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Keto means not counting calories
Replies
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »baconslave wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »Wendyanneroberts wrote: »Would just like to apologise to cessi909, I got side tracked and referred my comments to op, when really my comments were made to losinandmovin, points of view. (It's late and I'm tired). Sorry.
In reference to actual opening paragraph, kept can be a good way to eat and lose weight. But at the end of the day, it all
boils down to CICO. People can still gain weight on a keto diet, if they are still over eating.
Not a worry at all! I appreciate the conversation and had some points I brought up to the woman I was first speaking to but she has now told me “good day” and apparently we are no longer speaking
that ytpically happens when you DARE to provide an alternate POV to someone who is extremely passionate - they can't bare to acknowledge that someone might disagree with them
What? I can't hear you, I've got my fingers in my ears and I'm humming.
This is frustrating for keto people who do "get it." There's always someone who comes in an starts dropping keto-woo and makes all of them look bad.
I was keto for 1.5 years. The first 3 months I only counted carbs and then I stalled and could not lose any more. What happened next? I came to MFP to count my darn calories. I started losing again, and continued to finally lose the other 50ish pounds. I was so low-carb I should have taken home the keto-trophy, but was still eating too much. Ketosis does not guarantee weight loss. Period. The End.
Baconslave, I honestly wish you'd post more on the forums because you always present a rational viewpoint for keto.
I just want to say that I appreciate it and find it refreshing. There are others like you who peep up every now and then and I'd wish they'd peep up more often.
Thanks. Rationality is needed.
Between modding the LC group, homeschooling my kids (4-one in high school, one mid school, and 2 elementary), getting workouts in and all the BS of life, I don't get to post as much as I'd like. I do read around, and if I feel something MUST be said that no one else is saying, then I make the effort if I can.
The big issue is that someone who has put themselves in a position of authority, whether or not that position is justified via a channel, a blog, or Facebook groups, has told vulnerable people looking for hope these things. And they're still doing it. These misinformed/misled people want to improve themselves. And are looking for a solution. And everyone wants to feel their involvements/efforts are justified. There's nothing wrong with believing in your WOE, but it's important it is for the right reasons. I hope some people have read this thread and been enlightened. I'll still be doing what I can in the group. Someone tagged Anubis to talk about protein the other day. People being scared of protein...
Keto and low-carb were tools I have used to thwart a descent into prediabetes, to lose weight, and improve my health. It works the best so far for me given my preferences, personality, faults, and etc. I'm the healthiest I've ever been and more fit than I was on varsity b-ball in high school. I can thank my perseverance and tools (keto and MFP app) for that. Support from knowledgeable group members was very helpful as well. But keto isn't magic. It didn't stop me from developing Sjogren's. Which is the only reason I left keto. The dryness and fatigue just did not mesh with ketosis. I wish it had, but I'm a realist. Life is hard. Find what works best for you and do that, until it doesn't work any more. Then find something else that works.
Enough babbling on. Things to do. :drinker:11 -
MixedFarmer75 wrote: »Calories in matter. I have only been Keto for 3 weeks, but find it easier than just cutting carbs, and eating low fat. I have been using this app on and off since 2012. When I watch calories I lose weight, but if I don't I go back to my bad habits. The keto is nice because your blood sugars do not fluctuate thus that ravenous feeling never gets overwhelming. I have also noticed that the chronic inflammation in my lower back and knees has decreased almost to zero. As far as weight loss goes, as usual the first 10 lbs come off fast. It is still coming off but slower, although still faster than normal. Have lost 13 lbs over the 3 weeks that I have been watching what I eat. I will say this I seem to be able to eat more calories on Keto and still lose weight. Just my experience. There is solid science behind this keto, it is not a fad. Been around since the 1920's. It is not magic. It is just another tool. For some, especially those that are insulin resistant, find it very helpful.
In any low carb diet, of which Keto is a subtype, you will typically find that people lose 8-10lbs in the first week and this is due to glycogen depletion in the muscles, and since 1lb of glycogen holds an additional 4lbs of water a person will likely have lost a lb or so of fat and the rest LBM. So 13lbs in the first 3 weeks would be a typical result and respectable, but would only mean a loss of 3-4lbs of fat and 9-10lbs of glycogen and water most-likely. A good result for any diet.
Keto has been around for around 100 years but the medical diet of the 20's is not the same as the weight loss diet of today. Really, you should be thankful!
As for insulin sensitivity, that can be drastically improved as soon as a person loses weight and starts to exercise regularly.
I'm not knocking Keto here, just that the benefits are not unique for those who want to lose weight and deal with insulin sensitivity.3 -
@cessi909, feel free to share my experience with your friend. I lost my excess 63 pounds via using MFP and eating at a calorie deficit. CI<CO. After weight loss (nearly 4 years of maintaining) I now eat at maintenance calories per MFP and have successfully maintained. I have altered macros at various times for various reasons during that 4 year period.
