March 2018 Running Challenge
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fitoverfortymom wrote: »Can anyone give some advice and guidance on the etiquette for passing and being passed on a single track trail during a race?
@fitoverfortymom Most importantly, start within the right place to avoid this.
Then just consider safety and courtesy to be important.0 -
3/1 6.86miles
3/2 rest
3/3 10miles
3/4 rest
3/5 6.57miles
3/6 5miles
3/7 6miles
Another day, another run.
3/18/2018 Shamrock half marathon
10/7/2018 Crawlin Crab half marathon
10/13/2018 Joggin for Frogmen 5K
11/18/2018 Norfolk Harbor half marathon6 -
fitoverfortymom wrote: »Can anyone give some advice and guidance on the etiquette for passing and being passed on a single track trail during a race?
If someone is running close behind you, don't assume they want to pass, they may be using you to pace. I usually say, "Just let me know if you want to pass". half the time they don't. If they want to pass, you don't need to move over immediately if there's no room to step off the trail. As soon as a spot presents itself, step off, offer words of encouragement, and get back to it. You can usually find a spot within 15 seconds.
Do NOT let someone running close behind you make you feel like you have to run faster. You just run your pace and do your thing. It's their job to let you know they want to pass.
If you're the one passing, just say "On your left" (<- most common way to let someone know you want to pass) and be patient as they find a place they can step off. When they step off, thank them, offer words of encouragement, and keep going.
If you don't want to pass but want to use them for pacing, don't run too close behind. They may feel pressured to run faster, or they may step off and you lose your pacer. I have bad problem running too close behind folks when I don't want to pass.
Time your passing. It's irritating to have someone pass you, only to have to pass them because you run up, or down, hills faster than they do. So consider the terrain before you decide to pass. That's going to happen to some extent, but just consider the upcoming terrain before you pass. if you know you're going to walk up that upcoming hill, maybe hold off.
Most of the time, if you are being passed, you will want to step off to your right, so they can pass on your left. This changes when there is too much brush or whatever on your right. Communicate and say, I'm stepping off to the left, you can pass on the right.
The other situation is when running across steep hills (not up or down, but across). Always step off to the uphill side. The passer may not know this rule, so tell them, I'm stepping off to the <right/left> side.
If the course is an out & back, I feel those in the lead always have right of way, so you step off the trail for everyone coming towards you until you get to the turn around. Once you hit the turn around, you should have right of way but not everyone thinks this way so be prepared to step off to get around if you must. One conflict to this rule is that typically, when two people meet going up and down a hill, the one going up hill has right of way since they're fighting gravity and stopping gets them out of a rhythm. But if that downhill person is on the return part of an out and back, and therefore in the lead, then what? When in doubt, I always step off, and I do it soon enough so they clearly know and we don't have the awkward situation like at a 4-way stop when everyone stops, then goes, then stops, etc.
Usually the trails are not closed to other uses during a race. When passing hikers, going the same direction, be sure to give them an earlier warning than you would for a runner. Though the standard thing to say is "on your left", usually a hiker hears "left" and moves to their left, the realizes their mistake and moves to the right..it can get ugly. To avoid the confusion, I just politely say, "Excuse me, can I sneak through?". Let them decide which way to move. If they have headphones or earbuds and can't hear you, say it anyway. If there is no response, repeat louder, then just try to pass them safely and quickly when there's a spot you can do so
When passing hikers going the other way, unless they move off to the side early, I plan on stepping aside for them, since I feel we're intruding on their space more than they're intruding on ours. They usually move out of my way though. <ETA: It's rare I have to step off for approaching hikers. They usually move first>
Key points
Always pass safely
Always be polite
Never assume you have right of way
If there's any question, communicate your intent and give the other person time to respond.
Some people will be *kitten*. Don't let them *kitten* on your parade.
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MNLittleFinn wrote: »
I always am checking 6. If I see another runner coming up fast behind me, I step to the side and let them pass. If you're coming up to someone, call out to them that you are coming. Hopefully they will move out of the way. Most people do. This is for people who aren't competing to place of course... @JessicaMcB and others like her might have different etiquette since it's a it different for them.fitoverfortymom wrote: »Can anyone give some advice and guidance on the etiquette for passing and being passed on a single track trail during a race?
