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Keto means not counting calories
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estherdragonbat wrote: »CICO isn't a way of eating, though. It's an energy equation. All weight loss, weight gain, and weight maintenance comes down to CICO. In other words, no matter how you try to lose weight, CICO is involved. And everyone is subject to CICO whether they're aware of it or not.
But there isn't all there is to it. There's also genetics, illnesses, meds, hormones, etc. that affect how CICO does work. If I eat at a caloric deficit but 200g of carbs plus 200g of fat I'll probably don't lose weight.
There isn't a one-size-fits-all method.
CICO is NOT a method, it's a physical reality. You are confusing the two and if you feel you have found a method that works then good for you, but you are still following CICO weather you know it or not. Even if you don't understand gravity you are still stuck with that too.14 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »CICO isn't a way of eating, though. It's an energy equation. All weight loss, weight gain, and weight maintenance comes down to CICO. In other words, no matter how you try to lose weight, CICO is involved. And everyone is subject to CICO whether they're aware of it or not.
But there isn't all there is to it. There's also genetics, illnesses, meds, hormones, etc. that affect how CICO does work. If I eat at a caloric deficit but 200g of carbs plus 200g of fat I'll probably don't lose weight.
There isn't a one-size-fits-all method.
But by your own admittance you did in fact lose weight simply counting calories. Is it seroquel you're on? (You don't have to disclose). If so, it can in a few people cause metabolic syndrome and yes, lower carb can be beneficial for that but it's not just sugar, it's all starchy carbs, singling out sugar is unnecessary demonisation.
And even then, as mentioned, it still comes down CICO as that's the scientific formula that denotes the energy balance of weight loss/maintenance/gain. Nobody is immune.6 -
It's not just a matter of how much heat your body can burn, but what fuel you put in your metabolism. I do keto, I don't log and I don't always eat at a deficit, I don't exercise. I only gain weight when my macros are off balance, not calories.
I do agree however, that for most "normal" metabolisms, CICO works. But keto doesn't work solely because it provides with CICO, it also works because it provides other health benefits, which is actually why most people stay on it. One of which is the usage as the body fat for fuel and the production of ketones, which for me and my mental health is the best way of eating possible.
As an example, I have a hard time processing sugar due to meds I take for my mental health that screwed up my metabolism as a side effect. I tried low fat, lost 1 kg, then I tried CICO, lost 3 kg but it was unsustainable for me PERSONALLY, because of the way I metabolize glucose. That doesn't meant CICO doesn't work, it just means it isn't the right method for me.
The bashing on keto is as ridiculous as bashing on CICO. Just because it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean it isn't going to work for another person.
No amount of word salad and special snowflakiness negates energy balance. Denying energy balance, (CI>CO==Gain, CI<CO==Loss etc) is literally claiming that the human body can create energy from nothing or make ingested energy disappear. If you think your metabolism is not "normal", please donate yourself to government scientists so we can solve the energy crisis.15 -
JerSchmare wrote: »I’m late to this party, but it’s fascinating. I have a friend who talks exactly like the OP, and even uses the exact same statistics, I.e., 90% of people on non-keto diets fail. Weird. It must be a cult or something.
Anyway, I honestly feel bad for these people. They ignore facts.
The woo tang clan...
OP is actually on the CICO side but was settling a debate with someone, who is no longer talking with them.
There have been a few that are trying to refute CICO.8 -
I’m posting this to also help settle a debate between me and another woman.
When you are on keto and in ketosis you do not need to count/worry about calories since your body is switching fuel sources?
OR
You lose weight on keto because your CI is lower than CO? If your CI are too high, regardless of ketosis, you’ll gain weight.
I'm seeing this... OP is cessi909
Can you quote what you are talking about JerSchmare?6 -
Losinandmovin wrote: »Losinandmovin wrote: »I've been keto for the past 4 months: [1] I don't pay any attention to calories. I eat at my TDEE: 2200/day and continue to lose weight. It's NOT calories in/calories out. I belong to several Facebook keto groups and many of my friends on this site are doing keto and post their food diaries. Most of us eat at our TDEE-- that's a shitload of calories. I don't exercise-- many do. I continuously lose. So do almost all my keto contacts. I'm working with my endocrinologist. I'm not diabetic and don't want to be--so this works for MANY people. People are comfortable with CICO. But ultimately, when you look at the success rates of low calorie diets: they don't work for over 90% of people long term. We've been taught our whole lives to eat less, exercise more. [3] Keto throws that to the wind. Eat fewer carbohydrates, but EAT. [4] We are never hungry: which low calories diets cannot claim. You can certainly add exercise: we all need it for well being, muscle strength and endurance, and basic life. I won't argue that. But I will argue and I have plenty who will back me up: keto is not CICO.
