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Anyone cutting after a bulk?

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Replies

  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator
    psuLemon wrote: »
    Carbs help my performance, get rid of my cramps but increases hunger which makes it difficult to stay in a deficit.

    If I can throw in another question. How has sleep been for you?

    Lower sleep always increases hunger for me. (Leptin/Ghrelin and all that jazz)

    That is the case as we speak and I could eat a 1000 cals in a minute but my meals are done for the day :(

    Honestly sleep isn't a strong suit. I usually get 6 or 7 hours. Pretty much been that way since i had kids. Unfortunately, the only time i can workout is 830 or 9pm after i get my kids to bed. And then i am at work at 6am.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator
    psuLemon wrote: »
    So it sucks trying to get lean. Dropped a few pounds while adding carbs back (100-130g) but holy *kitten*, has my hunger returned like no other.

    Its a crappy predicament, keto suppressed my appetite but I couldn't get passed the frequent cramping. It got me leaner than i ever have been since middle school. Carbs help my performance, get rid of my cramps but increases hunger which makes it difficult to stay in a deficit.

    Struggling to decide how i can attack this. Any ideas or personal experiences? I have unintentionally recomped over the past 2 years but no where as lean as I want.

    I hear you, it's not easy cuttings cals

    Fairly new to this thread so I don't know exactly when you started however it could just be a factor of giving it a bit more time. The body is immensely adaptable but maybe the transition from low(keto to mod carbs was too fast?

    My current cut, I slowly tapered my carbs and fats reducing them in the order of 10's of grams. It's a mental hack has that worked for me (vs the standard 500 cals or what have you) and is still working about 2 weeks in.

    You make a fair point. I went from 30-50g up to 100-130g of carbs pretty quickly so i could eliminate the cramping. I might just have to scale it a bit more. So drop some fat and add carbs back slowly until i hit a comfortable point.


    Background: About a decade ago i went from 220 down to 173-175 through diet, MyFitnessPal and TKD & jujitsu. After i moved, i then transition to the P90X series and then BodyBeast. About 4 years ago, I transitioned to serious lifting and started to follow structured programs. I had some good 1RM last summer (bench - 250, DL - 350, Squat - 280) but ran into back and shoulder injuries (ironically not from lifting but rather my daughter being crazy and kept jumping on me or in my arms). Still not 100% but making progress.

    Weight has fluctuated between 168 and 182. Usually high after the winter holidays and my last Keto run is when i hit 168. My low on a high carb diet has been 173. So some anecdotal evidence that my body does better with lower carbs.

    Over the years, i have tried a bunch of diets. Mainly because my wife has been through hell medically and it encourages me to learn different cooking techniques. Still trying to help my wife hone in on a diet that works for her medical issues and her ability to comply.

    Diets i have tried: General calorie counting, MFP + high protein + high fiber, IIFYM, Paleo, IF (16:8), Keto, low fat, and Keto.

    The reason i went Keto was because after years of on and off calorie counting, i just couldn't comply with IIFYM. I needed something that had restriction because a little treats turned into more. If it wasn't for the cramping, I would have stayed Keto. Overall, i enjoyed the foods and it satiated me... Well unless i was doing dirty Keto. So a focus on whole food Keto was ideal.

    I love to cook and often make gourmet meals. So that isn't an issue.
  • happysquatterhappysquatter Member, Premium Posts: 91 Member Member, Premium Posts: 91 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    So it sucks trying to get lean. Dropped a few pounds while adding carbs back (100-130g) but holy *kitten*, has my hunger returned like no other.

    Its a crappy predicament, keto suppressed my appetite but I couldn't get passed the frequent cramping. It got me leaner than i ever have been since middle school. Carbs help my performance, get rid of my cramps but increases hunger which makes it difficult to stay in a deficit.

    Struggling to decide how i can attack this. Any ideas or personal experiences? I have unintentionally recomped over the past 2 years but no where as lean as I want.

    I hear you, it's not easy cuttings cals

    Fairly new to this thread so I don't know exactly when you started however it could just be a factor of giving it a bit more time. The body is immensely adaptable but maybe the transition from low(keto to mod carbs was too fast?

    My current cut, I slowly tapered my carbs and fats reducing them in the order of 10's of grams. It's a mental hack has that worked for me (vs the standard 500 cals or what have you) and is still working about 2 weeks in.

    You make a fair point. I went from 30-50g up to 100-130g of carbs pretty quickly so i could eliminate the cramping. I might just have to scale it a bit more. So drop some fat and add carbs back slowly until i hit a comfortable point.


    Background: About a decade ago i went from 220 down to 173-175 through diet, MyFitnessPal and TKD & jujitsu. After i moved, i then transition to the P90X series and then BodyBeast. About 4 years ago, I transitioned to serious lifting and started to follow structured programs. I had some good 1RM last summer (bench - 250, DL - 350, Squat - 280) but ran into back and shoulder injuries (ironically not from lifting but rather my daughter being crazy and kept jumping on me or in my arms). Still not 100% but making progress.

    Weight has fluctuated between 168 and 182. Usually high after the winter holidays and my last Keto run is when i hit 168. My low on a high carb diet has been 173. So some anecdotal evidence that my body does better with lower carbs.

    Over the years, i have tried a bunch of diets. Mainly because my wife has been through hell medically and it encourages me to learn different cooking techniques. Still trying to help my wife hone in on a diet that works for her medical issues and her ability to comply.