@MNLittleFinn this is a good way to trip on a rock or a root. I never rarely look behind me. You can hear people coming up and it's their job to let you know what they want to do. They may want to use you for a pacer, or they may want to pass. Now if you're walking and they're running, obviously they will want to pass but if you're both running, I wouldn't assume they want to pass unless the difference in speed makes it obvious. Move of the fast runners get ahead early so this isn't much of an issue.
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@HRKinchen I was just going to encourage you to sign up when I read that you had. Awesome!!
@skippygirlsmom so sorry to hear about your fall. You've had a tough time lately. I'd give you a big hug but that would probably hurt so I clicked the little "Hug" button instead.
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Finally got my first run of the month after 2 weeks off with flu. Don't think I'm going to make my goal now but I'll give it a go.
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fitoverfortymom wrote: »Can anyone give some advice and guidance on the etiquette for passing and being passed on a single track trail during a race?
If someone is running close behind you, don't assume they want to pass, they may be using you to pace. I usually say, "Just let me know if you want to pass". half the time they don't. If they want to pass, you don't need to move over immediately if there's no room to step off the trail. As soon as a spot presents itself, step off, offer words of encouragement, and get back to it. You can usually find a spot within 15 seconds.
Do NOT let someone running close behind you make you feel like you have to run faster. You just run your pace and do your thing. It's their job to let you know they want to pass.
If you're the one passing, just say "On your left" (<- most common way to let someone know you want to pass) and be patient as they find a place they can step off. When they step off, thank them, offer words of encouragement, and keep going.
If you don't want to pass but want to use them for pacing, don't run too close behind. They may feel pressured to run faster, or they may step off and you lose your pacer. I have bad problem running too close behind folks when I don't want to pass.
Time your passing. It's irritating to have someone pass you, only to have to pass them because you run up, or down, hills faster than they do. So consider the terrain before you decide to pass. That's going to happen to some extent, but just consider the upcoming terrain before you pass. if you know you're going to walk up that upcoming hill, maybe hold off.
Most of the time, if you are being passed, you will want to step off to your right, so they can pass on your left. This changes when there is too much brush or whatever on your right. Communicate and say, I'm stepping off to the left, you can pass on the right.
The other situation is when running across steep hills (not up or down, but across). Always step off to the uphill side. The passer may not know this rule, so tell them, I'm stepping off to the <right/left> side.
If the course is an out & back, I feel those in the lead always have right of way, so you step off the trail for everyone coming towards you until you get to the turn around. Once you hit the turn around, you should have right of way but not everyone thinks this way so be prepared to step off to get around if you must. One conflict to this rule is that typically, when two people meet going up and down a hill, the one going up hill has right of way since they're fighting gravity and stopping gets them out of a rhythm. But if that downhill person is on the return part of an out and back, and therefore in the lead, then what? When in doubt, I always step off, and I do it soon enough so they clearly know and we don't have the awkward situation like at a 4-way stop when everyone stops, then goes, then stops, etc.
Usually the trails are not closed to other uses during a race. When passing hikers, going the same direction, be sure to give them an earlier warning than you would for a runner. Though the standard thing to say is "on your left", usually a hiker hears "left" and moves to their left, the realizes their mistake and moves to the right..it can get ugly. To avoid the confusion, I just politely say, "Excuse me, can I sneak through?". Let them decide which way to move. If they have headphones or earbuds and can't hear you, say it anyway. If there is no response, repeat louder, then just try to pass them safely and quickly when there's a spot you can do so
When passing hikers going the other way, unless they move off to the side early, I plan on stepping aside for them, since I feel we're intruding on their space more than they're intruding on ours. They usually move out of my way though. <ETA: It's rare I have to step off for approaching hikers. They usually move first>
Key points
Always pass safely
Always be polite
Never assume you have right of way
If there's any question, communicate your intent and give the other person time to respond.
Some people will be *kitten*. Don't let them *kitten* on your parade.
This.1 -
@skippygirlsmom – Goodness! I hope nothing is broken and the soreness goes away soon.
