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Can you gain fat while in ketosis?
Replies
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happytree923 wrote: »I can't wrap my brain around people thinking 'overeating vegetables' (ie eating enough that the carbs knock you out of ketosis, which is not a lot!) is unhealthy when there is no evidence that eating a diet with lots of vegetables is associated with negative health outcomes or obesity.
PS I know a cardiac nurse AND an endocrinologist who disagree with you.
I'd like to know how the insulin=obesity peddlers attempt to explain the fact that there are many non-keto dieters at a healthy body weight/body fat percentage. That alone renders the carbohydrate/insulin obesity hypothesis null and void.
Plant-based diets are largely the antithesis of keto diets, generally being much higher in carbs. Yet, not every vegetarian/vegan is obese. How is it possible?17 -
happytree923 wrote: »I can't wrap my brain around people thinking 'overeating vegetables' (ie eating enough that the carbs knock you out of ketosis, which is not a lot!) is unhealthy when there is no evidence that eating a diet with lots of vegetables is associated with negative health outcomes or obesity.
PS I know a cardiac nurse AND an endocrinologist who disagree with you.
I'd like to know how the insulin=obesity peddlers attempt to explain the fact that there are many non-keto dieters at a healthy body weight/body fat percentage. That alone renders the carbohydrate/insulin obesity hypothesis null and void.
Plant-based diets are largely the antithesis of keto diets, generally being much higher in carbs. Yet, not every vegetarian/vegan is obese. How is it possible?
In fact, at least one major study has shown that of four diet groups (vegan, vegetarian, fish-eaters, and meat-eaters), vegans had the lowest age-adjusted BMI. This is the opposite of what we would expect to see if the insulin=obesity crew was right.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12833118
(Obligatory disclaimer: obviously fit and fat individuals exist in all these groups).14 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.13 -
janejellyroll wrote: »happytree923 wrote: »I can't wrap my brain around people thinking 'overeating vegetables' (ie eating enough that the carbs knock you out of ketosis, which is not a lot!) is unhealthy when there is no evidence that eating a diet with lots of vegetables is associated with negative health outcomes or obesity.
PS I know a cardiac nurse AND an endocrinologist who disagree with you.
I'd like to know how the insulin=obesity peddlers attempt to explain the fact that there are many non-keto dieters at a healthy body weight/body fat percentage. That alone renders the carbohydrate/insulin obesity hypothesis null and void.
Plant-based diets are largely the antithesis of keto diets, generally being much higher in carbs. Yet, not every vegetarian/vegan is obese. How is it possible?
In fact, at least one major study has shown that of four diet groups (vegan, vegetarian, fish-eaters, and meat-eaters), vegans had the lowest age-adjusted BMI. This is the opposite of what we would expect to see if the insulin=obesity crew was right.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12833118
(Obligatory disclaimer: obviously fit and fat individuals exist in all these groups).
It never ceases to amaze me how keto advocates claim their view is backed by all this ground-breaking science that the rest of us are ignorant of, but are never able to find/post any reliable peer-reviewed research in support of their claims. Nothing more than walls of text, rants/insults, blog entries or Netflix "documentaries" (and I use that term in the loosest sense possible).
The plural of 'anecdote' =/= 'data'.
My mind is 100% open and I follow a lot of evidence-based researchers to keep abreast of the latest information about nutrition and training. I would have no reservation about reversing my opinions/positions if there was compelling scientific evidence presented, as I consider it ridiculous, ignorant and damaging to one's credibility to proceed with a viewpoint in the face of a majority of scientific evidence to the contrary. As of yet, I have seen no reliable evidence whatsoever which would even remotely lead me to reconsider my opinions/positions. I'm not swayed by glowing n=1 testimonials and/or anecdotal claims.21 -
^ Another point widely ignored/omitted (or not understood) by the insulin=obesity crowd. Protein is equally insulogenic as carbs....Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein...
Exactly, with a small tweak....So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight whether there is a net fat gain, loss or maintenance.3 -
^ Another point widely ignored/omitted (or not understood) by the insulin=obesity crowd. Protein is equally insulogenic as carbs....Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein...
Exactly, with a small tweak....So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight whether there is a net fat gain, loss or maintenance.
