Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
That Keto is so hot right now
Options
Replies
-
tbright1965 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
Maybe that’s the problem. If we have a nanny state, there is no incentive to become educated or to use logic and reason. Those who benefit from more and more regulation lobby for more and more, with dubious benefits to the general public.
So you give me a break. People do not need to give up freedom to live in a society. They need to give up the notion that others should be controlled and told what is best for them and others.
If they do not make good choices, let the consequences fall only on them. If they harm others, they are responsible to make those harmed whole.
If people want to know nutrition information, let them ask. It’s the slippery slope argument. Just because it is not your freedoms being infringed doesn’t mean freedoms are not at risk.
So if we are really interested in the greater good, we cannot discount and marginalize the loss of freedom just because the loser is not a popular entity.
I really see it no different than suggesting that women or people of color are not really losing freedoms.
The loss of freedom for one is the loss for all.
Well that's unnecessarily dramatic. It's fricken caloric information for those who want it. It's not like they are being required to weight the patrons as they enter and give them a menu based on BMI.21 -
tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.10 -
tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
As to the first bolded, I cited several examples earlier. I ascribe to an orderly society point of view that sees a reasonable amount of regulation as being for the public good. You are obviously more libertarian. We disagree.
As far as the enforcement, I am not qualified to answer that. As I mentioned, my most intimate experience with chain restaurants was pre-disclosure regs. As someone previously mentioned, the recipes aren't independently tested. I will say that chain restaurant depend on good will and public perception of honestly. They have the information. I see no value to them to disclose it inaccurately. If this came to light it would only damage the value of their brand. They live night and day trying to build the positive perception of public trust for their brands in a very competitive industry. To suggest otherwise is a level a cynicism that is absurd. They gain no profit from false or inaccurate information.
As to the 2nd bolded, the answer is yes. I do use a food scale, as does everyone else I've ever known in the food industry and especially in chain restaurants. They get used all day every day.
You're perception that workers in chain restaurant kitchens are randomly just using a pinch of this and a dash of that is just plain wrong. The recipes and amounts are precise for the purposes of cost control and replication of guest experience. The margin of error is far less that the 20% you suggest, not just in chains but in any restaurant kitchen where staying in business matters. Food cost control is critical, as I previously stated. If you ever get the chance to walk through a chain restaurant kitchen, you will see portioning scales everywhere. it's a fundamental part of restaurant kitchen management.
As you said, your have no experience in the restaurant industry. Your comment make this very clear.17 -
tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
Mandatory auto insurance, health and safety regulations, environmental regulations, child labor laws, etc.I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
I would imagine the same repercussions as those already in place for prepackaged foods. It's not as if we don't already have a precedent.As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
Quite often. Especially when baking or portioning meats. Chain restaurants are even more stringent.My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
You already admitted that you have no experience in the food industry. So let's stop making assumptions based on what you see on the food network.
Speedometers have a margin of error as well.This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
14 -
tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
I was a kitchen manager at a fast service restaurant (which had more than 20 locations) while I was in college. We absolutely used a scale while preparing food. Meat and cheese portions were pre-weighed for faster prep, etc. When it came to the employees preparing food on the line, there wasn't much decision making involved and we were often checking the stuff they did get to decide on.
9 -
I was skeptical at first, but I thought I'd give it a try. I've been on it for three and a half months.
What I know personally about KETO:
* I have lost 28 pounds (not shabby for me)
* My husband, who usually shuns my diets, has lost over 50 pounds.
* My husband, who is diabetic, no longer needs his medications (per his doctor).
* My husband's doctor informed him he may be able to come off his BP meds if he keeps it up.
* My husband is biking and loving it! I would have never gotten him to do this a year ago.
* My IBS symptoms have disappeared. I'm not sure which food I eliminated was causing the severe IBS that caused me to get a colonoscopy a year ago, but whatever it is, I'm glad it is gone.
* It isn't always easy, but it works for us.
* I still have to stay near my recommended calorie totals. But, I stay on or around 20 carbs. I've never felt better.10 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
I was a kitchen manager at a fast service restaurant (which had more than 20 locations) while I was in college. We absolutely used a scale while preparing food. Meat and cheese portions were pre-weighed for faster prep, etc. When it came to the employees preparing food on the line, there wasn't much decision making involved and we were often checking the stuff they did get to decide on.
Exactly! This is the reality of what happens in most restaurants every day and most especially in the chains. Where people get this pinch of this, dash of that stuff is beyond me. This is restaurant business management not someone in their kitchen at home or, as johnslater said, the Food Network.11 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
I was a kitchen manager at a fast service restaurant (which had more than 20 locations) while I was in college. We absolutely used a scale while preparing food. Meat and cheese portions were pre-weighed for faster prep, etc. When it came to the employees preparing food on the line, there wasn't much decision making involved and we were often checking the stuff they did get to decide on.