@PastorVincent – Everyone knows virtual hugs don’t hurt!
@HRKinchen – Yay!
@07KatieP13 – Glad you are feeling better.
@7lenny7 – Thanks for all the trail running etiquette info!
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If you don't want to pass but want to use them for pacing, don't run too close behind. They may feel pressured to run faster, or they may step off and you lose your pacer. I have bad problem running too close behind folks when I don't want to pass.
Another reason not to run too close behind someone is that it's harder to see rocks & roots that may be ahead. Also, if they fall, you have less time to react and may fall over them.
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Thanks for all of the trail advice. I guess it's pretty much what I expected, so that's good. This particular race is a loop (which I also prefer). I'm actually really excited to do a practice run there on Friday.2
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If you don't want to pass but want to use them for pacing, don't run too close behind. They may feel pressured to run faster, or they may step off and you lose your pacer. I have bad problem running too close behind folks when I don't want to pass.
Another reason not to run too close behind someone is that it's harder to see rocks & roots that may be ahead. Also, if they fall, you have less time to react and may fall over them.
I thought fallen runners was just part of what made the trails "technical"
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My biggest problem when coming up on other runners is if I am SLIGHTLY faster than them. So I am caught between slowing down to stay behind them, or speeding up to pass them and continue to gain ground. If I do not speed up then the tendency is for them to speed up and pass me, creating a leap frog scenario for a while0
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PastorVincent wrote: »If you don't want to pass but want to use them for pacing, don't run too close behind. They may feel pressured to run faster, or they may step off and you lose your pacer. I have bad problem running too close behind folks when I don't want to pass.
Another reason not to run too close behind someone is that it's harder to see rocks & roots that may be ahead. Also, if they fall, you have less time to react and may fall over them.
I thought fallen runners was just part of what made the trails "technical"
That brings up another good point, if you see another runner fall, especially if it's @PastorVincent , stop and see if they need help.6 -
PastorVincent wrote: »My biggest problem when coming up on other runners is if I am SLIGHTLY faster than them. So I am caught between slowing down to stay behind them, or speeding up to pass them and continue to gain ground. If I do not speed up then the tendency is for them to speed up and pass me, creating a leap frog scenario for a while
A common problem. If the terrain doesn't look like it's going to change, I'll speed up to get well past them. If there's a hill coming up, I'll usually wait until we get to the hill to see how the relative speeds will change.2 -
Boy kid starts soccer with his new team tonight. Bonus: The practice fields are right next to the hogback (the delineation between not-mountains and mountains heading west from Denver. This means I can do hill run practice and *maybe* a trail while he's at practice. This will give me more trail time during the week!8
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@fitoverfortymom My experience at the Frozen 50 was an extreme example of racing single track on an out and back multiple times with passing in both directions surrounded by knee to hip high snow banks with the single track actively being broken by the lead dog.
It was rough because those of us who were in the front end of the pack had to double back along the same single track other runners were still running up on and the snow was stupid high. It was hard not to feel bad because you need people to move over to make a go for a competitive time but you also realize that they need your *kitten* to move so they can race too.
On the couple of occasions where the top three men were passing I just jumped out the damn way into the snowbank and hoped I didn't bite it and end up at the bottom of the hill to give them the best shot at timing decently (which no one really did but you know...team work makes the dream work ) . By the second or third loop I was pretty aware of who was really struggling to stay in the game or was back or the pack and potentially still trying to close loop 1 and told them to rock on and hit the bank (and high kneed it through as fast as you can really run when the snow is flirting with mid thigh) to give them a break because the course was demoralizing af for a lot of the more recreational people.
Tl;dr: While @7lenny7 is totally right on the keep right, pass left, listen not look for passing runners behind, it only works when you don't have passing in both directions. Use your judgement and common courtesy if you have to deal with dual passing. If you are pretty sure you are a stronger runner than the person who needs to pass you on a dual pass single track course, give them a break- a lot of strong runners forget that they aren't the only ones out there and only we can really change that to keep racing trail inclusive and fun for everyone
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@lporter1239 thanks I think it will take a best effort and good conditions and the ability to run smart.