A full 52 weeks of that time was eating a Medically Therapeutic Ketogenic Diet (self prescribed) for my neurological movement disorder. I figured if it has a positive in the brain for epilepsy, perhaps it may also be beneficial for my Spasmodic Torticollis aka Cervical Dystonia which is thought to be a malfunction in the basal ganglia of the brain.
Anyway, for 52 weeks I adhered to my 1500 maintenance calories (already proven via 2 years of previous maintenance) by significantly changing my macros to reflect no greater than 20 grams of carbohydrates in addition to low protein so to not exceed 25% of my calories coming from COMBINED carbs and protein. Most days I was eating upwards of 75% of my calories from fat. Towards the end (last 4-5 months) of the trial, I supplemented with MCT oil which is reported to be ketogenic in order to keep my 1500 calories at 75% or above and possibly be "deeper" in ketosis.
I did NOT lose weight or body fat just because I was in ketosis. By design, I maintained. The state of ketosis had NO effect on my weight.
I appreciate the comment/s from others (I think it was this thread) that if ketosis CAUSED weight loss, every individual who eats a strict ketogenic diet for medical reason 24/7/365 would always lose weight and never stop losing weight because...ketosis. It doesn't work that way. Ketosis is not the cause of weight loss. Calories in/calories out is the reason for weight loss/maintenance and gain.20 -
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@cessi909, feel free to share my experience with your friend. I lost my excess 63 pounds via using MFP and eating at a calorie deficit. CI<CO. After weight loss (nearly 4 years of maintaining) I now eat at maintenance calories per MFP and have successfully maintained. I have altered macros at various times for various reasons during that 4 year period.
A full 52 weeks of that time was eating a Medically Therapeutic Ketogenic Diet (self prescribed) for my neurological movement disorder. I figured if it has a positive in the brain for epilepsy, perhaps it may also be beneficial for my Spasmodic Torticollis aka Cervical Dystonia which is thought to be a malfunction in the basal ganglia of the brain.
Anyway, for 52 weeks I adhered to my 1500 maintenance calories (already proven via 2 years of previous maintenance) by significantly changing my macros to reflect no greater than 20 grams of carbohydrates in addition to low protein so to not exceed 25% of my calories coming from COMBINED carbs and protein. Most days I was eating upwards of 75% of my calories from fat. Towards the end (last 4-5 months) of the trial, I supplemented with MCT oil which is reported to be ketogenic in order to keep my 1500 calories at 75% or above and possibly be "deeper" in ketosis.
I did NOT lose weight or body fat just because I was in ketosis. By design, I maintained. The state of ketosis had NO effect on my weight.
I appreciate the comment/s from others (I think it was this thread) that if ketosis CAUSED weight loss, every individual who eats a strict ketogenic diet for medical reason 24/7/365 would always lose weight and never stop losing weight because...ketosis. It doesn't work that way. Ketosis is not the cause of weight loss. Calories in/calories out is the reason for weight loss/maintenance and gain.
Exactly. CICO explains the energy balance. Ketosis is one way to achieve it, or make CI<CO easier to achieve.
Those that stick with keto do so for a few reasons:- Improved health due to insulin resistance, CVD or other inflammatory diseases (possibly without weight loss)
- Reduced appetite or cravings
- They like the food.
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i count, but i think when i get to my goal weight and maintain, i will not be so strict. some doctors say CICO is bs, but i don't know.10
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@cessi909, feel free to share my experience with your friend. I lost my excess 63 pounds via using MFP and eating at a calorie deficit. CI<CO. After weight loss (nearly 4 years of maintaining) I now eat at maintenance calories per MFP and have successfully maintained. I have altered macros at various times for various reasons during that 4 year period.
A full 52 weeks of that time was eating a Medically Therapeutic Ketogenic Diet (self prescribed) for my neurological movement disorder. I figured if it has a positive in the brain for epilepsy, perhaps it may also be beneficial for my Spasmodic Torticollis aka Cervical Dystonia which is thought to be a malfunction in the basal ganglia of the brain.
Anyway, for 52 weeks I adhered to my 1500 maintenance calories (already proven via 2 years of previous maintenance) by significantly changing my macros to reflect no greater than 20 grams of carbohydrates in addition to low protein so to not exceed 25% of my calories coming from COMBINED carbs and protein. Most days I was eating upwards of 75% of my calories from fat. Towards the end (last 4-5 months) of the trial, I supplemented with MCT oil which is reported to be ketogenic in order to keep my 1500 calories at 75% or above and possibly be "deeper" in ketosis.
I did NOT lose weight or body fat just because I was in ketosis. By design, I maintained. The state of ketosis had NO effect on my weight.
