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Can you gain fat while in ketosis?
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Posts: 1,900 MFP Staff
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This discussion was created from replies split from: RUNNING FAT ADAPTED.
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Maybe I can help Johna,
Odds are you are not fat adapted. Especially if you are uncertain about your macros and ketone readings to be sure. I will explain why I feel this way.
For starters, gaining 5 pounds when in ketosis is extremely rare. The hormone insulin is a regulatory hormone for many events in the body, primarily glucose balance within the blood. Once your body hits ketosis this confirms your body is fueled off primarily (not completely) ketones. Unless you consume an excess amounts of carbohydrates and/or sugars you do not produce enough insulin to allow you to store fat and even gain muscle. Insulin is the gate keeper to open the bodies cells to allow storage within them at the cellular level. This does not happen at a noticeable level. Understand that proteins and amino acids and such need to get within the cell to promote muscle growth. It is a must. This is why insulin is abused in the body building world. Insulin injections and steroids makes for massive results but obviously dangerous. Another thing that insulin assists with and helps regulate is water retention within the renal system (kidneys).
Insulin production will retain fluid and the lack of insulin you will excrete. This is why it is at an utmost importance to hydrate and take electrolytes such as sodium, potassium and magnesium. Therefore, I do not feel you have gain muscle and or water if you truly feel you are fat adapted. Although this is in a nut shell I hope this helps.
Are you suggesting that if she is eating 4000 calories in fat, she won't gain weight because low/no insulin response?16 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »if you are gaining weight its either water retention from extra exercise,fat or a combo of the 2. if you gain weight and its not water retention its likely to excess calories. even in keto you can gain weight if you eat more calories than you burn. doesnt matter if its excess carbs(which could be water weight(and glycogen) due to eating excess carbs,or excess fats. any macro can lead to weight gain if eaten in excess
Not sure if I am getting your point, so please forgive me... but if you are taking excess carbs you are not in ketosis and yes you will gain weight by why of water retention that part I agree. With the major focus point being “not in Ketosis”. Secondly, if you maintain a 75F/20P/5C macros which is a true ketogenic macro Regimen (not to be confused with a more strict regimen known a therapeutic for medical treatments such as epilepsy) you will find it almost impossible to gain weight and/or water. Now, to lose weight calories are a factor. As the more exogenous fats you consume the less likely the body will breakdown it’s own fat for fuel as there will be no need. Just because one is in Ketosis he/she does not guarantee fat burn if the body is being supplied an amount greater than it needs to fuel it. So, I am sure you are now asking, why will you not gain weight if you have consumed to much? Again, if you are truly following the macros as described above your body will not produce enough insulin to open the cells for storage of fats, proteins, amino acid and nutrients at a noticeable level. (Hence the keto phrases fat burning mode and fat storing mode) you produce insulin you store. It will happen at a low low low degree as your body can and will compensate and convert proteins and or (later down the road) muscle into usable glucose to allow survivable cellular reproduction and some brain function. This information can be found in many Endocrinology books as this has been know for quite some time. It Baffles me how the nutrition and medicine varies with what is know and what is practices. Under the above macros I myself can maintain a daily body weight between 173-176 on 2500-3500 calories daily. Keeping in mind I am 5’11. That is a lot of calories and I gain nothing. At least not until I break my eating regime and eat a boat load of carbs and I gain weight (mostly water) super fast. But this would be over days of poor consumption. I am sure with a little observation you can see that the majority of people do not stay within the boundaries of the macros required to be in Ketosis. The average person does not log foods and test blood for validation. It requires complete commitment and most do not have this level of commitment and they fail. Sometimes unknowingly a person eats more carbs than they think they are just because they think that they are eating healthy with fruits and vegetables but they eat them in excess. Anyway, not trying to dispute your logic but I think there are SO MANY variables involved to why people are not doing well with the Keto diet. Thanks for reading and posting.34 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »Maybe I can help Johna,
Odds are you are not fat adapted. Especially if you are uncertain about your macros and ketone readings to be sure. I will explain why I feel this way.