Thanks for the inside information @mmapags
Actually find this a bit fascinating and always discounted the accuracy of calorie estimation at restaurants considering there's a 20% degree of error in laboratory conditions I still imagine this is greater than 20% outside such environment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3719184/
I question the value and impact of such an act - this should be left up to the market. People concerned about this will tend to go to restaurants that post calorie estimation or estimate themselves. Restaurants have the option of drawing in those customers or catering to those who don't. There is no need for government to get involved unless they first want to educate the masses on CICO and calorie counting, otherwise this is a useless measure.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
I was a kitchen manager at a fast service restaurant (which had more than 20 locations) while I was in college. We absolutely used a scale while preparing food. Meat and cheese portions were pre-weighed for faster prep, etc. When it came to the employees preparing food on the line, there wasn't much decision making involved and we were often checking the stuff they did get to decide on.
Thanks for the inside information @mmapags
Actually find this a bit fascinating and always discounted the accuracy of calorie estimation at restaurants considering there's a 20% degree of error in laboratory conditions I still imagine this is greater than 20% outside such environment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3719184/
I question the value and impact of such an act - this should be left up to the market. People concerned about this will tend to go to restaurants that post calorie estimation or estimate themselves. Restaurants have the option of drawing in those customers or catering to those who don't. There is no need for government to get involved unless they first want to educate the masses on CICO and calorie counting, otherwise this is a useless measure.
I'm skeptical it will do much to address obesity. People who want the information will use it. But we're a relatively small part of the population and we're already using common sense to estimate in situations where the information isn't available. Everyone else either doesn't care or doesn't understand how many calories they need.
It's also ignoring the context of the whole day. If I'm not counting calories and I don't understand how many calories are in my home-prepared breakfast and dinner, what good does it do me to know the calorie counts when I'm choosing a sandwich for lunch?
I've heard the argument that some people may get "sticker shock" when seeing the calorie counts for some meals and choose something else. I honestly think this will only apply in situations where an item that is generally considered to be "healthy" has a high calorie count (like 1,000+ calorie salads). If I'm going to Cheesecake Factory with my heart set on a giant platter of pasta, a sweet cocktail, and a piece of cheesecake, I already *know* what I'm doing even if I don't know the exact calorie count. I think for some people, seeing the calorie count in that situation is more likely to make them just throw in the towel and say "Whatever."
If someone isn't actively counting calories, I think knowing they're ordering a 2,000 calorie meal may backfire and make them give up, especially if there aren't appealing lower calorie options on the menu.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
I was a kitchen manager at a fast service restaurant (which had more than 20 locations) while I was in college. We absolutely used a scale while preparing food. Meat and cheese portions were pre-weighed for faster prep, etc. When it came to the employees preparing food on the line, there wasn't much decision making involved and we were often checking the stuff they did get to decide on.
Thanks for the inside information @mmapags
Actually find this a bit fascinating and always discounted the accuracy of calorie estimation at restaurants considering there's a 20% degree of error in laboratory conditions I still imagine this is greater than 20% outside such environment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3719184/
I question the value and impact of such an act - this should be left up to the market. People concerned about this will tend to go to restaurants that post calorie estimation or estimate themselves. Restaurants have the option of drawing in those customers or catering to those who don't. There is no need for government to get involved unless they first want to educate the masses on CICO and calorie counting, otherwise this is a useless measure.
I'm skeptical it will do much to address obesity. People who want the information will use it. But we're a relatively small part of the population and we're already using common sense to estimate in situations where the information isn't available. Everyone else either doesn't care or doesn't understand how many calories they need.
It's also ignoring the context of the whole day. If I'm not counting calories and I don't understand how many calories are in my home-prepared breakfast and dinner, what good does it do me to know the calorie counts when I'm choosing a sandwich for lunch?
I've heard the argument that some people may get "sticker shock" when seeing the calorie counts for some meals and choose something else. I honestly think this will only apply in situations where an item that is generally considered to be "healthy" has a high calorie count (like 1,000+ calorie salads). If I'm going to Cheesecake Factory with my heart set on a giant platter of pasta, a sweet cocktail, and a piece of cheesecake, I already *know* what I'm doing even if I don't know the exact calorie count. I think for some people, seeing the calorie count in that situation is more likely to make them just throw in the towel and say "Whatever."
If someone isn't actively counting calories, I think knowing they're ordering a 2,000 calorie meal may backfire and make them give up, especially if there aren't appealing lower calorie options on the menu.
Precisely - it's only sticker shock if you are already aware of your calorie budget. Without a basic understanding this is useless, further binds already stressed enforcement agencies, and will end up serving no public good.