I appreciate the comment/s from others (I think it was this thread) that if ketosis CAUSED weight loss, every individual who eats a strict ketogenic diet for medical reason 24/7/365 would always lose weight and never stop losing weight because...ketosis. It doesn't work that way. Ketosis is not the cause of weight loss. Calories in/calories out is the reason for weight loss/maintenance and gain.
How did keto work for your medical condition? Since it was self-prescribed it's not a known treatment I would imagine, but did you find it had any effect?0 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Also, be sure you don't eat too much protein on keto or it will be converted to glucose and you won't be in ketosis anymore.
well...
That's gluconeogenesis. Which is happening all the time in the body regarding most (but not all) amino acids at a mostly fixed rate, high protein or not. Protein's effect on blood sugar and insulin is a much slower process than carbohydrates so it's not going to act like Hershey's would. We're talking over hours and hours elapsed time. Protein can and does decrease ketone production for a period. And did you know that the fat can be turned into glucose as well? If it's needed. Both are demand-driven. And both aren't preferential pathways as they are "expensive." Used if necessary, but not preferred.
So can protein (and I mean A LOT of protein) kick you out of ketosis? Sure it can.
The bigger question is: Does that matter? A definite "maybe."
If your goal is a medically therapeutic ketogenic diet. Absolutely yes.
If you are a Type 1 diabetic. Absolutely does matter.
For a Type 2 diabetic? Maybe. However getting adequate protein is going to mean more than the small increase in glucose, since T2s still have insulin/pancreas function. And if they are eating low-carb, too, again, gluconeogenesis is not like you just ate a bag of Skittles. This is a slow result on blood glucose and insulin. This conversion to glucose is going to be better than the carbohydrate hit.
For weight loss or exercise performance, the answer is another maybe. Like with T2, adequate protein is going to trump this. Weight loss cannibalizes lbm from any diet. You're going to want to offset or slow that down as much as possible through more than enough protein and resistance training. Once keto-folk become fat-adapted, being in-and-out of ketosis isn't a deal. This person is not required to be constantly in ketosis. Remember, ketosis is not required for weight loss. In is in. And when you're out due to excess carbs or protein, you'll shortly burn through that and be back in again. The metabolic machinery is already there once fat-adapted.
So does higher protein matter? Maybe not, depending on who you are and why you are eating ketogenically.
Others can speak better to the athletic performance angle than I. But I imagine it's not all that different. The body is still going to need a lot of protein for basic optimal function. And again, this need trumps ketosis.
Another question: what is too much protein? That depends on height, weight, lbm, activity level and medical history.
Some people's answers to this will be really different than others.
Some say optimal protein is .8-1.2 g per kg of lbm. Some say .8-1g per lb of ideal bodyweight. There are other recommedations as well.
I think the truth is in there somewhere dependent upon your health and goals.
To me it's important to focus more on: am I getting enough?
Of course all these arguments break down in the face of CKD.
Complicated discussion, but warranted.
Short answer: Keto just to lose weight? Don't worry about too much protein, IMO. Worry about getting enough.
Here are a couple keto-friendly, layperson-minded links that go into more explanation. Their resources also provide a bit more of a rabbit-hole if you have the time.
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html
http://ketogains.com/2016/04/gluconeogenesis-wont-kick-you-out-ketosis/6 -
It's not just a matter of how much heat your body can burn, but what fuel you put in your metabolism. I do keto, I don't log and I don't always eat at a deficit, I don't exercise. I only gain weight when my macros are off balance, not calories.
I do agree however, that for most "normal" metabolisms, CICO works. But keto doesn't work solely because it provides with CICO, it also works because it provides other health benefits, which is actually why most people stay on it. One of which is the usage as the body fat for fuel and the production of ketones, which for me and my mental health is the best way of eating possible.
As an example, I have a hard time processing sugar due to meds I take for my mental health that screwed up my metabolism as a side effect. I tried low fat, lost 1 kg, then I tried CICO, lost 3 kg but it was unsustainable for me PERSONALLY, because of the way I metabolize glucose. That doesn't meant CICO doesn't work, it just means it isn't the right method for me.