For starters, gaining 5 pounds when in ketosis is extremely rare. The hormone insulin is a regulatory hormone for many events in the body, primarily glucose balance within the blood. Once your body hits ketosis this confirms your body is fueled off primarily (not completely) ketones. Unless you consume an excess amounts of carbohydrates and/or sugars you do not produce enough insulin to allow you to store fat and even gain muscle. Insulin is the gate keeper to open the bodies cells to allow storage within them at the cellular level. This does not happen at a noticeable level. Understand that proteins and amino acids and such need to get within the cell to promote muscle growth. It is a must. This is why insulin is abused in the body building world. Insulin injections and steroids makes for massive results but obviously dangerous. Another thing that insulin assists with and helps regulate is water retention within the renal system (kidneys).
Insulin production will retain fluid and the lack of insulin you will excrete. This is why it is at an utmost importance to hydrate and take electrolytes such as sodium, potassium and magnesium. Therefore, I do not feel you have gain muscle and or water if you truly feel you are fat adapted. Although this is in a nut shell I hope this helps.
Are you suggesting that if she is eating 4000 calories in fat, she won't gain weight because low/no insulin response?nutmegoreo wrote: »Maybe I can help Johna,
Odds are you are not fat adapted. Especially if you are uncertain about your macros and ketone readings to be sure. I will explain why I feel this way.
For starters, gaining 5 pounds when in ketosis is extremely rare. The hormone insulin is a regulatory hormone for many events in the body, primarily glucose balance within the blood. Once your body hits ketosis this confirms your body is fueled off primarily (not completely) ketones. Unless you consume an excess amounts of carbohydrates and/or sugars you do not produce enough insulin to allow you to store fat and even gain muscle. Insulin is the gate keeper to open the bodies cells to allow storage within them at the cellular level. This does not happen at a noticeable level. Understand that proteins and amino acids and such need to get within the cell to promote muscle growth. It is a must. This is why insulin is abused in the body building world. Insulin injections and steroids makes for massive results but obviously dangerous. Another thing that insulin assists with and helps regulate is water retention within the renal system (kidneys).
Insulin production will retain fluid and the lack of insulin you will excrete. This is why it is at an utmost importance to hydrate and take electrolytes such as sodium, potassium and magnesium. Therefore, I do not feel you have gain muscle and or water if you truly feel you are fat adapted. Although this is in a nut shell I hope this helps.
Are you suggesting that if she is eating 4000 calories in fat, she won't gain weight because low/no insulin response?
No not at all. What I am saying is she most likely is not fat adapted (burning ketones for fuel efficiently) meaning she does not keep a consistent state of ketosis. One can not bounce in and out of ketosis and expect to have results. Unless you monitor your daily intake and blood ketones (not urine sticks or respiratory meter) as those are more of a by products ketones of beta-hydroxybutyrate which can only be measured in the blood. As a practitioner of the keto diet for more than a year and I study this diet non-stop searching for new data, even I find it difficult from time to time to stay between the lines. So I am sure the average practitioner who does not monitor them self’s or half heartedly try will not be in true ketosis. Let’s be honest, many people will not admit they cheat on their diets. Sneaking in a bite of bread here and drinking that sugar containing drink there, not to mention Alcohol stops ketone production as the liver will clean that poison of alcohol first and hold on producing ketones. Now, forgive me if the originator of this post logs her foods and test her blood routinely and without a shadow of a doubt follows the strict dietary regime as required. As this was not mentioned in the original post. Then I have no answer to a 5 pound weight gain. This is out side the norm for this diet. Plus, as mentioned earlier by another post, gaining that much weight of muscle is difficult indeed. Only she will know for sure.28 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »if you are gaining weight its either water retention from extra exercise,fat or a combo of the 2. if you gain weight and its not water retention its likely to excess calories. even in keto you can gain weight if you eat more calories than you burn. doesnt matter if its excess carbs(which could be water weight(and glycogen) due to eating excess carbs,or excess fats. any macro can lead to weight gain if eaten in excess