2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
I was a kitchen manager at a fast service restaurant (which had more than 20 locations) while I was in college. We absolutely used a scale while preparing food. Meat and cheese portions were pre-weighed for faster prep, etc. When it came to the employees preparing food on the line, there wasn't much decision making involved and we were often checking the stuff they did get to decide on.
Thanks for the inside information @mmapags
Actually find this a bit fascinating and always discounted the accuracy of calorie estimation at restaurants considering there's a 20% degree of error in laboratory conditions I still imagine this is greater than 20% outside such environment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3719184/
I question the value and impact of such an act - this should be left up to the market. People concerned about this will tend to go to restaurants that post calorie estimation or estimate themselves. Restaurants have the option of drawing in those customers or catering to those who don't. There is no need for government to get involved unless they first want to educate the masses on CICO and calorie counting, otherwise this is a useless measure.
I'm skeptical it will do much to address obesity. People who want the information will use it. But we're a relatively small part of the population and we're already using common sense to estimate in situations where the information isn't available. Everyone else either doesn't care or doesn't understand how many calories they need.
It's also ignoring the context of the whole day. If I'm not counting calories and I don't understand how many calories are in my home-prepared breakfast and dinner, what good does it do me to know the calorie counts when I'm choosing a sandwich for lunch?
I've heard the argument that some people may get "sticker shock" when seeing the calorie counts for some meals and choose something else. I honestly think this will only apply in situations where an item that is generally considered to be "healthy" has a high calorie count (like 1,000+ calorie salads). If I'm going to Cheesecake Factory with my heart set on a giant platter of pasta, a sweet cocktail, and a piece of cheesecake, I already *know* what I'm doing even if I don't know the exact calorie count. I think for some people, seeing the calorie count in that situation is more likely to make them just throw in the towel and say "Whatever."
If someone isn't actively counting calories, I think knowing they're ordering a 2,000 calorie meal may backfire and make them give up, especially if there aren't appealing lower calorie options on the menu.
Precisely - it's only sticker shock if you are already aware of your calorie budget. Without a basic understanding this is useless, further binds already stressed enforcement agencies, and will end up serving no public good.
Honestly, while I don't think it's that onerous for the chains to provide, I do agree with you that the impact will be limited and it's largely a symbolic gesture. I will say that the marketplace is far more attuned to it at this point and many of these chains would do it now even if they were not required to. So, I may see it as a bit of overregulation. I don't see it as some substantial freedom impingement.
The ground swell for this came before the legislation and now, it is just good marketing. Some customer will avoid chains that don't publish it. Just look around here at the "how do I log this meal from X restaurant that doesn't publish calorie data??" For these reasons, I don't think agressive enforment is necessary. It's a super competitive environment and many of these chains had this data on their websites before the legislation.
BTW, you credited me but quoted janejellyroll. Just an FYI.8 -
1
-
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
I was a kitchen manager at a fast service restaurant (which had more than 20 locations) while I was in college. We absolutely used a scale while preparing food. Meat and cheese portions were pre-weighed for faster prep, etc. When it came to the employees preparing food on the line, there wasn't much decision making involved and we were often checking the stuff they did get to decide on.
Thanks for the inside information @mmapags
Actually find this a bit fascinating and always discounted the accuracy of calorie estimation at restaurants considering there's a 20% degree of error in laboratory conditions I still imagine this is greater than 20% outside such environment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3719184/
I question the value and impact of such an act - this should be left up to the market. People concerned about this will tend to go to restaurants that post calorie estimation or estimate themselves. Restaurants have the option of drawing in those customers or catering to those who don't. There is no need for government to get involved unless they first want to educate the masses on CICO and calorie counting, otherwise this is a useless measure.
I'm skeptical it will do much to address obesity. People who want the information will use it. But we're a relatively small part of the population and we're already using common sense to estimate in situations where the information isn't available. Everyone else either doesn't care or doesn't understand how many calories they need.
It's also ignoring the context of the whole day. If I'm not counting calories and I don't understand how many calories are in my home-prepared breakfast and dinner, what good does it do me to know the calorie counts when I'm choosing a sandwich for lunch?
I've heard the argument that some people may get "sticker shock" when seeing the calorie counts for some meals and choose something else. I honestly think this will only apply in situations where an item that is generally considered to be "healthy" has a high calorie count (like 1,000+ calorie salads). If I'm going to Cheesecake Factory with my heart set on a giant platter of pasta, a sweet cocktail, and a piece of cheesecake, I already *know* what I'm doing even if I don't know the exact calorie count. I think for some people, seeing the calorie count in that situation is more likely to make them just throw in the towel and say "Whatever."