The bashing on keto is as ridiculous as bashing on CICO. Just because it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean it isn't going to work for another person.
your body fat is not what is being used as fuel for production of ketones. the high fat that you eat is. fat is lost in a deficit no matter how you eat. when you eat carbs your body uses that as energy, once you deplete your body of carbs/glycogen it has to run on something so it uses DIETARY fat as energy which is why fat in keto is so high. ALL diets run on CICO. a calorie is a unit of energy. you have the same energy as you burn and you maintain weight,less you lose and more you gain.when you do keto you are still doing CICO,if you count macros you are still counting calories just in another way, macros add up.4 -
deannalfisher wrote: »
There's actually a keto guy who has a site and podcast named that.2 -
MixedFarmer75 wrote: »Calories in matter. I have only been Keto for 3 weeks, but find it easier than just cutting carbs, and eating low fat. I have been using this app on and off since 2012. When I watch calories I lose weight, but if I don't I go back to my bad habits. The keto is nice because your blood sugars do not fluctuate thus that ravenous feeling never gets overwhelming. I have also noticed that the chronic inflammation in my lower back and knees has decreased almost to zero. As far as weight loss goes, as usual the first 10 lbs come off fast. It is still coming off but slower, although still faster than normal. Have lost 13 lbs over the 3 weeks that I have been watching what I eat. I will say this I seem to be able to eat more calories on Keto and still lose weight. Just my experience. There is solid science behind this keto, it is not a fad. Been around since the 1920's. It is not magic. It is just another tool. For some, especially those that are insulin resistant, find it very helpful.
keto is low carb/ high fat/moderate protein. when you lower one macro another needs to go up. unless you are doing higher amounts of protein?2 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »It's not just a matter of how much heat your body can burn, but what fuel you put in your metabolism. I do keto, I don't log and I don't always eat at a deficit, I don't exercise. I only gain weight when my macros are off balance, not calories.
I do agree however, that for most "normal" metabolisms, CICO works. But keto doesn't work solely because it provides with CICO, it also works because it provides other health benefits, which is actually why most people stay on it. One of which is the usage as the body fat for fuel and the production of ketones, which for me and my mental health is the best way of eating possible.
As an example, I have a hard time processing sugar due to meds I take for my mental health that screwed up my metabolism as a side effect. I tried low fat, lost 1 kg, then I tried CICO, lost 3 kg but it was unsustainable for me PERSONALLY, because of the way I metabolize glucose. That doesn't meant CICO doesn't work, it just means it isn't the right method for me.
The bashing on keto is as ridiculous as bashing on CICO. Just because it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean it isn't going to work for another person.
your body fat is not what is being used as fuel for production of ketones. the high fat that you eat is. fat is lost in a deficit no matter how you eat. when you eat carbs your body uses that as energy, once you deplete your body of carbs/glycogen it has to run on something so it uses DIETARY fat as energy which is why fat in keto is so high. ALL diets run on CICO. a calorie is a unit of energy. you have the same energy as you burn and you maintain weight,less you lose and more you gain.when you do keto you are still doing CICO,if you count macros you are still counting calories just in another way, macros add up.
The funny thing is that so many people seem to think that your body ONLY burns fat if it has to. The fact is that throughout the day most calories burned are, in fact, from fat. Your body always burns fat and carbohydrates but it's the ratio that changes based on food intake and demands. Also, some areas of the brain can only use glucose because they do not have mitochondria and thus can not utilize the kerb cycle for fat and even keto adapted people have a normal level of blood glucose and much of it is due to that reason.
Going back to fat burning, your fat cells are like every other cell in that they absorb fat but, unlike other cells, they also release fat back into the blood stream and that is based on energy requirement signally. So it doesn't matter how you take in your calories your body is always a fat burning machine, to quote the PR machine. The thing that matters for fat accumulation or depletion is how much you take in and your energy demands.6 -
i count, but i think when i get to my goal weight and maintain, i will not be so strict. some doctors say CICO is bs, but i don't know.
Which doctors would that be? Because many doctors don't actually have a lot of knowledge in regards to nutrition, etc, which is why it is usually recommended to go see a Registered Dietitian. But either way, any doctor that tells you that I'd be very wary of and potentially would find another.3 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »It's not just a matter of how much heat your body can burn, but what fuel you put in your metabolism. I do keto, I don't log and I don't always eat at a deficit, I don't exercise. I only gain weight when my macros are off balance, not calories.
I do agree however, that for most "normal" metabolisms, CICO works. But keto doesn't work solely because it provides with CICO, it also works because it provides other health benefits, which is actually why most people stay on it. One of which is the usage as the body fat for fuel and the production of ketones, which for me and my mental health is the best way of eating possible.
As an example, I have a hard time processing sugar due to meds I take for my mental health that screwed up my metabolism as a side effect. I tried low fat, lost 1 kg, then I tried CICO, lost 3 kg but it was unsustainable for me PERSONALLY, because of the way I metabolize glucose. That doesn't meant CICO doesn't work, it just means it isn't the right method for me.
The bashing on keto is as ridiculous as bashing on CICO. Just because it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean it isn't going to work for another person.
your body fat is not what is being used as fuel for production of ketones. the high fat that you eat is. fat is lost in a deficit no matter how you eat. when you eat carbs your body uses that as energy, once you deplete your body of carbs/glycogen it has to run on something so it uses DIETARY fat as energy which is why fat in keto is so high. ALL diets run on CICO. a calorie is a unit of energy. you have the same energy as you burn and you maintain weight,less you lose and more you gain.when you do keto you are still doing CICO,if you count macros you are still counting calories just in another way, macros add up.
