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Keto means not counting calories
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baconslave wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »Wendyanneroberts wrote: »Would just like to apologise to cessi909, I got side tracked and referred my comments to op, when really my comments were made to losinandmovin, points of view. (It's late and I'm tired). Sorry.
In reference to actual opening paragraph, kept can be a good way to eat and lose weight. But at the end of the day, it all
boils down to CICO. People can still gain weight on a keto diet, if they are still over eating.
Not a worry at all! I appreciate the conversation and had some points I brought up to the woman I was first speaking to but she has now told me “good day” and apparently we are no longer speaking
that ytpically happens when you DARE to provide an alternate POV to someone who is extremely passionate - they can't bare to acknowledge that someone might disagree with them
What? I can't hear you, I've got my fingers in my ears and I'm humming.
This is frustrating for keto people who do "get it." There's always someone who comes in an starts dropping keto-woo and makes all of them look bad.
I was keto for 1.5 years. The first 3 months I only counted carbs and then I stalled and could not lose any more. What happened next? I came to MFP to count my darn calories. I started losing again, and continued to finally lose the other 50ish pounds. I was so low-carb I should have taken home the keto-trophy, but was still eating too much. Ketosis does not guarantee weight loss. Period. The End.
Baconslave, I honestly wish you'd post more on the forums because you always present a rational viewpoint for keto.
I just want to say that I appreciate it and find it refreshing. There are others like you who peep up every now and then and I'd wish they'd peep up more often.12 -
baconslave wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »Wendyanneroberts wrote: »Would just like to apologise to cessi909, I got side tracked and referred my comments to op, when really my comments were made to losinandmovin, points of view. (It's late and I'm tired). Sorry.
In reference to actual opening paragraph, kept can be a good way to eat and lose weight. But at the end of the day, it all
boils down to CICO. People can still gain weight on a keto diet, if they are still over eating.
Not a worry at all! I appreciate the conversation and had some points I brought up to the woman I was first speaking to but she has now told me “good day” and apparently we are no longer speaking
that ytpically happens when you DARE to provide an alternate POV to someone who is extremely passionate - they can't bare to acknowledge that someone might disagree with them
What? I can't hear you, I've got my fingers in my ears and I'm humming.
This is frustrating for keto people who do "get it." There's always someone who comes in an starts dropping keto-woo and makes all of them look bad.
I was keto for 1.5 years. The first 3 months I only counted carbs and then I stalled and could not lose any more. What happened next? I came to MFP to count my darn calories. I started losing again, and continued to finally lose the other 50ish pounds. I was so low-carb I should have taken home the keto-trophy, but was still eating too much. Ketosis does not guarantee weight loss. Period. The End.
Thank you very much for giving your honest opinion about the topic.
So often people are more than willing to spread the propaganda even though it doesn't jive with scientific fact. It's refreshing to see you give your take that happens to align with the cold hard facts. It's hard to read all the magical pixie dust that people claim about keto because it really hurts the community as a whole. Newcomers come to learn and when they are instantly bombarded with myth, it really throws a wrench in the learning process. This ain't my first rodeo but for many, it's their first rodeo.
Fwiw I have nothing against any diet as long as people are honest and upfront about it and don't try to claim some magical weight loss wonder. If people like keto , go for it but I hate to see them misguided.
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I have an autoimmune disorder and have been told by ketovangelists that a keto diet can control or even cure said disorder, despite there being NO evidence whatsoever of this, no studies have been done to show this and in fact the only dietary study done in relation to this particular disorder has indicated (only indicated) that a high fat diet may actually speed up degeneration. Didn't matter to these people, they firmly believed it was a cure all. I've also seen people with the same disorder told to go Keto on this forum, and it really irks me.10
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Even though it's a bit off topic, it's not just keto. I don't want the people who really truly understand the reason people lose weight on a low carb diet ( or any diet) to feel like it's a dump fest on them. I am forever seeing people spread myths about all types of dieting. Multi level marketing, vegan, whatever.
The fact remains that any" diet" will work as long as you create a calorie deficit.
8 -
susanbowen2 wrote: »Even though it's a bit off topic, it's not just keto. I don't want the people who really truly understand the reason people lose weight on a low carb diet ( or any diet) to feel like it's a dump fest on them. I am forever seeing people spread myths about all types of dieting. Multi level marketing, vegan, whatever.