Good correction not to be confused with water weight changes.4 -
happytree923 wrote: »I can't wrap my brain around people thinking 'overeating vegetables' (ie eating enough that the carbs knock you out of ketosis, which is not a lot!) is unhealthy when there is no evidence that eating a diet with lots of vegetables is associated with negative health outcomes or obesity.
PS I know a cardiac nurse AND an endocrinologist who disagree with you.
I'd like to know how the insulin=obesity peddlers attempt to explain the fact that there are many non-keto dieters at a healthy body weight/body fat percentage. That alone renders the carbohydrate/insulin obesity hypothesis null and void.
Plant-based diets are largely the antithesis of keto diets, generally being much higher in carbs. Yet, not every vegetarian/vegan is obese. How is it possible?
Look at someone like Freelee the Banana Girl (proponent of raw high-carb woo). She claims to eat like 3,000 calories of fruit and starch a day and is extremely lean. Because she’s an endurance athlete and doesn’t have a job that takes away from exercise time!2 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.6 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.14 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.
I'd love to see a study done. Put somebody in a metabolic ward, feed them a strict ketogenic diet which puts them in a daily 1,000 calorie surplus for 3 months and record the weight/fat progress via scale and DEXA. No personal anecdotes, no unsubstantiated testimonies - pure scientific method. If all the keto klaims are true, the person should actually lose weight during that period.
But we know they won't, and we know *kitten* well why keto advocates would never do such a study. It would blow everything they believe/claim right out of the water.15 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.
I'd love to see a study done. Put somebody in a metabolic ward, feed them a strict ketogenic diet which puts them in a daily 1,000 calorie surplus for 3 months and record the weight/fat progress via scale and DEXA. No personal anecdotes, no unsubstantiated testimonies - pure scientific method. If all the keto klaims are true, the person should actually lose weight during that period.
But we know they won't, and we know *kitten* well why keto advocates would never do such a study. It would blow everything they believe/claim right out of the water.
I am actually thinking about running that experiment after i hit my goal. Since i have been counting for years and know my actual maintenance, i can set up an experiment fairly well.5 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.
I'd love to see a study done. Put somebody in a metabolic ward, feed them a strict ketogenic diet which puts them in a daily 1,000 calorie surplus for 3 months and record the weight/fat progress via scale and DEXA. No personal anecdotes, no unsubstantiated testimonies - pure scientific method. If all the keto klaims are true, the person should actually lose weight during that period.
But we know they won't, and we know *kitten* well why keto advocates would never do such a study. It would blow everything they believe/claim right out of the water.
I am actually thinking about running that experiment after i hit my goal. Since i have been counting for years and know my actual maintenance, i can set up an experiment fairly well.
Very possible to gain fat/bulk on keto; the results are not pretty (fat gain>muscle gain). Hard to stick to high surpluses (literally got sick of purposely adding EVOO & appetite autoregulated/supressed the more weight gained - Leptin). Did not want to force feed like some kind of livestock animal
Ironically, I'm going back to a higher Carb diet this fall (change diet seasonally) & have no expectations of gaining weight simply by measuring (done so very successfully in the past).5 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
Except the poster who caused this partial thread to be pushed into the debate forum clearly stated, multiple times, that fat will not be stored while in ketosis, regardless of calories. And suggested I Google insulin to learn what happens to those excess cals that won't be stored as fat.8 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
Insulin transports nutrients to cells nothing more. Without an energy surplus, there is no fat storage over time. So, by definition, insulin doesn't play any role in fat storage and weight gain. An energy surplus does. I agree with psulemon, you are projecting.
T1Ds waste away without injecting insulin because the cell can't get nutrients. It has nothing to do with fat gain or not.9 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.
Possibly projecting.
I am sure there are people out there who believe it is impossible to gain weight unless insulin is very high, which is about as true as those statements that claim insulin has nothing at all to do with anyone's weight. Both are exaggerations and not exactly correct. Hopefully they are not the thoughts of most people but you are correct that both have been mentioned in this thread.
I think insulin does help with fat storage but one will not have fat storage without excess calories. 5000 kcal of fat will cause weight gain. So will 5000 kcal of carbs (assuming that's on top of 400 kcal of protein). Will the weight gain be identical? I doubt it. Will everyone with the same TDEE gain the same amount? Doubt it. Other factors will influence that; I just think insulin is one of those factors, and not a large one for many.
