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Has Paleo had its day?
Replies
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amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »@tennisdude2004 Don't take the woo's personally. You can't.
I did a paleo/primal/keto/IF combo/BPC. I ate all of the fat, fat, fat. Fat is where it's at. I ate 85% fat and 10% protein and 5% carbs in the form of a frozen spinach ball and ball of wax.
When you come off the keto high, do you really believe you can eat 85% for the rest of your life to maintain what you are doing now. Can I get a witness, when you come off this protocol your body will stack the weight back on like pancakes and taking it off again will be as slow as molasses. Unless you throw yourself into another cycle of keto for giant month hunks of time but with each keto excursion the heart grows faint.
You wake up one day and realize that this cannot go on forever. There are some people here that have garnered respect from everybody. They are not playing games but genuinely want to get the truth out there. Keto is a temporary fix. Start thinking about a strategy that will help keep the positive side effects you like now with your weight and muscle mass.
So much of paleo is absolute malarkey. During the long winter months, the tribes on the plains, northern Canada and elsewhere lived with about 9 months of snow. Lakes and rivers were frozen. There was no fishing going on and hunting for wildgame during blizzards and -40 below temps were a real hardship. Bulletproof coffee and coconut oil for the big WIN...we haven't got the time.
No one owns the term and word paleo. The truth has not been told what those people went through to survive. Keto is temporary. I know a woman who did it for over a year. Wrote up her big success story and then went on a trip to Europe. She ate her way through several countries and rebounded back with every pound plus friends.
She kept trying to get back UP on that high horse and keto wagon but she lost heart.
Woo's = Boo's. They do. But there are some here who really do have your best interest at heart.
Open. Mind. Insert. Possibilities.
I think both Paleo and The Paleo Diet have both been trademarked
Keto might have been a temporary fix for you but for many it’s a gateway into LCHF and it a permanent diet model for millions.
I personally do not eat in a VLCHF model, but I certainly prefer LCHF to a higher carb diet.
I agree an open mind approach is always best.
See bolded. I would really like to see some empirical scientific evidence to back up this comment.
Better still, I would actually like to hear from more than just one person who has had long term success from following LCHF. I can only think of you and one other poster on here that are huge advocates but nobody else.
Thank you @Mari22na for sharing your keto experience and subsequent failure to keep the weight off long term.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that all it takes is a CALORIE DEFICIT to lose weight instead of saying only their way of eating is the best.
Irony alert.
This is why you don't see many posts from people experimenting with or who have fully embraced things such as paleo or keto, etc. The vast majority of responding participants aren't interested in genuine discussion and understanding of the OPs situation. They just want to bash it, in most cases because they don't understand it. You're guilty of the same charge you're aiming at others.
I've had long-term success (6+ years of over 60lbs from my heaviest) following what most would categorize as LCHF (not keto, as I don't see the benefit for myself and I eat way too many vegetables). Add that one to your list, since it seems to be a scorecard you're keeping.
Well it sounds like you werent in full blown LCHF mode then if you were eating too many vegetables. Just plain old calorie deficit seems to have done the trick. Well done.
As I knew you probably would, you have perfectly illustrated the issue with your perspective. I made a single, very general statement about my WOE, and you turned that into several assumptions to drive a smug declarative conclusion. No curiosity, no want to understand. You're attempting to take the high road by doing the same thing you're charging keto adherents (of which I am not) of.
Let's review.
I never said anything to indicate that I take issue with the concept of CICO.
I said LCHF, and you have no idea what my intake looks like. Low/high are relative terms, completely dependent on the volume a person eats. My absolute values are going to be higher than 90% of people here due to my size, but my carb intake is still 10%-15% (20% max) on any given day, with fat 50%+. That, my friend, is LCHF no matter how you'd like to slice it.
If you don't have useful input when someone asks for it on a specific eating protocol, why are you speaking? The vast majority of people here have zero experience with or have researched (past reading U.S. News and World Report) different ways of eating. Instead of being dogmatic that nothing aside from moderation and chanting CICO in a dark room will get results, just move along and discuss with those who are similarly inclined. You're in as much of an echo chamber as you think others are.
Ultimately a calorie deficit is how you have achieved weight loss, we are in agreeance with that. Its hard for me to understand why its necessary to have to lower your carb intake so drastically though when in theory its not really necessary. You can still enjoy a moderate carb intake. It would be a miserable angry existence for me to maintain a LCHF regime, but each to their own and kudos to you for being able to keep that up for so long.
Moderate to high carbs are technically unnecessary.
Not everyone has the lack of ability to reduce their carb intake as you do by the sounds of it.
It would probably be best to not judge everybody by your own dietary tastes.
Low to very low carbs are technically unnecessary too.
All that's necessary for weight/fat loss is a calorie deficit. By whatever means it is created/maintained.
Agreed, but as meta analysis proves both low carb and moderate to high carb are optimal.
So why would anyone advice a person against doing either?
You advise someone against low carb (or any level of carbs for that matter) when it's arbitrarily chosen because they heard "it works" or got suckered or scared into it. The best advice for a starting dieter is to just start eating at a deficit and adjust their macros based on their experience and preferences. MFP macro levels are fine as a starting point because they're closer to how many people eat than any macro extremes. Even then, people are also told these macros are not set in stone and that as long as they get their minimum protein and fat they can fill the rest with whatever they want. Extra steps are unnecessary until they are. The advice is not against low carb, but against lack of flexibility and arbitrary rules that lack personalization.
It works for millions of people and is as healthy as IIFYM / Calorie Counting.
Who are you to assume it will not work for them? I would suggest they they are trying LCHF because they've maybe tried your way of doing things and like millions of others, have found it unsustainable - different horses for different course.
Why not just focus on giving the OP the tools and information to help them make their diet a success. I'm sure if its not for them they will work it out for themselves, but they have a right to give it a good try without being scupper before they begin.
I'm really not sure how you read posts. Where in my post did you see me assuming their preference? What I'm basically advocating is that they explore their preferences and situation. If they tried something and it didn't work, then that's exactly the process I'm advocating: to explore what things aren't working for them and how they could adapt them. They may as well arrive at an extra low or extra high level of carbs as their preferred level, but it would be due to their own preference, not because they were told to do it. There is a big difference there. Sustainability comes from personalization, and learning to make personalized decisions early is setting them up for success. That's why most threads start with replies that ask questions without making assumptions: what is your reason for choosing this way of eating?
QFT2 -
johnslater461 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »@tennisdude2004 Don't take the woo's personally. You can't.
I did a paleo/primal/keto/IF combo/BPC. I ate all of the fat, fat, fat. Fat is where it's at. I ate 85% fat and 10% protein and 5% carbs in the form of a frozen spinach ball and ball of wax.
When you come off the keto high, do you really believe you can eat 85% for the rest of your life to maintain what you are doing now. Can I get a witness, when you come off this protocol your body will stack the weight back on like pancakes and taking it off again will be as slow as molasses. Unless you throw yourself into another cycle of keto for giant month hunks of time but with each keto excursion the heart grows faint.
You wake up one day and realize that this cannot go on forever. There are some people here that have garnered respect from everybody. They are not playing games but genuinely want to get the truth out there. Keto is a temporary fix. Start thinking about a strategy that will help keep the positive side effects you like now with your weight and muscle mass.
So much of paleo is absolute malarkey. During the long winter months, the tribes on the plains, northern Canada and elsewhere lived with about 9 months of snow. Lakes and rivers were frozen. There was no fishing going on and hunting for wildgame during blizzards and -40 below temps were a real hardship. Bulletproof coffee and coconut oil for the big WIN...we haven't got the time.
No one owns the term and word paleo. The truth has not been told what those people went through to survive. Keto is temporary. I know a woman who did it for over a year. Wrote up her big success story and then went on a trip to Europe. She ate her way through several countries and rebounded back with every pound plus friends.
She kept trying to get back UP on that high horse and keto wagon but she lost heart.
Woo's = Boo's. They do. But there are some here who really do have your best interest at heart.
Open. Mind. Insert. Possibilities.
I think both Paleo and The Paleo Diet have both been trademarked
Keto might have been a temporary fix for you but for many it’s a gateway into LCHF and it a permanent diet model for millions.
I personally do not eat in a VLCHF model, but I certainly prefer LCHF to a higher carb diet.
I agree an open mind approach is always best.
See bolded. I would really like to see some empirical scientific evidence to back up this comment.
Better still, I would actually like to hear from more than just one person who has had long term success from following LCHF. I can only think of you and one other poster on here that are huge advocates but nobody else.
Thank you @Mari22na for sharing your keto experience and subsequent failure to keep the weight off long term.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that all it takes is a CALORIE DEFICIT to lose weight instead of saying only their way of eating is the best.
Irony alert.
This is why you don't see many posts from people experimenting with or who have fully embraced things such as paleo or keto, etc. The vast majority of responding participants aren't interested in genuine discussion and understanding of the OPs situation. They just want to bash it, in most cases because they don't understand it. You're guilty of the same charge you're aiming at others.
I've had long-term success (6+ years of over 60lbs from my heaviest) following what most would categorize as LCHF (not keto, as I don't see the benefit for myself and I eat way too many vegetables). Add that one to your list, since it seems to be a scorecard you're keeping.
Well it sounds like you werent in full blown LCHF mode then if you were eating too many vegetables. Just plain old calorie deficit seems to have done the trick. Well done.
As I knew you probably would, you have perfectly illustrated the issue with your perspective. I made a single, very general statement about my WOE, and you turned that into several assumptions to drive a smug declarative conclusion. No curiosity, no want to understand. You're attempting to take the high road by doing the same thing you're charging keto adherents (of which I am not) of.
Let's review.
I never said anything to indicate that I take issue with the concept of CICO.
I said LCHF, and you have no idea what my intake looks like. Low/high are relative terms, completely dependent on the volume a person eats. My absolute values are going to be higher than 90% of people here due to my size, but my carb intake is still 10%-15% (20% max) on any given day, with fat 50%+. That, my friend, is LCHF no matter how you'd like to slice it.