The fact remains that any" diet" will work as long as you create a calorie deficit.
correct but not everyone believes that. they read into these gimmicky diets,weight loss products and so on and believe the hype. then when they dont lose or stop losing they give up because they rely on a quick fix. I wish we could get rid of all these bs diets and they need to stop being able to sell these stupid things to gullible/desperate people. if more people could learn that its all about a calorie deficit then maybe one day these things would disappear
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notreallychris wrote: »Losinandmovin wrote: »Losinandmovin wrote: »I've been keto for the past 4 months: [1] I don't pay any attention to calories. I eat at my TDEE: 2200/day and continue to lose weight. It's NOT calories in/calories out. I belong to several Facebook keto groups and many of my friends on this site are doing keto and post their food diaries. Most of us eat at our TDEE-- that's a shitload of calories. I don't exercise-- many do. I continuously lose. So do almost all my keto contacts. I'm working with my endocrinologist. I'm not diabetic and don't want to be--so this works for MANY people. People are comfortable with CICO. But ultimately, when you look at the success rates of low calorie diets: they don't work for over 90% of people long term. We've been taught our whole lives to eat less, exercise more. [3] Keto throws that to the wind. Eat fewer carbohydrates, but EAT. [4] We are never hungry: which low calories diets cannot claim. You can certainly add exercise: we all need it for well being, muscle strength and endurance, and basic life. I won't argue that. But I will argue and I have plenty who will back me up: keto is not CICO.
[1] If you don't pay any attention to calories, how do you know you're eating at your TDEE?
[2] Feel free to post any legitimate studies/statistics showing a higher long term success rate with keto over any other diet.
[3] No, keto does not throw CICO to the wind. This is an example of the ridiculous claims made in keto propaganda. There have been countless scientific studies conclusively proving that energy balance is the driver of weight loss/gain/maintenance.
[4] More keto propaganda woo. There are plenty of people eating non-keto, calorie-restricted diets who enjoy excellent satiety. That it works for you doesn't mean that it works for everyone.
Keto
Is
Not
Magic.
AnvilHead, you don't have to agree, but these are my experiences. Propaganda is for a specific purpose: I have no other purpose than to answer her questions. I don't pay attention to calories: at the end of the day I look and see where I am-- I don't have to try to stay under. Feel free to research how few people maintain weight loss with CICO. Have fun with that.
People (like yourself) are vehemently apposed to keto-- that's fine, it's not for everyone. But it works and it's not nearly the fad people think it is. There are many endocrinologists that would disagree with your claims that CICO is the be all end all. I would never say keto has better success than every other diet: my ego isn't so big that I need to claim things I don't know. But I do know that people do not have to eat at a deficit to lose on keto. I do know food is more of an indicator of how much weight people will lose is than exercise.
Your experience with keto does not make it a fact for everyone. CICO is how you're losing weight. Whether you think it is or not.notreallychris wrote: »Losinandmovin wrote: »Losinandmovin wrote: »I've been keto for the past 4 months: [1] I don't pay any attention to calories. I eat at my TDEE: 2200/day and continue to lose weight. It's NOT calories in/calories out. I belong to several Facebook keto groups and many of my friends on this site are doing keto and post their food diaries. Most of us eat at our TDEE-- that's a shitload of calories. I don't exercise-- many do. I continuously lose. So do almost all my keto contacts. I'm working with my endocrinologist. I'm not diabetic and don't want to be--so this works for MANY people. People are comfortable with CICO. But ultimately, when you look at the success rates of low calorie diets: they don't work for over 90% of people long term. We've been taught our whole lives to eat less, exercise more. [3] Keto throws that to the wind. Eat fewer carbohydrates, but EAT. [4] We are never hungry: which low calories diets cannot claim. You can certainly add exercise: we all need it for well being, muscle strength and endurance, and basic life. I won't argue that. But I will argue and I have plenty who will back me up: keto is not CICO.
[1] If you don't pay any attention to calories, how do you know you're eating at your TDEE?
[2] Feel free to post any legitimate studies/statistics showing a higher long term success rate with keto over any other diet.
[3] No, keto does not throw CICO to the wind. This is an example of the ridiculous claims made in keto propaganda. There have been countless scientific studies conclusively proving that energy balance is the driver of weight loss/gain/maintenance.