@midwesterner85 my Garmin seems to be more generous on the treadmill if I run at a slow pace. (It's just numbers right
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@PastorVincent I am going to tell you what you probably already know. Your pace for the first 20 miles should be 8:50 (previous runs suggest that is not pushing it too much and you should have plenty in the tank for the last 10k) This will also give you enough time to struggle and tredge through the last 10k if you are not feeling well at this point. You would only need to average about a 10:30 pace to reach your goal of a sub 4 hour marathon. 10:30 looks to be a recovery pace for you at this point.1 -
I think I am far too polite for running sometimes. My last trail race I was behind people and kept hearing people coming so I waited and waited and waited. I got myself stuck. LOL
I will add what should be an obvious but wasn't in my last race... when doing a single track, don't stop in the middle of the trail because you are afraid of stepping/walking/running down an incline. I almost smacked into the person in front of me and almost had the person behind me smack into me because we all had to suddenly stop because a woman was afraid to keep going down hill (and it wasn't even that bad at that section).
I do wish more people would ask about this kind of stuff in general. Road and trail races would be so much better if everyone knew these general rules.4 -
In addition to all the trail running advice @fitoverfortymom .... Don't worry if you come back with a few bumps and bruises.
I fell on my face. Literally. Face plant. FTW.11 -
RunsOnEspresso wrote: »
I do wish more people would ask about this kind of stuff in general. Road and trail races would be so much better if everyone knew these general rules.
That's why I'm asking! I don't want to be "that girl."
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I'm pretty much expecting to fall down. There's always 1-2 times during my trail runs where I almost eat it on a root or a rock.1
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@Elise4270 I shouldn't laugh, but that's epic.
Roots, Rocks, etc never seem to trip me, it's my own darn feet that always get me..... I guess I need to be watching for them instead....1 -
MNLittleFinn wrote: »@Elise4270 I shouldn't laugh, but that's epic.
Roots, Rocks, etc never seem to trip me, it's my own darn feet that always get me..... I guess I need to be watching for them instead....
Ya welcome.
Do your cross training kids. You don't want those roots to get you when you're hip flexors tire early! To be fair, it was a virgin running trail, mtn bike trail. Nasty roots. Dumb luck I didn't land on a stab and poke my eyes out (cuz I fell lots).
ETA hey it was good I didn't staub my eyes out1 -
I really appreciate the discussion about trail race etiquette! I haven't done a trail race yet but have been looking into a couple of local ones, so it's probably going to happen soon.
Unfortunately due to my bad knee I don't go down steep hills well. I can run down a smooth hill up to a certain incline, but anything that involves leaping or jumping or bounding downhill I need to pick my way down or risk my leg buckling under me. Usually it works out that the easiest way for me to get down (steps or roots) is different from the easiest way for runners to run down (smooth slope) anyway, so we don't interfere with each other, but in crowded conditions I can see that it might well.
Wish everyone on trails knew to respond to "on your left!" I've never had a problem until last week when we encountered a couple of hikers who acted like they owned the park. They were walking slowly, two abreast, on a single foot trail, and when we asked to pass they just looked at us as if we were speaking a different language and carried on. We had to stop completely and say, "Excuse me, could we get through?" before they moved and even then they looked at us like we had grown extra heads or something.0 -
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A couple more bits of trail etiquette, which would seem to be obvious, but apparently not because I seem to come across this every race
- Do not plug both of your ears with ear buds. If you must have your music, just use one ear bud, not two. You need to hear people.
- Do not use a mini speaker clipped on to your pack. Nobody wants to hear your music on the trail. No, not one person. Use a single ear bud if you must.
Which leads me to a third rule- Don't let idiots take away from the joy of trail running.
All these "rules" all come down to common sense and consideration. Unfortunately not everyone has common sense.8 -
I'm using ear buds less and less overall when I run. Never on trails. Doesn't mean everyone else won't, though.
I *loathe* speaker runners.3 -
It was supposed to be -7C this afternoon and instead it's -3C and sunny and I really want to get out and do my optional short 2 mile run even though I'd planned to cross-train today... decisions decisions...3
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