Carbs raise insulin, the body uses the carbs for fuel and if there is excess calories, then it will store it as fat, mainly dietary fat being stored as fat. Excess calories when carbs and fat are high is probably the fastest way to store fat, IMO. To avoid that, don't eat excess calories or, to make fat storage a bit less likely if eating a bit more calories than normal, eat very little fat or very few carbs. It may help a bit.
Nothing magic, but to say that insulin has no effect on weight and fat storage at all seems short sighted to me. It plays a role, it is just not be the starring role that calories play. JMOhttps://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.
I'd love to see a study done. Put somebody in a metabolic ward, feed them a strict ketogenic diet which puts them in a daily 1,000 calorie surplus for 3 months and record the weight/fat progress via scale and DEXA. No personal anecdotes, no unsubstantiated testimonies - pure scientific method. If all the keto klaims are true, the person should actually lose weight during that period.
But we know they won't, and we know *kitten* well why keto advocates would never do such a study. It would blow everything they believe/claim right out of the water.
I am actually thinking about running that experiment after i hit my goal. Since i have been counting for years and know my actual maintenance, i can set up an experiment fairly well.
Basically like Feltham's n=1? Just longer than the 21 days that he did? Share it if you do it. Please.7 -
And it seems the poster who started this has left the building. Guess we aren't going to get any of the source material for his claims
6 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.
I'd love to see a study done. Put somebody in a metabolic ward, feed them a strict ketogenic diet which puts them in a daily 1,000 calorie surplus for 3 months and record the weight/fat progress via scale and DEXA. No personal anecdotes, no unsubstantiated testimonies - pure scientific method. If all the keto klaims are true, the person should actually lose weight during that period.
But we know they won't, and we know *kitten* well why keto advocates would never do such a study. It would blow everything they believe/claim right out of the water.
I am actually thinking about running that experiment after i hit my goal. Since i have been counting for years and know my actual maintenance, i can set up an experiment fairly well.
Please post it if you do. The results would be interesting indeed.0 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.
Possibly projecting.
I am sure there are people out there who believe it is impossible to gain weight unless insulin is very high, which is about as true as those statements that claim insulin has nothing at all to do with anyone's weight. Both are exaggerations and not exactly correct. Hopefully they are not the thoughts of most people but you are correct that both have been mentioned in this thread.
I think insulin does help with fat storage but one will not have fat storage without excess calories. 5000 kcal of fat will cause weight gain. So will 5000 kcal of carbs (assuming that's on top of 400 kcal of protein). Will the weight gain be identical? I doubt it. Will everyone with the same TDEE gain the same amount? Doubt it. Other factors will influence that; I just think insulin is one of those factors, and not a large one for many.
Carbs raise insulin, the body uses the carbs for fuel and if there is excess calories, then it will store it as fat, mainly dietary fat being stored as fat. Excess calories when carbs and fat are high is probably the fastest way to store fat, IMO. To avoid that, don't eat excess calories or, to make fat storage a bit less likely if eating a bit more calories than normal, eat very little fat or very few carbs. It may help a bit.
Nothing magic, but to say that insulin has no effect on weight and fat storage at all seems short sighted to me. It plays a role, it is just not be the starring role that calories play. JMOhttps://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.
I'd love to see a study done. Put somebody in a metabolic ward, feed them a strict ketogenic diet which puts them in a daily 1,000 calorie surplus for 3 months and record the weight/fat progress via scale and DEXA. No personal anecdotes, no unsubstantiated testimonies - pure scientific method. If all the keto klaims are true, the person should actually lose weight during that period.
But we know they won't, and we know *kitten* well why keto advocates would never do such a study. It would blow everything they believe/claim right out of the water.
I am actually thinking about running that experiment after i hit my goal. Since i have been counting for years and know my actual maintenance, i can set up an experiment fairly well.
Basically like Feltham's n=1? Just longer than the 21 days that he did? Share it if you do it. Please.
Protein raises insulin also, fyi. And the whole insulin plays a role in fat storage narrative is absurd. The fundamental cause of fat storage is calorie surplus. In the absence of a calorie surplus there is no net fat storage over time despite insulin being raised when carbs or protein are ingested.