Not sure if I am getting your point, so please forgive me... but if you are taking excess carbs you are not in ketosis and yes you will gain weight by why of water retention that part I agree. With the major focus point being “not in Ketosis”. Secondly, if you maintain a 75F/20P/5C macros which is a true ketogenic macro Regimen (not to be confused with a more strict regimen known a therapeutic for medical treatments such as epilepsy) you will find it almost impossible to gain weight and/or water. Now, to lose weight calories are a factor. As the more exogenous fats you consume the less likely the body will breakdown it’s own fat for fuel as there will be no need. Just because one is in Ketosis he/she does not guarantee fat burn if the body is being supplied an amount greater than it needs to fuel it. So, I am sure you are now asking, why will you not gain weight if you have consumed to much? Again, if you are truly following the macros as described above your body will not produce enough insulin to open the cells for storage of fats, proteins, amino acid and nutrients at a noticeable level. (Hence the keto phrases fat burning mode and fat storing mode) you produce insulin you store. It will happen at a low low low degree as your body can and will compensate and convert proteins and or (later down the road) muscle into usable glucose to allow survivable cellular reproduction and some brain function. This information can be found in many Endocrinology books as this has been know for quite some time. It Baffles me how the nutrition and medicine varies with what is know and what is practices. Under the above macros I myself can maintain a daily body weight between 173-176 on 2500-3500 calories daily. Keeping in mind I am 5’11. That is a lot of calories and I gain nothing. At least not until I break my eating regime and eat a boat load of carbs and I gain weight (mostly water) super fast. But this would be over days of poor consumption. I am sure with a little observation you can see that the majority of people do not stay within the boundaries of the macros required to be in Ketosis. The average person does not log foods and test blood for validation. It requires complete commitment and most do not have this level of commitment and they fail. Sometimes unknowingly a person eats more carbs than they think they are just because they think that they are eating healthy with fruits and vegetables but they eat them in excess. Anyway, not trying to dispute your logic but I think there are SO MANY variables involved to why people are not doing well with the Keto diet. Thanks for reading and posting.
I am saying that you gain weight eating more than your body burns keto or not. keto is NOT a special body fat burning diet you burn DIETARY FAT. you also dont store fat in a deficit of calories. I eat a crap load of carbs and lost a lot of weight and fat because I was in a deficit. I also did keto for a short time and didnt lose weight or fat any faster compared as to other ways of eating. I am eating a moderate carb,a cedent amount of protein and low fat because of a health issue and losing fat with NO problems. Im not doing keto. Im maintaining my weight right now because Im eating maintenance calories. not because Im eating more carbs. if you are maintaining your weight its because you are eating your maintenance calories if you were to drop calories you would lose. fat is lost in a deficit no matter what way of eating you did. by your explanation eating the way I do I would not have lost fat or weight because I eat more than 150g of carbs a day and low fat(less than 60g a day)
you an still gain weight in keto which was my point. just like with any other diet you can gain if you eat too much of anything. doesnt matter the macro. if you eat too much protein and it puts you over maintenance calories you will gain weight. same with fat. so if OP gained 5 lbs its either water retention fue to one varying factor or another or shes eating more calories than she is burning. as for when I was in ketosis I knew I was in ketosis because I had the bad breath and the odd smelling sweat. and I was in ketosis on more than 50g a day surprisingly15 -
Ok again sorry but you make no sense to me! Have you dived into any research studies or current endocrinology books on the medical shelfs at the top universities in the country and read anything on how the cells of the body use and metabolize nutrients? Plus how the hormones function within the body? Let me take a step back, How well did you perform the "Keto Diet"? Did you take into account all your macros ingested (not guessing) which includes most sweetness? Just because it says no sugar does not mean it will not spike insulin production. The current and only to date sweeteners (with minimal studies available) that do not spike insulin is Stevia/Truvia and this is still in debate. All others can cause a temporary insulin spike. Plus, did you monitor your Ketones via blood meter to verify you are actively burning fat or not? If a half hearted approach was given then assuming the keto diet did not work that well for you is speculation not fact. Maybe the participant was not adhering to the protocols required for success on this diet. Listen, I am not knocking you in a negative. It is awesome you have found an approach that works for you. There are many ways to skin a cat they say.
I would love to go into deeper detail regarding what insulin does at the micro level and how the cells are dependent on this hormone than most would imagine but that would take hours and pages upon pages of text. I assure you if you manage your macros accordingly and keep max grams of carbs 50g or less you will not gain fat on keto. Although in extreme why do you suspect a type 1 diabetic cannot and will not gain weight regardless of the dietary intake and the amount? No insulin production. Not until they get a pump do they regulate themselves with insulin and maintain a better body weight. But it still remains hard for many.
