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Keto means not counting calories
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Wendyanneroberts wrote: »Would just like to apologise to cessi909, I got side tracked and referred my comments to op, when really my comments were made to losinandmovin, points of view. (It's late and I'm tired). Sorry.
In reference to actual opening paragraph, kept can be a good way to eat and lose weight. But at the end of the day, it all
boils down to CICO. People can still gain weight on a keto diet, if they are still over eating.
Not a worry at all! I appreciate the conversation and had some points I brought up to the woman I was first speaking to but she has now told me “good day” and apparently we are no longer speaking
3 -
soufauxgirl wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I’m posting this to also help settle a debate between me and another woman.
When you are on keto and in ketosis you do not need to count/worry about calories since your body is switching fuel sources?
OR
You lose weight on keto because your CI is lower than CO? If your CI are too high, regardless of ketosis, you’ll gain weight.
@cessi909 both statements are correct personally I have found over the past three years. I have eaten all that I wanted for three years without any regular counting/weighing but did work to keep carb count under 50 grams a day and lost another 40 pounds. Yes I stuffed my face and never went hungry and lost weight over the past 3 years and gained muscle mass and general health improvements.
After I left added sugar and all forms of all grains cold turkey Oct 2014 my carb cravings stopped after the first 30 days so did the binging on processed carbs which could hit 4000-5000 calories on binge days. Weight loss did not start until day 45 of this new WOE.
When CI decreases and CO stays the same one will either loss weight or gain weight at a slower rate. What CICO never told me was what macro to eat to lose weight. When I accidently wound up on a LCHF WOE I lost my high levels of pain then I started losing fat.
Tell the other woman she is right and then she may listen to your right statement.
Finding the causes of our overeating is job #1. Counting calories does help reduce obesity as we work to learn the macro(s) that help address our cause(s) of overeating automatically.
Ok, but again you conflate CICO with specific programs of weight loss. Most people also don't have a problem with macros, they have a problem with calories that come from those macros.
The vast majority of people have lost weight though out the years without even knowing much about macros, let alone counting them specifically. Some people it does help to have a certain macro range but for most people it means little in order to lose weight.
True. Not finding the macro(s) that worked often is the reason masses of the big losers are even bigger regainers. Reread the OP to better understand the source of your conflatuation confusion.
I'm one who doesn't pay much attention to macros - I keep an eye toward Protein but never look at carbs or fat. I've lost weight and kept it off for a few years - not planning on regaining but if I do it won't be because I didn't find the "macro" that worked for me. The main reason people gain weight back is that they let the equation tip back toward CI>CO. This can be for so many reasons - stop tracking calories, become more Sedentary, think they can go back to eating the way they did before losing weight, etc.
Your focus on everyone finding a particular "macro" that works for them ignores the fact that the vast majority of people don't need to have one particular macro nutrient dramatically higher than others for health or satiety. You can eat moderate carbs, moderate fat and moderate protein and be just fine - healthy and happy even. Many of us here are evidence of just that.
I agree with you.since we are saying the same thing. There are a million ways to eat and be healthy. I can only figure out what works for me and I have never told another how to think, eat and move.
And no matter what method out of the one million ways you choose to eat and be healthy does not negate the fact that CICO still applies when pursuing weight loss.
For the record and since you are so passionate on the subject of attaining improved health markers, I have managed to reverse my diabetes and my chronic anaemia without having to resort to drastic measures such as keto or cutting out sugar dramatically and yes despite not monitoring macros/micros at all. My success came from eating within my calorie allotment and that's it. My health problems arose because I just darn well ate too much it's that simple really.
Glad we are in agreement about finding a Way Of Eating that may reverse our health issues.16 -
Wendyanneroberts wrote: »Would just like to apologise to cessi909, I got side tracked and referred my comments to op, when really my comments were made to losinandmovin, points of view. (It's late and I'm tired). Sorry.
In reference to actual opening paragraph, kept can be a good way to eat and lose weight. But at the end of the day, it all
boils down to CICO. People can still gain weight on a keto diet, if they are still over eating.
Not a worry at all! I appreciate the conversation and had some points I brought up to the woman I was first speaking to but she has now told me “good day” and apparently we are no longer speaking
that ytpically happens when you DARE to provide an alternate POV to someone who is extremely passionate - they can't bare to acknowledge that someone might disagree with them12 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I’m posting this to also help settle a debate between me and another woman.
When you are on keto and in ketosis you do not need to count/worry about calories since your body is switching fuel sources?
OR
You lose weight on keto because your CI is lower than CO? If your CI are too high, regardless of ketosis, you’ll gain weight.