Like many keto advocates, you inappropriatly conflate insulin with energy surplus.8 -
So lets all be fair, insulin is a fat storage hormone... It inhibits lipolysis....but that doesn't mean insulin causes net fat without equating for energy balance. But dietary fat doesn't need insulin to be stored in adipose tissue.6
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"gainzzz" not possible without insulin. Hate when people simplify something as good or bad. Same deal with cortisol...some "bad" is needed for your body to work properly3
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Keto_Vampire wrote: »"gainzzz" not possible without insulin. Hate when people simplify something as good or bad. Same deal with cortisol...some "bad" is needed for your body to work properly
Yea I would not have the body I have now without it. I will be sure to send it a thank you card.
6 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.
Possibly projecting.
I am sure there are people out there who believe it is impossible to gain weight unless insulin is very high, which is about as true as those statements that claim insulin has nothing at all to do with anyone's weight. Both are exaggerations and not exactly correct. Hopefully they are not the thoughts of most people but you are correct that both have been mentioned in this thread.
I think insulin does help with fat storage but one will not have fat storage without excess calories. 5000 kcal of fat will cause weight gain. So will 5000 kcal of carbs (assuming that's on top of 400 kcal of protein). Will the weight gain be identical? I doubt it. Will everyone with the same TDEE gain the same amount? Doubt it. Other factors will influence that; I just think insulin is one of those factors, and not a large one for many.
Carbs raise insulin, the body uses the carbs for fuel and if there is excess calories, then it will store it as fat, mainly dietary fat being stored as fat. Excess calories when carbs and fat are high is probably the fastest way to store fat, IMO. To avoid that, don't eat excess calories or, to make fat storage a bit less likely if eating a bit more calories than normal, eat very little fat or very few carbs. It may help a bit.
Nothing magic, but to say that insulin has no effect on weight and fat storage at all seems short sighted to me. It plays a role, it is just not be the starring role that calories play. JMOhttps://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.
I'd love to see a study done. Put somebody in a metabolic ward, feed them a strict ketogenic diet which puts them in a daily 1,000 calorie surplus for 3 months and record the weight/fat progress via scale and DEXA. No personal anecdotes, no unsubstantiated testimonies - pure scientific method. If all the keto klaims are true, the person should actually lose weight during that period.
But we know they won't, and we know *kitten* well why keto advocates would never do such a study. It would blow everything they believe/claim right out of the water.
I am actually thinking about running that experiment after i hit my goal. Since i have been counting for years and know my actual maintenance, i can set up an experiment fairly well.
Basically like Feltham's n=1? Just longer than the 21 days that he did? Share it if you do it. Please.
Protein raises insulin also, fyi. And the whole insulin plays a role in fat storage narrative is absurd. The fundamental cause of fat storage is calorie surplus. In the absence of a calorie surplus there is no net fat storage over time despite insulin being raised when carbs or protein are ingested.
Like many keto advocates, you inappropriatly conflate insulin with energy surplus.
What?
I did not say insulin was an automatic fat storage hormone. I said it plays a role but you need a calorie surplus to gain fat. If you eat protein with your too many calories, you'll get fat then too. Never said you wouldn't.
Wasn't advocating for people to switch to keto here either.
6 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.
I'd love to see a study done. Put somebody in a metabolic ward, feed them a strict ketogenic diet which puts them in a daily 1,000 calorie surplus for 3 months and record the weight/fat progress via scale and DEXA. No personal anecdotes, no unsubstantiated testimonies - pure scientific method. If all the keto klaims are true, the person should actually lose weight during that period.
But we know they won't, and we know *kitten* well why keto advocates would never do such a study. It would blow everything they believe/claim right out of the water.
I'd like to also, unlike with what Feltman did, stipulate that the caloric surplus have to come from pure unadulterated fat so TEF doesn't come into play. Something like coconut oil. Feltman was eating a lot of nuts, IIRC.2 -
I don't need to read peer reviewed studies nor compose an essay with many many words to answer this question.
Can you gain fat while in ketosis?
Of course you can.
Silly...9 -
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MFP moderator1 -
Keto_Vampire wrote: »"gainzzz" not possible without insulin. Hate when people simplify something as good or bad. Same deal with cortisol...some "bad" is needed for your body to work properly
Yes, insulin also promotes anabolism/hypertrophy. Bodybuilders don't inject insulin with the intended purpose of getting fat.