Anyway, I hope not to piss you off as this is not my intent. I spent the past year digging and reading research articles and printed medical books on the bodies organs, hormones and functions pertaining to this diet and I am fully on board. Also, (not that it matters at the end of the day) I have been a Nurse for 26 years most in Critical Care and Cardiology. I have been traveling for the past 5+ years and have had the privilege to have access to data and libraries at some of the best teaching facilities. Not to mention the Doctors especially in the field of Endocrinology. I am not giving you info I gained from the Youtube MD, Facebook MD and instagram MD. Although there are a lot of great resources found there but the majority are just trying to get followers and recognition.
Best of luck with your journey!
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I assure you if you manage your macros accordingly and keep max grams of carbs 50g or less you will not gain fat on keto.
Would you be able to provide links to peer reviewed research that shows that limiting carbs to this number prevents fat gain regardless of calories? There are a lot of science and research pros on these boards, and since what you are suggesting runs counter to common understanding of energy balance, it would be great if you could point us in the direction of any sort of proof that that is the case.
And if carb level determines fat storage, what does the body do with all the calories of energy that aren't needed but aren't being stored as fat?
I would hate to see OP led to believe something without some kind of science to back it up.17 -
Ok again sorry but you make no sense to me! Have you dived into any research studies or current endocrinology books on the medical shelfs at the top universities in the country and read anything on how the cells of the body use and metabolize nutrients? Plus how the hormones function within the body? Let me take a step back, How well did you perform the "Keto Diet"? Did you take into account all your macros ingested (not guessing) which includes most sweetness? Just because it says no sugar does not mean it will not spike insulin production. The current and only to date sweeteners (with minimal studies available) that do not spike insulin is Stevia/Truvia and this is still in debate. All others can cause a temporary insulin spike. Plus, did you monitor your Ketones via blood meter to verify you are actively burning fat or not? If a half hearted approach was given then assuming the keto diet did not work that well for you is speculation not fact. Maybe the participant was not adhering to the protocols required for success on this diet. Listen, I am not knocking you in a negative. It is awesome you have found an approach that works for you. There are many ways to skin a cat they say.
I would love to go into deeper detail regarding what insulin does at the micro level and how the cells are dependent on this hormone than most would imagine but that would take hours and pages upon pages of text. I assure you if you manage your macros accordingly and keep max grams of carbs 50g or less you will not gain fat on keto. Although in extreme why do you suspect a type 1 diabetic cannot and will not gain weight regardless of the dietary intake and the amount? No insulin production. Not until they get a pump do they regulate themselves with insulin and maintain a better body weight. But it still remains hard for many.
Anyway, I hope not to piss you off as this is not my intent. I spent the past year digging and reading research articles and printed medical books on the bodies organs, hormones and functions pertaining to this diet and I am fully on board. Also, (not that it matters at the end of the day) I have been a Nurse for 26 years most in Critical Care and Cardiology. I have been traveling for the past 5+ years and have had the privilege to have access to data and libraries at some of the best teaching facilities. Not to mention the Doctors especially in the field of Endocrinology. I am not giving you info I gained from the Youtube MD, Facebook MD and instagram MD. Although there are a lot of great resources found there but the majority are just trying to get followers and recognition.
Best of luck with your journey!
oh yes ,I weigh everything to the gram and make sure i have the proper entries as well. I knew how to do keto and was doing it properly. I did not have to monitor my ketones as I knew I was in ketosis due to my breath and sweat which not everyone gets,I did. I stopped doing it after 2 months in(I was losing fat and weight but at the same rate as other diets. it didnt work for me because I have a genetic defect that prevents my body from properly processesing fats and cholesterol and keto was making me deathly sick. my daughter sees an endocrinologist for her thyroid issue(she doesnt have IR ,shes not pre diabetic or even diabetic and her endo said that while keto is good for people that have those issues that its not the answer for everything when it comes to weight loss. I know I burn fat because my clothes fit looser and I can see the visible results. I dont do keto like I said because of my health issue in which high amounts of fat even healthy fats will cause a decline in my health. I didnt gain weight doing any dieting because I was in a deficit each time. still lost weight and fat. there are studies that have been posted here on MFP that prove that keto is not any better than any other diet out there for fat and weight loss. and those are scientific peer reviewed sources at that.6 -
I assure you if you manage your macros accordingly and keep max grams of carbs 50g or less you will not gain fat on keto.