@cessi909 both statements are correct personally I have found over the past three years. I have eaten all that I wanted for three years without any regular counting/weighing but did work to keep carb count under 50 grams a day and lost another 40 pounds. Yes I stuffed my face and never went hungry and lost weight over the past 3 years and gained muscle mass and general health improvements.
After I left added sugar and all forms of all grains cold turkey Oct 2014 my carb cravings stopped after the first 30 days so did the binging on processed carbs which could hit 4000-5000 calories on binge days. Weight loss did not start until day 45 of this new WOE.
When CI decreases and CO stays the same one will either loss weight or gain weight at a slower rate. What CICO never told me was what macro to eat to lose weight. When I accidently wound up on a LCHF WOE I lost my high levels of pain then I started losing fat.
Tell the other woman she is right and then she may listen to your right statement.
Finding the causes of our overeating is job #1. Counting calories does help reduce obesity as we work to learn the macro(s) that help address our cause(s) of overeating automatically.
Ok, but again you conflate CICO with specific programs of weight loss. Most people also don't have a problem with macros, they have a problem with calories that come from those macros.
The vast majority of people have lost weight though out the years without even knowing much about macros, let alone counting them specifically. Some people it does help to have a certain macro range but for most people it means little in order to lose weight.
True. Not finding the macro(s) that worked often is the reason masses of the big losers are even bigger regainers. Reread the OP to better understand the source of your conflatuation confusion.
I'm one who doesn't pay much attention to macros - I keep an eye toward Protein but never look at carbs or fat. I've lost weight and kept it off for a few years - not planning on regaining but if I do it won't be because I didn't find the "macro" that worked for me. The main reason people gain weight back is that they let the equation tip back toward CI>CO. This can be for so many reasons - stop tracking calories, become more Sedentary, think they can go back to eating the way they did before losing weight, etc.
Your focus on everyone finding a particular "macro" that works for them ignores the fact that the vast majority of people don't need to have one particular macro nutrient dramatically higher than others for health or satiety. You can eat moderate carbs, moderate fat and moderate protein and be just fine - healthy and happy even. Many of us here are evidence of just that.
I agree with you.since we are saying the same thing. There are a million ways to eat and be healthy. I can only figure out what works for me and I have never told another how to think, eat and move.
And no matter what method out of the one million ways you choose to eat and be healthy does not negate the fact that CICO still applies when pursuing weight loss.
For the record and since you are so passionate on the subject of attaining improved health markers, I have managed to reverse my diabetes and my chronic anaemia without having to resort to drastic measures such as keto or cutting out sugar dramatically and yes despite not monitoring macros/micros at all. My success came from eating within my calorie allotment and that's it. My health problems arose because I just darn well ate too much it's that simple really.
Glad we are in agreement about finding a Way Of Eating that may reverse our health issues.
Which part are you and they in agreement on? They didn't say anything about "finding your macro". They are saying no matter what dietary method one uses, it still comes down to CICO for weight loss. To apply that, your own weight loss and health marker improvement was all about CICO and not finding some special macro. So, you agree?8 -
WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I’m posting this to also help settle a debate between me and another woman.
When you are on keto and in ketosis you do not need to count/worry about calories since your body is switching fuel sources?
OR
You lose weight on keto because your CI is lower than CO? If your CI are too high, regardless of ketosis, you’ll gain weight.
@cessi909 both statements are correct personally I have found over the past three years. I have eaten all that I wanted for three years without any regular counting/weighing but did work to keep carb count under 50 grams a day and lost another 40 pounds. Yes I stuffed my face and never went hungry and lost weight over the past 3 years and gained muscle mass and general health improvements.
After I left added sugar and all forms of all grains cold turkey Oct 2014 my carb cravings stopped after the first 30 days so did the binging on processed carbs which could hit 4000-5000 calories on binge days. Weight loss did not start until day 45 of this new WOE.
When CI decreases and CO stays the same one will either loss weight or gain weight at a slower rate. What CICO never told me was what macro to eat to lose weight. When I accidently wound up on a LCHF WOE I lost my high levels of pain then I started losing fat.
Tell the other woman she is right and then she may listen to your right statement.
Finding the causes of our overeating is job #1. Counting calories does help reduce obesity as we work to learn the macro(s) that help address our cause(s) of overeating automatically.
Ok, but again you conflate CICO with specific programs of weight loss. Most people also don't have a problem with macros, they have a problem with calories that come from those macros.
The vast majority of people have lost weight though out the years without even knowing much about macros, let alone counting them specifically. Some people it does help to have a certain macro range but for most people it means little in order to lose weight.
True. Not finding the macro(s) that worked often is the reason masses of the big losers are even bigger regainers. Reread the OP to better understand the source of your conflatuation confusion.