The funny thing is that so many people seem to think that your body ONLY burns fat if it has to. The fact is that throughout the day most calories burned are, in fact, from fat. Your body always burns fat and carbohydrates but it's the ratio that changes based on food intake and demands. Also, some areas of the brain can only use glucose because they do not have mitochondria and thus can not utilize the kerb cycle for fat and even keto adapted people have a normal level of blood glucose and much of it is due to that reason.
Going back to fat burning, your fat cells are like every other cell in that they absorb fat but, unlike other cells, they also release fat back into the blood stream and that is based on energy requirement signally. So it doesn't matter how you take in your calories your body is always a fat burning machine, to quote the PR machine. The thing that matters for fat accumulation or depletion is how much you take in and your energy demands.
but many doing keto think that they are burning body fat at a faster and larger rate than others,which is why they think the large amounts of weight they lose in the beginning is fat. thats not so. all thats needed to lose fat is a deficit of calories of course.to say your body is a fat burning machine will confuse many and you can only burn so much fat in a day. I forget how much it was and Im sure everyone will be different but its not the amount a lot of ketoers think it is.2 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »It's not just a matter of how much heat your body can burn, but what fuel you put in your metabolism. I do keto, I don't log and I don't always eat at a deficit, I don't exercise. I only gain weight when my macros are off balance, not calories.
I do agree however, that for most "normal" metabolisms, CICO works. But keto doesn't work solely because it provides with CICO, it also works because it provides other health benefits, which is actually why most people stay on it. One of which is the usage as the body fat for fuel and the production of ketones, which for me and my mental health is the best way of eating possible.
As an example, I have a hard time processing sugar due to meds I take for my mental health that screwed up my metabolism as a side effect. I tried low fat, lost 1 kg, then I tried CICO, lost 3 kg but it was unsustainable for me PERSONALLY, because of the way I metabolize glucose. That doesn't meant CICO doesn't work, it just means it isn't the right method for me.
The bashing on keto is as ridiculous as bashing on CICO. Just because it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean it isn't going to work for another person.
your body fat is not what is being used as fuel for production of ketones. the high fat that you eat is. fat is lost in a deficit no matter how you eat. when you eat carbs your body uses that as energy, once you deplete your body of carbs/glycogen it has to run on something so it uses DIETARY fat as energy which is why fat in keto is so high. ALL diets run on CICO. a calorie is a unit of energy. you have the same energy as you burn and you maintain weight,less you lose and more you gain.when you do keto you are still doing CICO,if you count macros you are still counting calories just in another way, macros add up.
The funny thing is that so many people seem to think that your body ONLY burns fat if it has to. The fact is that throughout the day most calories burned are, in fact, from fat. Your body always burns fat and carbohydrates but it's the ratio that changes based on food intake and demands. Also, some areas of the brain can only use glucose because they do not have mitochondria and thus can not utilize the kerb cycle for fat and even keto adapted people have a normal level of blood glucose and much of it is due to that reason.
Going back to fat burning, your fat cells are like every other cell in that they absorb fat but, unlike other cells, they also release fat back into the blood stream and that is based on energy requirement signally. So it doesn't matter how you take in your calories your body is always a fat burning machine, to quote the PR machine. The thing that matters for fat accumulation or depletion is how much you take in and your energy demands.
but many doing keto think that they are burning body fat at a faster and larger rate than others,which is why they think the large amounts of weight they lose in the beginning is fat. thats not so. all thats needed to lose fat is a deficit of calories of course.to say your body is a fat burning machine will confuse many and you can only burn so much fat in a day. I forget how much it was and Im sure everyone will be different but its not the amount a lot of ketoers think it is.
Well, there is a theoretical calculation of fat mobilization per pound per day but keto adaptation often changes these things so it's likely they can mobilize more fat since they are using keto bodies over glucose, but that doesn't change the CICO energy balance, just how they can meet the demands for energy with fat rather than carbs or protein.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
Idiot charlatan doctors with products, books and woo to sell. Fung comes to mind immediately. Oz would be another.9 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »@cessi909, feel free to share my experience with your friend. I lost my excess 63 pounds via using MFP and eating at a calorie deficit. CI<CO. After weight loss (nearly 4 years of maintaining) I now eat at maintenance calories per MFP and have successfully maintained. I have altered macros at various times for various reasons during that 4 year period.
A full 52 weeks of that time was eating a Medically Therapeutic Ketogenic Diet (self prescribed) for my neurological movement disorder. I figured if it has a positive in the brain for epilepsy, perhaps it may also be beneficial for my Spasmodic Torticollis aka Cervical Dystonia which is thought to be a malfunction in the basal ganglia of the brain.