If you don't have useful input when someone asks for it on a specific eating protocol, why are you speaking? The vast majority of people here have zero experience with or have researched (past reading U.S. News and World Report) different ways of eating. Instead of being dogmatic that nothing aside from moderation and chanting CICO in a dark room will get results, just move along and discuss with those who are similarly inclined. You're in as much of an echo chamber as you think others are.
Ultimately a calorie deficit is how you have achieved weight loss, we are in agreeance with that. Its hard for me to understand why its necessary to have to lower your carb intake so drastically though when in theory its not really necessary. You can still enjoy a moderate carb intake. It would be a miserable angry existence for me to maintain a LCHF regime, but each to their own and kudos to you for being able to keep that up for so long.
Moderate to high carbs are technically unnecessary.
Not everyone has the lack of ability to reduce their carb intake as you do by the sounds of it.
It would probably be best to not judge everybody by your own dietary tastes.
Low to very low carbs are technically unnecessary too.
All that's necessary for weight/fat loss is a calorie deficit. By whatever means it is created/maintained.
Agreed, but as meta analysis proves both low carb and moderate to high carb are optimal.
So why would anyone advice a person against doing either?
You advise someone against low carb (or any level of carbs for that matter) when it's arbitrarily chosen because they heard "it works" or got suckered or scared into it. The best advice for a starting dieter is to just start eating at a deficit and adjust their macros based on their experience and preferences. MFP macro levels are fine as a starting point because they're closer to how many people eat than any macro extremes. Even then, people are also told these macros are not set in stone and that as long as they get their minimum protein and fat they can fill the rest with whatever they want. Extra steps are unnecessary until they are. The advice is not against low carb, but against lack of flexibility and arbitrary rules that lack personalization.
It works for millions of people and is as healthy as IIFYM / Calorie Counting.
Who are you to assume it will not work for them? I would suggest they they are trying LCHF because they've maybe tried your way of doing things and like millions of others, have found it unsustainable - different horses for different course.
Why not just focus on giving the OP the tools and information to help them make their diet a success. I'm sure if its not for them they will work it out for themselves, but they have a right to give it a good try without being scupper before they begin.
I'm really not sure how you read posts. Where in my post did you see me assuming their preference? What I'm basically advocating is that they explore their preferences and situation. If they tried something and it didn't work, then that's exactly the process I'm advocating: to explore what things aren't working for them and how they could adapt them. They may as well arrive at an extra low or extra high level of carbs as their preferred level, but it would be due to their own preference, not because they were told to do it. There is a big difference there. Sustainability comes from personalization, and learning to make personalized decisions early is setting them up for success. That's why most threads start with replies that ask questions without making assumptions: what is your reason for choosing this way of eating?
And if a thread starts with something like "I want to do keto, but it's so hard not being able to have rice or bread", threads in which Tennisdude was in as well, so he should be aware of them, it is completely logical to ask them why the hell they'd try a way of eating that's not enjoyable for them.
But somehow it's only okay to try and get people to do keto, never to tell them it's okay to eat a different way if that's not their cup of tea.
Thank you for your very selective example.
The OP on this thread isn't suggesting they are struggling with KETO, merely asking for tips.....why then is the very first response asking if keto is the right choice?
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10676788/keto#latest
First one I opened in the Getting Started forum.
Because that is the first question you should ask when embarking on ANY plan, especially on those that restrict entire food groups.
I've seen the same question asked when people embark on vegetarian or vegan diets, and it's the right question to ask there as well.
Funny I don't see you white knighting in those threads.
I don’t have any long term experience eating vegetarian or vegan, so it would be very arrogant of me to comment or question those choices.
10 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »@tennisdude2004 Don't take the woo's personally. You can't.
I did a paleo/primal/keto/IF combo/BPC. I ate all of the fat, fat, fat. Fat is where it's at. I ate 85% fat and 10% protein and 5% carbs in the form of a frozen spinach ball and ball of wax.
When you come off the keto high, do you really believe you can eat 85% for the rest of your life to maintain what you are doing now. Can I get a witness, when you come off this protocol your body will stack the weight back on like pancakes and taking it off again will be as slow as molasses. Unless you throw yourself into another cycle of keto for giant month hunks of time but with each keto excursion the heart grows faint.
You wake up one day and realize that this cannot go on forever. There are some people here that have garnered respect from everybody. They are not playing games but genuinely want to get the truth out there. Keto is a temporary fix. Start thinking about a strategy that will help keep the positive side effects you like now with your weight and muscle mass.
So much of paleo is absolute malarkey. During the long winter months, the tribes on the plains, northern Canada and elsewhere lived with about 9 months of snow. Lakes and rivers were frozen. There was no fishing going on and hunting for wildgame during blizzards and -40 below temps were a real hardship. Bulletproof coffee and coconut oil for the big WIN...we haven't got the time.
No one owns the term and word paleo. The truth has not been told what those people went through to survive. Keto is temporary. I know a woman who did it for over a year. Wrote up her big success story and then went on a trip to Europe. She ate her way through several countries and rebounded back with every pound plus friends.
She kept trying to get back UP on that high horse and keto wagon but she lost heart.
Woo's = Boo's. They do. But there are some here who really do have your best interest at heart.
Open. Mind. Insert. Possibilities.
I think both Paleo and The Paleo Diet have both been trademarked
Keto might have been a temporary fix for you but for many it’s a gateway into LCHF and it a permanent diet model for millions.
I personally do not eat in a VLCHF model, but I certainly prefer LCHF to a higher carb diet.
I agree an open mind approach is always best.
See bolded. I would really like to see some empirical scientific evidence to back up this comment.
Better still, I would actually like to hear from more than just one person who has had long term success from following LCHF. I can only think of you and one other poster on here that are huge advocates but nobody else.
Thank you @Mari22na for sharing your keto experience and subsequent failure to keep the weight off long term.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that all it takes is a CALORIE DEFICIT to lose weight instead of saying only their way of eating is the best.
Irony alert.
This is why you don't see many posts from people experimenting with or who have fully embraced things such as paleo or keto, etc. The vast majority of responding participants aren't interested in genuine discussion and understanding of the OPs situation. They just want to bash it, in most cases because they don't understand it. You're guilty of the same charge you're aiming at others.
I've had long-term success (6+ years of over 60lbs from my heaviest) following what most would categorize as LCHF (not keto, as I don't see the benefit for myself and I eat way too many vegetables). Add that one to your list, since it seems to be a scorecard you're keeping.
Well it sounds like you werent in full blown LCHF mode then if you were eating too many vegetables. Just plain old calorie deficit seems to have done the trick. Well done.
As I knew you probably would, you have perfectly illustrated the issue with your perspective. I made a single, very general statement about my WOE, and you turned that into several assumptions to drive a smug declarative conclusion. No curiosity, no want to understand. You're attempting to take the high road by doing the same thing you're charging keto adherents (of which I am not) of.
Let's review.
I never said anything to indicate that I take issue with the concept of CICO.
I said LCHF, and you have no idea what my intake looks like. Low/high are relative terms, completely dependent on the volume a person eats. My absolute values are going to be higher than 90% of people here due to my size, but my carb intake is still 10%-15% (20% max) on any given day, with fat 50%+. That, my friend, is LCHF no matter how you'd like to slice it.
If you don't have useful input when someone asks for it on a specific eating protocol, why are you speaking? The vast majority of people here have zero experience with or have researched (past reading U.S. News and World Report) different ways of eating. Instead of being dogmatic that nothing aside from moderation and chanting CICO in a dark room will get results, just move along and discuss with those who are similarly inclined. You're in as much of an echo chamber as you think others are.
Ultimately a calorie deficit is how you have achieved weight loss, we are in agreeance with that. Its hard for me to understand why its necessary to have to lower your carb intake so drastically though when in theory its not really necessary. You can still enjoy a moderate carb intake. It would be a miserable angry existence for me to maintain a LCHF regime, but each to their own and kudos to you for being able to keep that up for so long.
Moderate to high carbs are technically unnecessary.
Not everyone has the lack of ability to reduce their carb intake as you do by the sounds of it.
It would probably be best to not judge everybody by your own dietary tastes.
Low to very low carbs are technically unnecessary too.
All that's necessary for weight/fat loss is a calorie deficit. By whatever means it is created/maintained.
Agreed, but as meta analysis proves both low carb and moderate to high carb are optimal.
So why would anyone advice a person against doing either?
You advise someone against low carb (or any level of carbs for that matter) when it's arbitrarily chosen because they heard "it works" or got suckered or scared into it. The best advice for a starting dieter is to just start eating at a deficit and adjust their macros based on their experience and preferences. MFP macro levels are fine as a starting point because they're closer to how many people eat than any macro extremes. Even then, people are also told these macros are not set in stone and that as long as they get their minimum protein and fat they can fill the rest with whatever they want. Extra steps are unnecessary until they are. The advice is not against low carb, but against lack of flexibility and arbitrary rules that lack personalization.
It works for millions of people and is as healthy as IIFYM / Calorie Counting.
Who are you to assume it will not work for them? I would suggest they they are trying LCHF because they've maybe tried your way of doing things and like millions of others, have found it unsustainable - different horses for different course.
Why not just focus on giving the OP the tools and information to help them make their diet a success. I'm sure if its not for them they will work it out for themselves, but they have a right to give it a good try without being scupper before they begin.
I'm really not sure how you read posts. Where in my post did you see me assuming their preference? What I'm basically advocating is that they explore their preferences and situation. If they tried something and it didn't work, then that's exactly the process I'm advocating: to explore what things aren't working for them and how they could adapt them. They may as well arrive at an extra low or extra high level of carbs as their preferred level, but it would be due to their own preference, not because they were told to do it. There is a big difference there. Sustainability comes from personalization, and learning to make personalized decisions early is setting them up for success. That's why most threads start with replies that ask questions without making assumptions: what is your reason for choosing this way of eating?
And if a thread starts with something like "I want to do keto, but it's so hard not being able to have rice or bread", threads in which Tennisdude was in as well, so he should be aware of them, it is completely logical to ask them why the hell they'd try a way of eating that's not enjoyable for them.
