thought, fine motor skills, and all higher reasoning.
Most Local/State laws have some manner of Good Samaritan laws in place to protect civilians from liability from taking reasonable actions to aid the injured. Need to check with your area to see what your laws are.
You need laws for this?
YES! People have been sued for doing chest compressions/rescue breathing and Heimlich.
Jeez......!0 -
Not only can you do so, but you really ought to do so as a witness to a criminal act resulting in the injury of a person. The police and medical emergency responders both will be notified when you call 911.
An accident is not necessarily "criminal." You can be liable and civilly responsible for an accident without having committed an actual crime.
I'm pretty sure anyone who hits a pedestrian with a vehicle is going to get cited for something. Whether it's criminal or civil is for the police to decide, but they need to be notified. And as others have said, a person in shock is not in a position to clearly evaluate their medical need.2 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »You absolutely have the right to activate emergency response, but in this case the patient went to the hospital on their own. You did well - please continue to do so.
People in accidents (or any traumatic event) are rarely in their right minds due to the body's response to trauma. Blood to the extremities is limited, so people lose peripheral vision, hearing, cognitive thought, fine motor skills, and all higher reasoning.
Most Local/State laws have some manner of Good Samaritan laws in place to protect civilians from liability from taking reasonable actions to aid the injured. Need to check with your area to see what your laws are.
You need laws for this?
YES! People have been sued for doing chest compressions/rescue breathing and Heimlich.
Jeez......!
Sad but true - this is one of the primary drivers of healthcare costs in the US as 40-60% of a frontline healthcare professional's income goes to liability insurance.4 -
He was probably afraid of going bankrupt from the medical bills. Several years ago, a family member of mine received a bill for $2,400 for a ride to the hospital - less than 1.5 miles away from his house. And that's small change compared to the price of the ER visit...
You're right he was probably afraid of the bills, however he wasn't liable and was probably in no shape to determine that. Were it me, I'd have dialed 911, reported the accident and let the police decide. You can tell the 911 dispatcher that the person is refusing an ambulance and let them determine the best course of action. The ambulance ride isn't cheap, but it's something he'll get a bill for later. However, the person that hit him is liable for everything, with their insurance and a police report he should have to pay nothing. Just my .02. Next time dial 911.5 -
op, just to say i like your consideration for the guy's global picture even while you were so concerned about his safety/health. can't say anything about the legalities in america though.
in canada ambulance is a private service, NOT covered as a 'doctor or hospital service'. so an unexpected 85 bucks can be a big surprise to some people's budget.0 -
canadianlbs wrote: »op, just to say i like your consideration for the guy's global picture even while you were so concerned about his safety/health. can't say anything about the legalities in america though.
in canada ambulance is a private service, NOT covered as a 'doctor or hospital service'. so an unexpected 85 bucks can be a big surprise to some people's budget.
I wish it were only $85!1 -
canadianlbs wrote: »op, just to say i like your consideration for the guy's global picture even while you were so concerned about his safety/health. can't say anything about the legalities in america though.
in canada ambulance is a private service, NOT covered as a 'doctor or hospital service'. so an unexpected 85 bucks can be a big surprise to some people's budget.
An ambulance ride is $85 in Canada? In the U.S., the absolute minimum would be somewhere in the $400-$500 range. And that's if they just walk you to the ambulance, lay you on a gurney and give you a ride straight to the hospital. If there's any level of medical care/life support rendered in the ambulance along the way, the cost goes up exponentially. And if you have to be medevac'ed by air (helicopter), figure on a bare minimum of $2000-$2500.1 -
An ambulance ride is $85 in Canada?
far as i know. not like i've had to make a habit of riding in them, touch wood. i should probably have said 'in my province' since idek if it varies by that.
in any case, my point was just that i liked the op for thinking about the poor guy's global life regardless of what the specific price-tag would be where he is.
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NorthCascades wrote: »He stopped to let me go first, but he had the right of way, so I waved him to go.
Not trying to distract from the original question, but just as an FYI, in some states you can be held liable if you wave someone on and an accident occurs after.
http://www.startribune.com/when-facing-traffic-a-friendly-wave-can-be-deadly/381831081/
http://www.allenandallen.com/blog/can-i-be-successfully-sued-for-waving-a-car-in-front-of-me.html
https://www.bicycling.com/rides/safety-etiquette/to-wave-or-not-to-wave-courtesy-riding-and-traffic-laws
http://www.pavlacklawfirm.com/blog/2012/03/23/think-before-you-wave-784495 -
You can call but they can refuse care. If a person is passed out then it’s considered implied consent.0
This discussion has been closed.
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