If someone isn't actively counting calories, I think knowing they're ordering a 2,000 calorie meal may backfire and make them give up, especially if there aren't appealing lower calorie options on the menu.
Precisely - it's only sticker shock if you are already aware of your calorie budget. Without a basic understanding this is useless, further binds already stressed enforcement agencies, and will end up serving no public good.
Honestly, while I don't think it's that onerous for the chains to provide, I do agree with you that the impact will be limited and it's largely a symbolic gesture. I will say that the marketplace is far more attuned to it at this point and many of these chains would do it now even if they were not required to. So, I may see it as a bit of overregulation. I don't see it as some substantial freedom impingement.
The ground swell for this came before the legislation and now, it is just good marketing. Some customer will avoid chains that don't publish it. Just look around here at the "how do I log this meal from X restaurant that doesn't publish calorie data??" For these reasons, I don't think agressive enforment is necessary. It's a super competitive environment and many of these chains had this data on their websites before the legislation.
BTW, you credited me but quoted janejellyroll. Just an FYI.
I was trying to recognize both of you for correcting my misinformation from the phone
I don't think it's onerous. I think it's an over-reach of authority with limited capacity for good, but great capacity for corruption. Today it's chains over 20, next year it will be every restaurant and provide yet another hurdle in the path of entrepreneurs in favor of established and larger businesses.
There are so many laws on the books currently that enforcement is impossible. There needs to be a limit. You want a new law, strike an existing one. Any law needs to first prove key points - that it benefits society, that it can be enforced in an equitable manner, that it is just, etc. Symbolic gestures make for poor legislation. If you don't intend on locking someone up or applying punitive fines, then there's no point in legislation.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
I was a kitchen manager at a fast service restaurant (which had more than 20 locations) while I was in college. We absolutely used a scale while preparing food. Meat and cheese portions were pre-weighed for faster prep, etc. When it came to the employees preparing food on the line, there wasn't much decision making involved and we were often checking the stuff they did get to decide on.
Thanks for the inside information @mmapags
Actually find this a bit fascinating and always discounted the accuracy of calorie estimation at restaurants considering there's a 20% degree of error in laboratory conditions I still imagine this is greater than 20% outside such environment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3719184/
I question the value and impact of such an act - this should be left up to the market. People concerned about this will tend to go to restaurants that post calorie estimation or estimate themselves. Restaurants have the option of drawing in those customers or catering to those who don't. There is no need for government to get involved unless they first want to educate the masses on CICO and calorie counting, otherwise this is a useless measure.
I'm skeptical it will do much to address obesity. People who want the information will use it. But we're a relatively small part of the population and we're already using common sense to estimate in situations where the information isn't available. Everyone else either doesn't care or doesn't understand how many calories they need.
It's also ignoring the context of the whole day. If I'm not counting calories and I don't understand how many calories are in my home-prepared breakfast and dinner, what good does it do me to know the calorie counts when I'm choosing a sandwich for lunch?
I've heard the argument that some people may get "sticker shock" when seeing the calorie counts for some meals and choose something else. I honestly think this will only apply in situations where an item that is generally considered to be "healthy" has a high calorie count (like 1,000+ calorie salads). If I'm going to Cheesecake Factory with my heart set on a giant platter of pasta, a sweet cocktail, and a piece of cheesecake, I already *know* what I'm doing even if I don't know the exact calorie count. I think for some people, seeing the calorie count in that situation is more likely to make them just throw in the towel and say "Whatever."
If someone isn't actively counting calories, I think knowing they're ordering a 2,000 calorie meal may backfire and make them give up, especially if there aren't appealing lower calorie options on the menu.
Precisely - it's only sticker shock if you are already aware of your calorie budget. Without a basic understanding this is useless, further binds already stressed enforcement agencies, and will end up serving no public good.
Honestly, while I don't think it's that onerous for the chains to provide, I do agree with you that the impact will be limited and it's largely a symbolic gesture. I will say that the marketplace is far more attuned to it at this point and many of these chains would do it now even if they were not required to. So, I may see it as a bit of overregulation. I don't see it as some substantial freedom impingement.
The ground swell for this came before the legislation and now, it is just good marketing. Some customer will avoid chains that don't publish it. Just look around here at the "how do I log this meal from X restaurant that doesn't publish calorie data??" For these reasons, I don't think agressive enforment is necessary. It's a super competitive environment and many of these chains had this data on their websites before the legislation.
BTW, you credited me but quoted janejellyroll. Just an FYI.
I was trying to recognize both of you for correcting my misinformation from the phone
I don't think it's onerous. I think it's an over-reach of authority with limited capacity for good, but great capacity for corruption. Today it's chains over 20, next year it will be every restaurant and provide yet another hurdle in the path of entrepreneurs in favor of established and larger businesses.