[1] If you don't pay any attention to calories, how do you know you're eating at your TDEE?
[2] Feel free to post any legitimate studies/statistics showing a higher long term success rate with keto over any other diet.
[3] No, keto does not throw CICO to the wind. This is an example of the ridiculous claims made in keto propaganda. There have been countless scientific studies conclusively proving that energy balance is the driver of weight loss/gain/maintenance.
[4] More keto propaganda woo. There are plenty of people eating non-keto, calorie-restricted diets who enjoy excellent satiety. That it works for you doesn't mean that it works for everyone.
Keto
Is
Not
Magic.
AnvilHead, you don't have to agree, but these are my experiences. Propaganda is for a specific purpose: I have no other purpose than to answer her questions. I don't pay attention to calories: at the end of the day I look and see where I am-- I don't have to try to stay under. Feel free to research how few people maintain weight loss with CICO. Have fun with that.
People (like yourself) are vehemently apposed to keto-- that's fine, it's not for everyone. But it works and it's not nearly the fad people think it is. There are many endocrinologists that would disagree with your claims that CICO is the be all end all. I would never say keto has better success than every other diet: my ego isn't so big that I need to claim things I don't know. But I do know that people do not have to eat at a deficit to lose on keto. I do know food is more of an indicator of how much weight people will lose is than exercise.
Most doctors are not training in nutrition and while some are more specialized (like endo's) they are still not scientists. Doctors assess the science (often wrongly), diagnosed and prescribe. If you actually want to know how the body works, you go to a PhD that is educated and trained in nutrition.
Sadly, many doctors conflate variability in energy balance (things that influence TEF, TEA, and NEAT), personal adherence to diets and modifications in macro distribution to address medical conditions (i.e., low carb to address insulin issues) to drive the belief that CICO doesn't matter. And they would be wrong. There are thousands of metabolic ward studies proving it. Failure to understand that, makes people uninformed.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/4/9899 -
I think @JerSchmare is mistaking losinandmovin for OP.10
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GaleHawkins wrote: »susanbowen2 wrote: »Even though it's a bit off topic, it's not just keto. I don't want the people who really truly understand the reason people lose weight on a low carb diet ( or any diet) to feel like it's a dump fest on them. I am forever seeing people spread myths about all types of dieting. Multi level marketing, vegan, whatever.
The fact remains that any" diet" will work as long as you create a calorie deficit.
Yes you are correct that any diet may work. There are a lot of people looking to trick people out of their money. I found a few years ago keto/lchf sets my appetite to the point where I can eat all that I want and not gain weight or lose muscle yet at the end of the day CICO rules. If I get to the point where I gain weight on my WOE then I will have to look at going back to counting calories and or adjusting my macro that currently is automatically managing my weight.
Well it seems like your one of the people whom keto regulates their appetite. I've never really heard it put the way your saying about finding your macro. ( I personally have 3 so I guess mine is called hitting my macros lol!)
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JerSchmare wrote: »I’m late to this party, but it’s fascinating. I have a friend who talks exactly like the OP, and even uses the exact same statistics, I.e., 90% of people on non-keto diets fail. Weird. It must be a cult or something.
Anyway, I honestly feel bad for these people. They ignore facts.
90% of all diets, even keto fail. Not because the diets themselves don't work but because people go off the diets. The most important part of the diet is not the weight loss but the long-term maintenance of it. If you can maintain keto for life then it's much more likely to succeed long-term, same for high carb-low fat, portion control, calorie counting etc. So, sure 90% of people regain what they have lost within 2-3 years, but that's not necessarily a diet fail, that's a lifestyle issue.10 -
Losinandmovin wrote: »Losinandmovin wrote: »I've been keto for the past 4 months: [1] I don't pay any attention to calories. I eat at my TDEE: 2200/day and continue to lose weight. It's NOT calories in/calories out. I belong to several Facebook keto groups and many of my friends on this site are doing keto and post their food diaries. Most of us eat at our TDEE-- that's a shitload of calories. I don't exercise-- many do. I continuously lose. So do almost all my keto contacts. I'm working with my endocrinologist. I'm not diabetic and don't want to be--so this works for MANY people. People are comfortable with CICO. But ultimately, when you look at the success rates of low calorie diets: they don't work for over 90% of people long term. We've been taught our whole lives to eat less, exercise more. [3] Keto throws that to the wind. Eat fewer carbohydrates, but EAT. [4] We are never hungry: which low calories diets cannot claim. You can certainly add exercise: we all need it for well being, muscle strength and endurance, and basic life. I won't argue that. But I will argue and I have plenty who will back me up: keto is not CICO.
