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Why do people deny CICO ?
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It’s just a shame that the results of CICO aren’t as acute/immediate as those of gravity. I mean, I could tell a gravity denier to jump out of a tree headfirst and let us know what happens. Too bad there’s not an equivalent for CICO deniers.I had stomach flu a few times in the past. I didnt eat for days and barely drank fluids yet the scale said I gained 2 lbs. I have gained or lost 10 lbs in a month without changing my diet, but by taking birth control pills or thyroid meds. Some weight loss or gain is hormonal and defies the laws of CICO. But, for the most part it works.
That’s as silly as saying gravity works for the most part. CICO isn’t a kinda sorta maybe sometimes principle. It’s a physical law, just like gravity.
OMFG!!!
I used this same analogy in my discussion earlier. Just because you can launch a ship into space that will (likely) never return to Earth doesn't mean Newton et al was wrong about gravity.
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stevencloser wrote: »Temperature is useless because it doesn't take into account whether I run around naked or dressed like I'm going to climb mount Everest.
Vid or it never... never mind.5 -
Some people just want to ignore reality. "Being morbidly obese is no big deal." "Eating lots of red meat is good for you." "Vegetables are gross." "You are listening to diet nuts and vegetarian freaks and that makes you a nut, too." "Doctors don't know what they are talking about." "Nutritionists don't know what they are talking about." "I would rather eat what I want and die young than eat rabbit food. Besides, it is all crap. I plan to live to 150." Heard all of these comments at one time or another. Doesn't keep me from wanting to eat a better diet and take care of my health.
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stanmann571 wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Temperature is useless because it doesn't take into account whether I run around naked or dressed like I'm going to climb mount Everest.
This is true. I mean, everyone experiences temperature differently. If it's 65 degrees F outside, some people will be chilly and some will be warm. Temperature is a useless myth that is not useful to people so meteorologists should stop reporting it. I'm going to throw out my thermometers, I've always had the feeling they were inaccurate anyway.
See, you completely misunderstand what the purpose of temperature is........
Isn't it temperature that keeps my apartment warm?
It depends on what kind of temperature - gas temperature isn't the same thing as electric temperature.
QFT. Protein farts rule.3 -
stevencloser wrote: »Temperature is useless because it doesn't take into account whether I run around naked or dressed like I'm going to climb mount Everest.
Vid or it never... never mind.
I was looking for a quip that wouldn't be Deeply Inappropriate. I failed.
You win my internet today.5 -
nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.- Following the standard instructions is the only way you will ever figure out you are missing a piece.
- When someone opens their diary and we see they are logging accurately, we then trouble shoot other issues and often finally suggest they get bloodwork done and consult with their doctor.
Not seeing how this invalidates CICO or calorie counting, or makes the typical MFP Forum advice not useful
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ETA: This is the first time I have used the grey question mark emoji, and it is rather anti-climactic considering the grey text box. #emojifail11 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »dangerousdashie wrote: »CICO is confusing. Calories in Calories out- Except for if you eat too little and go into starvation mode you won’t lose weight or you may even gain weight. It confuses me and I’m sure it confuses others too.
@dangerousdashie CICO is confusing only if it is applied to humans which was never the intent of the concept.
For humans at best CICO is a guessing game devoid of real science. It does not explain why people are driven to over/under eat and other causes of human disease and premature deaths.
No one posting here can even produce their own verifiable lab results proving they even know their own CICO so as human health/weight goes CICO is more mystical than anything else since counting calories is no long term protection against obesity.
When I found macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that worked for me then the binging stopped being an eating problem and over time I lost 50 pounds with no weight loss goal. I have maintained that loss for three years with no counting/measuring but just eating the ratio of carbs, protein and fats that work best to recover my health. Now at 67 my health is better than 30 years ago.
What macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that you need to eat can ONLY be determined by your own personal experimenting with different rations. NO one here can tell you how to eat because they do not know you and your health facts.
As a side note I do post under my real name with real profile info on MFP as well as various other non health forums as Google will show you. Currently I am binging on buying and rehabbing Ford tractors from mid 60's and up. This form of binging has not changed my weight either but keeps me moving.
Best of success.
If CICO wasn't meant to describe how weight loss/gain works for humans and other animals, what was the intention?
https://google.com/search?q=cico&oq=CICO&aqs=chrome.0.0l2j35i39j0l3.6711j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
This is what I got when I Googled the term CICO.