Would you be able to provide links to peer reviewed research that shows that limiting carbs to this number prevents fat gain regardless of calories? There are a lot of science and research pros on these boards, and since what you are suggesting runs counter to common understanding of energy balance, it would be great if you could point us in the direction of any sort of proof that that is the case.
And if carb level determines fat storage, what does the body do with all the calories of energy that aren't needed but aren't being stored as fat?
I would hate to see OP led to believe something without some kind of science to back it up.
if carb level determined fat storage I would have never lost fat or weight and wouldnt continue to lose fat maintaining my weight(recomp)3 -
Ok, Let me clarify what you are asking. Peer review research? Peers who have done studies themselves? By definition peers are people of our common interest of comparable study and knowledge. I know more than the average Keto practitioner but this does not mean I can perform a research study to give concrete non-disputable data and secondly, not have a bias on the study rather it be in a pro or con angle in the final results. Or are you asking for professional studies and research done by qualified people in the Nutritional and Medical arena who can perform appropriate studies and analysis regarding the topic? 95% of any free research data will be in short form and focuses on mostly medical treatments and therapy such as epilepsy, cancers, alzhimers, cholesterol panels and diabetes just to name a few. Plus, most research done in the past 5 years you will find strictly pertaining to Ketogenic diet (which are few) regarding weight loss can only be found on paid websites or Doctor/Fellow/Intern accessible sites only and within the institutes who performed the studies. Keep in mind weight loss is a billion dollar industry and studies and research will not be found for free. Now with that said, it would take me hours and possible days (of my spare time) to retrieve any data I read in leisure at the institute at where they were found (some I have already left as I am a traveling medical professional). At most hospitals I had to use a Doctors/Fellows ID and password to even log into these websites available.
So, lets take a logical approach of thought.
You start a keto diet. As I am sure you are aware is a 70F/25P/5C some would say 75F/20P/5C approach. But either way 5% of your diet is by way of carbs.
You decide to go on a 1500 calorie diet, which is fine as this can expedite weight loss due to caloric deficit.
This puts you at 1050 cals coming from fats (70%), 300 cals by way of protein (20%), and 75 cals coming from Carbs (5%). this equates to 18.75g carbs (75cal/4g per carb). So, taking this 1500 calorie diet you essentially maxed out your daily carb intake based on this 20g a day approach. Again, I am not disputing that this appoarch won't work because it will, in most cases at a rapid rate (given you stay in this guideline).
Now, lets take those who choose to stay in the guide lines of the 70/25/5 approach like I did for a year. I consumed 2500-3500 calories a day. But we will address just 2000 of those calories, which is not a lot given fat is 9 calories per gram. 1400 (155g) calories fat, 400 cal protein (100g), and 100 cal carbs (25g). This exceeds your theory. So no one can eat more than 1600 (20g carbs) calories a day unless of coarse they drop the daily percentage of carbs. Which causes them to eat less than 5% carbs, which is amazingly difficult even if you only ate things with trace carbs like avocados (which has an average of 5g carbs pending size) and low glycemic index veggies and fruits. But basically you would have to even cut back on much of these items.
Plus, again use logic regarding putting everyone in the same box. Why? Because 50g a day is nothing for a moderately active person. I am talking about the person who hits cardio for 30 min 3-4 days a week only. Then there is the super active person who hits the weights 30-60 min 4-5 days a week and does some level of cardio 4-5 days a week and some even more. You think 50g is an issue to stay in Ketosis for these people? There should be an * placed next to the 20g max for only those performing the diet alone with no other activities. This I fully agree with regarding max 20g carb intake and 1600 calorie a day diet.
Weight loss should be enjoyable not starving and depravation to the point of being uncomfortable.
Again, I have practiced this diet for over a year. I have made an amazing transformation following the macros only and keeping the carbs 50g or less (Just in case I did not mention does includes fiber, not Net carbs).
I went from 209 down to 173.8 and drop down to 12% body fat. And yes, I ate between 2500-3500 calories a day. But I also work out 5-6 days a week.