There are so many laws on the books currently that enforcement is impossible. There needs to be a limit. You want a new law, strike an existing one. Any law needs to first prove key points - that it benefits society, that it can be enforced in an equitable manner, that it is just, etc. Symbolic gestures make for poor legislation. If you don't intend on locking someone up or applying punitive fines, then there's no point in legislation.
Gotcha, just wanted to make sure her contribution was recognized as you intended.
I see this situation as mainly kind of a moot point. It doesn't really have much more impact that the marketplace would drive. It's superfluous legislation. But, I also see in the same light as most of the health department regulations, they spot check and attempt to make sure there is compliance but don't really enforce much. On the other hand, no restaurant want a food safety issue to hit the public. Very bad for business.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
I was a kitchen manager at a fast service restaurant (which had more than 20 locations) while I was in college. We absolutely used a scale while preparing food. Meat and cheese portions were pre-weighed for faster prep, etc. When it came to the employees preparing food on the line, there wasn't much decision making involved and we were often checking the stuff they did get to decide on.
Thanks for the inside information @mmapags
Actually find this a bit fascinating and always discounted the accuracy of calorie estimation at restaurants considering there's a 20% degree of error in laboratory conditions I still imagine this is greater than 20% outside such environment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3719184/
I question the value and impact of such an act - this should be left up to the market. People concerned about this will tend to go to restaurants that post calorie estimation or estimate themselves. Restaurants have the option of drawing in those customers or catering to those who don't. There is no need for government to get involved unless they first want to educate the masses on CICO and calorie counting, otherwise this is a useless measure.
I'm skeptical it will do much to address obesity. People who want the information will use it. But we're a relatively small part of the population and we're already using common sense to estimate in situations where the information isn't available. Everyone else either doesn't care or doesn't understand how many calories they need.
It's also ignoring the context of the whole day. If I'm not counting calories and I don't understand how many calories are in my home-prepared breakfast and dinner, what good does it do me to know the calorie counts when I'm choosing a sandwich for lunch?
I've heard the argument that some people may get "sticker shock" when seeing the calorie counts for some meals and choose something else. I honestly think this will only apply in situations where an item that is generally considered to be "healthy" has a high calorie count (like 1,000+ calorie salads). If I'm going to Cheesecake Factory with my heart set on a giant platter of pasta, a sweet cocktail, and a piece of cheesecake, I already *know* what I'm doing even if I don't know the exact calorie count. I think for some people, seeing the calorie count in that situation is more likely to make them just throw in the towel and say "Whatever."
If someone isn't actively counting calories, I think knowing they're ordering a 2,000 calorie meal may backfire and make them give up, especially if there aren't appealing lower calorie options on the menu.
Precisely - it's only sticker shock if you are already aware of your calorie budget. Without a basic understanding this is useless, further binds already stressed enforcement agencies, and will end up serving no public good.
Honestly, while I don't think it's that onerous for the chains to provide, I do agree with you that the impact will be limited and it's largely a symbolic gesture. I will say that the marketplace is far more attuned to it at this point and many of these chains would do it now even if they were not required to. So, I may see it as a bit of overregulation. I don't see it as some substantial freedom impingement.
The ground swell for this came before the legislation and now, it is just good marketing. Some customer will avoid chains that don't publish it. Just look around here at the "how do I log this meal from X restaurant that doesn't publish calorie data??" For these reasons, I don't think agressive enforment is necessary. It's a super competitive environment and many of these chains had this data on their websites before the legislation.
BTW, you credited me but quoted janejellyroll. Just an FYI.
I was trying to recognize both of you for correcting my misinformation from the phone
I don't think it's onerous. I think it's an over-reach of authority with limited capacity for good, but great capacity for corruption. Today it's chains over 20, next year it will be every restaurant and provide yet another hurdle in the path of entrepreneurs in favor of established and larger businesses.
There are so many laws on the books currently that enforcement is impossible. There needs to be a limit. You want a new law, strike an existing one. Any law needs to first prove key points - that it benefits society, that it can be enforced in an equitable manner, that it is just, etc. Symbolic gestures make for poor legislation. If you don't intend on locking someone up or applying punitive fines, then there's no point in legislation.
Gotcha, just wanted to make sure her contribution was recognized as you intended.
I see this situation as mainly kind of a moot point. It doesn't really have much more impact that the marketplace would drive. It's superfluous legislation. But, I also see in the same light as most of the health department regulations, they spot check and attempt to make sure there is compliance but don't really enforce much. On the other hand, no restaurant want a food safety issue to hit the public. Very bad for business.
I would agree and don't see the need to act on moot points. There are higher priority problems to address than this.