I'm one who doesn't pay much attention to macros - I keep an eye toward Protein but never look at carbs or fat. I've lost weight and kept it off for a few years - not planning on regaining but if I do it won't be because I didn't find the "macro" that worked for me. The main reason people gain weight back is that they let the equation tip back toward CI>CO. This can be for so many reasons - stop tracking calories, become more Sedentary, think they can go back to eating the way they did before losing weight, etc.
Your focus on everyone finding a particular "macro" that works for them ignores the fact that the vast majority of people don't need to have one particular macro nutrient dramatically higher than others for health or satiety. You can eat moderate carbs, moderate fat and moderate protein and be just fine - healthy and happy even. Many of us here are evidence of just that.
I agree with you.since we are saying the same thing. There are a million ways to eat and be healthy. I can only figure out what works for me and I have never told another how to think, eat and move.
Just to be clear, since you think we are in agreement - what I am saying is that CICO is the fundamental scientific principle of weight loss. It is not a diet, or a religion, it is simple math. People can be successful just by understanding how CICO impacts their energy balance requirements - and many people become overweight in the first place because they don't understand CICO and how to manipulate that energy balance to their advantage - not because we all have some underlying disorder.
There are a number of ways of eating which enable someone to be successful at achieving their CICO balance and can provide nutrition, satiety, and perhaps in some cases other health benefits from eating in a particular way. But it isn't all about a particular macro for many people.
True many people can eat anything. I did that for 63 years before I lucked upon what is best for me to eat for better health at this point in time.
Most who have ever went on a diet and lost as much as 5 pounds understand CICO at some level I expect.16 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I’m posting this to also help settle a debate between me and another woman.
When you are on keto and in ketosis you do not need to count/worry about calories since your body is switching fuel sources?
OR
You lose weight on keto because your CI is lower than CO? If your CI are too high, regardless of ketosis, you’ll gain weight.
@cessi909 both statements are correct personally I have found over the past three years. I have eaten all that I wanted for three years without any regular counting/weighing but did work to keep carb count under 50 grams a day and lost another 40 pounds. Yes I stuffed my face and never went hungry and lost weight over the past 3 years and gained muscle mass and general health improvements.
After I left added sugar and all forms of all grains cold turkey Oct 2014 my carb cravings stopped after the first 30 days so did the binging on processed carbs which could hit 4000-5000 calories on binge days. Weight loss did not start until day 45 of this new WOE.
When CI decreases and CO stays the same one will either loss weight or gain weight at a slower rate. What CICO never told me was what macro to eat to lose weight. When I accidently wound up on a LCHF WOE I lost my high levels of pain then I started losing fat.
Tell the other woman she is right and then she may listen to your right statement.
Finding the causes of our overeating is job #1. Counting calories does help reduce obesity as we work to learn the macro(s) that help address our cause(s) of overeating automatically.
Ok, but again you conflate CICO with specific programs of weight loss. Most people also don't have a problem with macros, they have a problem with calories that come from those macros.
The vast majority of people have lost weight though out the years without even knowing much about macros, let alone counting them specifically. Some people it does help to have a certain macro range but for most people it means little in order to lose weight.
True. Not finding the macro(s) that worked often is the reason masses of the big losers are even bigger regainers. Reread the OP to better understand the source of your conflatuation confusion.
I'm one who doesn't pay much attention to macros - I keep an eye toward Protein but never look at carbs or fat. I've lost weight and kept it off for a few years - not planning on regaining but if I do it won't be because I didn't find the "macro" that worked for me. The main reason people gain weight back is that they let the equation tip back toward CI>CO. This can be for so many reasons - stop tracking calories, become more Sedentary, think they can go back to eating the way they did before losing weight, etc.
Your focus on everyone finding a particular "macro" that works for them ignores the fact that the vast majority of people don't need to have one particular macro nutrient dramatically higher than others for health or satiety. You can eat moderate carbs, moderate fat and moderate protein and be just fine - healthy and happy even. Many of us here are evidence of just that.
I agree with you.since we are saying the same thing. There are a million ways to eat and be healthy. I can only figure out what works for me and I have never told another how to think, eat and move.
Just to be clear, since you think we are in agreement - what I am saying is that CICO is the fundamental scientific principle of weight loss. It is not a diet, or a religion, it is simple math. People can be successful just by understanding how CICO impacts their energy balance requirements - and many people become overweight in the first place because they don't understand CICO and how to manipulate that energy balance to their advantage - not because we all have some underlying disorder.
There are a number of ways of eating which enable someone to be successful at achieving their CICO balance and can provide nutrition, satiety, and perhaps in some cases other health benefits from eating in a particular way. But it isn't all about a particular macro for many people.