[4] More keto propaganda woo. There are plenty of people eating non-keto, calorie-restricted diets who enjoy excellent satiety. That it works for you doesn't mean that it works for everyone.
Keto
Is
Not
Magic.
AnvilHead, you don't have to agree, but these are my experiences. Propaganda is for a specific purpose: I have no other purpose than to answer her questions. I don't pay attention to calories: at the end of the day I look and see where I am-- I don't have to try to stay under. Feel free to research how few people maintain weight loss with CICO. Have fun with that.
People (like yourself) are vehemently apposed to keto-- that's fine, it's not for everyone. But it works and it's not nearly the fad people think it is. There are many endocrinologists that would disagree with your claims that CICO is the be all end all. I would never say keto has better success than every other diet: my ego isn't so big that I need to claim things I don't know. But I do know that people do not have to eat at a deficit to lose on keto. I do know food is more of an indicator of how much weight people will lose is than exercise.
Your experience with keto does not make it a fact for everyone. CICO is how you're losing weight. Whether you think it is or not.
let's not forget that water loss is part of the loss seen in any "keto" diet also. This can lead to dehydration and electrolyte imbalances.0 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »I have an autoimmune disorder and have been told by ketovangelists that a keto diet can control or even cure said disorder, despite there being NO evidence whatsoever of this, no studies have been done to show this and in fact the only dietary study done in relation to this particular disorder has indicated (only indicated) that a high fat diet may actually speed up degeneration. Didn't matter to these people, they firmly believed it was a cure all. I've also seen people with the same disorder told to go Keto on this forum, and it really irks me.
No one should be giving another eating advice in a web forum. Not even a healthcare professional can tell one that any diet can control or even cure any disorder. It boils down to an n=1 self study I found to learn what a diet can or can not to to resolve my autoimmune disorder. If a certain WOE works for one then more power to her but it does not mean it will work for the next person with the same symptoms.16 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »susanbowen2 wrote: »Even though it's a bit off topic, it's not just keto. I don't want the people who really truly understand the reason people lose weight on a low carb diet ( or any diet) to feel like it's a dump fest on them. I am forever seeing people spread myths about all types of dieting. Multi level marketing, vegan, whatever.
The fact remains that any" diet" will work as long as you create a calorie deficit.
correct but not everyone believes that. they read into these gimmicky diets,weight loss products and so on and believe the hype. then when they dont lose or stop losing they give up because they rely on a quick fix. I wish we could get rid of all these bs diets and they need to stop being able to sell these stupid things to gullible/desperate people. if more people could learn that its all about a calorie deficit then maybe one day these things would disappear
That would be great but sadly the diet/ health/ weight loss industry makes billions of dollars selling people on a false hope scam. (I believe that they should be better regulated but that's a different topic)
I don't think we'll ever be able to get rid of the scams and myths fully but it would be nice.4 -
susanbowen2 wrote: »Even though it's a bit off topic, it's not just keto. I don't want the people who really truly understand the reason people lose weight on a low carb diet ( or any diet) to feel like it's a dump fest on them. I am forever seeing people spread myths about all types of dieting. Multi level marketing, vegan, whatever.
The fact remains that any" diet" will work as long as you create a calorie deficit.
Yes you are correct that any diet may work. There are a lot of people looking to trick people out of their money. I found a few years ago keto/lchf sets my appetite to the point where I can eat all that I want and not gain weight or lose muscle yet at the end of the day CICO rules. If I get to the point where I gain weight on my WOE then I will have to look at going back to counting calories and or adjusting my macro that currently is automatically managing my weight.14 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »susanbowen2 wrote: »Even though it's a bit off topic, it's not just keto. I don't want the people who really truly understand the reason people lose weight on a low carb diet ( or any diet) to feel like it's a dump fest on them. I am forever seeing people spread myths about all types of dieting. Multi level marketing, vegan, whatever.
The fact remains that any" diet" will work as long as you create a calorie deficit.
Yes you are correct that any diet may work. There are a lot of people looking to trick people out of their money. I found a few years ago keto/lchf sets my appetite to the point where I can eat all that I want and not gain weight or lose muscle yet at the end of the day CICO rules. If I get to the point where I gain weight on my WOE then I will have to look at going back to counting calories and or adjusting my macro that currently is automatically managing my weight.