This differs distinctly from health inspections as improper food handling and service can easily end up in disease and death, so there is a logical basis behind such standards and regulations.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
I was a kitchen manager at a fast service restaurant (which had more than 20 locations) while I was in college. We absolutely used a scale while preparing food. Meat and cheese portions were pre-weighed for faster prep, etc. When it came to the employees preparing food on the line, there wasn't much decision making involved and we were often checking the stuff they did get to decide on.
Thanks for the inside information @mmapags
Actually find this a bit fascinating and always discounted the accuracy of calorie estimation at restaurants considering there's a 20% degree of error in laboratory conditions I still imagine this is greater than 20% outside such environment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3719184/
I question the value and impact of such an act - this should be left up to the market. People concerned about this will tend to go to restaurants that post calorie estimation or estimate themselves. Restaurants have the option of drawing in those customers or catering to those who don't. There is no need for government to get involved unless they first want to educate the masses on CICO and calorie counting, otherwise this is a useless measure.
I'm skeptical it will do much to address obesity. People who want the information will use it. But we're a relatively small part of the population and we're already using common sense to estimate in situations where the information isn't available. Everyone else either doesn't care or doesn't understand how many calories they need.
It's also ignoring the context of the whole day. If I'm not counting calories and I don't understand how many calories are in my home-prepared breakfast and dinner, what good does it do me to know the calorie counts when I'm choosing a sandwich for lunch?
I've heard the argument that some people may get "sticker shock" when seeing the calorie counts for some meals and choose something else. I honestly think this will only apply in situations where an item that is generally considered to be "healthy" has a high calorie count (like 1,000+ calorie salads). If I'm going to Cheesecake Factory with my heart set on a giant platter of pasta, a sweet cocktail, and a piece of cheesecake, I already *know* what I'm doing even if I don't know the exact calorie count. I think for some people, seeing the calorie count in that situation is more likely to make them just throw in the towel and say "Whatever."
If someone isn't actively counting calories, I think knowing they're ordering a 2,000 calorie meal may backfire and make them give up, especially if there aren't appealing lower calorie options on the menu.
Precisely - it's only sticker shock if you are already aware of your calorie budget. Without a basic understanding this is useless, further binds already stressed enforcement agencies, and will end up serving no public good.
Honestly, while I don't think it's that onerous for the chains to provide, I do agree with you that the impact will be limited and it's largely a symbolic gesture. I will say that the marketplace is far more attuned to it at this point and many of these chains would do it now even if they were not required to. So, I may see it as a bit of overregulation. I don't see it as some substantial freedom impingement.
The ground swell for this came before the legislation and now, it is just good marketing. Some customer will avoid chains that don't publish it. Just look around here at the "how do I log this meal from X restaurant that doesn't publish calorie data??" For these reasons, I don't think agressive enforment is necessary. It's a super competitive environment and many of these chains had this data on their websites before the legislation.
BTW, you credited me but quoted janejellyroll. Just an FYI.
I was trying to recognize both of you for correcting my misinformation from the phone
I don't think it's onerous. I think it's an over-reach of authority with limited capacity for good, but great capacity for corruption. Today it's chains over 20, next year it will be every restaurant and provide yet another hurdle in the path of entrepreneurs in favor of established and larger businesses.
There are so many laws on the books currently that enforcement is impossible. There needs to be a limit. You want a new law, strike an existing one. Any law needs to first prove key points - that it benefits society, that it can be enforced in an equitable manner, that it is just, etc. Symbolic gestures make for poor legislation. If you don't intend on locking someone up or applying punitive fines, then there's no point in legislation.
Gotcha, just wanted to make sure her contribution was recognized as you intended.
I see this situation as mainly kind of a moot point. It doesn't really have much more impact that the marketplace would drive. It's superfluous legislation. But, I also see in the same light as most of the health department regulations, they spot check and attempt to make sure there is compliance but don't really enforce much. On the other hand, no restaurant want a food safety issue to hit the public. Very bad for business.
I would agree and don't see the need to act on moot points. There are higher priority problems to address than this.
This differs distinctly from health inspections as improper food handling and service can easily end up in disease and death, so there is a logical basis behind such standards and regulations.
True. But the enforcement is not greater. I mean it's a once maybe twice a year inspection. but, we are in agreement that there are more important things than calorie counts on menus that should be addressed. It was just a political move to capitalize on a sentiment for popularity. That being said, I don't see it as much of "freedom" thing. More just kind of silly posturing really.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »LouisTamsi wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
What changed in the last few weeks?
Sorry I'm late replying, a part of Obamacare went into effect that makes restaurants with more than 10 locations post calorie counts for their menu items.
I love this so much. So much easier to make better choices.