What do you think this demonstrates?
Also, are you aware that different people googling the same thing will get different results?
It clearly demonstrates CICO has no universal meaning hence its myth like quality.
While CICO is what it is it still is without functional value to better health because it remains undefined.
It leads some to think a Calorie Is A Calorie which is not factual when we are talking about humans. You may find the below helpful in clearing up misconceptions on this subject.
blog.myfitnesspal.com/essential-guide-metabolism/
Ok Gale, I'll bite... please give me a direct quote from the article that says calories are not all the same and the CICO is invalid when applied to humans or in any other way refutes the statements that have been made in this discussion (or supports the other side where CICO is bunk).8 -
This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums. You all claim to be so supportive. I never indicated a misunderstanding on CICO nor did I say it doesn't work. I started by saying it was the way to lose weight however the execution was not that simple and get jumped on for not understanding CICO or I must be new. I have been on MFP for 7 years on and off. I have lost an extreme amount of weight but since I don't have 14k posts, my 170lb weight loss must not indicate any knowledge if weight loss or the struggles.
I am on many ither forums that I highly participate in because they are far more positive and supportive. MFP is the best for calorie counting but the worst for advice and support.
I’m afraid I’m with you there. Whether it is intentional misunderstanding, or one sided demands for evidence and one sided rejection of anecdotal support - or strawman restatements of my discussion points or my questions, or the multiple dismissive (at best) immediate response posts by the usual suspects. Or the latest - one person saying CICO isn’t calorie counting and the next person saying CICO is the calorie component to weight loss (get your story straight, gals) — I never did figure out how to communicate without the bash/ ridicule/ woo fest commencing. Just a little ‘I feel for you’ post before I disappear into the woodwork again - so no one needs to respond, I’ll be properly silent in my disagreement, disregard or even simple queries for some time after this again.
You are not alone, but probably anyone reasonable who might agree with some or all of what you have posted (like me) have long since given up.
Calorie counting isn't the same as the mechanism by which calories are operating. There's not a story that's not straight.
Calories are ingested, and calories are burned. You can count them or not. The ingestion and burning still happens even if you're blissfully ignorant of the fact.
Now, technically, you're not ingesting calories themselves, but they are a measure we use to indicate the energy provided by the food we eat. But this is a whole other discussion.15 -
nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
Usually the instructions for this sort of thing includes an inventory list. ... Just sayin'. So presumably, if you're missing a piece, you would know if you read the instructions.
I cannot believe how patient some of the other people in this forum are.
That, and it seems highly reminiscent of the threads we see where - on page 2 or 3 - oh, yeah OP has undisclosed medical issues (aka the cracked board). Oh, you have PCOS? Yeah - low carb would probably be a really good idea for you. But, until that was disclosed, there was no reason for anyone to think OP would "need" low-carb.6 -
I 'm gonna go a different way here. (Trigger warning: It may be unsympathetic . . . but this is the debate forum.)
I have a woman in my friend feed. She is younger than me, taller than me. When I first "met" her, she was still significantly overweight. She was eating something like 1000-1100 calories, but being moderately active.
I questioned her calorie intake; it seemed astonishingly low. She said she'd been working at weight loss for a long time, including the right consults with professionals. She had found no way to lose without eating this little, and still lost only slowly. But she'd done her research, made up her mind to cram absolutely as much top notch nutrition as she could into very limited calories, stay busy (NEAT-wise) and exercise to the extent feasible within certain injury limitations that affected her at the time.
I looked at her food diary. It was detailed, meticulous, impressive. She was getting much better nutrition on 1100 calories than most MFP-ers I've seen get on twice that budget. I saw what she did for exercise activity, saw the level headed comments she made, saw her patiently chip away at weight loss over a long time. For these and other reasons, I believed everything she logged and wrote.
As her physical issues resolved, she got a trainer and started more intensive exercise, including progressive weight training. When she finally reached goal weight, she started patiently and very slowly increasing calories in "reverse dieting" fashion, keeping the stellar nutrition.
Overall, she's lost 70+ pounds, looks great, can eat a bit more now (still pretty low for her age and size). At last report, all is well. I'm sure she wishes she could eat more, but I can't say I've ever seen much comment about that.
Because of her, I'm more likely to engage with and try to encourage people who may be in a similar spot with respect to calorie requirements (though, because of TOS, I won't advocate VLCD for anyone).
I see people here moderately often who "can't lose", feel it's unfair, appear resentful of those who (like me) can eat more, chase fads and strange metabolic theories, etc. Some are quick to take neutral questions or advice as criticism. (I'm not putting all "can't lose" folks in these categories, BTW . . . but there is an observable incidence.)
I try to be understanding and sympathetic to everyone, though it's really not a native part of my nature. I try really hard, I swear. I know I don't always succeed. And I'll admit to being judgemental on the inside, sometimes, even as I try to keep it out of my posts.
Attitude and outlook are relevant to weight loss success, along with the much-maligned CICO. Relevant to life balance, satisfaction, happiness, too.
One can spend energy wanting to change one's circumstances, or one can spend energy changing one's behavior. One of these has better odds of success.
THIS. Dear Glob THIS.
I will just share a small glimpse into my personal life, which I almost ruined. I was in a deep depression, but part of that was of my own making because my mindset was such that I didn't feel I had any agency in what happened to me. When I first became ill, it devastated me, and I packed on the pounds and became less active and just felt hopeless.
Turning my life around, finding my way to optimism and agency and seeing the glass that had been half empty as being half full (heck, now I feel like it's brimming over, I'm so overwhelmed by gratitude to have turned my life around) has made all the difference in the world.
I've even had a new diagnosis within the past few months and just shrugged and continued on because I've learned that life really is better when you concentrate on what you do have and can do instead of what you don't have and can't do.18 -
nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
Usually the instructions for this sort of thing includes an inventory list. ... Just sayin'. So presumably, if you're missing a piece, you would know if you read the instructions.
I cannot believe how patient some of the other people in this forum are.
That, and it seems highly reminiscent of the threads we see where - on page 2 or 3 - oh, yeah OP has undisclosed medical issues (aka the cracked board). Oh, you have PCOS? Yeah - low carb would probably be a really good idea for you. But, until that was disclosed, there was no reason for anyone to think OP would "need" low-carb.
So why would a low carb diet be a good idea for PCOS, and why would having PCOS even matter if it's ALL down to CICO (and low carb only works due to cutting out calories)??
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums. You all claim to be so supportive. I never indicated a misunderstanding on CICO nor did I say it doesn't work. I started by saying it was the way to lose weight however the execution was not that simple and get jumped on for not understanding CICO or I must be new. I have been on MFP for 7 years on and off. I have lost an extreme amount of weight but since I don't have 14k posts, my 170lb weight loss must not indicate any knowledge if weight loss or the struggles.
I am on many ither forums that I highly participate in because they are far more positive and supportive. MFP is the best for calorie counting but the worst for advice and support.
I’m afraid I’m with you there. Whether it is intentional misunderstanding, or one sided demands for evidence and one sided rejection of anecdotal support - or strawman restatements of my discussion points or my questions, or the multiple dismissive (at best) immediate response posts by the usual suspects. Or the latest - one person saying CICO isn’t calorie counting and the next person saying CICO is the calorie component to weight loss (get your story straight, gals) — I never did figure out how to communicate without the bash/ ridicule/ woo fest commencing. Just a little ‘I feel for you’ post before I disappear into the woodwork again - so no one needs to respond, I’ll be properly silent in my disagreement, disregard or even simple queries for some time after this again.
You are not alone, but probably anyone reasonable who might agree with some or all of what you have posted (like me) have long since given up.
Calorie counting isn't the same as the mechanism by which calories are operating. There's not a story that's not straight.
Calories are ingested, and calories are burned. You can count them or not. The ingestion and burning still happens even if you're blissfully ignorant of the fact.
Now, technically, you're not ingesting calories themselves, but they are a measure we use to indicate the energy provided by the food we eat. But this is a whole other discussion.
Where's Shouty Guy when you need him?
NB: He makes just as much sense as the CICO deniers in most MFP threads on this topic. His presentation is just a little unpolished. 8 -
nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
Usually the instructions for this sort of thing includes an inventory list. ... Just sayin'. So presumably, if you're missing a piece, you would know if you read the instructions.
I cannot believe how patient some of the other people in this forum are.
That, and it seems highly reminiscent of the threads we see where - on page 2 or 3 - oh, yeah OP has undisclosed medical issues (aka the cracked board). Oh, you have PCOS? Yeah - low carb would probably be a really good idea for you. But, until that was disclosed, there was no reason for anyone to think OP would "need" low-carb.