Take it as you will, but I mean no aggression or argument here, just like to see the information be more in line of reality and fact versus putting everyone in the same small box.
Wish you all the best in your journey27 -
Also, regarding the storage of fat not used, please just go and read medical information on how the hormone insulin works. This is readally available on line as this is decade old indisputable data.19
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Also, regarding the storage of fat not used, please just go and read medical information on how the hormone insulin works. This is readally available on line as this is decade old indisputable data.
You're absolutely 100% correct. And here is part one of a seven-part research review series on insulin which debunks a lot of the BS surrounding it, courtesy of James Krieger: https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Another research review by Dr. Brad Dieter, PhD, regarding whether carbs/insulin control body fat: http://sciencedrivennutrition.com/do-carbohydrates-control-body-fat/
On the Journal of the American Medical Association's website, research review by Dr. Kevin Hall, PhD, regarding the carbohydrate/insulin theory of obesity: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2686143
Another rebuttal to the carbohydrate/insulin theory of obesity, based upon prior studies of the ketogenic diet: https://www.myoleanfitness.com/ketogenic-diet-40-years-ago/
But we're beginning to wander afield from the original topic, which is fat-adapted running. If this discussion is to continue, it would probably be best to go to the Debate section and open (yet another) thread debating the pros and cons and scientific facts of ketogenic dieting....as if that topic hasn't been hashed out there a million times before.19 -
Charlie, you said enough when you stated you just knew you were in ketosis due to your breath and sweat. Just a tid bit those are not the primary ketones as they are by products of the primary ketone Beta-hydroxbutyrate. If you assume your breath is fruity and your sweat smells the same this does have "indication" of the presence of beta-hydroxbutrate given they are its by product but the degree or level of thie ketone can only be measured by way of a blood meter. you can register a 0.2-0.4 and not be in ketosis by definition but have the by products as you do have some ketone production. This not a guessing diet. But I do wish you the best as this does not seem to be the diet of choice for you regardless. signing off this conversation13
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Wow KETO sure seems to be one of the hot button diets of the year. Cannot turn around without someone either saying it is the best thing ever, or it is the most overstated diet that is not real ever. I read each person's point of view here, and one thing really jumped out about the whole being in ketosis bit. On the whole, being in ketosis is not considered a healthy goal. So I find this worrisome that all that bow down to KETO are stating being in KETOSIS is the holy grail.
I understand if someone is let us say, very healthy and on this lifestyle of Keto. But this is where this or so many other diets or lifestyle changes can be scary. For people who already have some type of major health issue, that decide oh yes I am going on Keto, and into Ketone land and this will cure my problems. Ah, I have news for them it could cause them more issues than they could even dream of, like nightmares. What I have read here and in many other posts is people appear to jump after the latest IN thing, and really do not do enough research first. Like want to lose weight well, the thing is we need to burn more calories, than we take in. Need to move more.
And me well I am a diabetic on insulin. So yes I do have to watch my carbs like a hawk. Because I am not just an obese person losing weight. I am an obese diabetic person losing weight. So in my case that means yes I have a calorie count, but me it is about carbs, protein, fat, sugar and sodium as well. And anyone that is a diabetic, ketones are bad news.8 -
LOL, ok Maureen... with all due respect, can you tell me how being in ketosis is dangerous outside for those who are type 1 diabetic? I am open for debate. I will tell you what the medical books say and not what the free world internet say. But, please be a little specific regarding your argument. Meaning give an explanation to your argument outside of it being bad for you.
I will give you a starting topics:
Insulin:
Dispute its inflammatory response in regard to nerves, joints, organs and coronary heart disease. We wont jump in the hot research regarding it's promising assistance in cancer research when insulin held at bay.
Dispute how insulin affects diabetes regarding causing many to become resistant
Dispute how insulin is not a factor in fat loss and fluid retention which can affect ones heart if they suffer from congestive heart failure, low ejection fraction, and poor venous return which also causes stress on the heart and how the body has to compensate and shift the fluid into extracellular tissue which causes extremity swelling and tissue damage.
We will start with those!