I really don't understand why people fought this so hard. It's only large chains, and doesn't cost much for them to put the recipes in a calorie calculator.
The restaurants don't want you to know how calorific their foods are, that I understand. But why do consumers oppose it?
Just want businesses to have the choice if they want to publish or not. None are forced to go to a restaurant, so if consumers wanted it, they would choose restaurants who publish.
A government that has the power to force someone else to do something has the power to force you to do something.
As a lover of freedom, I detest the idea that a restaurant owner would lose a bit of freedom by having the government force them to publish.
If the market signals that consumers want this, that is one thing. If government mandates it, that is antithetical to freedom and goes counter to the premise America was founded on, freedom.
We all sacrifice a little freedom for the greater good of the many. It's the fundamental concept of societies.
I have no issues with chains larger than 20 meeting this requirement. It helps the many and full disclosure is never a bad thing. At that size, it is not an onerous requirement. Bear in mind that many of the health regulations that keep restaurants save also cause a "restaurant owner to lose a bit of freedom". Would you do away with that also?
What freedom is sacrificed for the greater good of the many? If this is taken by force then it isn't freedom.
This is the definition of theft and oppression.
Gimme a break. That whole line of reasoning is absurd. Name one societal regulation or law that someone doesn't see as being by force. We have a representative government structure that we elect to make laws and regulations for the common good. Some like it some don't. Some of those laws and regulations change and some don't.
What is exactly taken by force here? That larger chains should have to disclose their calories and nutrients in their recipes? They already have this info. It's the basis of their business model. A system of recipes and business practices that can be replicated. They know what is in every dish and what the amounts are, within a reasonable margin of error. They sell franchises or operate company stores on the basis of that tested system and if an operator. Their 2 biggest controllable variable are food cost and labor.
So, they have the info. It's just a matter of sharing it for the good of the consumer, who is part of society as a whole. I've also seen comments here about the inaccuracy of portions in chain restaurants. I think Arby's was mentioned. Just so happens I worked with a person who was previously a long time compliance and training person for Arby's. They preslice, pre portion and measure every item. If they are not getting the expected yield from a certain prep station, the trainer or manager will dig in and work at that station with every shift there until they figure out where the problem is. It's key to their staying in business and being profitable. And this is the same in all chains. They have operating guides complete with portion measurements and in many instances pictures.
To share this info for the good of consumers is not giving up any great freedom. To call it theft and oppression when referring to a restaurant chain of 20 or more is absurd.
For context: I was never a chef in a chain. But at one point sold a restaurant management technology to chains. This was prior to these regulations from the early 2000s in the Obama era. My customers included, Texas Roadhouse, Applebee's, Friday's, Chili's, Outback and the Darden Restaurants, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones and Red Lobster. They all new their portions, nutritional info and processed down to the penny!
No freedom sacrificed ever ends up as public good.
Can you cite one example to the contrary?
I have no experience in the food industry, but a great deal in regulatory and law enforcement. My concern with such laws and regulation are enforcement. How do you enforce such a law? What happens to those who break the law? What happens when the calories I post are proven wrong?
As a chef do you measure precisely with a scale?
My point is that this is quesswork at best. Chefs don't use food scales, but handfuls, pinches, etc. So that 800 calories posted is actually a best guess range from 700-1000 kcals. So what's the point?
This would be like enforcing speed limits where every speedometer holds an inherent 20% degree of error.
I was a kitchen manager at a fast service restaurant (which had more than 20 locations) while I was in college. We absolutely used a scale while preparing food. Meat and cheese portions were pre-weighed for faster prep, etc. When it came to the employees preparing food on the line, there wasn't much decision making involved and we were often checking the stuff they did get to decide on.
Thanks for the inside information @mmapags
Actually find this a bit fascinating and always discounted the accuracy of calorie estimation at restaurants considering there's a 20% degree of error in laboratory conditions I still imagine this is greater than 20% outside such environment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3719184/
I question the value and impact of such an act - this should be left up to the market. People concerned about this will tend to go to restaurants that post calorie estimation or estimate themselves. Restaurants have the option of drawing in those customers or catering to those who don't. There is no need for government to get involved unless they first want to educate the masses on CICO and calorie counting, otherwise this is a useless measure.
I'm skeptical it will do much to address obesity. People who want the information will use it. But we're a relatively small part of the population and we're already using common sense to estimate in situations where the information isn't available. Everyone else either doesn't care or doesn't understand how many calories they need.
It's also ignoring the context of the whole day. If I'm not counting calories and I don't understand how many calories are in my home-prepared breakfast and dinner, what good does it do me to know the calorie counts when I'm choosing a sandwich for lunch?