    Diets i have tried: General calorie counting, MFP + high protein + high fiber, IIFYM, Paleo, IF (16:8), Keto, low fat, and Keto.

    The reason i went Keto was because after years of on and off calorie counting, i just couldn't comply with IIFYM. I needed something that had restriction because a little treats turned into more. If it wasn't for the cramping, I would have stayed Keto. Overall, i enjoyed the foods and it satiated me... Well unless i was doing dirty Keto. So a focus on whole food Keto was ideal.

    I love to cook and often make gourmet meals. So that isn't an issue.

    Thanks for the update!

    Sleep is tough for me too with two kids still pretty young and I'm at work pretty much the same hour as you.

    It took me a while to set up a routine that got me working out well before bedtime (mostly midday sessions, some 4:15/30pm ones) but I found that to be really helpful.

    I would overweight importance of trying to get more sleep if you can, over the carb difference. Not that the latter won't help but that the former can negate pretty much a large part of the fat loss effect of cal deficits+RT. And then some!

    Two week experiment?


  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    So it sucks trying to get lean. Dropped a few pounds while adding carbs back (100-130g) but holy *kitten*, has my hunger returned like no other.

    Its a crappy predicament, keto suppressed my appetite but I couldn't get passed the frequent cramping. It got me leaner than i ever have been since middle school. Carbs help my performance, get rid of my cramps but increases hunger which makes it difficult to stay in a deficit.

    Struggling to decide how i can attack this. Any ideas or personal experiences? I have unintentionally recomped over the past 2 years but no where as lean as I want.

    I hear you, it's not easy cuttings cals

    Fairly new to this thread so I don't know exactly when you started however it could just be a factor of giving it a bit more time. The body is immensely adaptable but maybe the transition from low(keto to mod carbs was too fast?

    My current cut, I slowly tapered my carbs and fats reducing them in the order of 10's of grams. It's a mental hack has that worked for me (vs the standard 500 cals or what have you) and is still working about 2 weeks in.

    You make a fair point. I went from 30-50g up to 100-130g of carbs pretty quickly so i could eliminate the cramping. I might just have to scale it a bit more. So drop some fat and add carbs back slowly until i hit a comfortable point.


    Background: About a decade ago i went from 220 down to 173-175 through diet, MyFitnessPal and TKD & jujitsu. After i moved, i then transition to the P90X series and then BodyBeast. About 4 years ago, I transitioned to serious lifting and started to follow structured programs. I had some good 1RM last summer (bench - 250, DL - 350, Squat - 280) but ran into back and shoulder injuries (ironically not from lifting but rather my daughter being crazy and kept jumping on me or in my arms). Still not 100% but making progress.

    Weight has fluctuated between 168 and 182. Usually high after the winter holidays and my last Keto run is when i hit 168. My low on a high carb diet has been 173. So some anecdotal evidence that my body does better with lower carbs.

    Over the years, i have tried a bunch of diets. Mainly because my wife has been through hell medically and it encourages me to learn different cooking techniques. Still trying to help my wife hone in on a diet that works for her medical issues and her ability to comply.

    Diets i have tried: General calorie counting, MFP + high protein + high fiber, IIFYM, Paleo, IF (16:8), Keto, low fat, and Keto.

    The reason i went Keto was because after years of on and off calorie counting, i just couldn't comply with IIFYM. I needed something that had restriction because a little treats turned into more. If it wasn't for the cramping, I would have stayed Keto. Overall, i enjoyed the foods and it satiated me... Well unless i was doing dirty Keto. So a focus on whole food Keto was ideal.

    I love to cook and often make gourmet meals. So that isn't an issue.

    Thanks for the update!

    Sleep is tough for me too with two kids still pretty young and I'm at work pretty much the same hour as you.

    It took me a while to set up a routine that got me working out well before bedtime (mostly midday sessions, some 4:15/30pm ones) but I found that to be really helpful.

    I would overweight importance of trying to get more sleep if you can, over the carb difference. Not that the latter won't help but that the former can negate pretty much a large part of the fat loss effect of cal deficits+RT. And then some!

    Two week experiment?


    Thanks. I'll try to get more sleep to see if that can help. I certainly recognize the impact on cortisol with lack of sleep.

    From a nutrition point, I think increasing protein to 1.2g/lb (~200g) and reducing my fats (~50-70g) is probably going to be my plan.
  • sardelsasardelsa Member, Premium Posts: 9,827 Member Member, Premium Posts: 9,827 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    So it sucks trying to get lean. Dropped a few pounds while adding carbs back (100-130g) but holy *kitten*, has my hunger returned like no other.

    Its a crappy predicament, keto suppressed my appetite but I couldn't get passed the frequent cramping. It got me leaner than i ever have been since middle school. Carbs help my performance, get rid of my cramps but increases hunger which makes it difficult to stay in a deficit.

    Struggling to decide how i can attack this. Any ideas or personal experiences? I have unintentionally recomped over the past 2 years but no where as lean as I want.

    I hear you, it's not easy cuttings cals

    Fairly new to this thread so I don't know exactly when you started however it could just be a factor of giving it a bit more time. The body is immensely adaptable but maybe the transition from low(keto to mod carbs was too fast?

    My current cut, I slowly tapered my carbs and fats reducing them in the order of 10's of grams. It's a mental hack has that worked for me (vs the standard 500 cals or what have you) and is still working about 2 weeks in.