True many people can eat anything. I did that for 63 years before I lucked upon what is best for me to eat for better health at this point in time.
Most who have ever went on a diet and lost as much as 5 pounds understand CICO at some level I expect.
Did you read this thread? There is a poster in here who believes that eating Keto means that you can eat AT your TDEE and lose weight, that CICO is not in play because Keto trumps it.
So no, I don't believe that everyone in the world understands CICO.
14 -
Sorry but the rules of science don't disappear because you are on keto. If you're eating at TDEE, then you'd maintain your weight. You CAN'T lose energy from the body (weight loss) if there isn't a deficit and vice versa. It's like saying you put money in your mattress and spend the same amount you put under it daily, yet you keep losing more money. Unless there's some pixie or elf taking it (unlikely), you're actually eating less than you burn.Losinandmovin wrote: »I've been keto for the past 4 months: I don't pay any attention to calories. I eat at my TDEE: 2200/day and continue to lose weight. It's NOT calories in/calories out. I belong to several Facebook keto groups and many of my friends on this site are doing keto and post their food diaries. Most of us eat at our TDEE-- that's a shitload of calories. I don't exercise-- many do. I continuously lose. So do almost all my keto contacts. I'm working with my endocrinologist. I'm not diabetic and don't want to be--so this works for MANY people. People are comfortable with CICO. But ultimately, when you look at the success rates of low calorie diets: they don't work for over 90% of people long term. We've been taught our whole lives to eat less, exercise more. Keto throws that to the wind. Eat fewer carbohydrates, but EAT. We are never hungry: which low calories diets cannot claim. You can certainly add exercise: we all need it for well being, muscle strength and endurance, and basic life. I won't argue that. But I will argue and I have plenty who will back me up: keto is not CICO.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
10 -
Anecdotes aren't evidence. It's basically why people don't really believe in Bigfoot and the Lochness monster even though there are a ton of people who "experienced" seeing them.Losinandmovin wrote: »Losinandmovin wrote: »I've been keto for the past 4 months: [1] I don't pay any attention to calories. I eat at my TDEE: 2200/day and continue to lose weight. It's NOT calories in/calories out. I belong to several Facebook keto groups and many of my friends on this site are doing keto and post their food diaries. Most of us eat at our TDEE-- that's a shitload of calories. I don't exercise-- many do. I continuously lose. So do almost all my keto contacts. I'm working with my endocrinologist. I'm not diabetic and don't want to be--so this works for MANY people. People are comfortable with CICO. But ultimately, when you look at the success rates of low calorie diets: they don't work for over 90% of people long term. We've been taught our whole lives to eat less, exercise more. [3] Keto throws that to the wind. Eat fewer carbohydrates, but EAT. [4] We are never hungry: which low calories diets cannot claim. You can certainly add exercise: we all need it for well being, muscle strength and endurance, and basic life. I won't argue that. But I will argue and I have plenty who will back me up: keto is not CICO.
[1] If you don't pay any attention to calories, how do you know you're eating at your TDEE?
[2] Feel free to post any legitimate studies/statistics showing a higher long term success rate with keto over any other diet.
[3] No, keto does not throw CICO to the wind. This is an example of the ridiculous claims made in keto propaganda. There have been countless scientific studies conclusively proving that energy balance is the driver of weight loss/gain/maintenance.
[4] More keto propaganda woo. There are plenty of people eating non-keto, calorie-restricted diets who enjoy excellent satiety. That it works for you doesn't mean that it works for everyone.
Keto
Is
Not
Magic.
AnvilHead, you don't have to agree, but these are my experiences.
Well then math likely wasn't your best subject in school. Explain how stored calories are utilized IF you're consuming more calories than your body burns?But I do know that people do not have to eat at a deficit to lose on keto. know
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
14 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »Wendyanneroberts wrote: »Would just like to apologise to cessi909, I got side tracked and referred my comments to op, when really my comments were made to losinandmovin, points of view. (It's late and I'm tired). Sorry.
In reference to actual opening paragraph, kept can be a good way to eat and lose weight. But at the end of the day, it all
boils down to CICO. People can still gain weight on a keto diet, if they are still over eating.
Not a worry at all! I appreciate the conversation and had some points I brought up to the woman I was first speaking to but she has now told me “good day” and apparently we are no longer speaking
that ytpically happens when you DARE to provide an alternate POV to someone who is extremely passionate - they can't bare to acknowledge that someone might disagree with them
What? I can't hear you, I've got my fingers in my ears and I'm humming.
This is frustrating for keto people who do "get it." There's always someone who comes in an starts dropping keto-woo and makes all of them look bad.
I was keto for 1.5 years. The first 3 months I only counted carbs and then I stalled and could not lose any more. What happened next? I came to MFP to count my darn calories. I started losing again, and continued to finally lose the other 50ish pounds. I was so low-carb I should have taken home the keto-trophy, but was still eating too much. Ketosis does not guarantee weight loss. Period. The End.30 -
Someone referenced in either an earlier reply on this post or another (of the many) keto posts recently about keto being around for a long time as a way to control epilepsy. That is absolutely true. One of my godsons is severely epileptic, and keto is the only thing that has controlled his epilepsy for many years now. And guess what? He is overweight. Unfortunately his mental and physical disabilities prevent most independent physical activity and his caloric needs are so low that it is virtually impossible for him to eat any less than maintenance and also maintain a keto diet without being very hungry. If keto were really some magic diet where calories don't matter, he certainly would not be overweight.
I'm not a keto hater at all because of how I've seen it help my godson. I also think it's great if people are able to use it to lose weight, and even better if it is a diet they can maintain long term. But, all the posts about people touting it as some sort of magic diet where CICO suddenly doesn't apply are driving me nuts and I know from my personal experience that keto is not for everyone.21 -
baconslave wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »Wendyanneroberts wrote: »Would just like to apologise to cessi909, I got side tracked and referred my comments to op, when really my comments were made to losinandmovin, points of view. (It's late and I'm tired). Sorry.
In reference to actual opening paragraph, kept can be a good way to eat and lose weight. But at the end of the day, it all
boils down to CICO. People can still gain weight on a keto diet, if they are still over eating.
Not a worry at all! I appreciate the conversation and had some points I brought up to the woman I was first speaking to but she has now told me “good day” and apparently we are no longer speaking
that ytpically happens when you DARE to provide an alternate POV to someone who is extremely passionate - they can't bare to acknowledge that someone might disagree with them
What? I can't hear you, I've got my fingers in my ears and I'm humming.
This is frustrating for keto people who do "get it." There's always someone who comes in an starts dropping keto-woo and makes all of them look bad.
I was keto for 1.5 years. The first 3 months I only counted carbs and then I stalled and could not lose any more. What happened next? I came to MFP to count my darn calories. I started losing again, and continued to finally lose the other 50ish pounds. I was so low-carb I should have taken home the keto-trophy, but was still eating too much. Ketosis does not guarantee weight loss. Period. The End.
I agree, I have never had an issue with the low carb/keto diets for those who see them as the best way to achieve their goals. I don't think most people here would see them as a bad thing either for those who want that as their macro balance to achieve their caloric deficits. The problem always comes in when you get into the quasi-religious dogma wars. I've seen a ton of diets come and go and I just do my thing, and if people want to try something else that's great, I just would like to see more understanding of what is really going on. It doesn't do anyone any good to "believe" in a diet as the only way because it tends to rebound on them when they have breaks from that diet and then feel guilty. This isn't a healthy way to approach your eating in my view even if the diet itself is a good one.9 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »baconslave wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »Wendyanneroberts wrote: »Would just like to apologise to cessi909, I got side tracked and referred my comments to op, when really my comments were made to losinandmovin, points of view. (It's late and I'm tired). Sorry.
In reference to actual opening paragraph, kept can be a good way to eat and lose weight. But at the end of the day, it all
boils down to CICO. People can still gain weight on a keto diet, if they are still over eating.
Not a worry at all! I appreciate the conversation and had some points I brought up to the woman I was first speaking to but she has now told me “good day” and apparently we are no longer speaking
that ytpically happens when you DARE to provide an alternate POV to someone who is extremely passionate - they can't bare to acknowledge that someone might disagree with them
What? I can't hear you, I've got my fingers in my ears and I'm humming.
This is frustrating for keto people who do "get it." There's always someone who comes in an starts dropping keto-woo and makes all of them look bad.
I was keto for 1.5 years. The first 3 months I only counted carbs and then I stalled and could not lose any more. What happened next? I came to MFP to count my darn calories. I started losing again, and continued to finally lose the other 50ish pounds. I was so low-carb I should have taken home the keto-trophy, but was still eating too much. Ketosis does not guarantee weight loss. Period. The End.
I agree, I have never had an issue with the low carb/keto diets for those who see them as the best way to achieve their goals. I don't think most people here would see them as a bad thing either for those who want that as their macro balance to achieve their caloric deficits. The problem always comes in when you get into the quasi-religious dogma wars. I've seen a ton of diets come and go and I just do my thing, and if people want to try something else that's great, I just would like to see more understanding of what is really going on. It doesn't do anyone any good to "believe" in a diet as the only way because it tends to rebound on them when they have breaks from that diet and then feel guilty. This isn't a healthy way to approach your eating in my view even if the diet itself is a good one.