I've heard the argument that some people may get "sticker shock" when seeing the calorie counts for some meals and choose something else. I honestly think this will only apply in situations where an item that is generally considered to be "healthy" has a high calorie count (like 1,000+ calorie salads). If I'm going to Cheesecake Factory with my heart set on a giant platter of pasta, a sweet cocktail, and a piece of cheesecake, I already *know* what I'm doing even if I don't know the exact calorie count. I think for some people, seeing the calorie count in that situation is more likely to make them just throw in the towel and say "Whatever."
If someone isn't actively counting calories, I think knowing they're ordering a 2,000 calorie meal may backfire and make them give up, especially if there aren't appealing lower calorie options on the menu.
Precisely - it's only sticker shock if you are already aware of your calorie budget. Without a basic understanding this is useless, further binds already stressed enforcement agencies, and will end up serving no public good.
Honestly, while I don't think it's that onerous for the chains to provide, I do agree with you that the impact will be limited and it's largely a symbolic gesture. I will say that the marketplace is far more attuned to it at this point and many of these chains would do it now even if they were not required to. So, I may see it as a bit of overregulation. I don't see it as some substantial freedom impingement.
The ground swell for this came before the legislation and now, it is just good marketing. Some customer will avoid chains that don't publish it. Just look around here at the "how do I log this meal from X restaurant that doesn't publish calorie data??" For these reasons, I don't think agressive enforment is necessary. It's a super competitive environment and many of these chains had this data on their websites before the legislation.
BTW, you credited me but quoted janejellyroll. Just an FYI.
I was trying to recognize both of you for correcting my misinformation from the phone
I don't think it's onerous. I think it's an over-reach of authority with limited capacity for good, but great capacity for corruption. Today it's chains over 20, next year it will be every restaurant and provide yet another hurdle in the path of entrepreneurs in favor of established and larger businesses.
There are so many laws on the books currently that enforcement is impossible. There needs to be a limit. You want a new law, strike an existing one. Any law needs to first prove key points - that it benefits society, that it can be enforced in an equitable manner, that it is just, etc. Symbolic gestures make for poor legislation. If you don't intend on locking someone up or applying punitive fines, then there's no point in legislation.
Gotcha, just wanted to make sure her contribution was recognized as you intended.
I see this situation as mainly kind of a moot point. It doesn't really have much more impact that the marketplace would drive. It's superfluous legislation. But, I also see in the same light as most of the health department regulations, they spot check and attempt to make sure there is compliance but don't really enforce much. On the other hand, no restaurant want a food safety issue to hit the public. Very bad for business.
I would agree and don't see the need to act on moot points. There are higher priority problems to address than this.
This differs distinctly from health inspections as improper food handling and service can easily end up in disease and death, so there is a logical basis behind such standards and regulations.
True. But the enforcement is not greater. I mean it's a once maybe twice a year inspection. but, we are in agreement that there are more important things than calorie counts on menus that should be addressed. It was just a political move to capitalize on a sentiment for popularity. That being said, I don't see it as much of "freedom" thing. More just kind of silly posturing really.
I agree, but I speak from first principles. I fundamentally disagree with the notion that freedom sacrificed for societal good ever ends up doing good for society.
Now if freedom is exchanged by mutual agreement....that's an entirely different issue and generally works out rather well.1 -
I agree, but I speak from first principles. I fundamentally disagree with the notion that freedom sacrificed for societal good ever ends up doing good for society.
Now if freedom is exchanged by mutual agreement....that's an entirely different issue and generally works out rather well.
As long as their as a requirement for positive consent.
I.E. just because my grandparents voted for Social Security doesn't mean I gave up the freedom to decide if I want to be a part of it or not.
That's my problem with many of these so-called "for the greater good" ideas. We cannot say no to them if they are not for our individual greater good.
If you want to have Social Security, or the ACA or whatever, I'd never deny you the right to VOLUNTARILY participate in such a program.
However, to deny people the right to say no, I do not wish to participate is for that person to lose freedom. Being taxed to fund it is a form of participation. I'd never deny someone the right to contribute. However, non-beneficiaries should have the same right to say no, do not take from me to fund this program for others.
If I choose to not drive on public roads, there is no requirement for me to obtain car insurance. (Likewise, most states really have a fiscal responsibility law, so some can self-insure if they have sufficient assets.)
I can build on my property and race cars of any standard I choose on my private property. I can hire others to drive me and so on. There is no law that says I must have auto insurance simply because I ride in a car.
Anyway, enough of this threadjack
15 -
Why do these long debate threads always devolve into a debate about the proper role of government in public life?6
-
happytree923 wrote: »Why do these long debate threads always devolve into a debate about the proper role of government in public life?
Because this is one of the primary root causes of many problems.10
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.7K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 394 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.3K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 941 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions