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CICO is overrated in my opinion
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CICO is NOT a weight loss plan - it is a math formula that describes the relationship between calories taken in (CI) and calories expended (CO).11
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I see the 'CICO is overrated' argument as legitimate in ONLY one respect:
What percent of success in a weight loss endeavor would you attribute to the selection of a means of losing weight?
And what percent of success in a weight loss endeavor would you attribute to long-term focus and sustained control over yourself, behaviorally?
My answers are 20%, and 80%. Yes, CICO has less friction than other weight loss plans because you can eat anything you want. But someone whose head isn't in it simply can't be helped.
Nothing about that contradicts or changes the fact that if you eat less calories than you expend, you'll lose weight. If you eat more calories than you expend, you'll gain weight. CICO has nothing whatsoever to do with behavioral/psychological aspects of weight loss - it's an equation which defines the laws of energy balance.
CICO applies whether you count calories or not. Whether you work out or not. Whether you "eat clean" or not. Whether you eat keto, paleo, IIFYM, veg*an, low fat, low protein, Zone, or whatever else. Whether you comply with your diet or not. Whether your head is in it or not. None of that matters or changes the laws of energy balance.19 -
its' not semantics- it's just a tool.
You use it to put on weight too. or maintain.15 -
Not semantics - people can lose/maintain/gain weight without any knowledge of CICO - in fact they do it all the time. CICO is not a process, it is not a means of reaching a goal, it is not a diet plan - it is an explanation of WHY a diet plan works (whatever the intention of the plan is).17 -
its' not semantics- it's just a tool.
You use it to put on weight too. or maintain.
I'd postulate that it isn't even a "tool". It's an equation that can be used to derive various strategies to gain, lose or maintain weight by manipulating energy balance. Those strategies ("tools") can include the concepts of satiety/adherence, workout performance, macro and micronutrient manipulation to target overall nutrition and body composition, etc. - but they're not CICO itself. CICO is just the equation which allows those other things to work.10 -
I'm so glad OP came back and addressed the feedback14
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its' not semantics- it's just a tool.
You use it to put on weight too. or maintain.
I'd postulate that it isn't even a "tool". It's an equation that can be used to derive various strategies to gain, lose or maintain weight by manipulating energy balance. Those strategies ("tools") can include the concepts of satiety/adherence, workout performance, macro and micronutrient manipulation to target overall nutrition and body composition, etc. - but they're not CICO itself. CICO is just the equation which allows those other things to work.
ehhh I could probably get by on that.
To me it's like a budget- a budget is a tool to help you to your long term goal. even though- it's pretty much the same thing. same thing with conversions for lengths- or currency's- it's just an equation- but the converter is the tool. So column A column B.
But at it's heart- yes- it's just an equation.1 -
I am a little late to this party as I was skiing, trying to balance my CICO equation for the day, but here's my thoughts:
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Honestly, some of these side discussions remind me of a room where a bunch of adults are sitting around talking about solving quadratic equations and a 7-year old walks in and says "I like playing patty cake!".
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People are missing my point. The natural question that comes from reading this thread's title is "Why is CICO overrated?"
Understand that this conversation had filled 7 pages before I spoke up, so I acknowledge this isn't a commonly made argument, but I wish people were willing to at least consider a unique opinion instead of all-out attacking anyone who disagrees. I like to challenge people, I'm not malicious; my apologies if that wasn't clear from the outset. I'll re-state my point briefly.
If (I'm not saying it's the absolute truth), if CICO is overrated, it (IMO) could only possibly be overrated with respect to the remarkable amount of focus and self-control it takes to use the principles of CICO to change yourself in a positive way.
What good is information if one lacks the means (in this case, the 'behavior') to effectively use it to better their circumstances?
That is my point.29 -
I've been waiting for the OP to come back and clarify some points before I deep dive into this, but since @GlorianasTears hasn't come back after a day, I suppose that's not going to happen.