Ready go!
p.s. This is not a nasty attempt to argue but an opportunity to learn. Because I agree with you regarding there are other diets out there that are great for weight loss and health. It is up to the practitioner on what fits their life style and dietary likes. My dispute is in regard to being in the state of ketosis is dangerous and unhealthy. Diets are much like cars. many different brands and styles, as long as it works and make you happy then rock on...21 -
Anvilhead, Thanks for the post. I guess you are correct about changing thread topics. I just don't want to scare those who want to better themselves and at least give Keto a try. As, information needs to be as accurate as possible and not hear say or mostly opinion. Let the potential practitioner make their own decision on what is best for them and their life style.10
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Ok, Let me clarify what you are asking. Peer review research? Peers who have done studies themselves? By definition peers are people of our common interest of comparable study and knowledge. I know more than the average Keto practitioner but this does not mean I can perform a research study to give concrete non-disputable data and secondly, not have a bias on the study rather it be in a pro or con angle in the final results. Or are you asking for professional studies and research done by qualified people in the Nutritional and Medical arena who can perform appropriate studies and analysis regarding the topic? 95% of any free research data will be in short form and focuses on mostly medical treatments and therapy such as epilepsy, cancers, alzhimers, cholesterol panels and diabetes just to name a few. Plus, most research done in the past 5 years you will find strictly pertaining to Ketogenic diet (which are few) regarding weight loss can only be found on paid websites or Doctor/Fellow/Intern accessible sites only and within the institutes who performed the studies. Keep in mind weight loss is a billion dollar industry and studies and research will not be found for free. Now with that said, it would take me hours and possible days (of my spare time) to retrieve any data I read in leisure at the institute at where they were found (some I have already left as I am a traveling medical professional). At most hospitals I had to use a Doctors/Fellows ID and password to even log into these websites available.
So, lets take a logical approach of thought.
You start a keto diet. As I am sure you are aware is a 70F/25P/5C some would say 75F/20P/5C approach. But either way 5% of your diet is by way of carbs.
You decide to go on a 1500 calorie diet, which is fine as this can expedite weight loss due to caloric deficit.
This puts you at 1050 cals coming from fats (70%), 300 cals by way of protein (20%), and 75 cals coming from Carbs (5%). this equates to 18.75g carbs (75cal/4g per carb). So, taking this 1500 calorie diet you essentially maxed out your daily carb intake based on this 20g a day approach. Again, I am not disputing that this appoarch won't work because it will, in most cases at a rapid rate (given you stay in this guideline).
Now, lets take those who choose to stay in the guide lines of the 70/25/5 approach like I did for a year. I consumed 2500-3500 calories a day. But we will address just 2000 of those calories, which is not a lot given fat is 9 calories per gram. 1400 (155g) calories fat, 400 cal protein (100g), and 100 cal carbs (25g). This exceeds your theory. So no one can eat more than 1600 (20g carbs) calories a day unless of coarse they drop the daily percentage of carbs. Which causes them to eat less than 5% carbs, which is amazingly difficult even if you only ate things with trace carbs like avocados (which has an average of 5g carbs pending size) and low glycemic index veggies and fruits. But basically you would have to even cut back on much of these items.
Plus, again use logic regarding putting everyone in the same box. Why? Because 50g a day is nothing for a moderately active person. I am talking about the person who hits cardio for 30 min 3-4 days a week only. Then there is the super active person who hits the weights 30-60 min 4-5 days a week and does some level of cardio 4-5 days a week and some even more. You think 50g is an issue to stay in Ketosis for these people? There should be an * placed next to the 20g max for only those performing the diet alone with no other activities. This I fully agree with regarding max 20g carb intake and 1600 calorie a day diet.
Weight loss should be enjoyable not starving and depravation to the point of being uncomfortable.
Again, I have practiced this diet for over a year. I have made an amazing transformation following the macros only and keeping the carbs 50g or less (Just in case I did not mention does includes fiber, not Net carbs).
I went from 209 down to 173.8 and drop down to 12% body fat. And yes, I ate between 2500-3500 calories a day. But I also work out 5-6 days a week.
Take it as you will, but I mean no aggression or argument here, just like to see the information be more in line of reality and fact versus putting everyone in the same small box.