Cosigned!5 -
Someone referenced in either an earlier reply on this post or another (of the many) keto posts recently about keto being around for a long time as a way to control epilepsy. That is absolutely true. One of my godsons is severely epileptic, and keto is the only thing that has controlled his epilepsy for many years now. And guess what? He is overweight. Unfortunately his mental and physical disabilities prevent most independent physical activity and his caloric needs are so low that it is virtually impossible for him to eat any less than maintenance and also maintain a keto diet without being very hungry. If keto were really some magic diet where calories don't matter, he certainly would not be overweight.
I'm not a keto hater at all because of how I've seen it help my godson. I also think it's great if people are able to use it to lose weight, and even better if it is a diet they can maintain long term. But, all the posts about people touting it as some sort of magic diet where CICO suddenly doesn't apply are driving me nuts and I know from my personal experience that keto is not for everyone.
Thankfully for him the keto diet has evolved. If you look at the original keto diet for epilepsy it's pretty depressing. Keto diets have also shown some promise in treating/controlling some other conditions like type B3 lactate acidosis.5 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I’m posting this to also help settle a debate between me and another woman.
When you are on keto and in ketosis you do not need to count/worry about calories since your body is switching fuel sources?
OR
You lose weight on keto because your CI is lower than CO? If your CI are too high, regardless of ketosis, you’ll gain weight.
@cessi909 both statements are correct personally I have found over the past three years. I have eaten all that I wanted for three years without any regular counting/weighing but did work to keep carb count under 50 grams a day and lost another 40 pounds. Yes I stuffed my face and never went hungry and lost weight over the past 3 years and gained muscle mass and general health improvements.
After I left added sugar and all forms of all grains cold turkey Oct 2014 my carb cravings stopped after the first 30 days so did the binging on processed carbs which could hit 4000-5000 calories on binge days. Weight loss did not start until day 45 of this new WOE.
When CI decreases and CO stays the same one will either loss weight or gain weight at a slower rate. What CICO never told me was what macro to eat to lose weight. When I accidently wound up on a LCHF WOE I lost my high levels of pain then I started losing fat.
Tell the other woman she is right and then she may listen to your right statement.
Finding the causes of our overeating is job #1. Counting calories does help reduce obesity as we work to learn the macro(s) that help address our cause(s) of overeating automatically.
Ok, but again you conflate CICO with specific programs of weight loss. Most people also don't have a problem with macros, they have a problem with calories that come from those macros.
The vast majority of people have lost weight though out the years without even knowing much about macros, let alone counting them specifically. Some people it does help to have a certain macro range but for most people it means little in order to lose weight.
True. Not finding the macro(s) that worked often is the reason masses of the big losers are even bigger regainers. Reread the OP to better understand the source of your conflatuation confusion.
I'm one who doesn't pay much attention to macros - I keep an eye toward Protein but never look at carbs or fat. I've lost weight and kept it off for a few years - not planning on regaining but if I do it won't be because I didn't find the "macro" that worked for me. The main reason people gain weight back is that they let the equation tip back toward CI>CO. This can be for so many reasons - stop tracking calories, become more Sedentary, think they can go back to eating the way they did before losing weight, etc.
Your focus on everyone finding a particular "macro" that works for them ignores the fact that the vast majority of people don't need to have one particular macro nutrient dramatically higher than others for health or satiety. You can eat moderate carbs, moderate fat and moderate protein and be just fine - healthy and happy even. Many of us here are evidence of just that.
I agree with you.since we are saying the same thing. There are a million ways to eat and be healthy. I can only figure out what works for me and I have never told another how to think, eat and move.
Just to be clear, since you think we are in agreement - what I am saying is that CICO is the fundamental scientific principle of weight loss. It is not a diet, or a religion, it is simple math. People can be successful just by understanding how CICO impacts their energy balance requirements - and many people become overweight in the first place because they don't understand CICO and how to manipulate that energy balance to their advantage - not because we all have some underlying disorder.
There are a number of ways of eating which enable someone to be successful at achieving their CICO balance and can provide nutrition, satiety, and perhaps in some cases other health benefits from eating in a particular way. But it isn't all about a particular macro for many people.
True many people can eat anything. I did that for 63 years before I lucked upon what is best for me to eat for better health at this point in time.
Human diets are incredibly variable when it comes to macros, and there's no indication that the macros play a role in how healthful they are. There's also no evidence that people on traditional diets, whatever the macros (often quite high carb, as with the traditional Okinawa diet) cause people to get fat or be constantly starving (if they have adequate calories) or whatever.