    You make a fair point. I went from 30-50g up to 100-130g of carbs pretty quickly so i could eliminate the cramping. I might just have to scale it a bit more. So drop some fat and add carbs back slowly until i hit a comfortable point.


    Background: About a decade ago i went from 220 down to 173-175 through diet, MyFitnessPal and TKD & jujitsu. After i moved, i then transition to the P90X series and then BodyBeast. About 4 years ago, I transitioned to serious lifting and started to follow structured programs. I had some good 1RM last summer (bench - 250, DL - 350, Squat - 280) but ran into back and shoulder injuries (ironically not from lifting but rather my daughter being crazy and kept jumping on me or in my arms). Still not 100% but making progress.

    Weight has fluctuated between 168 and 182. Usually high after the winter holidays and my last Keto run is when i hit 168. My low on a high carb diet has been 173. So some anecdotal evidence that my body does better with lower carbs.

    Over the years, i have tried a bunch of diets. Mainly because my wife has been through hell medically and it encourages me to learn different cooking techniques. Still trying to help my wife hone in on a diet that works for her medical issues and her ability to comply.

    Diets i have tried: General calorie counting, MFP + high protein + high fiber, IIFYM, Paleo, IF (16:8), Keto, low fat, and Keto.

    The reason i went Keto was because after years of on and off calorie counting, i just couldn't comply with IIFYM. I needed something that had restriction because a little treats turned into more. If it wasn't for the cramping, I would have stayed Keto. Overall, i enjoyed the foods and it satiated me... Well unless i was doing dirty Keto. So a focus on whole food Keto was ideal.

    I love to cook and often make gourmet meals. So that isn't an issue.

    Thanks for the update!

    Sleep is tough for me too with two kids still pretty young and I'm at work pretty much the same hour as you.

    It took me a while to set up a routine that got me working out well before bedtime (mostly midday sessions, some 4:15/30pm ones) but I found that to be really helpful.

    I would overweight importance of trying to get more sleep if you can, over the carb difference. Not that the latter won't help but that the former can negate pretty much a large part of the fat loss effect of cal deficits+RT. And then some!

    Two week experiment?


    Thanks. I'll try to get more sleep to see if that can help. I certainly recognize the impact on cortisol with lack of sleep.

    From a nutrition point, I think increasing protein to 1.2g/lb (~200g) and reducing my fats (~50-70g) is probably going to be my plan.

    Hopefully you find something that works.

    Oh sleep, what is that again? :D

    Right now I feel like my training sucks, sleep sucks, diet sucks. Can you actually imagine if I had all those things in most optimal order, what my physique would look like. Oh well, we can only do what we can.
  • happysquatterhappysquatter Member, Premium Posts: 91 Member Member, Premium Posts: 91 Member
    Yeah, Nuckols has some good work out on it.

    Sounds like a plan 🙂 Good luck
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator
    @psuLemon Try adding some nuts to your diet if you're not allergic or anything like that. This is only my experience, but I eat 1 ounce of almonds, 1 ounce of walnuts and 1 ounce of pecans per day (560 cals for 3 ounces of food, I know), but even though it's a pitiful amount it seems to keep me satiated better than other things (14 total carbs before subtracting dietary fiber).

    As an aside, I've found eggs to be very satisfying. It makes me wonder if its because it's a "complete" protein (Amino acids and what not) vs. some other foods that aren't 'complete' (pork rinds, for example)

    I love me some nuts. My house is stocked with macadamia, almonds, peanuts, cashews, hazelnut, walnuts, pecans and pumpkin seeds. Its one of my staples while i was doing Keto. I often use them in salads or a side to a meal.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator
    sardelsa wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    So it sucks trying to get lean. Dropped a few pounds while adding carbs back (100-130g) but holy *kitten*, has my hunger returned like no other.

    Its a crappy predicament, keto suppressed my appetite but I couldn't get passed the frequent cramping. It got me leaner than i ever have been since middle school. Carbs help my performance, get rid of my cramps but increases hunger which makes it difficult to stay in a deficit.

    Struggling to decide how i can attack this. Any ideas or personal experiences? I have unintentionally recomped over the past 2 years but no where as lean as I want.

    I hear you, it's not easy cuttings cals

    Fairly new to this thread so I don't know exactly when you started however it could just be a factor of giving it a bit more time. The body is immensely adaptable but maybe the transition from low(keto to mod carbs was too fast?

    My current cut, I slowly tapered my carbs and fats reducing them in the order of 10's of grams. It's a mental hack has that worked for me (vs the standard 500 cals or what have you) and is still working about 2 weeks in.

    You make a fair point. I went from 30-50g up to 100-130g of carbs pretty quickly so i could eliminate the cramping. I might just have to scale it a bit more. So drop some fat and add carbs back slowly until i hit a comfortable point.


    Background: About a decade ago i went from 220 down to 173-175 through diet, MyFitnessPal and TKD & jujitsu. After i moved, i then transition to the P90X series and then BodyBeast. About 4 years ago, I transitioned to serious lifting and started to follow structured programs. I had some good 1RM last summer (bench - 250, DL - 350, Squat - 280) but ran into back and shoulder injuries (ironically not from lifting but rather my daughter being crazy and kept jumping on me or in my arms). Still not 100% but making progress.

    Weight has fluctuated between 168 and 182. Usually high after the winter holidays and my last Keto run is when i hit 168. My low on a high carb diet has been 173. So some anecdotal evidence that my body does better with lower carbs.