So why would a low carb diet be a good idea for PCOS, and why would having PCOS even matter if it's ALL down to CICO (and low carb only works due to cutting out calories)??
Because PCOS is a metabolic disorder that has a huge effect on both sides of the CICO balancing act... Honestly, it's like you're being deliberately dishonest and obtuse in this debate.
Whatever happened to debating in good faith?12 -
TicoCortez wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
And in this analogy how would you feel about someone who insists that process given in the instructions for building the shelf, and the math used to measure the number of parts necessary (you know...counting them) is obviously flawed by nature because you, and and others got boxes with missing parts? I mean, isn't the correct answer, "Use the same process to build the shelf, and make sure to count the parts, while taking steps to correct other possible issues, like contacting customer service to get replacement parts sent? None of which changes the underlying requirements for achieving a functional bookshelf
Essentially, recognize that the underlying process is what it is, count all the parts, and if there are other issues affecting that process, adjust as necessary to get your desired end result. Changing the energy balance is how one loses weight. The standard math formula to measure that balance is CICO. Nutrient balance, special dietary/medical needs are the other issues one needs to address. This can be addressed by different diets, kinds of exercise, medicine, etc.. Weight loss** is the bookshelf.
**Or whatever one may choose as a goal.
But I never said that the underlying instructions are flawed. It's just that adhering to them will not always be enough to produce the results they're expected to produce - because of other things that may interfere. Considering the possibility that a part can, in fact, be damaged, is much more helpful than just insisting that the person must go over the instructions again and again just to make sure he didn't miss a screw (even though the missing screw would make a lot less difference to the finished product than, say, a broken board). Yes, in most cases going over the instructions is enough to fix it, but in some cases, you do need to go and spend hours on the phone with customer service and then wait a long time for a replacement part. ( I have never put together a piece of furniture in my life btw so take my examples with a grain of salt, haha. )
CICO isn't 'flawed' as a concept. But we're not talking g about it purely as a concept in this forum. We're talking about caloric restriction as a weight loss method, and that is what really should be at the center of the debate.17 -
nettiklive wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
And in this analogy how would you feel about someone who insists that process given in the instructions for building the shelf, and the math used to measure the number of parts necessary (you know...counting them) is obviously flawed by nature because you, and and others got boxes with missing parts? I mean, isn't the correct answer, "Use the same process to build the shelf, and make sure to count the parts, while taking steps to correct other possible issues, like contacting customer service to get replacement parts sent? None of which changes the underlying requirements for achieving a functional bookshelf
Essentially, recognize that the underlying process is what it is, count all the parts, and if there are other issues affecting that process, adjust as necessary to get your desired end result. Changing the energy balance is how one loses weight. The standard math formula to measure that balance is CICO. Nutrient balance, special dietary/medical needs are the other issues one needs to address. This can be addressed by different diets, kinds of exercise, medicine, etc.. Weight loss** is the bookshelf.
**Or whatever one may choose as a goal.
But I never said that the underlying instructions are flawed. It's just that adhering to them will not always be enough to produce the results they're expected to produce - because of other things that may interfere. Considering the possibility that a part can, in fact, be damaged, is much more helpful than just insisting that the person must go over the instructions again and again just to make sure he didn't miss a screw (even though the missing screw would make a lot less difference to the finished product than, say, a broken board). Yes, in most cases going over the instructions is enough to fix it, but in some cases, you do need to go and spend hours on the phone with customer service and then wait a long time for a replacement part. ( I have never put together a piece of furniture in my life btw so take my examples with a grain of salt, haha. )
CICO isn't 'flawed' as a concept. But we're not talking g about it purely as a concept in this forum. We're talking about caloric restriction as a weight loss method, and that is what really should be at the center of the debate.
I will 100% guarantee you that not adhering to CICO will always not be enough to produce the results you want.
Other than that, you're conflating issues again and not addressing the initial topic. Again.
This thread has gotten long and convoluted and maybe you've missed a few relevant parts here and there. Allow me to summarize the contentions for you:
1) When you consume less calories than you expend, that is called a "caloric deficit". A "caloric deficit" has been scientifically proven (over and over again) to cause weight loss.
2) What constitutes a "caloric deficit" will not be the same for every person. Not even for every person of the exact same size, age and gender. For various reasons.