Wish you all the best in your journey
It's a shame this massive wall of text doesn't answer the question asked of you...15 -
I am sorry Tavistock, I guess I should have not expected most to read between the lines so please forgive me! Let me clarify my point just for you. Let’s take it from the top, I mentioned 95% of most information found on free web regarding research and keto are in relations to its benefits to health conditions such as epilepsy, seizures, Alzheimer’s, and dementia etc.... also, as mentioned you Will be hard-pressed to find any reasonable research information debating daily intake of carbohydrates between 20 and 50 g a day, that was the information in dispute if I remember correctly. And again let me mention, research and hot topics such as diets don’t come free by those who perform them. Therefore, finding this information for free on- line and or outside of any medical or teaching facility is not easy. Moving along, I did say that most of my information came from articles, research, and professional medical doctors in the arena of this topic of endocrinology and Cardiology. Reading on, you’ll see that I have to use ( in most cases) a doctors, intern or fellows, ID and password in order to get this information from their database that they only have access to. As much as I want to make you happy and give you the websites, articles and universities performing the studies and who submitted this data and information, I do apologize I don’t have any. Given at the time of my learning, which can go Back over a year ago, was not my original reasoning for reading them, just to come online and debate on the forums with you several months later. So, no I don’t have a log book sitting on my bedside table which I can readily grab and supply this information to you since It was for self understanding. Also given that I was not do any dissertation and or reports that I was going to submit to any organization, I felt no need or relevance ( at that time) to write down and log what studies when the studies were done and who performed the studies and what doctors did them. Plus, heck how would you get access to them anyway? Now, again as mentioned you can go to any medical library ( if you really care) and grab a book on endocrinology and you can spend countless hours reading. Spend time reading up on hormones of the body and how they react and perform and what there process and functions are. Especially that of insulin. ( good reading by the way). This is every day medical science and study that has been thought for decades. But if you really want me to, tomorrow morning I’ll crack open my laptop and pull out a handful of doctor names and “Peers” that everyone has access to if they know how to type the word Ketogenic diet in the search bar! Just saying. But for now I am not going to make any special trips to the medical library and spend countless hours of research and finding “again” these articles and studies. Just to debate with a handful of people who I don’t even know and to be honest with you, I don’t really care if you want to believe me or not.
So besides your trolling quick comment which as no value, do you have anything good that you might can add to dispute what I have said in that “massive wall”? If not, closing this discussion with you! Thanks23 -
As a type 1 diabetic who has been in ketosis for months, I can say it is fantastic for blood glucose management.
Being in diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA), on the other hand, is deadly. There is a world of difference between these 2 things. Don't make the incorrect assumption that ketosis = DKA.10 -
@CogentHMS "Peer reviewed research" -The gold standard in scientific research is when a paper or study is published in a reputable scientific journal so it can be reviewed by other researchers in the field. That often leads to several follow up studies done by other actors, which then are published and peer-reviewed and on and on until some kind of consensus is reached.
Maybe you can start a thread in the Debate forum where you link us to sources for all of these claims you are making! To anyone here, you are just a random internet guy who says he knows all this stuff. Unfortunately, the internet is full of random people who claim to be experts and all contradict each other. If something is scientifically accurate, there should be publicly available sources for the information.
Just a posting tip, you might want to try to type shorter posts and add in paragraph breaks. Many people read the forums on the phone, and those giant walls of text are kind of impossible to read on the phone. People looking for help will also be much more likely to read your post and understand what you are saying if it's a little shorter and broken up
Of course, none of this has anything to do with the poor OP, who probably is just dealing with a little water retention or is eating a bit too much.23 -
Midwestern, just to be clear, I did not read such a comparison on this post. If you are referring to the comment on why type 1 diabetics cannot gain weight without adaquite therapy of exogenous insulin it was not a comparison of diagnosis just the state of being in a Ketoic state (production of low or no insulin) and cannot store fat and constantly burn it! If I did not make that clear I do apologize. I am completely aware of the dangers of DKA, But type 1 ‘s are in danger of this event surely but not actively always in it when monitored as mentioned Therefore, my comparison is when a type 1 is not in a state of acidosis... as they pretty much (as you should know being such a diabetic) ride that fine line of being in complete ketosis if insulin is not supplied by outside sources such as Injection and/or pumps. Thanks for posting4
This discussion has been closed.
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