    Over the years, i have tried a bunch of diets. Mainly because my wife has been through hell medically and it encourages me to learn different cooking techniques. Still trying to help my wife hone in on a diet that works for her medical issues and her ability to comply.

    Diets i have tried: General calorie counting, MFP + high protein + high fiber, IIFYM, Paleo, IF (16:8), Keto, low fat, and Keto.

    The reason i went Keto was because after years of on and off calorie counting, i just couldn't comply with IIFYM. I needed something that had restriction because a little treats turned into more. If it wasn't for the cramping, I would have stayed Keto. Overall, i enjoyed the foods and it satiated me... Well unless i was doing dirty Keto. So a focus on whole food Keto was ideal.

    I love to cook and often make gourmet meals. So that isn't an issue.

    Thanks for the update!

    Sleep is tough for me too with two kids still pretty young and I'm at work pretty much the same hour as you.

    It took me a while to set up a routine that got me working out well before bedtime (mostly midday sessions, some 4:15/30pm ones) but I found that to be really helpful.

    I would overweight importance of trying to get more sleep if you can, over the carb difference. Not that the latter won't help but that the former can negate pretty much a large part of the fat loss effect of cal deficits+RT. And then some!

    Two week experiment?


    Thanks. I'll try to get more sleep to see if that can help. I certainly recognize the impact on cortisol with lack of sleep.

    From a nutrition point, I think increasing protein to 1.2g/lb (~200g) and reducing my fats (~50-70g) is probably going to be my plan.

    Hopefully you find something that works.

    Oh sleep, what is that again? :D

    Right now I feel like my training sucks, sleep sucks, diet sucks. Can you actually imagine if I had all those things in most optimal order, what my physique would look like. Oh well, we can only do what we can.

    Right!!! Maybe when my kids are much older 😂. But 2 and 4 is rough!!! I feel like i need to start drinking coffee.
  • sardelsasardelsa Member, Premium Posts: 9,827 Member Member, Premium Posts: 9,827 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    sardelsa wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    So it sucks trying to get lean. Dropped a few pounds while adding carbs back (100-130g) but holy *kitten*, has my hunger returned like no other.

    Its a crappy predicament, keto suppressed my appetite but I couldn't get passed the frequent cramping. It got me leaner than i ever have been since middle school. Carbs help my performance, get rid of my cramps but increases hunger which makes it difficult to stay in a deficit.

    Struggling to decide how i can attack this. Any ideas or personal experiences? I have unintentionally recomped over the past 2 years but no where as lean as I want.

    I hear you, it's not easy cuttings cals

    Fairly new to this thread so I don't know exactly when you started however it could just be a factor of giving it a bit more time. The body is immensely adaptable but maybe the transition from low(keto to mod carbs was too fast?

    My current cut, I slowly tapered my carbs and fats reducing them in the order of 10's of grams. It's a mental hack has that worked for me (vs the standard 500 cals or what have you) and is still working about 2 weeks in.

    You make a fair point. I went from 30-50g up to 100-130g of carbs pretty quickly so i could eliminate the cramping. I might just have to scale it a bit more. So drop some fat and add carbs back slowly until i hit a comfortable point.


    Background: About a decade ago i went from 220 down to 173-175 through diet, MyFitnessPal and TKD & jujitsu. After i moved, i then transition to the P90X series and then BodyBeast. About 4 years ago, I transitioned to serious lifting and started to follow structured programs. I had some good 1RM last summer (bench - 250, DL - 350, Squat - 280) but ran into back and shoulder injuries (ironically not from lifting but rather my daughter being crazy and kept jumping on me or in my arms). Still not 100% but making progress.

    Weight has fluctuated between 168 and 182. Usually high after the winter holidays and my last Keto run is when i hit 168. My low on a high carb diet has been 173. So some anecdotal evidence that my body does better with lower carbs.

    Over the years, i have tried a bunch of diets. Mainly because my wife has been through hell medically and it encourages me to learn different cooking techniques. Still trying to help my wife hone in on a diet that works for her medical issues and her ability to comply.

    Diets i have tried: General calorie counting, MFP + high protein + high fiber, IIFYM, Paleo, IF (16:8), Keto, low fat, and Keto.

    The reason i went Keto was because after years of on and off calorie counting, i just couldn't comply with IIFYM. I needed something that had restriction because a little treats turned into more. If it wasn't for the cramping, I would have stayed Keto. Overall, i enjoyed the foods and it satiated me... Well unless i was doing dirty Keto. So a focus on whole food Keto was ideal.

    I love to cook and often make gourmet meals. So that isn't an issue.

    Thanks for the update!

    Sleep is tough for me too with two kids still pretty young and I'm at work pretty much the same hour as you.

    It took me a while to set up a routine that got me working out well before bedtime (mostly midday sessions, some 4:15/30pm ones) but I found that to be really helpful.

    I would overweight importance of trying to get more sleep if you can, over the carb difference. Not that the latter won't help but that the former can negate pretty much a large part of the fat loss effect of cal deficits+RT. And then some!

    Two week experiment?


    Thanks. I'll try to get more sleep to see if that can help. I certainly recognize the impact on cortisol with lack of sleep.

    From a nutrition point, I think increasing protein to 1.2g/lb (~200g) and reducing my fats (~50-70g) is probably going to be my plan.

    Hopefully you find something that works.

    Oh sleep, what is that again? :D

    Right now I feel like my training sucks, sleep sucks, diet sucks. Can you actually imagine if I had all those things in most optimal order, what my physique would look like. Oh well, we can only do what we can.