Since a debate usually requires two sides participating equally, I'm not sure this should be on the Debate board. It might be better for the mods to move it to chit-chat since it seems more a rant than a topic designed to produce any kind of productive discussion.GlorianasTears wrote: »CICO is important definitely
It's always nice when we can start with some common ground.but i think it shouldn't be a priority we want to LOSE FAT not just WEIGHT because weight includes those wonderful muscles you work so hard to build (and other stuff) .
I'm not sure I understand the point here. CICO must be a part of losing fat. Whether losing weight or doing a recomp, calories are a major factor in what happens. If you mean to address the idea that too steep a deficit can cause health issues or muscle loss, I don't think many would disagree.
I might agree with the statement that "CICO shouldn't be the only priority if we want to lose fat and not just weight" but if that's the argument being made some clarifications would help. It's a shame you chose not to come back and discuss this, since I think there's a lot to be said about it.Also the human body is very intelligent if you eat low calorie for a long time like i did in the past you might come to find that your body adjust to your low calorie lifestyle and you lose weight but you look unhealthy .
Adaptive thermogenesis is a thing, but I've never seen it connected to looking unhealthy. It also doesn't cause the massive drop in TDEE that many seem to think.
If the point is meant to be that vitamins, minerals, and protein are important during weight loss, again I don't think many would disagree. But choosing a smaller deficit solves most of those problems within the idea of CICO.If you want to make your body let go of fat you have to be healthy , being malnourished is not healthy or pleasant.
I will agree that being malnourished is not healthy or pleasant, but I don't think it stops weight loss. Didn't the Minnesota Starvation Experiment cover that? It's been a while since I've read through it, but I believe they continued to lose weight despite malnourishment. Hopefully someone else can correct me if I'm off on that one.So please promote fat loss not weight loss .
Giving advice is an art form. And giving useful advice in a situation where we have little information and emotions are often running high is even more so. There are few people who even want to bother with it all and fewer still who have any talent for it. We're fortunate that we have such knowledgeable people who actually want to participate and that there is such varied advice given. Most people will find the answer to their questions somewhere in the mire of information being thrown at them.
I don't want to pull examples from other posts since I'm sure it would shut this post down and bring in warnings, but I will say that I tend to get my hackles up anytime someone feels the need to dictate how advice is given on a message board with so many members from so many walks of life. I sometimes feel like the advice in a thread isn't nuanced enough or doesn't cover a particular aspect that might be important, but when I see that I jump in and add my two cents.Im not trying to rain on anyones parade but i just think that we should focus on health and nutrition more than obsessing over CICO. Have a nice day
And this is why I'm so confused about what the purpose of this thread is. It's on the Debate board, but you don't seem to want to discuss it. It's about CICO, or it's about health, or it's about giving better advice. or maybe it's meant to be advice to others. I wish we had some clarification. In my experience, the OP of a post can control where it goes if they will just participate. A drop in to say you aren't even going to read responses doesn't count in my book.
I've seen some of your other advice given in threads, so I have to ask: other than "calories matter for weight loss, macros and micros matter for health, exercise is probably good but it depends on your goals," what advice would you prefer we lot give? Some newbies will be overwhelmed by too much nutrition information. Some will deep dive and try to learn everything they can. Some will become obsessive about calories while others obsess over carbs and others still over potassium or sugar or any number of datapoints the site/app offers them. It's very hard to tell who will fall into which trap so as to provide the best information for them. If there's a better way to tell or better advice we could be giving, it would be nice to have specifics.
Anyway, carry on with whatever splinter discussion this topic has wandered into while I've written this. I'm sure the OP will come back to talk to all of us soon.
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diannethegeek wrote: »I've been waiting for the OP to come back and clarify some points before I deep dive into this, but since @GlorianasTears hasn't come back after a day, I suppose that's not going to happen.
I've seen some of your other advice given in threads, so I have to ask: other than "calories matter for weight loss, macros and micros matter for health, exercise is probably good but it depends on your goals," what advice would you prefer we lot give?