Anyway, for 52 weeks I adhered to my 1500 maintenance calories (already proven via 2 years of previous maintenance) by significantly changing my macros to reflect no greater than 20 grams of carbohydrates in addition to low protein so to not exceed 25% of my calories coming from COMBINED carbs and protein. Most days I was eating upwards of 75% of my calories from fat. Towards the end (last 4-5 months) of the trial, I supplemented with MCT oil which is reported to be ketogenic in order to keep my 1500 calories at 75% or above and possibly be "deeper" in ketosis.
I did NOT lose weight or body fat just because I was in ketosis. By design, I maintained. The state of ketosis had NO effect on my weight.
I appreciate the comment/s from others (I think it was this thread) that if ketosis CAUSED weight loss, every individual who eats a strict ketogenic diet for medical reason 24/7/365 would always lose weight and never stop losing weight because...ketosis. It doesn't work that way. Ketosis is not the cause of weight loss. Calories in/calories out is the reason for weight loss/maintenance and gain.
How did keto work for your medical condition? Since it was self-prescribed it's not a known treatment I would imagine, but did you find it had any effect?
Too long don't want to read all: A ketogenic diet did not work for me in my personal trial for my neurological movement disorder, Cervical Dystonia aka Spasmodic Torticollis.
Well...it was interesting. It was back in 2016 that, in a non-evangelical way, I communicated a positive effect at just a month or so into the trial. Read on. I was elated. I have dealt with this disorder for nearly 18 years having seen 5 neurologists and having run the gamut of many other professionals. At 64 years old, I seem to be in incredibly good health other than cervical dystonia. Anyway, I'm clear on whether or not my head is chronically turned to the right (I have right rotational Cervical Dystonia), I am unable to turn it to the left on most occasions and know the circumstances that tend to aggravate the "turn" or the "lock". It is an obvious abnormal posture to me and the eye of others. My husband, family members and real life circle of friends were elated for me as they too, could see the improvement for that short period of time. Alas, just as it seemed to work, it also stopped working which is when I started adding the MCT.
While I haven't given up hope for finding my personal relief, I am thinking, at this time, a ketogenic diet offered only a bit of a placebo effect
I so want to be of "normal" posture. Fortunately, dystonia is not a degenerative neurological disease. It will not get worse. Those of us who have CD/ST simply learn to adapt. Some opt for BotoxA injections to temporarily paralyze the overactive muscles but that too is only temporary. I opted for that (on 3 occasions) and it did work. I spent 6 weeks improving then 6 weeks declining each time. That is what BotoxA does. The nature of BotoxA. 250-350 units of it (combined) injected into my left SCM and right splenius capitis every 12 weeks was not bothersome for the temporary improvement. It is the roller coaster of being OK then not being OK that took its toll.
BotoxA injections into the effected overactive muscles, is the most common treatment. In severe cases (which I do not have), DBS surgery (Deep Brain Stimulation) is sometimes suggested. I have met 5 individuals who have severe CD/ST and had DBS surgery. It worked for only one and that individual was a young man who has the DYT1 gene thus the genetic form of Dystonia (not what I or the others I know have). The results of the DBS was pretty incredible. He was a feature on the show "Modern Medical Miracles" about DBS Surgery for Dystonia showing the before and after. I've not seen him in about 10 years. I hope he is still doing well.
Forgive the lengthy dialogue. It is my Public Service Announcement for a disorder that is often undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. I'm fortunate to live in a metro area with innumerable specialists and to have had such classical onset, there was no question. Anyone reading, if you were in perfect health one day and then your head is suddenly turned left, right, up or down and remained seemingly "locked" in that position...get yourself to Neurologist who is a Movement Disorder Specialist.
TL:DR No, a ketogenic diet did not work for me in my personal trial for my neurological movement disorder, Cervical Dystonia aka Spasmodic Torticollis.1 -
@kpk54 sorry that did not work out longer term in your case. Do you think the MCT oil was a factor in it stop working when it was working before? MTC oil wants to make me gag when nothing hardly makes me gag so I have given my stock away. Normally when I have a bad reaction to a food it is because it is bad for me. Now the smell of McDonald's fries makes me want to gag.15
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GaleHawkins wrote: »@kpk54 sorry that did not work out longer term in your case. Do you think the MCT oil was a factor in it stop working when it was working before? MTC oil wants to make me gag when nothing hardly makes me gag so I have given my stock away. Normally when I have a bad reaction to a food it is because it is bad for me. Now the smell of McDonald's fries makes me want to gag.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »@kpk54 sorry that did not work out longer term in your case. Do you think the MCT oil was a factor in it stop working when it was working before? MTC oil wants to make me gag when nothing hardly makes me gag so I have given my stock away. Normally when I have a bad reaction to a food it is because it is bad for me. Now the smell of McDonald's fries makes me want to gag.