    Right!!! Maybe when my kids are much older 😂. But 2 and 4 is rough!!! I feel like i need to start drinking coffee.

    What you don't drink coffee??? Does.Not.Compute. :D

    Coffee gets me through all my tough days after a rough night, it's my preworkout and appetite suppressant, best stuff ever. I owe it all to coffee :)
  • happysquatterhappysquatter Member, Premium Posts: 91 Member Member, Premium Posts: 91 Member
    sardelsa wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    sardelsa wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    So it sucks trying to get lean. Dropped a few pounds while adding carbs back (100-130g) but holy *kitten*, has my hunger returned like no other.

    Its a crappy predicament, keto suppressed my appetite but I couldn't get passed the frequent cramping. It got me leaner than i ever have been since middle school. Carbs help my performance, get rid of my cramps but increases hunger which makes it difficult to stay in a deficit.

    Struggling to decide how i can attack this. Any ideas or personal experiences? I have unintentionally recomped over the past 2 years but no where as lean as I want.

    I hear you, it's not easy cuttings cals

    Fairly new to this thread so I don't know exactly when you started however it could just be a factor of giving it a bit more time. The body is immensely adaptable but maybe the transition from low(keto to mod carbs was too fast?

    My current cut, I slowly tapered my carbs and fats reducing them in the order of 10's of grams. It's a mental hack has that worked for me (vs the standard 500 cals or what have you) and is still working about 2 weeks in.

    You make a fair point. I went from 30-50g up to 100-130g of carbs pretty quickly so i could eliminate the cramping. I might just have to scale it a bit more. So drop some fat and add carbs back slowly until i hit a comfortable point.


    Background: About a decade ago i went from 220 down to 173-175 through diet, MyFitnessPal and TKD & jujitsu. After i moved, i then transition to the P90X series and then BodyBeast. About 4 years ago, I transitioned to serious lifting and started to follow structured programs. I had some good 1RM last summer (bench - 250, DL - 350, Squat - 280) but ran into back and shoulder injuries (ironically not from lifting but rather my daughter being crazy and kept jumping on me or in my arms). Still not 100% but making progress.

    Weight has fluctuated between 168 and 182. Usually high after the winter holidays and my last Keto run is when i hit 168. My low on a high carb diet has been 173. So some anecdotal evidence that my body does better with lower carbs.

    Over the years, i have tried a bunch of diets. Mainly because my wife has been through hell medically and it encourages me to learn different cooking techniques. Still trying to help my wife hone in on a diet that works for her medical issues and her ability to comply.

    Diets i have tried: General calorie counting, MFP + high protein + high fiber, IIFYM, Paleo, IF (16:8), Keto, low fat, and Keto.

    The reason i went Keto was because after years of on and off calorie counting, i just couldn't comply with IIFYM. I needed something that had restriction because a little treats turned into more. If it wasn't for the cramping, I would have stayed Keto. Overall, i enjoyed the foods and it satiated me... Well unless i was doing dirty Keto. So a focus on whole food Keto was ideal.

    I love to cook and often make gourmet meals. So that isn't an issue.

    Thanks for the update!

    Sleep is tough for me too with two kids still pretty young and I'm at work pretty much the same hour as you.

    It took me a while to set up a routine that got me working out well before bedtime (mostly midday sessions, some 4:15/30pm ones) but I found that to be really helpful.

    I would overweight importance of trying to get more sleep if you can, over the carb difference. Not that the latter won't help but that the former can negate pretty much a large part of the fat loss effect of cal deficits+RT. And then some!

    Two week experiment?


    Thanks. I'll try to get more sleep to see if that can help. I certainly recognize the impact on cortisol with lack of sleep.

    From a nutrition point, I think increasing protein to 1.2g/lb (~200g) and reducing my fats (~50-70g) is probably going to be my plan.

    Hopefully you find something that works.

    Oh sleep, what is that again? :D

    Right now I feel like my training sucks, sleep sucks, diet sucks. Can you actually imagine if I had all those things in most optimal order, what my physique would look like. Oh well, we can only do what we can.

    Right!!! Maybe when my kids are much older 😂. But 2 and 4 is rough!!! I feel like i need to start drinking coffee.

    What you don't drink coffee??? Does.Not.Compute. :D

    Coffee gets me through all my tough days after a rough night, it's my preworkout and appetite suppressant, best stuff ever. I owe it all to coffee :)

    😂 Yup, 4 cups a day here too

    @psuLemon I’ve got a 2 and 5 year old - it’s tough !! Get on the caffeine train, make the world go round 🙂
  • cupcakesandproteinshakescupcakesandproteinshakes Member Posts: 811 Member Member Posts: 811 Member
    Caffeine blunts my appetite. I drink gallons of the stuff in the morning.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator
    sardelsa wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    sardelsa wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    So it sucks trying to get lean. Dropped a few pounds while adding carbs back (100-130g) but holy *kitten*, has my hunger returned like no other.

    Its a crappy predicament, keto suppressed my appetite but I couldn't get passed the frequent cramping. It got me leaner than i ever have been since middle school. Carbs help my performance, get rid of my cramps but increases hunger which makes it difficult to stay in a deficit.

    Struggling to decide how i can attack this. Any ideas or personal experiences? I have unintentionally recomped over the past 2 years but no where as lean as I want.