Macros are overrated.6 -
I have done Atkins in the past, and I am thankful to have learned that my body does well when I eat no sugar or starches. I keep my carb count low (at 60g/day) and naturally the balance is to up the protein. And instead of worrying about fat, I just report saturated fat to myself. I don't eat anything with trans fats. I am now at a max of 1450 calories and back at the gym. I know what works for *ME* I just have to stay with it. The gym is a must. So is tracking and support, like MFP.
I have a friend online who touts the glory of a "high fat keto" diet. I think that's insane. If one cuts the carbs, the balance goes to proteins or fats. If one cuts carbs, one burns fat. And still needs 100g of protein every day. The math doesn't work as far as nutrition is concerned.
Fad diets are worth what one can learn from them about how their bodies respond to certain foods. And that's about it. They aren't sustainable.1 -
I have done lower carb for a little over two years. It is only my experience that when I have too many carbs, I feel fluffy and bloated. I eat all the meat and feel fuller longer.
But, I still have to log my food and consistently stay under calories in order to maintain or lose weight.
I have done Keto and never did I think I could just simply eat everything I wanted because CICO is key in my book.
It is just what works for me.7 -
Losinandmovin wrote: »But it works and it's not nearly the fad people think it is.
Sure it works, but more then likely not for the reason you think it works...
6 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »baconslave wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »Wendyanneroberts wrote: »Would just like to apologise to cessi909, I got side tracked and referred my comments to op, when really my comments were made to losinandmovin, points of view. (It's late and I'm tired). Sorry.
In reference to actual opening paragraph, kept can be a good way to eat and lose weight. But at the end of the day, it all
boils down to CICO. People can still gain weight on a keto diet, if they are still over eating.
Not a worry at all! I appreciate the conversation and had some points I brought up to the woman I was first speaking to but she has now told me “good day” and apparently we are no longer speaking
that ytpically happens when you DARE to provide an alternate POV to someone who is extremely passionate - they can't bare to acknowledge that someone might disagree with them
What? I can't hear you, I've got my fingers in my ears and I'm humming.
This is frustrating for keto people who do "get it." There's always someone who comes in an starts dropping keto-woo and makes all of them look bad.
I was keto for 1.5 years. The first 3 months I only counted carbs and then I stalled and could not lose any more. What happened next? I came to MFP to count my darn calories. I started losing again, and continued to finally lose the other 50ish pounds. I was so low-carb I should have taken home the keto-trophy, but was still eating too much. Ketosis does not guarantee weight loss. Period. The End.
I agree, I have never had an issue with the low carb/keto diets for those who see them as the best way to achieve their goals. I don't think most people here would see them as a bad thing either for those who want that as their macro balance to achieve their caloric deficits. The problem always comes in when you get into the quasi-religious dogma wars. I've seen a ton of diets come and go and I just do my thing, and if people want to try something else that's great, I just would like to see more understanding of what is really going on. It doesn't do anyone any good to "believe" in a diet as the only way because it tends to rebound on them when they have breaks from that diet and then feel guilty. This isn't a healthy way to approach your eating in my view even if the diet itself is a good one.
Exactly. When I first began keto 3 years ago, I was a sponge. I saw success quickly and like many others became very passionate about my new WOE, and it's purported merits. Then I stalled and had to come here to count. I read more of the right sources, instead of the fad-ish ones and learned. I became involved in helping to mod the Low Carber group. And now I'm on the other side, trying to keep misinformation out, because I have seen and seen people stumble and struggle based on wrong information.
I myself have gained weight on keto during an experiment with not counting calories for a few months. I do know a few people who don't count calories, because they don't have to. It's not that the calories are irrelevant, it's because their appetites have regulated. That's not the default for everyone though. I still have to count. I always and forever want to eat all the time. So I always and forever need to count.
It's not a religion. It's a strategy. And it works, for some, because it is a tool that helps restrict calories. It can certainly feel like magic to those who stick with it more easily, as it is likely the first thing that has ever, in their memory, been something they can actually stick with, and they began to see real success. So of course they want to scream it from the rooftops. It's hope to them. It may feel magical, but it works based upon certain pathways in human physiology.
Keto itself isn't a fad diet. But it can be used as a fad diet. And it is, increasingly lately. I'd really REALLY like it if people who don't know what they are talking about would not make videos and flood social media with nonsense. Because, over time, it WILL cause people to stumble.
Losinandmovin wrote: »But it works and it's not nearly the fad people think it is.
Sure it works, but more then likely not for the reason you think it works...
And what's on the right-hand side of the graphic, to which all arrows lead?
Lower Intake = CI
Higher Expenditure= CO
25 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I’m posting this to also help settle a debate between me and another woman.
When you are on keto and in ketosis you do not need to count/worry about calories since your body is switching fuel sources?
OR
You lose weight on keto because your CI is lower than CO? If your CI are too high, regardless of ketosis, you’ll gain weight.