Isn't this the poster who created a (subsequently deleted) thread emphasizing the need for frequent enemas for proper weight loss?? And argued that everyone stating that this was in fact, not only not necessary, but possibly dangerous, were just uneducated know-it-alls? I'm not sure asking for other advice from them would be beneficial.6 -
Nope. You are talking about calorie counting. CICO and calorie counting are not the same thing.
Calorie counting is a weight loss plan that relies entirely on monitoring CICO.
CICO is the name of a real thing. It is an equation for the energy balance that determines whether you gain, lose, or maintain weight. I honestly don't think this is pedantic - There are so many people in this forum who honestly think CICO "doesn't work" for them because calorie counting didn't work for them, specifically because people insist on conflating the terms. CICO applies to everyone. Calorie counting may work for some people and not for others. It might make some people healthier but others not.
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I see the 'CICO is overrated' argument as legitimate in ONLY one respect:
What percent of success in a weight loss endeavor would you attribute to the selection of a means of losing weight?
And what percent of success in a weight loss endeavor would you attribute to long-term focus and sustained control over yourself, behaviorally?
My answers are 20%, and 80%. Yes, CICO has less friction than other weight loss plans because you can eat anything you want. But someone whose head isn't in it simply can't be helped.
CICO is not a weight loss plan. Come back to the conversation when you understand what CICO is. We'll wait...9 -
People are missing my point. The natural question that comes from reading this thread's title is "Why is CICO overrated?"
Understand that this conversation had filled 7 pages before I spoke up, so I acknowledge this isn't a commonly made argument, but I wish people were willing to at least consider a unique opinion instead of all-out attacking anyone who disagrees. I like to challenge people, I'm not malicious; my apologies if that wasn't clear from the outset. I'll re-state my point briefly.
If (I'm not saying it's the absolute truth), if CICO is overrated, it (IMO) could only possibly be overrated with respect to the remarkable amount of focus and self-control it takes to use the principles of CICO to change yourself in a positive way.
What good is information if one lacks the means (in this case, the 'behavior') to effectively use it to better their circumstances?
That is my point.
You are presuming a few things here, though and missing the context of the original post, methinks.
Here's the original post for context:CICO is important definitely but i think it shouldn't be a priority we want to LOSE FAT not just WEIGHT because weight includes those wonderful muscles you work so hard to build (and other stuff) . Also the human body is very intelligent if you eat low calorie for a long time like i did in the past you might come to find that your body adjust to your low calorie lifestyle and you lose weight but you look unhealthy . If you want to make your body let go of fat you have to be healthy , being malnourished is not healthy or pleasant. So please promote fat loss not weight loss .
Im not trying to rain on anyones parade but i just think that we should focus on health and nutrition more than obsessing over CICO. Have a nice day
It's clear that the OP doesn't understand what CICO is, and I'm not sure that you do either.
You are always implementing CICO, no matter what your behaviors are. CICO is a neutral statement regarding energy balance. One can gain, lose, or maintain weight/fat and all of those cases fall under the umbrella of CICO.
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CICO is NOT a weight loss plan - it is a math formula that describes the relationship between calories taken in (CI) and calories expended (CO).
Except with all things with the human body it is never quite as simple as it seems. I used to eye roll and tell people it was simple math. No more.24 -
Munchberry wrote: »CICO is NOT a weight loss plan - it is a math formula that describes the relationship between calories taken in (CI) and calories expended (CO).
Except with all things with the human body it is never quite as simple as it seems. I used to eye roll and tell people it was simple math. No more.
The formula itself is simple math.10 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »Munchberry wrote: »CICO is NOT a weight loss plan - it is a math formula that describes the relationship between calories taken in (CI) and calories expended (CO).
Except with all things with the human body it is never quite as simple as it seems. I used to eye roll and tell people it was simple math. No more.
The formula itself is simple math.
Isn’t it just plus or minus?11
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