3) There are medical conditions which can affect the equation. This is relevant to #2 above. But the things that apply to people with medical conditions don't necessarily apply to people without said medical conditions.
4) There are behavioral issues which can affect one's ability to adhere to a diet and thus maintain said "caloric deficit". This has nothing whatsoever to do with CICO itself and is wholly irrelevant to the conversation. It is a separate topic all its own. It is a moot point in this discussion.
5) Regardless of the above, if you are in a "caloric deficit", by whatever means that is accomplished, you will lose weight. What constitutes a "caloric deficit" to you may not be the same as what constitutes a "caloric deficit" to somebody else (remember #2 and #3 above?), but you must be in a "caloric deficit" to lose weight. There is absolutely no other way to do so. Period.20 -
nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
Usually the instructions for this sort of thing includes an inventory list. ... Just sayin'. So presumably, if you're missing a piece, you would know if you read the instructions.
I cannot believe how patient some of the other people in this forum are.
That, and it seems highly reminiscent of the threads we see where - on page 2 or 3 - oh, yeah OP has undisclosed medical issues (aka the cracked board). Oh, you have PCOS? Yeah - low carb would probably be a really good idea for you. But, until that was disclosed, there was no reason for anyone to think OP would "need" low-carb.
So why would a low carb diet be a good idea for PCOS, and why would having PCOS even matter if it's ALL down to CICO (and low carb only works due to cutting out calories)??
How many times do we have to say "medically normal"?
PCOS is not medically normal. Enough people here have PCOS that they can tell others with PCOS that low carb may help them.
If I force-feed a diabetic a massive portion of cake and frosting, they will respond very differently than I will. They have a medical condition. Me, I just gain weight if I eat too much cake.
The woman with PCOS is bound by CICO. The diabetic is bound by CICO. I am bound by CICO. Their medical conditions make their effective CI different from mine. As a consequence, they may struggle more with calorie counting . . . or not, once they figure out how particular foods relate to their CI.
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nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
Usually the instructions for this sort of thing includes an inventory list. ... Just sayin'. So presumably, if you're missing a piece, you would know if you read the instructions.
I cannot believe how patient some of the other people in this forum are.
That, and it seems highly reminiscent of the threads we see where - on page 2 or 3 - oh, yeah OP has undisclosed medical issues (aka the cracked board). Oh, you have PCOS? Yeah - low carb would probably be a really good idea for you. But, until that was disclosed, there was no reason for anyone to think OP would "need" low-carb.
So why would a low carb diet be a good idea for PCOS, and why would having PCOS even matter if it's ALL down to CICO (and low carb only works due to cutting out calories)??
Because people with PCOS often have insulin resistance, and for them (and that), a low carb diet is helpful. It is all down to calories, but certain medical conditions can muddy the waters. Even on a low carb diet, you still need to count calories.
8 -
nettiklive wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
And in this analogy how would you feel about someone who insists that process given in the instructions for building the shelf, and the math used to measure the number of parts necessary (you know...counting them) is obviously flawed by nature because you, and and others got boxes with missing parts? I mean, isn't the correct answer, "Use the same process to build the shelf, and make sure to count the parts, while taking steps to correct other possible issues, like contacting customer service to get replacement parts sent? None of which changes the underlying requirements for achieving a functional bookshelf
Essentially, recognize that the underlying process is what it is, count all the parts, and if there are other issues affecting that process, adjust as necessary to get your desired end result. Changing the energy balance is how one loses weight. The standard math formula to measure that balance is CICO. Nutrient balance, special dietary/medical needs are the other issues one needs to address. This can be addressed by different diets, kinds of exercise, medicine, etc.. Weight loss** is the bookshelf.
**Or whatever one may choose as a goal.
But I never said that the underlying instructions are flawed. It's just that adhering to them will not always be enough to produce the results they're expected to produce - because of other things that may interfere. Considering the possibility that a part can, in fact, be damaged, is much more helpful than just insisting that the person must go over the instructions again and again just to make sure he didn't miss a screw (even though the missing screw would make a lot less difference to the finished product than, say, a broken board). Yes, in most cases going over the instructions is enough to fix it, but in some cases, you do need to go and spend hours on the phone with customer service and then wait a long time for a replacement part. ( I have never put together a piece of furniture in my life btw so take my examples with a grain of salt, haha. )
CICO isn't 'flawed' as a concept. But we're not talking g about it purely as a concept in this forum. We're talking about caloric restriction as a weight loss method, and that is what really should be at the center of the debate.