But somehow it's only okay to try and get people to do keto, never to tell them it's okay to eat a different way if that's not their cup of tea.
Thank you for your very selective example.
The OP on this thread isn't suggesting they are struggling with KETO, merely asking for tips.....why then is the very first response asking if keto is the right choice?
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10676788/keto#latest
First one I opened in the Getting Started forum.
Because that is the first question you should ask when embarking on ANY plan, especially on those that restrict entire food groups.
I've seen the same question asked when people embark on vegetarian or vegan diets, and it's the right question to ask there as well.
Funny I don't see you white knighting in those threads.
I don’t have any long term experience eating vegetarian or vegan, so it would be very arrogant of me to comment or question those choices.
This is a genuine question: if someone posted something like "I'm going vegan because I heard it is the best way to lose weight and be healthy," you would refrain from commenting because you haven't personally been vegan? Would you consider it inappropriate for anyone without experience in veganism to address that misconception?
My POV: I don't think we have to have personal experience in a way of eating to address clear misconceptions. Now if a thread about veganism was full of people just saying they'd never done it and never wanted to do it, I wouldn't necessarily consider that appropriate. But I do think non-vegans can and have expressed *factual* opinions that are worth considering.11 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »@tennisdude2004 Don't take the woo's personally. You can't.
I did a paleo/primal/keto/IF combo/BPC. I ate all of the fat, fat, fat. Fat is where it's at. I ate 85% fat and 10% protein and 5% carbs in the form of a frozen spinach ball and ball of wax.
When you come off the keto high, do you really believe you can eat 85% for the rest of your life to maintain what you are doing now. Can I get a witness, when you come off this protocol your body will stack the weight back on like pancakes and taking it off again will be as slow as molasses. Unless you throw yourself into another cycle of keto for giant month hunks of time but with each keto excursion the heart grows faint.
You wake up one day and realize that this cannot go on forever. There are some people here that have garnered respect from everybody. They are not playing games but genuinely want to get the truth out there. Keto is a temporary fix. Start thinking about a strategy that will help keep the positive side effects you like now with your weight and muscle mass.
So much of paleo is absolute malarkey. During the long winter months, the tribes on the plains, northern Canada and elsewhere lived with about 9 months of snow. Lakes and rivers were frozen. There was no fishing going on and hunting for wildgame during blizzards and -40 below temps were a real hardship. Bulletproof coffee and coconut oil for the big WIN...we haven't got the time.
No one owns the term and word paleo. The truth has not been told what those people went through to survive. Keto is temporary. I know a woman who did it for over a year. Wrote up her big success story and then went on a trip to Europe. She ate her way through several countries and rebounded back with every pound plus friends.
She kept trying to get back UP on that high horse and keto wagon but she lost heart.
Woo's = Boo's. They do. But there are some here who really do have your best interest at heart.
Open. Mind. Insert. Possibilities.
I think both Paleo and The Paleo Diet have both been trademarked
Keto might have been a temporary fix for you but for many it’s a gateway into LCHF and it a permanent diet model for millions.
I personally do not eat in a VLCHF model, but I certainly prefer LCHF to a higher carb diet.
I agree an open mind approach is always best.
See bolded. I would really like to see some empirical scientific evidence to back up this comment.
Better still, I would actually like to hear from more than just one person who has had long term success from following LCHF. I can only think of you and one other poster on here that are huge advocates but nobody else.
Thank you @Mari22na for sharing your keto experience and subsequent failure to keep the weight off long term.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that all it takes is a CALORIE DEFICIT to lose weight instead of saying only their way of eating is the best.
Irony alert.
This is why you don't see many posts from people experimenting with or who have fully embraced things such as paleo or keto, etc. The vast majority of responding participants aren't interested in genuine discussion and understanding of the OPs situation. They just want to bash it, in most cases because they don't understand it. You're guilty of the same charge you're aiming at others.
I've had long-term success (6+ years of over 60lbs from my heaviest) following what most would categorize as LCHF (not keto, as I don't see the benefit for myself and I eat way too many vegetables). Add that one to your list, since it seems to be a scorecard you're keeping.
Well it sounds like you werent in full blown LCHF mode then if you were eating too many vegetables. Just plain old calorie deficit seems to have done the trick. Well done.
As I knew you probably would, you have perfectly illustrated the issue with your perspective. I made a single, very general statement about my WOE, and you turned that into several assumptions to drive a smug declarative conclusion. No curiosity, no want to understand. You're attempting to take the high road by doing the same thing you're charging keto adherents (of which I am not) of.
Let's review.
I never said anything to indicate that I take issue with the concept of CICO.
I said LCHF, and you have no idea what my intake looks like. Low/high are relative terms, completely dependent on the volume a person eats. My absolute values are going to be higher than 90% of people here due to my size, but my carb intake is still 10%-15% (20% max) on any given day, with fat 50%+. That, my friend, is LCHF no matter how you'd like to slice it.
If you don't have useful input when someone asks for it on a specific eating protocol, why are you speaking? The vast majority of people here have zero experience with or have researched (past reading U.S. News and World Report) different ways of eating. Instead of being dogmatic that nothing aside from moderation and chanting CICO in a dark room will get results, just move along and discuss with those who are similarly inclined. You're in as much of an echo chamber as you think others are.
Ultimately a calorie deficit is how you have achieved weight loss, we are in agreeance with that. Its hard for me to understand why its necessary to have to lower your carb intake so drastically though when in theory its not really necessary. You can still enjoy a moderate carb intake. It would be a miserable angry existence for me to maintain a LCHF regime, but each to their own and kudos to you for being able to keep that up for so long.
Moderate to high carbs are technically unnecessary.
Not everyone has the lack of ability to reduce their carb intake as you do by the sounds of it.
It would probably be best to not judge everybody by your own dietary tastes.
Low to very low carbs are technically unnecessary too.
All that's necessary for weight/fat loss is a calorie deficit. By whatever means it is created/maintained.
Agreed, but as meta analysis proves both low carb and moderate to high carb are optimal.
So why would anyone advice a person against doing either?
You advise someone against low carb (or any level of carbs for that matter) when it's arbitrarily chosen because they heard "it works" or got suckered or scared into it. The best advice for a starting dieter is to just start eating at a deficit and adjust their macros based on their experience and preferences. MFP macro levels are fine as a starting point because they're closer to how many people eat than any macro extremes. Even then, people are also told these macros are not set in stone and that as long as they get their minimum protein and fat they can fill the rest with whatever they want. Extra steps are unnecessary until they are. The advice is not against low carb, but against lack of flexibility and arbitrary rules that lack personalization.
It works for millions of people and is as healthy as IIFYM / Calorie Counting.
Who are you to assume it will not work for them? I would suggest they they are trying LCHF because they've maybe tried your way of doing things and like millions of others, have found it unsustainable - different horses for different course.
Why not just focus on giving the OP the tools and information to help them make their diet a success. I'm sure if its not for them they will work it out for themselves, but they have a right to give it a good try without being scupper before they begin.
I'm really not sure how you read posts. Where in my post did you see me assuming their preference? What I'm basically advocating is that they explore their preferences and situation. If they tried something and it didn't work, then that's exactly the process I'm advocating: to explore what things aren't working for them and how they could adapt them. They may as well arrive at an extra low or extra high level of carbs as their preferred level, but it would be due to their own preference, not because they were told to do it. There is a big difference there. Sustainability comes from personalization, and learning to make personalized decisions early is setting them up for success. That's why most threads start with replies that ask questions without making assumptions: what is your reason for choosing this way of eating?
And if a thread starts with something like "I want to do keto, but it's so hard not being able to have rice or bread", threads in which Tennisdude was in as well, so he should be aware of them, it is completely logical to ask them why the hell they'd try a way of eating that's not enjoyable for them.
But somehow it's only okay to try and get people to do keto, never to tell them it's okay to eat a different way if that's not their cup of tea.
Thank you for your very selective example.
The OP on this thread isn't suggesting they are struggling with KETO, merely asking for tips.....why then is the very first response asking if keto is the right choice?
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10676788/keto#latest
First one I opened in the Getting Started forum.
Because that is the first question you should ask when embarking on ANY plan, especially on those that restrict entire food groups.
I've seen the same question asked when people embark on vegetarian or vegan diets, and it's the right question to ask there as well.
Funny I don't see you white knighting in those threads.
I don’t have any long term experience eating vegetarian or vegan, so it would be very arrogant of me to comment or question those choices.
This is a genuine question: if someone posted something like "I'm going vegan because I heard it is the best way to lose weight and be healthy," you would refrain from commenting because you haven't personally been vegan? Would you consider it inappropriate for anyone without experience in veganism to address that misconception?
My POV: I don't think we have to have personal experience in a way of eating to address clear misconceptions. Now if a thread about veganism was full of people just saying they'd never done it and never wanted to do it, I wouldn't necessarily consider that appropriate. But I do think non-vegans can and have expressed *factual* opinions that are worth considering.
No I wouldn’t comment because I do not have any information on vegan to share.
If some asks if it was a ‘great’ way to lose weight and be healthy - and if the answer was yes. Then I certainly wouldn’t go on the thread with the intention of questioning their decision or with the intention of dissuading them - why would anybody want to dissuade someone from finding a healthy solution to losing weight?
Also if it was ‘one of the best’ ways to lose weight and be healthy, again I wouldn’t jump on the thread to promote LCHF / keto as also being one of the other best ways, as they clearly haven’t asked about LCHF.
6 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »@tennisdude2004 Don't take the woo's personally. You can't.
I did a paleo/primal/keto/IF combo/BPC. I ate all of the fat, fat, fat. Fat is where it's at. I ate 85% fat and 10% protein and 5% carbs in the form of a frozen spinach ball and ball of wax.
When you come off the keto high, do you really believe you can eat 85% for the rest of your life to maintain what you are doing now. Can I get a witness, when you come off this protocol your body will stack the weight back on like pancakes and taking it off again will be as slow as molasses. Unless you throw yourself into another cycle of keto for giant month hunks of time but with each keto excursion the heart grows faint.