    I hear you, it's not easy cuttings cals

    Fairly new to this thread so I don't know exactly when you started however it could just be a factor of giving it a bit more time. The body is immensely adaptable but maybe the transition from low(keto to mod carbs was too fast?

    My current cut, I slowly tapered my carbs and fats reducing them in the order of 10's of grams. It's a mental hack has that worked for me (vs the standard 500 cals or what have you) and is still working about 2 weeks in.

    You make a fair point. I went from 30-50g up to 100-130g of carbs pretty quickly so i could eliminate the cramping. I might just have to scale it a bit more. So drop some fat and add carbs back slowly until i hit a comfortable point.


    Background: About a decade ago i went from 220 down to 173-175 through diet, MyFitnessPal and TKD & jujitsu. After i moved, i then transition to the P90X series and then BodyBeast. About 4 years ago, I transitioned to serious lifting and started to follow structured programs. I had some good 1RM last summer (bench - 250, DL - 350, Squat - 280) but ran into back and shoulder injuries (ironically not from lifting but rather my daughter being crazy and kept jumping on me or in my arms). Still not 100% but making progress.

    Weight has fluctuated between 168 and 182. Usually high after the winter holidays and my last Keto run is when i hit 168. My low on a high carb diet has been 173. So some anecdotal evidence that my body does better with lower carbs.

    Over the years, i have tried a bunch of diets. Mainly because my wife has been through hell medically and it encourages me to learn different cooking techniques. Still trying to help my wife hone in on a diet that works for her medical issues and her ability to comply.

    Diets i have tried: General calorie counting, MFP + high protein + high fiber, IIFYM, Paleo, IF (16:8), Keto, low fat, and Keto.

    The reason i went Keto was because after years of on and off calorie counting, i just couldn't comply with IIFYM. I needed something that had restriction because a little treats turned into more. If it wasn't for the cramping, I would have stayed Keto. Overall, i enjoyed the foods and it satiated me... Well unless i was doing dirty Keto. So a focus on whole food Keto was ideal.

    I love to cook and often make gourmet meals. So that isn't an issue.

    Thanks for the update!

    Sleep is tough for me too with two kids still pretty young and I'm at work pretty much the same hour as you.

    It took me a while to set up a routine that got me working out well before bedtime (mostly midday sessions, some 4:15/30pm ones) but I found that to be really helpful.

    I would overweight importance of trying to get more sleep if you can, over the carb difference. Not that the latter won't help but that the former can negate pretty much a large part of the fat loss effect of cal deficits+RT. And then some!

    Two week experiment?


    Thanks. I'll try to get more sleep to see if that can help. I certainly recognize the impact on cortisol with lack of sleep.

    From a nutrition point, I think increasing protein to 1.2g/lb (~200g) and reducing my fats (~50-70g) is probably going to be my plan.

    Hopefully you find something that works.

    Oh sleep, what is that again? :D

    Right now I feel like my training sucks, sleep sucks, diet sucks. Can you actually imagine if I had all those things in most optimal order, what my physique would look like. Oh well, we can only do what we can.

    Right!!! Maybe when my kids are much older 😂. But 2 and 4 is rough!!! I feel like i need to start drinking coffee.

    What you don't drink coffee??? Does.Not.Compute. :D

    Coffee gets me through all my tough days after a rough night, it's my preworkout and appetite suppressant, best stuff ever. I owe it all to coffee :)

    😂 Yup, 4 cups a day here too

    @psuLemon I’ve got a 2 and 5 year old - it’s tough !! Get on the caffeine train, make the world go round 🙂

    Oh I drink caffeine (diet soda and tea). The issue i have with coffee is taste and i need a lot of sweetener and cream to enjoy it. Its hard to suck up 400 calories in coffee lol
  • MelodiousMermaidMelodiousMermaid Member Posts: 276 Member Member Posts: 276 Member
    @psuLemon : I'm struggling too with keto -> carb. The carbs really do make things happen and allow for better recovery, but juggling the two is an art I have yet to refine. I am still thinking I'll doing leangains-ish in the end, but for cutting it's been a struggle to make it work so far.



    My intake has been mostly garbage the last few weeks while dealing with a family emergency situation and drama. I'm really struggling to get back into the swing of things. Thinking about trying LM's UD 2.0 14-day variant (full program -- nutrition and training). Currently my hormones should be as reset as possible, diet-wise, but due to being female, I think I need to start my 14-days on a Wednesday, and the 18th would probably be best for timing. I really, really don't want to spin my wheels trying to maintain until then though. Yeah, I know, it's "only" 11 days...

    Any thoughts on whether an eRFL (4 day barebones variant of LM's RFL) followed by a carb load/maintenance streak of 5 days before starting UD2 would be shooting myself in the foot? I think, so long as it wouldn't really mess with things hormonally, it'd probably be a decent way of setting the stage and getting my head back in the game. I just want to start the UD2 cycle on the best foot possible, so to speak.

    FWIW/about me, I'm 5' 1" and have been a piecemeal hit-and-miss lifter over the years (a lot more miss). Finally got semi-serious about it last year. I'm very far outside what LM would recommend for using UD2, but am searching for a program that allows me to continue training while allowing for a cut (regular adherence).

    Adherence is a huge thing for me, and similarly to psuLemon, I found keto/low carb to be a lot easier regarding adherence, but it doesn't work for making headway in strength training. I have tried other WOE with no success in adherence, excepting spotty adherence to carb/calorie cycling (leangains model), but that generally only works for me for deficits some of the time (luteal phase is a beast). I think that has a good chance of working for recomp/maintenance, but that's not where I'm at now.