FTFY17 -
Weight loss aside Keto can be very beneficial for certain populations and diseases. The basis of this diet can be found in clinical treatment for epilepsy. Newer studies have found the keto diet can help ( NOT cure) people with high blood pressure, osteoarthritis, metabolic syndrome, etc. is it a miricle? No. But the science is quite compelling.
It is not always calories in/calories out. Some people have polymorphisms in their genetics which predispose them to gain weight more easily then others. There are many factors that must be considered when choosing the healthiest diet for any individual: genetics, environment, lifestyle, and activity are just a few.28 -
kbarnardlamb wrote: »I have done Atkins in the past, and I am thankful to have learned that my body does well when I eat no sugar or starches. I keep my carb count low (at 60g/day) and naturally the balance is to up the protein. And instead of worrying about fat, I just report saturated fat to myself. I don't eat anything with trans fats. I am now at a max of 1450 calories and back at the gym. I know what works for *ME* I just have to stay with it. The gym is a must. So is tracking and support, like MFP.
I have a friend online who touts the glory of a "high fat keto" diet. I think that's insane. If one cuts the carbs, the balance goes to proteins or fats. If one cuts carbs, one burns fat. And still needs 100g of protein every day. The math doesn't work as far as nutrition is concerned.
Fad diets are worth what one can learn from them about how their bodies respond to certain foods. And that's about it. They aren't sustainable.
The math actually does work out. To be ketogenic, all you need to be is very low carb, usually under 50g a day although some go higher and some are lower. Most choose moderate protein, which 100g would be for most unless their calories are quite low, The rest is fat.
TBH, if you are active, you might be ketogenic most of the time at about 60g of carbs.4 -
Losinandmovin wrote: »Losinandmovin wrote: »I've been keto for the past 4 months: [1] I don't pay any attention to calories. I eat at my TDEE: 2200/day and continue to lose weight. It's NOT calories in/calories out. I belong to several Facebook keto groups and many of my friends on this site are doing keto and post their food diaries. Most of us eat at our TDEE-- that's a shitload of calories. I don't exercise-- many do. I continuously lose. So do almost all my keto contacts. I'm working with my endocrinologist. I'm not diabetic and don't want to be--so this works for MANY people. People are comfortable with CICO. But ultimately, when you look at the success rates of low calorie diets: they don't work for over 90% of people long term. We've been taught our whole lives to eat less, exercise more. [3] Keto throws that to the wind. Eat fewer carbohydrates, but EAT. [4] We are never hungry: which low calories diets cannot claim. You can certainly add exercise: we all need it for well being, muscle strength and endurance, and basic life. I won't argue that. But I will argue and I have plenty who will back me up: keto is not CICO.
[1] If you don't pay any attention to calories, how do you know you're eating at your TDEE?
[2] Feel free to post any legitimate studies/statistics showing a higher long term success rate with keto over any other diet.
[3] No, keto does not throw CICO to the wind. This is an example of the ridiculous claims made in keto propaganda. There have been countless scientific studies conclusively proving that energy balance is the driver of weight loss/gain/maintenance.
[4] More keto propaganda woo. There are plenty of people eating non-keto, calorie-restricted diets who enjoy excellent satiety. That it works for you doesn't mean that it works for everyone.
Keto
Is
Not
Magic.
AnvilHead, you don't have to agree, but these are my experiences. Propaganda is for a specific purpose: I have no other purpose than to answer her questions. I don't pay attention to calories: at the end of the day I look and see where I am-- I don't have to try to stay under. Feel free to research how few people maintain weight loss with CICO. Have fun with that.
People (like yourself) are vehemently apposed to keto-- that's fine, it's not for everyone. But it works and it's not nearly the fad people think it is. There are many endocrinologists that would disagree with your claims that CICO is the be all end all. I would never say keto has better success than every other diet: my ego isn't so big that I need to claim things I don't know. But I do know that people do not have to eat at a deficit to lose on keto. I do know food is more of an indicator of how much weight people will lose is than exercise.
Every study done in which calories and protein intake have been controlled (i.e. equal for both groups) have shown NO independent weight or fat-loss benefits of a ketogenic diet.
People are NOT “vehemently opposed to keto”. They are vehemently opposed to the misinformation and false claims made by keto proselytizers.