[1] If you don't pay any attention to calories, how do you know you're eating at your TDEE?
[2] Feel free to post any legitimate studies/statistics showing a higher long term success rate with keto over any other diet.
[3] No, keto does not throw CICO to the wind. This is an example of the ridiculous claims made in keto propaganda. There have been countless scientific studies conclusively proving that energy balance is the driver of weight loss/gain/maintenance.
[4] More keto propaganda woo. There are plenty of people eating non-keto, calorie-restricted diets who enjoy excellent satiety. That it works for you doesn't mean that it works for everyone.
Keto
Is
Not
Magic.
AnvilHead, you don't have to agree, but these are my experiences. Propaganda is for a specific purpose: I have no other purpose than to answer her questions. I don't pay attention to calories: at the end of the day I look and see where I am-- I don't have to try to stay under. Feel free to research how few people maintain weight loss with CICO. Have fun with that.
People (like yourself) are vehemently apposed to keto-- that's fine, it's not for everyone. But it works and it's not nearly the fad people think it is. There are many endocrinologists that would disagree with your claims that CICO is the be all end all. I would never say keto has better success than every other diet: my ego isn't so big that I need to claim things I don't know. But I do know that people do not have to eat at a deficit to lose on keto. I do know food is more of an indicator of how much weight people will lose is than exercise.
Most doctors are not training in nutrition and while some are more specialized (like endo's) they are still not scientists. Doctors assess the science (often wrongly), diagnosed and prescribe. If you actually want to know how the body works, you go to a PhD that is educated and trained in nutrition.
Sadly, many doctors conflate variability in energy balance (things that influence TEF, TEA, and NEAT), personal adherence to diets and modifications in macro distribution to address medical conditions (i.e., low carb to address insulin issues) to drive the belief that CICO doesn't matter. And they would be wrong. There are thousands of metabolic ward studies proving it. Failure to understand that, makes people uninformed.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/4/989
I won't speak for doctors, but neither does the poster you quote. It's more than likely she is either quoting a specific endo, that we know well and has been debunked, or misinterprets what endos are saying. An endo would understand how hormones affects the CO side and perhaps the CI side as far as usable calories, but except for a few known exceptions I haven't heard any say that a specific diet works better than anything else. That just isn't supported by the research and they know it.3 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »I have an autoimmune disorder and have been told by ketovangelists that a keto diet can control or even cure said disorder, despite there being NO evidence whatsoever of this, no studies have been done to show this and in fact the only dietary study done in relation to this particular disorder has indicated (only indicated) that a high fat diet may actually speed up degeneration. Didn't matter to these people, they firmly believed it was a cure all. I've also seen people with the same disorder told to go Keto on this forum, and it really irks me.
No one should be giving another eating advice in a
Not even a healthcare professional can tell one that any diet can control or even cure any disorder. It boils down to an n=1 self study
Are you seriously suggesting disregarding the advice of a professional in favor of self-experimentation?
11 -
johnslater461 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »I have an autoimmune disorder and have been told by ketovangelists that a keto diet can control or even cure said disorder, despite there being NO evidence whatsoever of this, no studies have been done to show this and in fact the only dietary study done in relation to this particular disorder has indicated (only indicated) that a high fat diet may actually speed up degeneration. Didn't matter to these people, they firmly believed it was a cure all. I've also seen people with the same disorder told to go Keto on this forum, and it really irks me.
No one should be giving another eating advice in a
Not even a healthcare professional can tell one that any diet can control or even cure any disorder. It boils down to an n=1 self study
Are you seriously suggesting disregarding the advice of a professional in favor of self-experimentation?
I can tell you that some professionals give very poor advice simply because I am pretty sure they don't want to explain to their clients how CICO works, so they say "Here is a meal plan, just avoid carbs and you will be fine." It's easier for them to tell their clients to remove an entire macro then to explain to their patients that they should weigh their food and count calories. Let's face it, people prefer the easy way out of restricting something than doing any work like weighing food.3 -
It's not just a matter of how much heat your body can burn, but what fuel you put in your metabolism. I do keto, I don't log and I don't always eat at a deficit, I don't exercise. I only gain weight when my macros are off balance, not calories.
I do agree however, that for most "normal" metabolisms, CICO works. But keto doesn't work solely because it provides with CICO, it also works because it provides other health benefits, which is actually why most people stay on it. One of which is the usage as the body fat for fuel and the production of ketones, which for me and my mental health is the best way of eating possible.