People who promote the insulin obesity theory are either completely ignorant of physiology, or intentionally disingenuous. Simple as that.
I have yet to see any of them offer a rational explanation of how there can be non-keto dieters at a normal/healthy weight if carbs/insulin are responsible for obesity. Or how anybody manages to lose weight without eating less than 20g of carbs per day. I mean, simple observation proves the insulin obesity theory wrong, let alone the mountains of scientific evidence.12 -
LOL, ok Maureen... with all due respect, can you tell me how being in ketosis is dangerous outside for those who are type 1 diabetic? I am open for debate. I will tell you what the medical books say and not what the free world internet say. But, please be a little specific regarding your argument. Meaning give an explanation to your argument outside of it being bad for you.
I will give you a starting topics:
Insulin:
Dispute its inflammatory response in regard to nerves, joints, organs and coronary heart disease. We wont jump in the hot research regarding it's promising assistance in cancer research when insulin held at bay.
Dispute how insulin affects diabetes regarding causing many to become resistant
Dispute how insulin is not a factor in fat loss and fluid retention which can affect ones heart if they suffer from congestive heart failure, low ejection fraction, and poor venous return which also causes stress on the heart and how the body has to compensate and shift the fluid into extracellular tissue which causes extremity swelling and tissue damage.
We will start with those!
Ready go!
p.s. This is not a nasty attempt to argue but an opportunity to learn. Because I agree with you regarding there are other diets out there that are great for weight loss and health. It is up to the practitioner on what fits their life style and dietary likes. My dispute is in regard to being in the state of ketosis is dangerous and unhealthy. Diets are much like cars. many different brands and styles, as long as it works and make you happy then rock on...
As a mother of a child who has been on a ketogenic diet for almost seven years I will inform you that it can absolutely be dangerous and you can definitely gain weight. My son started the diet before he was two years old and I assure you that at 8.5 now he has gained plenty of weight. He is seen regularly by a doctor and a dietitian with routine blood work to monitor his health while on keto. He has been hospitalized 4 times with metabolic acidosis and spent a week in hospital to start his diet. He had metabolic acidosis and was extremely sick even that very first week. It.was scary and we could have lost him. If his epilepsy wasn't so severe we would never have even considered it.
18 -
ElizQuinn80 wrote: »LOL, ok Maureen... with all due respect, can you tell me how being in ketosis is dangerous outside for those who are type 1 diabetic? I am open for debate. I will tell you what the medical books say and not what the free world internet say. But, please be a little specific regarding your argument. Meaning give an explanation to your argument outside of it being bad for you.
I will give you a starting topics:
Insulin:
Dispute its inflammatory response in regard to nerves, joints, organs and coronary heart disease. We wont jump in the hot research regarding it's promising assistance in cancer research when insulin held at bay.
Dispute how insulin affects diabetes regarding causing many to become resistant
Dispute how insulin is not a factor in fat loss and fluid retention which can affect ones heart if they suffer from congestive heart failure, low ejection fraction, and poor venous return which also causes stress on the heart and how the body has to compensate and shift the fluid into extracellular tissue which causes extremity swelling and tissue damage.
We will start with those!
Ready go!
p.s. This is not a nasty attempt to argue but an opportunity to learn. Because I agree with you regarding there are other diets out there that are great for weight loss and health. It is up to the practitioner on what fits their life style and dietary likes. My dispute is in regard to being in the state of ketosis is dangerous and unhealthy. Diets are much like cars. many different brands and styles, as long as it works and make you happy then rock on...
As a mother of a child who has been on a ketogenic diet for almost seven years I will inform you that it can absolutely be dangerous and you can definitely gain weight. My son started the diet before he was two years old and I assure you that at 8.5 now he has gained plenty of weight. He is seen regularly by a doctor and a dietitian with routine blood work to monitor his health while on keto. He has been hospitalized 4 times with metabolic acidosis and spent a week in hospital to start his diet. He had metabolic acidosis and was extremely sick even that very first week. It.was scary and we could have lost him. If his epilepsy wasn't so severe we would never have even considered it.
Thank you for sharing your story. It sounds like you and your son have been through a lot over the years.5 -
60% carbs including sugar....so...much...sugar and losing fat and am almost in my best shape yet.
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