I am going to revisit my recommendation that you talk to your doctor.
You are fixated on this idea that people can be so broken that physics don't apply to them, and that this is a commonplace.
It's not, and frankly, your posts are concerning.
You have been told time and again that these nightmare scenarios that you envision don't happen, and you keep seeking them out and dreaming them up and there has to come a point where you either take on board the information that people who know far more than you do are trying to impart, or you realize that you're on a dangerous path and take stock of yourself.17 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
Usually the instructions for this sort of thing includes an inventory list. ... Just sayin'. So presumably, if you're missing a piece, you would know if you read the instructions.
I cannot believe how patient some of the other people in this forum are.
That, and it seems highly reminiscent of the threads we see where - on page 2 or 3 - oh, yeah OP has undisclosed medical issues (aka the cracked board). Oh, you have PCOS? Yeah - low carb would probably be a really good idea for you. But, until that was disclosed, there was no reason for anyone to think OP would "need" low-carb.
So why would a low carb diet be a good idea for PCOS, and why would having PCOS even matter if it's ALL down to CICO (and low carb only works due to cutting out calories)??
Because people with PCOS often have insulin resistance, and for them (and that), a low carb diet is helpful. It is all down to calories, but certain medical conditions can muddy the waters. Even on a low carb diet, you still need to count calories.
Speaking of insulin resistance - all the Fung sycophants spout his malarkey about insulin being the cause of obesity. Would it not make sense, then, that being insulin resistant would actually make it easier to lose weight, since you're not as prone to insulin causing fat storage as he claims? His entire theory about the cause of obesity hinges around insulin and he's an adamant CICO denier despite mountains of science proving he's wrong. He sure sells a lot of books, though. P.T. Barnum was right about a sucker being born every minute.11 -
nettiklive wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
And in this analogy how would you feel about someone who insists that process given in the instructions for building the shelf, and the math used to measure the number of parts necessary (you know...counting them) is obviously flawed by nature because you, and and others got boxes with missing parts? I mean, isn't the correct answer, "Use the same process to build the shelf, and make sure to count the parts, while taking steps to correct other possible issues, like contacting customer service to get replacement parts sent? None of which changes the underlying requirements for achieving a functional bookshelf
Essentially, recognize that the underlying process is what it is, count all the parts, and if there are other issues affecting that process, adjust as necessary to get your desired end result. Changing the energy balance is how one loses weight. The standard math formula to measure that balance is CICO. Nutrient balance, special dietary/medical needs are the other issues one needs to address. This can be addressed by different diets, kinds of exercise, medicine, etc.. Weight loss** is the bookshelf.
**Or whatever one may choose as a goal.
But I never said that the underlying instructions are flawed. It's just that adhering to them will not always be enough to produce the results they're expected to produce - because of other things that may interfere. Considering the possibility that a part can, in fact, be damaged, is much more helpful than just insisting that the person must go over the instructions again and again just to make sure he didn't miss a screw (even though the missing screw would make a lot less difference to the finished product than, say, a broken board). Yes, in most cases going over the instructions is enough to fix it, but in some cases, you do need to go and spend hours on the phone with customer service and then wait a long time for a replacement part. ( I have never put together a piece of furniture in my life btw so take my examples with a grain of salt, haha. )
CICO isn't 'flawed' as a concept. But we're not talking g about it purely as a concept in this forum. We're talking about caloric restriction as a weight loss method, and that is what really should be at the center of the debate.
I worked at a computer help desk. Presented with a certain type of anecdote, I will ask "Is it plugged in?" . Some will glance at it and say "yes". Some (not many) will glance and say "Ooops, sorry I wasted your time! I feel so stupid!" and I'll reassure them that they've merely made a helpful contribution to my job security. Some will be offended that I thought they were stupid, and read me the riot act or hang up on me.
I will always be as polite, speedy and constructive as I can be with each one. Caller #3's problem will always take longer to solve, because of how they approached the dialog. They will also experience negative emotions, which is regrettable for them, because of how they approached the dialog. They will blame me. (I don't care, because I've met callers #1 & #2, too.)
On MFP, presented with a certain type of anecdote, I will always ask "how do you measure your intake?" . . . .
15
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