You wake up one day and realize that this cannot go on forever. There are some people here that have garnered respect from everybody. They are not playing games but genuinely want to get the truth out there. Keto is a temporary fix. Start thinking about a strategy that will help keep the positive side effects you like now with your weight and muscle mass.
So much of paleo is absolute malarkey. During the long winter months, the tribes on the plains, northern Canada and elsewhere lived with about 9 months of snow. Lakes and rivers were frozen. There was no fishing going on and hunting for wildgame during blizzards and -40 below temps were a real hardship. Bulletproof coffee and coconut oil for the big WIN...we haven't got the time.
No one owns the term and word paleo. The truth has not been told what those people went through to survive. Keto is temporary. I know a woman who did it for over a year. Wrote up her big success story and then went on a trip to Europe. She ate her way through several countries and rebounded back with every pound plus friends.
She kept trying to get back UP on that high horse and keto wagon but she lost heart.
Woo's = Boo's. They do. But there are some here who really do have your best interest at heart.
Open. Mind. Insert. Possibilities.
I think both Paleo and The Paleo Diet have both been trademarked
Keto might have been a temporary fix for you but for many it’s a gateway into LCHF and it a permanent diet model for millions.
I personally do not eat in a VLCHF model, but I certainly prefer LCHF to a higher carb diet.
I agree an open mind approach is always best.
See bolded. I would really like to see some empirical scientific evidence to back up this comment.
Better still, I would actually like to hear from more than just one person who has had long term success from following LCHF. I can only think of you and one other poster on here that are huge advocates but nobody else.
Thank you @Mari22na for sharing your keto experience and subsequent failure to keep the weight off long term.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that all it takes is a CALORIE DEFICIT to lose weight instead of saying only their way of eating is the best.
Irony alert.
This is why you don't see many posts from people experimenting with or who have fully embraced things such as paleo or keto, etc. The vast majority of responding participants aren't interested in genuine discussion and understanding of the OPs situation. They just want to bash it, in most cases because they don't understand it. You're guilty of the same charge you're aiming at others.
I've had long-term success (6+ years of over 60lbs from my heaviest) following what most would categorize as LCHF (not keto, as I don't see the benefit for myself and I eat way too many vegetables). Add that one to your list, since it seems to be a scorecard you're keeping.
Well it sounds like you werent in full blown LCHF mode then if you were eating too many vegetables. Just plain old calorie deficit seems to have done the trick. Well done.
As I knew you probably would, you have perfectly illustrated the issue with your perspective. I made a single, very general statement about my WOE, and you turned that into several assumptions to drive a smug declarative conclusion. No curiosity, no want to understand. You're attempting to take the high road by doing the same thing you're charging keto adherents (of which I am not) of.
Let's review.
I never said anything to indicate that I take issue with the concept of CICO.
I said LCHF, and you have no idea what my intake looks like. Low/high are relative terms, completely dependent on the volume a person eats. My absolute values are going to be higher than 90% of people here due to my size, but my carb intake is still 10%-15% (20% max) on any given day, with fat 50%+. That, my friend, is LCHF no matter how you'd like to slice it.
If you don't have useful input when someone asks for it on a specific eating protocol, why are you speaking? The vast majority of people here have zero experience with or have researched (past reading U.S. News and World Report) different ways of eating. Instead of being dogmatic that nothing aside from moderation and chanting CICO in a dark room will get results, just move along and discuss with those who are similarly inclined. You're in as much of an echo chamber as you think others are.
Ultimately a calorie deficit is how you have achieved weight loss, we are in agreeance with that. Its hard for me to understand why its necessary to have to lower your carb intake so drastically though when in theory its not really necessary. You can still enjoy a moderate carb intake. It would be a miserable angry existence for me to maintain a LCHF regime, but each to their own and kudos to you for being able to keep that up for so long.
Moderate to high carbs are technically unnecessary.
Not everyone has the lack of ability to reduce their carb intake as you do by the sounds of it.
It would probably be best to not judge everybody by your own dietary tastes.
Low to very low carbs are technically unnecessary too.
All that's necessary for weight/fat loss is a calorie deficit. By whatever means it is created/maintained.
Agreed, but as meta analysis proves both low carb and moderate to high carb are optimal.
So why would anyone advice a person against doing either?
You advise someone against low carb (or any level of carbs for that matter) when it's arbitrarily chosen because they heard "it works" or got suckered or scared into it. The best advice for a starting dieter is to just start eating at a deficit and adjust their macros based on their experience and preferences. MFP macro levels are fine as a starting point because they're closer to how many people eat than any macro extremes. Even then, people are also told these macros are not set in stone and that as long as they get their minimum protein and fat they can fill the rest with whatever they want. Extra steps are unnecessary until they are. The advice is not against low carb, but against lack of flexibility and arbitrary rules that lack personalization.
It works for millions of people and is as healthy as IIFYM / Calorie Counting.
Who are you to assume it will not work for them? I would suggest they they are trying LCHF because they've maybe tried your way of doing things and like millions of others, have found it unsustainable - different horses for different course.
Why not just focus on giving the OP the tools and information to help them make their diet a success. I'm sure if its not for them they will work it out for themselves, but they have a right to give it a good try without being scupper before they begin.
I'm really not sure how you read posts. Where in my post did you see me assuming their preference? What I'm basically advocating is that they explore their preferences and situation. If they tried something and it didn't work, then that's exactly the process I'm advocating: to explore what things aren't working for them and how they could adapt them. They may as well arrive at an extra low or extra high level of carbs as their preferred level, but it would be due to their own preference, not because they were told to do it. There is a big difference there. Sustainability comes from personalization, and learning to make personalized decisions early is setting them up for success. That's why most threads start with replies that ask questions without making assumptions: what is your reason for choosing this way of eating?
And if a thread starts with something like "I want to do keto, but it's so hard not being able to have rice or bread", threads in which Tennisdude was in as well, so he should be aware of them, it is completely logical to ask them why the hell they'd try a way of eating that's not enjoyable for them.
But somehow it's only okay to try and get people to do keto, never to tell them it's okay to eat a different way if that's not their cup of tea.
Thank you for your very selective example.
The OP on this thread isn't suggesting they are struggling with KETO, merely asking for tips.....why then is the very first response asking if keto is the right choice?
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10676788/keto#latest
First one I opened in the Getting Started forum.
Because that is the first question you should ask when embarking on ANY plan, especially on those that restrict entire food groups.
I've seen the same question asked when people embark on vegetarian or vegan diets, and it's the right question to ask there as well.
Funny I don't see you white knighting in those threads.
I don’t have any long term experience eating vegetarian or vegan, so it would be very arrogant of me to comment or question those choices.
This is a genuine question: if someone posted something like "I'm going vegan because I heard it is the best way to lose weight and be healthy," you would refrain from commenting because you haven't personally been vegan? Would you consider it inappropriate for anyone without experience in veganism to address that misconception?
My POV: I don't think we have to have personal experience in a way of eating to address clear misconceptions. Now if a thread about veganism was full of people just saying they'd never done it and never wanted to do it, I wouldn't necessarily consider that appropriate. But I do think non-vegans can and have expressed *factual* opinions that are worth considering.
No I wouldn’t comment because I do not have any information on vegan to share.
If some asks if it was a ‘great’ way to lose weight and be healthy - and if the answer was yes. Then I certainly wouldn’t go on the thread with the intention of questioning their decision or with the intention of dissuading them - why would anybody want to dissuade someone from finding a healthy solution to losing weight?
Also if it was ‘one of the best’ ways to lose weight and be healthy, again I wouldn’t jump on the thread to promote LCHF / keto as also being one of the other best ways, as they clearly haven’t asked about LCHF.
The point (which I probably wasn't clear about) is that veganism isn't the best way to lose weight and be healthy. So I would consider it appropriate to point that out if someone was stating that they were adopting it because they thought that it was.
Vegans certainly can -- like non-vegans -- lose weight and be healthy. But veganism isn't required to lose weight and be healthy.
My point is that I wouldn't consider it inappropriate for someone to clear up misconceptions about a way of eating or lifestyle they don't personally have experience with. We're talking about facts and those are available to everyone.
So if someone was on a thread about veganism talking about how vegans can get all the B12 they need from . . . . I don't know, eating rice (this is untrue), I wouldn't think it at all odd for a non-vegan to point out that there is no B12 in rice. The personal experience with veganism is irrelevant.
So even though I've never done keto, if I saw a thread where someone was saying they were going to start it because people can't lose weight while eating a moderate or higher carbohydrate diet, I wouldn't feel weird about pointing out that isn't accurate.15 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »@tennisdude2004 Don't take the woo's personally. You can't.
I did a paleo/primal/keto/IF combo/BPC. I ate all of the fat, fat, fat. Fat is where it's at. I ate 85% fat and 10% protein and 5% carbs in the form of a frozen spinach ball and ball of wax.
When you come off the keto high, do you really believe you can eat 85% for the rest of your life to maintain what you are doing now. Can I get a witness, when you come off this protocol your body will stack the weight back on like pancakes and taking it off again will be as slow as molasses. Unless you throw yourself into another cycle of keto for giant month hunks of time but with each keto excursion the heart grows faint.
You wake up one day and realize that this cannot go on forever. There are some people here that have garnered respect from everybody. They are not playing games but genuinely want to get the truth out there. Keto is a temporary fix. Start thinking about a strategy that will help keep the positive side effects you like now with your weight and muscle mass.
So much of paleo is absolute malarkey. During the long winter months, the tribes on the plains, northern Canada and elsewhere lived with about 9 months of snow. Lakes and rivers were frozen. There was no fishing going on and hunting for wildgame during blizzards and -40 below temps were a real hardship. Bulletproof coffee and coconut oil for the big WIN...we haven't got the time.
No one owns the term and word paleo. The truth has not been told what those people went through to survive. Keto is temporary. I know a woman who did it for over a year. Wrote up her big success story and then went on a trip to Europe. She ate her way through several countries and rebounded back with every pound plus friends.