@cessi909 both statements are correct personally I have found over the past three years. I have eaten all that I wanted for three years without any regular counting/weighing but did work to keep carb count under 50 grams a day and lost another 40 pounds. Yes I stuffed my face and never went hungry and lost weight over the past 3 years and gained muscle mass and general health improvements.
After I left added sugar and all forms of all grains cold turkey Oct 2014 my carb cravings stopped after the first 30 days so did the binging on processed carbs which could hit 4000-5000 calories on binge days. Weight loss did not start until day 45 of this new WOE.
When CI decreases and CO stays the same one will either loss weight or gain weight at a slower rate. What CICO never told me was what macro to eat to lose weight. When I accidently wound up on a LCHF WOE I lost my high levels of pain then I started losing fat.
Tell the other woman she is right and then she may listen to your right statement.
Finding the causes of our overeating is job #1. Counting calories does help reduce obesity as we work to learn the macro(s) that help address our cause(s) of overeating automatically.
Ok, but again you conflate CICO with specific programs of weight loss. Most people also don't have a problem with macros, they have a problem with calories that come from those macros.
The vast majority of people have lost weight though out the years without even knowing much about macros, let alone counting them specifically. Some people it does help to have a certain macro range but for most people it means little in order to lose weight.
True. Not finding the macro(s) that worked often is the reason masses of the big losers are even bigger regainers. Reread the OP to better understand the source of your conflatuation confusion.
I'm one who doesn't pay much attention to macros - I keep an eye toward Protein but never look at carbs or fat. I've lost weight and kept it off for a few years - not planning on regaining but if I do it won't be because I didn't find the "macro" that worked for me. The main reason people gain weight back is that they let the equation tip back toward CI>CO. This can be for so many reasons - stop tracking calories, become more Sedentary, think they can go back to eating the way they did before losing weight, etc.
Your focus on everyone finding a particular "macro" that works for them ignores the fact that the vast majority of people don't need to have one particular macro nutrient dramatically higher than others for health or satiety. You can eat moderate carbs, moderate fat and moderate protein and be just fine - healthy and happy even. Many of us here are evidence of just that.
I agree with you.since we are saying the same thing. There are a million ways to eat and be healthy. I can only figure out what works for me and I have never told another how to think, eat and move.
Just to be clear, since you think we are in agreement - what I am saying is that CICO is the fundamental scientific principle of weight loss. It is not a diet, or a religion, it is simple math. People can be successful just by understanding how CICO impacts their energy balance requirements - and many people become overweight in the first place because they don't understand CICO and how to manipulate that energy balance to their advantage - not because we all have some underlying disorder.
There are a number of ways of eating which enable someone to be successful at achieving their CICO balance and can provide nutrition, satiety, and perhaps in some cases other health benefits from eating in a particular way. But it isn't all about a particular macro for many people.
True many people can eat anything. I did that for 63 years before I lucked upon what is best for me to eat for better health at this point in time.
Human diets are incredibly variable when it comes to macros, and there's no indication that the macros play a role in how healthful they are. There's also no evidence that people on traditional diets, whatever the macros (often quite high carb, as with the traditional Okinawa diet) cause people to get fat or be constantly starving (if they have adequate calories) or whatever.
Macros are overrated.
Sure diets are incredibly varied as I have stated. Since I am not tracking ketone levels currently I just have to call my macro LCHF to be on the safe side. Finding a macro that is addressing my 40+ year autoimmune health related issues is what makes my WOE special to me at this point in time.
The fact that I can eat all of the calories that I want and still maintain or lose weight without counting calories is a plus but others do report the need to still count calorie and I am sure they are correct when it comes to their bodies.
CICO while it did not fix my carb craving CICO is still a true statement. My current macro is what stopped my carb cravings as long as I do not use sugar or any form of any grain (no highly processed carb based food mainly) and I keep total daily carb count at 50 grams are less.
We are all different and can not state what will or will not work for another human when it comes to different WOE's and be correct all of the time. I could really care less why my macro works for me and not for others because that may even be unknowable. My current macro automates my CICO ratio and it sounds like I am one of the lucky ones in that department.
I use food as my medicine. Food that makes me sicker I just stop eating it. Food that is positive for my longevity and health markers in general is what I try to eat most of the time. Turning 67 in a few weeks I want to have my family trained as to what to feed me if my ability to focus declines to the point I can not think for myself.
My main driving force to learn WOE's that work for me is so if the kids develop the same autoimmune issues (only 20% risk factor) that I have they will know to try my WOE that works for me before they wreck their health eating a wrong for the macro(s) as I did over the past 40 years. Thankfully they have known about CICO for years without input from me.19 -
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