    Hydration tends not to be an issue. Sleep is a struggle for me medically, but generally speaking we're getting things relatively ironed out with it. Not much to do to improve it, anyway, so may as well get used to it and move on. Mental health is an enormous struggle for me, but is/will remain a part of my life, so I need to figure out how to keep going through it at least enough to reach decent health/fitness markers.

    My long-term training goals are best described as "little woman lifts big heavy things," and unless I get to what I feel is a maintenance BF% and decide otherwise, not terribly concerned about aesthetics outside of avoiding a bunch of hypertrophy. I'm still likely in the newbie category for gains, as I've now just started my 6th month of training.

    My short-term training goals are "increase fitness, don't lose the muscle/strength." Outside of lifting, I mostly do LISS (slowish walking), but dabble in faster walking (3x/week), 1,000 meter indoor rowing (3x/week), occasional water aerobics (not regularly at this point), and just finished W3D3 of C25k (doing it for a jogging speed of 4.5 mph currently). Thinking about doing a foundational yoga class 1x/week.

    So between all of the different aspects, it seems like UD2 would be a good fit to try. The kcal aspect would be 1,200 days 1-10, with 1,850, 2,770, 2,070, and 2,015 for the remaining days. 20,705 intake for the 2-week cycle, and my estimated 14-day TDEE should be around 31,346 at my current weight.
  • Mr_Healthy_HabitsMr_Healthy_Habits Member Posts: 12,130 Member Member Posts: 12,130 Member
    Bang energy drinks have become my least healthy habit... But I mean, it's not like I have a problem or anything...

    I mean, I could just stop drinking them anytime if I wanted to 😬...

    My son is 8 and my daughter is 17 months... It's either that or I'm dead on the couch by 6pm every day and they start to question what I'm even for 🤷🏽‍♂️😂
  • watts6151watts6151 Member, Premium Posts: 803 Member Member, Premium Posts: 803 Member
    Bang energy drinks have become my least healthy habit... But I mean, it's not like I have a problem or anything...

    I mean, I could just stop drinking them anytime if I wanted to 😬...

    My son is 8 and my daughter is 17 months... It's either that or I'm dead on the couch by 6pm every day and they start to question what I'm even for 🤷🏽‍♂️😂


    Started with just coffee, then added in monster then moved onto cans of Mr Hyde at 350mg per can, you can see the spiral

    At the moment, trying to run my own business, 7 year old twin girls having full meltdowns over nothing and in prep for a show, wake up and IV the caffeine drip 😁
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator
    @psuLemon : I'm struggling too with keto -> carb. The carbs really do make things happen and allow for better recovery, but juggling the two is an art I have yet to refine. I am still thinking I'll doing leangains-ish in the end, but for cutting it's been a struggle to make it work so far.



    My intake has been mostly garbage the last few weeks while dealing with a family emergency situation and drama. I'm really struggling to get back into the swing of things. Thinking about trying LM's UD 2.0 14-day variant (full program -- nutrition and training). Currently my hormones should be as reset as possible, diet-wise, but due to being female, I think I need to start my 14-days on a Wednesday, and the 18th would probably be best for timing. I really, really don't want to spin my wheels trying to maintain until then though. Yeah, I know, it's "only" 11 days...

    Any thoughts on whether an eRFL (4 day barebones variant of LM's RFL) followed by a carb load/maintenance streak of 5 days before starting UD2 would be shooting myself in the foot? I think, so long as it wouldn't really mess with things hormonally, it'd probably be a decent way of setting the stage and getting my head back in the game. I just want to start the UD2 cycle on the best foot possible, so to speak.

    FWIW/about me, I'm 5' 1" and have been a piecemeal hit-and-miss lifter over the years (a lot more miss). Finally got semi-serious about it last year. I'm very far outside what LM would recommend for using UD2, but am searching for a program that allows me to continue training while allowing for a cut (regular adherence).

    Adherence is a huge thing for me, and similarly to psuLemon, I found keto/low carb to be a lot easier regarding adherence, but it doesn't work for making headway in strength training. I have tried other WOE with no success in adherence, excepting spotty adherence to carb/calorie cycling (leangains model), but that generally only works for me for deficits some of the time (luteal phase is a beast). I think that has a good chance of working for recomp/maintenance, but that's not where I'm at now.

    Hydration tends not to be an issue. Sleep is a struggle for me medically, but generally speaking we're getting things relatively ironed out with it. Not much to do to improve it, anyway, so may as well get used to it and move on. Mental health is an enormous struggle for me, but is/will remain a part of my life, so I need to figure out how to keep going through it at least enough to reach decent health/fitness markers.

    My long-term training goals are best described as "little woman lifts big heavy things," and unless I get to what I feel is a maintenance BF% and decide otherwise, not terribly concerned about aesthetics outside of avoiding a bunch of hypertrophy. I'm still likely in the newbie category for gains, as I've now just started my 6th month of training.

    My short-term training goals are "increase fitness, don't lose the muscle/strength." Outside of lifting, I mostly do LISS (slowish walking), but dabble in faster walking (3x/week), 1,000 meter indoor rowing (3x/week), occasional water aerobics (not regularly at this point), and just finished W3D3 of C25k (doing it for a jogging speed of 4.5 mph currently). Thinking about doing a foundational yoga class 1x/week.