She kept trying to get back UP on that high horse and keto wagon but she lost heart.
Woo's = Boo's. They do. But there are some here who really do have your best interest at heart.
Open. Mind. Insert. Possibilities.
I think both Paleo and The Paleo Diet have both been trademarked
Keto might have been a temporary fix for you but for many it’s a gateway into LCHF and it a permanent diet model for millions.
I personally do not eat in a VLCHF model, but I certainly prefer LCHF to a higher carb diet.
I agree an open mind approach is always best.
See bolded. I would really like to see some empirical scientific evidence to back up this comment.
Better still, I would actually like to hear from more than just one person who has had long term success from following LCHF. I can only think of you and one other poster on here that are huge advocates but nobody else.
Thank you @Mari22na for sharing your keto experience and subsequent failure to keep the weight off long term.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that all it takes is a CALORIE DEFICIT to lose weight instead of saying only their way of eating is the best.
Irony alert.
This is why you don't see many posts from people experimenting with or who have fully embraced things such as paleo or keto, etc. The vast majority of responding participants aren't interested in genuine discussion and understanding of the OPs situation. They just want to bash it, in most cases because they don't understand it. You're guilty of the same charge you're aiming at others.
I've had long-term success (6+ years of over 60lbs from my heaviest) following what most would categorize as LCHF (not keto, as I don't see the benefit for myself and I eat way too many vegetables). Add that one to your list, since it seems to be a scorecard you're keeping.
Well it sounds like you werent in full blown LCHF mode then if you were eating too many vegetables. Just plain old calorie deficit seems to have done the trick. Well done.
As I knew you probably would, you have perfectly illustrated the issue with your perspective. I made a single, very general statement about my WOE, and you turned that into several assumptions to drive a smug declarative conclusion. No curiosity, no want to understand. You're attempting to take the high road by doing the same thing you're charging keto adherents (of which I am not) of.
Let's review.
I never said anything to indicate that I take issue with the concept of CICO.
I said LCHF, and you have no idea what my intake looks like. Low/high are relative terms, completely dependent on the volume a person eats. My absolute values are going to be higher than 90% of people here due to my size, but my carb intake is still 10%-15% (20% max) on any given day, with fat 50%+. That, my friend, is LCHF no matter how you'd like to slice it.
If you don't have useful input when someone asks for it on a specific eating protocol, why are you speaking? The vast majority of people here have zero experience with or have researched (past reading U.S. News and World Report) different ways of eating. Instead of being dogmatic that nothing aside from moderation and chanting CICO in a dark room will get results, just move along and discuss with those who are similarly inclined. You're in as much of an echo chamber as you think others are.
Ultimately a calorie deficit is how you have achieved weight loss, we are in agreeance with that. Its hard for me to understand why its necessary to have to lower your carb intake so drastically though when in theory its not really necessary. You can still enjoy a moderate carb intake. It would be a miserable angry existence for me to maintain a LCHF regime, but each to their own and kudos to you for being able to keep that up for so long.
Moderate to high carbs are technically unnecessary.
Not everyone has the lack of ability to reduce their carb intake as you do by the sounds of it.
It would probably be best to not judge everybody by your own dietary tastes.
Low to very low carbs are technically unnecessary too.
All that's necessary for weight/fat loss is a calorie deficit. By whatever means it is created/maintained.
Agreed, but as meta analysis proves both low carb and moderate to high carb are optimal.
So why would anyone advice a person against doing either?
You advise someone against low carb (or any level of carbs for that matter) when it's arbitrarily chosen because they heard "it works" or got suckered or scared into it. The best advice for a starting dieter is to just start eating at a deficit and adjust their macros based on their experience and preferences. MFP macro levels are fine as a starting point because they're closer to how many people eat than any macro extremes. Even then, people are also told these macros are not set in stone and that as long as they get their minimum protein and fat they can fill the rest with whatever they want. Extra steps are unnecessary until they are. The advice is not against low carb, but against lack of flexibility and arbitrary rules that lack personalization.
It works for millions of people and is as healthy as IIFYM / Calorie Counting.
Who are you to assume it will not work for them? I would suggest they they are trying LCHF because they've maybe tried your way of doing things and like millions of others, have found it unsustainable - different horses for different course.
Why not just focus on giving the OP the tools and information to help them make their diet a success. I'm sure if its not for them they will work it out for themselves, but they have a right to give it a good try without being scupper before they begin.
I'm really not sure how you read posts. Where in my post did you see me assuming their preference? What I'm basically advocating is that they explore their preferences and situation. If they tried something and it didn't work, then that's exactly the process I'm advocating: to explore what things aren't working for them and how they could adapt them. They may as well arrive at an extra low or extra high level of carbs as their preferred level, but it would be due to their own preference, not because they were told to do it. There is a big difference there. Sustainability comes from personalization, and learning to make personalized decisions early is setting them up for success. That's why most threads start with replies that ask questions without making assumptions: what is your reason for choosing this way of eating?
And if a thread starts with something like "I want to do keto, but it's so hard not being able to have rice or bread", threads in which Tennisdude was in as well, so he should be aware of them, it is completely logical to ask them why the hell they'd try a way of eating that's not enjoyable for them.
But somehow it's only okay to try and get people to do keto, never to tell them it's okay to eat a different way if that's not their cup of tea.
Thank you for your very selective example.
The OP on this thread isn't suggesting they are struggling with KETO, merely asking for tips.....why then is the very first response asking if keto is the right choice?
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10676788/keto#latest
First one I opened in the Getting Started forum.
Because that is the first question you should ask when embarking on ANY plan, especially on those that restrict entire food groups.
I've seen the same question asked when people embark on vegetarian or vegan diets, and it's the right question to ask there as well.
Funny I don't see you white knighting in those threads.
I don’t have any long term experience eating vegetarian or vegan, so it would be very arrogant of me to comment or question those choices.
This is a genuine question: if someone posted something like "I'm going vegan because I heard it is the best way to lose weight and be healthy," you would refrain from commenting because you haven't personally been vegan? Would you consider it inappropriate for anyone without experience in veganism to address that misconception?
My POV: I don't think we have to have personal experience in a way of eating to address clear misconceptions. Now if a thread about veganism was full of people just saying they'd never done it and never wanted to do it, I wouldn't necessarily consider that appropriate. But I do think non-vegans can and have expressed *factual* opinions that are worth considering.
No I wouldn’t comment because I do not have any information on vegan to share.
If some asks if it was a ‘great’ way to lose weight and be healthy - and if the answer was yes. Then I certainly wouldn’t go on the thread with the intention of questioning their decision or with the intention of dissuading them - why would anybody want to dissuade someone from finding a healthy solution to losing weight?
Also if it was ‘one of the best’ ways to lose weight and be healthy, again I wouldn’t jump on the thread to promote LCHF / keto as also being one of the other best ways, as they clearly haven’t asked about LCHF.
The point (which I probably wasn't clear about) is that veganism isn't the best way to lose weight and be healthy. So I would consider it appropriate to point that out if someone was stating that they were adopting it because they thought that it was.
Vegans certainly can -- like non-vegans -- lose weight and be healthy. But veganism isn't required to lose weight and be healthy.
My point is that I wouldn't consider it inappropriate for someone to clear up misconceptions about a way of eating or lifestyle they don't personally have experience with. We're talking about facts and those are available to everyone.
So if someone was on a thread about veganism talking about how vegans can get all the B12 they need from . . . . I don't know, eating rice (this is untrue), I wouldn't think it at all odd for a non-vegan to point out that there is no B12 in rice. The personal experience with veganism is irrelevant.
So even though I've never done keto, if I saw a thread where someone was saying they were going to start it because people can't lose weight while eating a moderate or higher carbohydrate diet, I wouldn't feel weird about pointing out that isn't accurate.
Just want to add that I've known several people who started eating vegetarian or vegan because they thought they could lose weight that way.
I think clarifying why a person wants to eat a certain way is a harmless question...9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »@tennisdude2004 Don't take the woo's personally. You can't.
I did a paleo/primal/keto/IF combo/BPC. I ate all of the fat, fat, fat. Fat is where it's at. I ate 85% fat and 10% protein and 5% carbs in the form of a frozen spinach ball and ball of wax.
When you come off the keto high, do you really believe you can eat 85% for the rest of your life to maintain what you are doing now. Can I get a witness, when you come off this protocol your body will stack the weight back on like pancakes and taking it off again will be as slow as molasses. Unless you throw yourself into another cycle of keto for giant month hunks of time but with each keto excursion the heart grows faint.
You wake up one day and realize that this cannot go on forever. There are some people here that have garnered respect from everybody. They are not playing games but genuinely want to get the truth out there. Keto is a temporary fix. Start thinking about a strategy that will help keep the positive side effects you like now with your weight and muscle mass.
So much of paleo is absolute malarkey. During the long winter months, the tribes on the plains, northern Canada and elsewhere lived with about 9 months of snow. Lakes and rivers were frozen. There was no fishing going on and hunting for wildgame during blizzards and -40 below temps were a real hardship. Bulletproof coffee and coconut oil for the big WIN...we haven't got the time.
No one owns the term and word paleo. The truth has not been told what those people went through to survive. Keto is temporary. I know a woman who did it for over a year. Wrote up her big success story and then went on a trip to Europe. She ate her way through several countries and rebounded back with every pound plus friends.
She kept trying to get back UP on that high horse and keto wagon but she lost heart.
Woo's = Boo's. They do. But there are some here who really do have your best interest at heart.
Open. Mind. Insert. Possibilities.
I think both Paleo and The Paleo Diet have both been trademarked
Keto might have been a temporary fix for you but for many it’s a gateway into LCHF and it a permanent diet model for millions.
I personally do not eat in a VLCHF model, but I certainly prefer LCHF to a higher carb diet.
I agree an open mind approach is always best.
See bolded. I would really like to see some empirical scientific evidence to back up this comment.
Better still, I would actually like to hear from more than just one person who has had long term success from following LCHF. I can only think of you and one other poster on here that are huge advocates but nobody else.