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BetsyL0426 wrote: »Weight loss aside Keto can be very beneficial for certain populations and diseases. The basis of this diet can be found in clinical treatment for epilepsy. Newer studies have found the keto diet can help ( NOT cure) people with high blood pressure, osteoarthritis, metabolic syndrome, etc. is it a miricle? No. But the science is quite compelling.
It is not always calories in/calories out. Some people have polymorphisms in their genetics which predispose them to gain weight more easily then others. There are many factors that must be considered when choosing the healthiest diet for any individual: genetics, environment, lifestyle, and activity are just a few.
The bolded is true. Keto can help some with health issues but it is like any treatment, drug or surgery: it will work better for some and possibly not at all for others.
Keto helps with some of my autoimmune issues, not much at all with others, and that includes my osteoarthritis, darn it. I wish I was one of those for whom it really did help.
But for weight loss, it does come down to CI<CO. There will be health issues that may affect the CO or CI but it still comes down to consuming less than you need for weight loss. KWIM?6 -
It's not just a matter of how much heat your body can burn, but what fuel you put in your metabolism. I do keto, I don't log and I don't always eat at a deficit, I don't exercise. I only gain weight when my macros are off balance, not calories.
I do agree however, that for most "normal" metabolisms, CICO works. But keto doesn't work solely because it provides with CICO, it also works because it provides other health benefits, which is actually why most people stay on it. One of which is the usage as the body fat for fuel and the production of ketones, which for me and my mental health is the best way of eating possible.
As an example, I have a hard time processing sugar due to meds I take for my mental health that screwed up my metabolism as a side effect. I tried low fat, lost 1 kg, then I tried CICO, lost 3 kg but it was unsustainable for me PERSONALLY, because of the way I metabolize glucose. That doesn't meant CICO doesn't work, it just means it isn't the right method for me.
The bashing on keto is as ridiculous as bashing on CICO. Just because it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean it isn't going to work for another person.32 -
CICO isn't a way of eating, though. It's an energy equation. All weight loss, weight gain, and weight maintenance comes down to CICO. In other words, no matter how you try to lose weight, CICO is involved. And everyone is subject to CICO whether they're aware of it or not.15
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estherdragonbat wrote: »CICO isn't a way of eating, though. It's an energy equation. All weight loss, weight gain, and weight maintenance comes down to CICO. In other words, no matter how you try to lose weight, CICO is involved. And everyone is subject to CICO whether they're aware of it or not.
But there isn't all there is to it. There's also genetics, illnesses, meds, hormones, etc. that affect how CICO does work. If I eat at a caloric deficit but 200g of carbs plus 200g of fat I'll probably don't lose weight.
There isn't a one-size-fits-all method.28 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »CICO isn't a way of eating, though. It's an energy equation. All weight loss, weight gain, and weight maintenance comes down to CICO. In other words, no matter how you try to lose weight, CICO is involved. And everyone is subject to CICO whether they're aware of it or not.
But there isn't all there is to it. There's also genetics, illnesses, meds, hormones, etc. that affect how CICO does work. If I eat at a caloric deficit but 200g of carbs plus 200g of fat I'll probably don't lose weight.
There isn't a one-size-fits-all method.
200g of carbs plus 200g of fat is 2600 calories, and I'm guessing there will be some protein in there. Many won't lose on more than 2600 calories. Some will, but many won't.11 -
Okay, one gram of carbs or protein=4 calories. 1 gram of fat=9. All those factors you mention? They impact either the CI or the CO end of the equation, but it still comes down to how much you take in versus how much you expel. If you're not losing weight over the long haul, you're not eating at a deficit.
Losing weight is all about creating a deficit. There are numerous ways to achieve it, but they all boil down to CICO.
20 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »CICO isn't a way of eating, though. It's an energy equation. All weight loss, weight gain, and weight maintenance comes down to CICO. In other words, no matter how you try to lose weight, CICO is involved. And everyone is subject to CICO whether they're aware of it or not.
But there isn't all there is to it. There's also genetics, illnesses, meds, hormones, etc. that affect how CICO does work. If I eat at a caloric deficit but 200g of carbs plus 200g of fat I'll probably don't lose weight.
There isn't a one-size-fits-all method.
Affecting how CICO works is not the same as CICO not applying. All the factors you mention may affect calories out, but to lose weight, calories out always needs to be less than calories in.11
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