No. I added the MCT Oil AFTER the regular ketogenic diet quit working which was during the last 4 or 5 months. Adding MCT neither helped nor hindered so far as involuntary movement.
I went through a few bottles and finally landed on 1 that had "no taste" (as MCT Oil ads generally claim). But yes, the 1st couple brands I tried had a "taste" and it was not pleasant.3 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
Idiot charlatan doctors with products, books and woo to sell. Fung comes to mind immediately. Oz would be another.
You can always find a contrarian everywhere. Usually, there is money in it.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »@kpk54 sorry that did not work out longer term in your case. Do you think the MCT oil was a factor in it stop working when it was working before? MTC oil wants to make me gag when nothing hardly makes me gag so I have given my stock away. Normally when I have a bad reaction to a food it is because it is bad for me. Now the smell of McDonald's fries makes me want to gag.
Cool more fries for me! But on the other hand they aren't nearly as good as when they were fried in beef tallow.8 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »@kpk54 sorry that did not work out longer term in your case. Do you think the MCT oil was a factor in it stop working when it was working before? MTC oil wants to make me gag when nothing hardly makes me gag so I have given my stock away. Normally when I have a bad reaction to a food it is because it is bad for me. Now the smell of McDonald's fries makes me want to gag.
No. I added the MCT Oil AFTER the regular ketogenic diet quit working which was during the last 4 or 5 months. Adding MCT neither helped nor hindered so far as involuntary movement.
I went through a few bottles and finally landed on 1 that had "no taste" (as MCT Oil ads generally claim). But yes, the 1st couple brands I tried had a "taste" and it was not pleasant.
Thanks for the details. Since I do 3+ tablespoons of coconut oil in my first cup of coffee each morning and eat a 2+ pound of coconut flakes weekly I am going to call my level of MCT oil from those sources enough.
Keto is not a cure for anything but for some reason it has really addressed my joint pain, IBS, cataract formation and mental clarity, etc. For me keto/low carb high fat is not a diet but an eating life style in my case since it addressed my cravings so now I can eat all that I want of my macro and still maintain my weight loss. Thanks again for your realistic take of keto in your case. I do hope you find some help with your condition. My naturally fused spine (from the Ankylosing Spondylitis) still is a major limitation but it is starting to move more year by year. The main thing most of my pain is gone on keto thankfully. I am lucky it seems that keto means not counting calories in my case .
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »@cessi909, feel free to share my experience with your friend. I lost my excess 63 pounds via using MFP and eating at a calorie deficit. CI<CO. After weight loss (nearly 4 years of maintaining) I now eat at maintenance calories per MFP and have successfully maintained. I have altered macros at various times for various reasons during that 4 year period.
A full 52 weeks of that time was eating a Medically Therapeutic Ketogenic Diet (self prescribed) for my neurological movement disorder. I figured if it has a positive in the brain for epilepsy, perhaps it may also be beneficial for my Spasmodic Torticollis aka Cervical Dystonia which is thought to be a malfunction in the basal ganglia of the brain.
Anyway, for 52 weeks I adhered to my 1500 maintenance calories (already proven via 2 years of previous maintenance) by significantly changing my macros to reflect no greater than 20 grams of carbohydrates in addition to low protein so to not exceed 25% of my calories coming from COMBINED carbs and protein. Most days I was eating upwards of 75% of my calories from fat. Towards the end (last 4-5 months) of the trial, I supplemented with MCT oil which is reported to be ketogenic in order to keep my 1500 calories at 75% or above and possibly be "deeper" in ketosis.
I did NOT lose weight or body fat just because I was in ketosis. By design, I maintained. The state of ketosis had NO effect on my weight.
I appreciate the comment/s from others (I think it was this thread) that if ketosis CAUSED weight loss, every individual who eats a strict ketogenic diet for medical reason 24/7/365 would always lose weight and never stop losing weight because...ketosis. It doesn't work that way. Ketosis is not the cause of weight loss. Calories in/calories out is the reason for weight loss/maintenance and gain.
How did keto work for your medical condition? Since it was self-prescribed it's not a known treatment I would imagine, but did you find it had any effect?
Too long don't want to read all: A ketogenic diet did not work for me in my personal trial for my neurological movement disorder, Cervical Dystonia aka Spasmodic Torticollis.