Thank you @Mari22na for sharing your keto experience and subsequent failure to keep the weight off long term.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that all it takes is a CALORIE DEFICIT to lose weight instead of saying only their way of eating is the best.
Irony alert.
This is why you don't see many posts from people experimenting with or who have fully embraced things such as paleo or keto, etc. The vast majority of responding participants aren't interested in genuine discussion and understanding of the OPs situation. They just want to bash it, in most cases because they don't understand it. You're guilty of the same charge you're aiming at others.
I've had long-term success (6+ years of over 60lbs from my heaviest) following what most would categorize as LCHF (not keto, as I don't see the benefit for myself and I eat way too many vegetables). Add that one to your list, since it seems to be a scorecard you're keeping.
Well it sounds like you werent in full blown LCHF mode then if you were eating too many vegetables. Just plain old calorie deficit seems to have done the trick. Well done.
As I knew you probably would, you have perfectly illustrated the issue with your perspective. I made a single, very general statement about my WOE, and you turned that into several assumptions to drive a smug declarative conclusion. No curiosity, no want to understand. You're attempting to take the high road by doing the same thing you're charging keto adherents (of which I am not) of.
Let's review.
I never said anything to indicate that I take issue with the concept of CICO.
I said LCHF, and you have no idea what my intake looks like. Low/high are relative terms, completely dependent on the volume a person eats. My absolute values are going to be higher than 90% of people here due to my size, but my carb intake is still 10%-15% (20% max) on any given day, with fat 50%+. That, my friend, is LCHF no matter how you'd like to slice it.
If you don't have useful input when someone asks for it on a specific eating protocol, why are you speaking? The vast majority of people here have zero experience with or have researched (past reading U.S. News and World Report) different ways of eating. Instead of being dogmatic that nothing aside from moderation and chanting CICO in a dark room will get results, just move along and discuss with those who are similarly inclined. You're in as much of an echo chamber as you think others are.
Ultimately a calorie deficit is how you have achieved weight loss, we are in agreeance with that. Its hard for me to understand why its necessary to have to lower your carb intake so drastically though when in theory its not really necessary. You can still enjoy a moderate carb intake. It would be a miserable angry existence for me to maintain a LCHF regime, but each to their own and kudos to you for being able to keep that up for so long.
Moderate to high carbs are technically unnecessary.
Not everyone has the lack of ability to reduce their carb intake as you do by the sounds of it.
It would probably be best to not judge everybody by your own dietary tastes.
Low to very low carbs are technically unnecessary too.
All that's necessary for weight/fat loss is a calorie deficit. By whatever means it is created/maintained.
Agreed, but as meta analysis proves both low carb and moderate to high carb are optimal.
So why would anyone advice a person against doing either?
You advise someone against low carb (or any level of carbs for that matter) when it's arbitrarily chosen because they heard "it works" or got suckered or scared into it. The best advice for a starting dieter is to just start eating at a deficit and adjust their macros based on their experience and preferences. MFP macro levels are fine as a starting point because they're closer to how many people eat than any macro extremes. Even then, people are also told these macros are not set in stone and that as long as they get their minimum protein and fat they can fill the rest with whatever they want. Extra steps are unnecessary until they are. The advice is not against low carb, but against lack of flexibility and arbitrary rules that lack personalization.
It works for millions of people and is as healthy as IIFYM / Calorie Counting.
Who are you to assume it will not work for them? I would suggest they they are trying LCHF because they've maybe tried your way of doing things and like millions of others, have found it unsustainable - different horses for different course.
Why not just focus on giving the OP the tools and information to help them make their diet a success. I'm sure if its not for them they will work it out for themselves, but they have a right to give it a good try without being scupper before they begin.
I'm really not sure how you read posts. Where in my post did you see me assuming their preference? What I'm basically advocating is that they explore their preferences and situation. If they tried something and it didn't work, then that's exactly the process I'm advocating: to explore what things aren't working for them and how they could adapt them. They may as well arrive at an extra low or extra high level of carbs as their preferred level, but it would be due to their own preference, not because they were told to do it. There is a big difference there. Sustainability comes from personalization, and learning to make personalized decisions early is setting them up for success. That's why most threads start with replies that ask questions without making assumptions: what is your reason for choosing this way of eating?
And if a thread starts with something like "I want to do keto, but it's so hard not being able to have rice or bread", threads in which Tennisdude was in as well, so he should be aware of them, it is completely logical to ask them why the hell they'd try a way of eating that's not enjoyable for them.
But somehow it's only okay to try and get people to do keto, never to tell them it's okay to eat a different way if that's not their cup of tea.
Thank you for your very selective example.
The OP on this thread isn't suggesting they are struggling with KETO, merely asking for tips.....why then is the very first response asking if keto is the right choice?
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10676788/keto#latest
First one I opened in the Getting Started forum.
Because that is the first question you should ask when embarking on ANY plan, especially on those that restrict entire food groups.
I've seen the same question asked when people embark on vegetarian or vegan diets, and it's the right question to ask there as well.
Funny I don't see you white knighting in those threads.
I don’t have any long term experience eating vegetarian or vegan, so it would be very arrogant of me to comment or question those choices.
This is a genuine question: if someone posted something like "I'm going vegan because I heard it is the best way to lose weight and be healthy," you would refrain from commenting because you haven't personally been vegan? Would you consider it inappropriate for anyone without experience in veganism to address that misconception?
My POV: I don't think we have to have personal experience in a way of eating to address clear misconceptions. Now if a thread about veganism was full of people just saying they'd never done it and never wanted to do it, I wouldn't necessarily consider that appropriate. But I do think non-vegans can and have expressed *factual* opinions that are worth considering.
No I wouldn’t comment because I do not have any information on vegan to share.
If some asks if it was a ‘great’ way to lose weight and be healthy - and if the answer was yes. Then I certainly wouldn’t go on the thread with the intention of questioning their decision or with the intention of dissuading them - why would anybody want to dissuade someone from finding a healthy solution to losing weight?
Also if it was ‘one of the best’ ways to lose weight and be healthy, again I wouldn’t jump on the thread to promote LCHF / keto as also being one of the other best ways, as they clearly haven’t asked about LCHF.
The point (which I probably wasn't clear about) is that veganism isn't the best way to lose weight and be healthy. So I would consider it appropriate to point that out if someone was stating that they were adopting it because they thought that it was.
Vegans certainly can -- like non-vegans -- lose weight and be healthy. But veganism isn't required to lose weight and be healthy.
My point is that I wouldn't consider it inappropriate for someone to clear up misconceptions about a way of eating or lifestyle they don't personally have experience with. We're talking about facts and those are available to everyone.
So if someone was on a thread about veganism talking about how vegans can get all the B12 they need from . . . . I don't know, eating rice (this is untrue), I wouldn't think it at all odd for a non-vegan to point out that there is no B12 in rice. The personal experience with veganism is irrelevant.
So even though I've never done keto, if I saw a thread where someone was saying they were going to start it because people can't lose weight while eating a moderate or higher carbohydrate diet, I wouldn't feel weird about pointing out that isn't accurate.
Counting calories and moderation isn't the best way to lose weight and neither is keto / LCHF, as meta analysis has scientifically confirmed they are equal, they are both 'one of the best'.
If someone was starting a thread saying 'I've heard calorie counting/moderation is the best way to lose weight and be healthy'. I certainly wouldn't be insecure enough about LCHF to have to rush over to the thread and point out to the OP that there are other 'best' ways to lose weight and be healthy and question why they have chosen this method, because it doesn't work for a hell of a lot of people - just try LCHF it worked for me so it must work for you.
I would probably respect the fact that the OP wants to try CC/moderation. I do have experience with CC/moderation so technically I could join the thread as I used to do it but found it too much hassle to have weight everything and log every bit of food I ate, then the hassle of wanting to eat out and having to workout what food values were at the restaurant and not to mention still be hungry at the end of my calorie allowance. But that was my experience and I know not everyone is like me, so I would let the OP get some help and tips from people it has worked for, so hopefully with all the right tools it will work for the OP also.
The truth is cc/moderation isn't required to lose weight and be healthy, but its a great tool for the people that find it comfortable to use.
5 -
annaskiski wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »@tennisdude2004 Don't take the woo's personally. You can't.
I did a paleo/primal/keto/IF combo/BPC. I ate all of the fat, fat, fat. Fat is where it's at. I ate 85% fat and 10% protein and 5% carbs in the form of a frozen spinach ball and ball of wax.
When you come off the keto high, do you really believe you can eat 85% for the rest of your life to maintain what you are doing now. Can I get a witness, when you come off this protocol your body will stack the weight back on like pancakes and taking it off again will be as slow as molasses. Unless you throw yourself into another cycle of keto for giant month hunks of time but with each keto excursion the heart grows faint.
You wake up one day and realize that this cannot go on forever. There are some people here that have garnered respect from everybody. They are not playing games but genuinely want to get the truth out there. Keto is a temporary fix. Start thinking about a strategy that will help keep the positive side effects you like now with your weight and muscle mass.
So much of paleo is absolute malarkey. During the long winter months, the tribes on the plains, northern Canada and elsewhere lived with about 9 months of snow. Lakes and rivers were frozen. There was no fishing going on and hunting for wildgame during blizzards and -40 below temps were a real hardship. Bulletproof coffee and coconut oil for the big WIN...we haven't got the time.
No one owns the term and word paleo. The truth has not been told what those people went through to survive. Keto is temporary. I know a woman who did it for over a year. Wrote up her big success story and then went on a trip to Europe. She ate her way through several countries and rebounded back with every pound plus friends.
She kept trying to get back UP on that high horse and keto wagon but she lost heart.
Woo's = Boo's. They do. But there are some here who really do have your best interest at heart.
Open. Mind. Insert. Possibilities.
I think both Paleo and The Paleo Diet have both been trademarked
Keto might have been a temporary fix for you but for many it’s a gateway into LCHF and it a permanent diet model for millions.
I personally do not eat in a VLCHF model, but I certainly prefer LCHF to a higher carb diet.
I agree an open mind approach is always best.
See bolded. I would really like to see some empirical scientific evidence to back up this comment.