    So between all of the different aspects, it seems like UD2 would be a good fit to try. The kcal aspect would be 1,200 days 1-10, with 1,850, 2,770, 2,070, and 2,015 for the remaining days. 20,705 intake for the 2-week cycle, and my estimated 14-day TDEE should be around 31,346 at my current weight.

    UD2 is a good option is you are ok with the approach. I rather enjoyed it. I feel i would probably do much better at it now than when i first did it since i am a lot more experienced with Keto. On the low calorie days, i felt better with little to no carbs.

    I would asked, since Keto was a good diet for you, have you considered TKD? You could have a standard keto diet and time 30g of carbs pre-workout. It seems to boost performance for a lot of people and doesn't effect ketosis for many. Its something i was considering.

    You won't really gain too much muscle, so i wouldn't over stress "too much" hypertrophy. But if anything, follow a PHUL type workout.
  • MelodiousMermaidMelodiousMermaid Member Posts: 276 Member Member Posts: 276 Member
    @psuLemon I did try TKD with 30 grams pre-workout and also added 30 grams during workout. It did help, though not as much for recovery after the workout, and I was still finding myself "run over" before the end of the workout (to the point where I could tell I could have gotten more out of the workout if I was fueled differently). Going to carb/calorie cycling also aided in muscle retention for the cut, if my InBody scans are to be believed (and I'm aware of the caveats and have minimized potential differences from scan to scan). Of course, my overall losses since switching have been much slower due to adherence issues, so that could also be part of it.

    I might look into PHUL or other programming once I move on from this cutting phase, as I'll need to figure out something. However, for now, I figure I'll go with what LM suggests to augment success with the UD program. The depletion workouts sound brutal, but I figure it is worth a solid go.

    I have hormonal issues of some variety/ies, so regarding hypertrophy, I'm a bit leery. Haven't gotten everything diagnosed at this point. I suppose it's easy enough to lose muscle later though if I wish to. It would be neat to try competing at powerlifting someday either way, so best be at it.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 37,163 MFP Moderator
    @psuLemon I did try TKD with 30 grams pre-workout and also added 30 grams during workout. It did help, though not as much for recovery after the workout, and I was still finding myself "run over" before the end of the workout (to the point where I could tell I could have gotten more out of the workout if I was fueled differently). Going to carb/calorie cycling also aided in muscle retention for the cut, if my InBody scans are to be believed (and I'm aware of the caveats and have minimized potential differences from scan to scan). Of course, my overall losses since switching have been much slower due to adherence issues, so that could also be part of it.

    I might look into PHUL or other programming once I move on from this cutting phase, as I'll need to figure out something. However, for now, I figure I'll go with what LM suggests to augment success with the UD program. The depletion workouts sound brutal, but I figure it is worth a solid go.

    I have hormonal issues of some variety/ies, so regarding hypertrophy, I'm a bit leery. Haven't gotten everything diagnosed at this point. I suppose it's easy enough to lose muscle later though if I wish to. It would be neat to try competing at powerlifting someday either way, so best be at it.

    Lyle's program was pretty brutal when I was running UD2. In some ways, it's was tough on my because I don't do super well with very high volume. Much better responder for low to moderate rep ranges with high to moderate loads. I get much better load management from that style.

    From a hormonal perspective, that is certainly an issue. Not sure you want to get into it here, but do you think there are other diets that could be beneficial for your condition as well as your training?

    Over the past few days, I have tapered my carbs back down to net 50g, increase protein to 1-1.2g/lb and reduced fats below 100g. Calories have dropped again from 2300 to 1750-1800 naturally. I think going above typical keto levels, but aiming for 30g of fiber is helping. Not sure if I will end up in ketosis, but actually never cared bout that since I was just looking for appetite suppression. So the suggestion about slowly increasing my carbs just may be good.


    Side note, even with all the higher carb/higher calorie days, I ended up 170.4 this morning and it has been trending down the past few days. Maybe my calorie/carb "refeed" helped things out a bit. My high a week ago was 175 (after my friends 40th bday party, so you know, lol). By, I hit the gym hard today... 30 minutes of shoulders/back (this is more for physical therapy purposes) and did Les Mills 30 minute sprint (cycling) and I *kitten* killed it.

    Maybe my complaining jumped the gun a bit. We will see how this plays out.
  • quiksylver296quiksylver296 Member, Premium Posts: 27,892 Member Member, Premium Posts: 27,892 Member
    All of you make me so glad that my kid is almost 16! :laugh:

    Still rebelling a bit against the lower calories. I'm still up around 2200 calories five days, 2600 two days. I'm not hangry, just emotionally upset (which feels completely stupid to say) that I can't fit in all the things I could before. Very slight weight drop, 203.8, which is as it should be as I'm just under maintenance with this calorie goal.
  • cupcakesandproteinshakescupcakesandproteinshakes Member Posts: 811 Member Member Posts: 811 Member
    All of you make me so glad that my kid is almost 16! :laugh:

    Still rebelling a bit against the lower calories. I'm still up around 2200 calories five days, 2600 two days. I'm not hangry, just emotionally upset (which feels completely stupid to say) that I can't fit in all the things I could before. Very slight weight drop, 203.8, which is as it should be as I'm just under maintenance with this calorie goal.

    I can relate. Dieting sucks. Even though it’s time limited. I wish there was a trick that worked for me. IF, low carb high carb calorie cycling, keto, as far as I can see they all suck to a degree. Being in a deficit just sucks.
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