As an example, I have a hard time processing sugar due to meds I take for my mental health that screwed up my metabolism as a side effect. I tried low fat, lost 1 kg, then I tried CICO, lost 3 kg but it was unsustainable for me PERSONALLY, because of the way I metabolize glucose. That doesn't meant CICO doesn't work, it just means it isn't the right method for me.
The bashing on keto is as ridiculous as bashing on CICO. Just because it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean it isn't going to work for another person.
First, your body doesn't burn heat. Energy is not just heat, it comes in many different forms, the most important in your body probably being kinetic energy (movement) and electrical energy (signals for your nerves). Every single movement your body ever makes can only happen with a supply of energy. What fuel source your body took that energy from is entirely irrelevant for that. If your muscles need 100 calories to do what they do, they need 100 calories. They can't just do the same work on 50 just because you got it from fat or whatever.
If you give your body more energy than it needs to do the things it does, any excess is stored in your body for times where you don't give it enough energy. Vice versa, if you don't give your body enough energy to do what it does, your body taps into your fuel sources (btw. it always uses body fat for fuel, not just on keto, that's another of the bs myths spouted by the evangelists) to make up for what you're missing. Again, because your body can't just decide to do the same work on less or no energy, that's physics.
That is what CICO is.14 -
How do you know you are not in a deficit if you don't log?It's not just a matter of how much heat your body can burn, but what fuel you put in your metabolism. I do keto, I don't log and I don't always eat at a deficit,
This makes absolutely no sense. If you lose, CI<CO. If you gain CI>CO, period end of story...I don't exercise. I only gain weight when my macros are off balance, not calories.
An abnormal metabolism may skew the CI and CO portion of the equation but that said, CICO is still functioning all the same. CICO just is, regardless of the body type. It is not a diet tool. Don't confuse it with calorie counting. It is what it is...I do agree however, that for most "normal" metabolisms, CICO works.
If you are not in a deficit, that is to say CI>CO, you are not going to burn body fat for fuel, regardless of your macros. You will be burning fat because you are eating fat...But keto doesn't work solely because it provides with CICO, it also works because it provides other health benefits, which is actually why most people stay on it. One of which is the usage as the body fat for fuel and the production of ketones, which for me and my mental health is the best way of eating possible.
Again, CICO is not a method. Whatever way of eating you choose, CICO is in play. It is what it is.As an example, I have a hard time processing sugar due to meds I take for my mental health that screwed up my metabolism as a side effect. I tried low fat, lost 1 kg, then I tried CICO, lost 3 kg but it was unsustainable for me PERSONALLY, because of the way I metabolize glucose. That doesn't meant CICO doesn't work, it just means it isn't the right method for me.
Keto works. Just not for the reasons you think it's working...The bashing on keto is as ridiculous as bashing on CICO. Just because it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean it isn't going to work for another person.6 -
Calories in matter. I have only been Keto for 3 weeks, but find it easier than just cutting carbs, and eating low fat. I have been using this app on and off since 2012. When I watch calories I lose weight, but if I don't I go back to my bad habits. The keto is nice because your blood sugars do not fluctuate thus that ravenous feeling never gets overwhelming. I have also noticed that the chronic inflammation in my lower back and knees has decreased almost to zero. As far as weight loss goes, as usual the first 10 lbs come off fast. It is still coming off but slower, although still faster than normal. Have lost 13 lbs over the 3 weeks that I have been watching what I eat. I will say this I seem to be able to eat more calories on Keto and still lose weight. Just my experience. There is solid science behind this keto, it is not a fad. Been around since the 1920's. It is not magic. It is just another tool. For some, especially those that are insulin resistant, find it very helpful.4
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JerSchmare wrote: »notreallychris wrote: »JerSchmare wrote: »I’m late to this party, but it’s fascinating. I have a friend who talks exactly like the OP, and even uses the exact same statistics, I.e., 90% of people on non-keto diets fail. Weird. It must be a cult or something.
Anyway, I honestly feel bad for these people. They ignore facts.
The woo tang clan...
OP is actually on the CICO side but was settling a debate with someone, who is no longer talking with them.
There have been a few that are trying to refute CICO.
No. OP said she eats at TDEE, but she doesn’t. She eats far below that. So, she’s losing because she’s in a deficit, not because of Keto. She denies that CICO is relevant.
That wasn't OP.3 -
In order to lose anything more than water weight on keto, you need to also be running a calorie deficit. Many of the keto foods are high calorie, so I would suggest tracking your calorie intake so you aren't unknowingly in a surplus.4
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Also, be sure you don't eat too much protein on keto or it will be converted to glucose and you won't be in ketosis anymore.2
No thank you. I’m on the CICO side of this. I’m finding so many people though are touting keto as a miracle
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