Better still, I would actually like to hear from more than just one person who has had long term success from following LCHF. I can only think of you and one other poster on here that are huge advocates but nobody else.
Thank you @Mari22na for sharing your keto experience and subsequent failure to keep the weight off long term.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that all it takes is a CALORIE DEFICIT to lose weight instead of saying only their way of eating is the best.
Irony alert.
This is why you don't see many posts from people experimenting with or who have fully embraced things such as paleo or keto, etc. The vast majority of responding participants aren't interested in genuine discussion and understanding of the OPs situation. They just want to bash it, in most cases because they don't understand it. You're guilty of the same charge you're aiming at others.
I've had long-term success (6+ years of over 60lbs from my heaviest) following what most would categorize as LCHF (not keto, as I don't see the benefit for myself and I eat way too many vegetables). Add that one to your list, since it seems to be a scorecard you're keeping.
Well it sounds like you werent in full blown LCHF mode then if you were eating too many vegetables. Just plain old calorie deficit seems to have done the trick. Well done.
As I knew you probably would, you have perfectly illustrated the issue with your perspective. I made a single, very general statement about my WOE, and you turned that into several assumptions to drive a smug declarative conclusion. No curiosity, no want to understand. You're attempting to take the high road by doing the same thing you're charging keto adherents (of which I am not) of.
Let's review.
I never said anything to indicate that I take issue with the concept of CICO.
I said LCHF, and you have no idea what my intake looks like. Low/high are relative terms, completely dependent on the volume a person eats. My absolute values are going to be higher than 90% of people here due to my size, but my carb intake is still 10%-15% (20% max) on any given day, with fat 50%+. That, my friend, is LCHF no matter how you'd like to slice it.
If you don't have useful input when someone asks for it on a specific eating protocol, why are you speaking? The vast majority of people here have zero experience with or have researched (past reading U.S. News and World Report) different ways of eating. Instead of being dogmatic that nothing aside from moderation and chanting CICO in a dark room will get results, just move along and discuss with those who are similarly inclined. You're in as much of an echo chamber as you think others are.
Ultimately a calorie deficit is how you have achieved weight loss, we are in agreeance with that. Its hard for me to understand why its necessary to have to lower your carb intake so drastically though when in theory its not really necessary. You can still enjoy a moderate carb intake. It would be a miserable angry existence for me to maintain a LCHF regime, but each to their own and kudos to you for being able to keep that up for so long.
Moderate to high carbs are technically unnecessary.
Not everyone has the lack of ability to reduce their carb intake as you do by the sounds of it.
It would probably be best to not judge everybody by your own dietary tastes.
Low to very low carbs are technically unnecessary too.
All that's necessary for weight/fat loss is a calorie deficit. By whatever means it is created/maintained.
Agreed, but as meta analysis proves both low carb and moderate to high carb are optimal.
So why would anyone advice a person against doing either?
You advise someone against low carb (or any level of carbs for that matter) when it's arbitrarily chosen because they heard "it works" or got suckered or scared into it. The best advice for a starting dieter is to just start eating at a deficit and adjust their macros based on their experience and preferences. MFP macro levels are fine as a starting point because they're closer to how many people eat than any macro extremes. Even then, people are also told these macros are not set in stone and that as long as they get their minimum protein and fat they can fill the rest with whatever they want. Extra steps are unnecessary until they are. The advice is not against low carb, but against lack of flexibility and arbitrary rules that lack personalization.
It works for millions of people and is as healthy as IIFYM / Calorie Counting.
Who are you to assume it will not work for them? I would suggest they they are trying LCHF because they've maybe tried your way of doing things and like millions of others, have found it unsustainable - different horses for different course.
Why not just focus on giving the OP the tools and information to help them make their diet a success. I'm sure if its not for them they will work it out for themselves, but they have a right to give it a good try without being scupper before they begin.
I'm really not sure how you read posts. Where in my post did you see me assuming their preference? What I'm basically advocating is that they explore their preferences and situation. If they tried something and it didn't work, then that's exactly the process I'm advocating: to explore what things aren't working for them and how they could adapt them. They may as well arrive at an extra low or extra high level of carbs as their preferred level, but it would be due to their own preference, not because they were told to do it. There is a big difference there. Sustainability comes from personalization, and learning to make personalized decisions early is setting them up for success. That's why most threads start with replies that ask questions without making assumptions: what is your reason for choosing this way of eating?
And if a thread starts with something like "I want to do keto, but it's so hard not being able to have rice or bread", threads in which Tennisdude was in as well, so he should be aware of them, it is completely logical to ask them why the hell they'd try a way of eating that's not enjoyable for them.
But somehow it's only okay to try and get people to do keto, never to tell them it's okay to eat a different way if that's not their cup of tea.
Thank you for your very selective example.
The OP on this thread isn't suggesting they are struggling with KETO, merely asking for tips.....why then is the very first response asking if keto is the right choice?
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10676788/keto#latest
First one I opened in the Getting Started forum.
Because that is the first question you should ask when embarking on ANY plan, especially on those that restrict entire food groups.
I've seen the same question asked when people embark on vegetarian or vegan diets, and it's the right question to ask there as well.
Funny I don't see you white knighting in those threads.
I don’t have any long term experience eating vegetarian or vegan, so it would be very arrogant of me to comment or question those choices.
This is a genuine question: if someone posted something like "I'm going vegan because I heard it is the best way to lose weight and be healthy," you would refrain from commenting because you haven't personally been vegan? Would you consider it inappropriate for anyone without experience in veganism to address that misconception?
My POV: I don't think we have to have personal experience in a way of eating to address clear misconceptions. Now if a thread about veganism was full of people just saying they'd never done it and never wanted to do it, I wouldn't necessarily consider that appropriate. But I do think non-vegans can and have expressed *factual* opinions that are worth considering.
No I wouldn’t comment because I do not have any information on vegan to share.
If some asks if it was a ‘great’ way to lose weight and be healthy - and if the answer was yes. Then I certainly wouldn’t go on the thread with the intention of questioning their decision or with the intention of dissuading them - why would anybody want to dissuade someone from finding a healthy solution to losing weight?
Also if it was ‘one of the best’ ways to lose weight and be healthy, again I wouldn’t jump on the thread to promote LCHF / keto as also being one of the other best ways, as they clearly haven’t asked about LCHF.
The point (which I probably wasn't clear about) is that veganism isn't the best way to lose weight and be healthy. So I would consider it appropriate to point that out if someone was stating that they were adopting it because they thought that it was.
Vegans certainly can -- like non-vegans -- lose weight and be healthy. But veganism isn't required to lose weight and be healthy.
My point is that I wouldn't consider it inappropriate for someone to clear up misconceptions about a way of eating or lifestyle they don't personally have experience with. We're talking about facts and those are available to everyone.
So if someone was on a thread about veganism talking about how vegans can get all the B12 they need from . . . . I don't know, eating rice (this is untrue), I wouldn't think it at all odd for a non-vegan to point out that there is no B12 in rice. The personal experience with veganism is irrelevant.
So even though I've never done keto, if I saw a thread where someone was saying they were going to start it because people can't lose weight while eating a moderate or higher carbohydrate diet, I wouldn't feel weird about pointing out that isn't accurate.
Just want to add that I've known several people who started eating vegetarian or vegan because they thought they could lose weight that way.
I think clarifying why a person wants to eat a certain way is a harmless question...
Yes, I also consider it harmless or sometimes even helpful (as it may undercover when a person is misinformed about how weight loss actually happens).6 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »@tennisdude2004 Don't take the woo's personally. You can't.
I did a paleo/primal/keto/IF combo/BPC. I ate all of the fat, fat, fat. Fat is where it's at. I ate 85% fat and 10% protein and 5% carbs in the form of a frozen spinach ball and ball of wax.
When you come off the keto high, do you really believe you can eat 85% for the rest of your life to maintain what you are doing now. Can I get a witness, when you come off this protocol your body will stack the weight back on like pancakes and taking it off again will be as slow as molasses. Unless you throw yourself into another cycle of keto for giant month hunks of time but with each keto excursion the heart grows faint.
You wake up one day and realize that this cannot go on forever. There are some people here that have garnered respect from everybody. They are not playing games but genuinely want to get the truth out there. Keto is a temporary fix. Start thinking about a strategy that will help keep the positive side effects you like now with your weight and muscle mass.
So much of paleo is absolute malarkey. During the long winter months, the tribes on the plains, northern Canada and elsewhere lived with about 9 months of snow. Lakes and rivers were frozen. There was no fishing going on and hunting for wildgame during blizzards and -40 below temps were a real hardship. Bulletproof coffee and coconut oil for the big WIN...we haven't got the time.
No one owns the term and word paleo. The truth has not been told what those people went through to survive. Keto is temporary. I know a woman who did it for over a year. Wrote up her big success story and then went on a trip to Europe. She ate her way through several countries and rebounded back with every pound plus friends.
She kept trying to get back UP on that high horse and keto wagon but she lost heart.
Woo's = Boo's. They do. But there are some here who really do have your best interest at heart.
Open. Mind. Insert. Possibilities.
I think both Paleo and The Paleo Diet have both been trademarked
Keto might have been a temporary fix for you but for many it’s a gateway into LCHF and it a permanent diet model for millions.
I personally do not eat in a VLCHF model, but I certainly prefer LCHF to a higher carb diet.
I agree an open mind approach is always best.
See bolded. I would really like to see some empirical scientific evidence to back up this comment.
Better still, I would actually like to hear from more than just one person who has had long term success from following LCHF. I can only think of you and one other poster on here that are huge advocates but nobody else.
Thank you @Mari22na for sharing your keto experience and subsequent failure to keep the weight off long term.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that all it takes is a CALORIE DEFICIT to lose weight instead of saying only their way of eating is the best.
Irony alert.
This is why you don't see many posts from people experimenting with or who have fully embraced things such as paleo or keto, etc. The vast majority of responding participants aren't interested in genuine discussion and understanding of the OPs situation. They just want to bash it, in most cases because they don't understand it. You're guilty of the same charge you're aiming at others.