Well...it was interesting. It was back in 2016 that, in a non-evangelical way, I communicated a positive effect at just a month or so into the trial. Read on. I was elated. I have dealt with this disorder for nearly 18 years having seen 5 neurologists and having run the gamut of many other professionals. At 64 years old, I seem to be in incredibly good health other than cervical dystonia. Anyway, I'm clear on whether or not my head is chronically turned to the right (I have right rotational Cervical Dystonia), I am unable to turn it to the left on most occasions and know the circumstances that tend to aggravate the "turn" or the "lock". It is an obvious abnormal posture to me and the eye of others. My husband, family members and real life circle of friends were elated for me as they too, could see the improvement for that short period of time. Alas, just as it seemed to work, it also stopped working which is when I started adding the MCT.
While I haven't given up hope for finding my personal relief, I am thinking, at this time, a ketogenic diet offered only a bit of a placebo effect I so want to be of "normal" posture. Fortunately, dystonia is not a degenerative neurological disease. It will not get worse. Those of us who have CD/ST simply learn to adapt. Some opt for BotoxA injections to temporarily paralyze the overactive muscles but that too is only temporary. I opted for that (on 3 occasions) and it did work. I spent 6 weeks improving then 6 weeks declining each time. That is what BotoxA does. The nature of BotoxA. 250-350 units of it (combined) injected into my left SCM and right splenius capitis every 12 weeks was not bothersome for the temporary improvement. It is the roller coaster of being OK then not being OK that took its toll.
BotoxA injections into the effected overactive muscles, is the most common treatment. In severe cases (which I do not have), DBS surgery (Deep Brain Stimulation) is sometimes suggested. I have met 5 individuals who have severe CD/ST and had DBS surgery. It worked for only one and that individual was a young man who has the DYT1 gene thus the genetic form of Dystonia (not what I or the others I know have). The results of the DBS was pretty incredible. He was a feature on the show "Modern Medical Miracles" about DBS Surgery for Dystonia showing the before and after. I've not seen him in about 10 years. I hope he is still doing well.
Forgive the lengthy dialogue. It is my Public Service Announcement for a disorder that is often undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. I'm fortunate to live in a metro area with innumerable specialists and to have had such classical onset, there was no question. Anyone reading, if you were in perfect health one day and then your head is suddenly turned left, right, up or down and remained seemingly "locked" in that position...get yourself to Neurologist who is a Movement Disorder Specialist.
TL:DR No, a ketogenic diet did not work for me in my personal trial for my neurological movement disorder, Cervical Dystonia aka Spasmodic Torticollis.
Thanks for explain your situation and maybe this will help others who are suffering from the same but don't realize it. I really hope the treatment option improve for you.5 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@kpk54 sorry that did not work out longer term in your case. Do you think the MCT oil was a factor in it stop working when it was working before? MTC oil wants to make me gag when nothing hardly makes me gag so I have given my stock away. Normally when I have a bad reaction to a food it is because it is bad for me. Now the smell of McDonald's fries makes me want to gag.
Cool more fries for me! But on the other hand they aren't nearly as good as when they were fried in beef tallow.
If you go to an especially fancy gastropub here in old Blighty, you might find chips (fat fries) fried in beef dripping. Godly.7 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@kpk54 sorry that did not work out longer term in your case. Do you think the MCT oil was a factor in it stop working when it was working before? MTC oil wants to make me gag when nothing hardly makes me gag so I have given my stock away. Normally when I have a bad reaction to a food it is because it is bad for me. Now the smell of McDonald's fries makes me want to gag.
Cool more fries for me! But on the other hand they aren't nearly as good as when they were fried in beef tallow.
If you go to an especially fancy gastropub here in old Blighty, you might find chips (fat fries) fried in beef dripping. Godly.
I'm seriously considering booking a flight lol.4 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@kpk54 sorry that did not work out longer term in your case. Do you think the MCT oil was a factor in it stop working when it was working before? MTC oil wants to make me gag when nothing hardly makes me gag so I have given my stock away. Normally when I have a bad reaction to a food it is because it is bad for me. Now the smell of McDonald's fries makes me want to gag.
Cool more fries for me! But on the other hand they aren't nearly as good as when they were fried in beef tallow.
If you go to an especially fancy gastropub here in old Blighty, you might find chips (fat fries) fried in beef dripping. Godly.
I've seen that occasionally here in the US. A handful of places are using duck fat as well.5 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@kpk54 sorry that did not work out longer term in your case. Do you think the MCT oil was a factor in it stop working when it was working before? MTC oil wants to make me gag when nothing hardly makes me gag so I have given my stock away. Normally when I have a bad reaction to a food it is because it is bad for me. Now the smell of McDonald's fries makes me want to gag.
Cool more fries for me! But on the other hand they aren't nearly as good as when they were fried in beef tallow.
If you go to an especially fancy gastropub here in old Blighty, you might find chips (fat fries) fried in beef dripping. Godly.
I'm seriously considering booking a flight lol.
There's these too, which are actually pretty good, better than any other frozen fries I've had!
http://groceries.iceland.co.uk/mccain-triple-cooked-gastro-chips-640g/p/708272
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