I've had long-term success (6+ years of over 60lbs from my heaviest) following what most would categorize as LCHF (not keto, as I don't see the benefit for myself and I eat way too many vegetables). Add that one to your list, since it seems to be a scorecard you're keeping.
Well it sounds like you werent in full blown LCHF mode then if you were eating too many vegetables. Just plain old calorie deficit seems to have done the trick. Well done.
As I knew you probably would, you have perfectly illustrated the issue with your perspective. I made a single, very general statement about my WOE, and you turned that into several assumptions to drive a smug declarative conclusion. No curiosity, no want to understand. You're attempting to take the high road by doing the same thing you're charging keto adherents (of which I am not) of.
Let's review.
I never said anything to indicate that I take issue with the concept of CICO.
I said LCHF, and you have no idea what my intake looks like. Low/high are relative terms, completely dependent on the volume a person eats. My absolute values are going to be higher than 90% of people here due to my size, but my carb intake is still 10%-15% (20% max) on any given day, with fat 50%+. That, my friend, is LCHF no matter how you'd like to slice it.
If you don't have useful input when someone asks for it on a specific eating protocol, why are you speaking? The vast majority of people here have zero experience with or have researched (past reading U.S. News and World Report) different ways of eating. Instead of being dogmatic that nothing aside from moderation and chanting CICO in a dark room will get results, just move along and discuss with those who are similarly inclined. You're in as much of an echo chamber as you think others are.
Ultimately a calorie deficit is how you have achieved weight loss, we are in agreeance with that. Its hard for me to understand why its necessary to have to lower your carb intake so drastically though when in theory its not really necessary. You can still enjoy a moderate carb intake. It would be a miserable angry existence for me to maintain a LCHF regime, but each to their own and kudos to you for being able to keep that up for so long.
Moderate to high carbs are technically unnecessary.
Not everyone has the lack of ability to reduce their carb intake as you do by the sounds of it.
It would probably be best to not judge everybody by your own dietary tastes.
Low to very low carbs are technically unnecessary too.
All that's necessary for weight/fat loss is a calorie deficit. By whatever means it is created/maintained.
Agreed, but as meta analysis proves both low carb and moderate to high carb are optimal.
So why would anyone advice a person against doing either?
You advise someone against low carb (or any level of carbs for that matter) when it's arbitrarily chosen because they heard "it works" or got suckered or scared into it. The best advice for a starting dieter is to just start eating at a deficit and adjust their macros based on their experience and preferences. MFP macro levels are fine as a starting point because they're closer to how many people eat than any macro extremes. Even then, people are also told these macros are not set in stone and that as long as they get their minimum protein and fat they can fill the rest with whatever they want. Extra steps are unnecessary until they are. The advice is not against low carb, but against lack of flexibility and arbitrary rules that lack personalization.
It works for millions of people and is as healthy as IIFYM / Calorie Counting.
Who are you to assume it will not work for them? I would suggest they they are trying LCHF because they've maybe tried your way of doing things and like millions of others, have found it unsustainable - different horses for different course.
Why not just focus on giving the OP the tools and information to help them make their diet a success. I'm sure if its not for them they will work it out for themselves, but they have a right to give it a good try without being scupper before they begin.
I'm really not sure how you read posts. Where in my post did you see me assuming their preference? What I'm basically advocating is that they explore their preferences and situation. If they tried something and it didn't work, then that's exactly the process I'm advocating: to explore what things aren't working for them and how they could adapt them. They may as well arrive at an extra low or extra high level of carbs as their preferred level, but it would be due to their own preference, not because they were told to do it. There is a big difference there. Sustainability comes from personalization, and learning to make personalized decisions early is setting them up for success. That's why most threads start with replies that ask questions without making assumptions: what is your reason for choosing this way of eating?
And if a thread starts with something like "I want to do keto, but it's so hard not being able to have rice or bread", threads in which Tennisdude was in as well, so he should be aware of them, it is completely logical to ask them why the hell they'd try a way of eating that's not enjoyable for them.
But somehow it's only okay to try and get people to do keto, never to tell them it's okay to eat a different way if that's not their cup of tea.
Thank you for your very selective example.
The OP on this thread isn't suggesting they are struggling with KETO, merely asking for tips.....why then is the very first response asking if keto is the right choice?
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10676788/keto#latest
First one I opened in the Getting Started forum.
Because that is the first question you should ask when embarking on ANY plan, especially on those that restrict entire food groups.
I've seen the same question asked when people embark on vegetarian or vegan diets, and it's the right question to ask there as well.
Funny I don't see you white knighting in those threads.
I don’t have any long term experience eating vegetarian or vegan, so it would be very arrogant of me to comment or question those choices.
This is a genuine question: if someone posted something like "I'm going vegan because I heard it is the best way to lose weight and be healthy," you would refrain from commenting because you haven't personally been vegan? Would you consider it inappropriate for anyone without experience in veganism to address that misconception?
My POV: I don't think we have to have personal experience in a way of eating to address clear misconceptions. Now if a thread about veganism was full of people just saying they'd never done it and never wanted to do it, I wouldn't necessarily consider that appropriate. But I do think non-vegans can and have expressed *factual* opinions that are worth considering.
No I wouldn’t comment because I do not have any information on vegan to share.
If some asks if it was a ‘great’ way to lose weight and be healthy - and if the answer was yes. Then I certainly wouldn’t go on the thread with the intention of questioning their decision or with the intention of dissuading them - why would anybody want to dissuade someone from finding a healthy solution to losing weight?
Also if it was ‘one of the best’ ways to lose weight and be healthy, again I wouldn’t jump on the thread to promote LCHF / keto as also being one of the other best ways, as they clearly haven’t asked about LCHF.
The point (which I probably wasn't clear about) is that veganism isn't the best way to lose weight and be healthy. So I would consider it appropriate to point that out if someone was stating that they were adopting it because they thought that it was.
Vegans certainly can -- like non-vegans -- lose weight and be healthy. But veganism isn't required to lose weight and be healthy.
My point is that I wouldn't consider it inappropriate for someone to clear up misconceptions about a way of eating or lifestyle they don't personally have experience with. We're talking about facts and those are available to everyone.
So if someone was on a thread about veganism talking about how vegans can get all the B12 they need from . . . . I don't know, eating rice (this is untrue), I wouldn't think it at all odd for a non-vegan to point out that there is no B12 in rice. The personal experience with veganism is irrelevant.
So even though I've never done keto, if I saw a thread where someone was saying they were going to start it because people can't lose weight while eating a moderate or higher carbohydrate diet, I wouldn't feel weird about pointing out that isn't accurate.
Counting calories and moderation isn't the best way to lose weight and neither is keto / LCHF, as meta analysis has scientifically confirmed they are equal, they are both 'one of the best'.
If someone was starting a thread saying 'I've heard calorie counting/moderation is the best way to lose weight and be healthy'. I certainly wouldn't be insecure enough about LCHF to have to rush over to the thread and point out to the OP that there are other 'best' ways to lose weight and be healthy and question why they have chosen this method, because it doesn't work for a hell of a lot of people - just try LCHF it worked for me so it must work for you.
I would probably respect the fact that the OP wants to try CC/moderation. I do have experience with CC/moderation so technically I could join the thread as I used to do it but found it too much hassle to have weight everything and log every bit of food I ate, then the hassle of wanting to eat out and having to workout what food values were at the restaurant and not to mention still be hungry at the end of my calorie allowance. But that was my experience and I know not everyone is like me, so I would let the OP get some help and tips from people it has worked for, so hopefully with all the right tools it will work for the OP also.
The truth is cc/moderation isn't required to lose weight and be healthy, but its a great tool for the people that find it comfortable to use.
Were you under the impression that I was arguing that calorie counting is, objectively, the best way to lose weight? Because that isn't my opinion. It's certainly the best way for *me*, out of everything I tried, and I think others have also had success with it (while others, like you, don't find it to the best for them).
A calorie *deficit* is how everyone loses weight. But the "best" way to do that is the way an individual finds to be the most comfortable and sustainable fit for their lifestyle and preferences. For some people, that will be calorie counting. For others, it won't.
I personally don't think it is is inappropriate for someone to point out that there is no single or best way for 100% of people to reach a calorie deficit.11 -
annaskiski wrote: »Just want to add that I've known several people who started eating vegetarian or vegan because they thought they could lose weight that way.
I think clarifying why a person wants to eat a certain way is a harmless question...
In isolation, maybe. However, in my experience if the answer isn't for ethical reasons or specific health reasons, that shouldn't be seen as an invitation to a debate about their woe and the question certainly puts me on edge when i'm not really looking for a debate (I do think it's more appropriate when they're just considering something, though, compared to when they've already made the choice).
Correcting factual mistakes, on the other hand, is something that can be done by anyone, as long as the information is correct.3 -
But this is the debate forum..1
-
annaskiski wrote: »But this is the debate forum..
This particular one is set up specifically for that function. The rest of the community forums I assume are meant more for advice and support (and a couple for fun)!0 -
annaskiski wrote: »But this is the debate forum..
Sure, but the primary referenced thread was not in the debate forum, so a more generalized reply seemed appropriate. Obviously, any statement is free to be challenged in the debate forum.0 -
Interesting article about celebrity chef "Paleo Pete" is the banning of his documentary on netflix a good call?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=120808563 -
I like Pete's response to the AMA:
""Does the head of the AMA believe that eating vegetables and fruit with a side of well sourced meat/seafood/eggs to be a dangerous way of life? If so can they please share the evidence that this way of eating is detrimental to the health of human beings.""
I do think including the cancer survivor was not the best choice. Or perhaps if they had made it more clear that they aren't suggesting just diet changes to treat cancer. The autism patients were already doing conventional therapy, which they were able to reduce after being on the diet a while, so it doesn't have that same worry, IMO4 -
I was on keto for 5 weeks and lost 23 lbs. After the 2nd week though my gall bladder became inflamed and it was a miracle if I pooped more than 3x a week. Beans are not the enemy, lack of fiber is.2
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