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Can you gain fat while in ketosis?
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maureenkhilde wrote: »Wow KETO sure seems to be one of the hot button diets of the year. Cannot turn around without someone either saying it is the best thing ever, or it is the most overstated diet that is not real ever. I read each person's point of view here, and one thing really jumped out about the whole being in ketosis bit. On the whole, being in ketosis is not considered a healthy goal. So I find this worrisome that all that bow down to KETO are stating being in KETOSIS is the holy grail.
I understand if someone is let us say, very healthy and on this lifestyle of Keto. But this is where this or so many other diets or lifestyle changes can be scary. For people who already have some type of major health issue, that decide oh yes I am going on Keto, and into Ketone land and this will cure my problems. Ah, I have news for them it could cause them more issues than they could even dream of, like nightmares. What I have read here and in many other posts is people appear to jump after the latest IN thing, and really do not do enough research first. Like want to lose weight well, the thing is we need to burn more calories, than we take in. Need to move more.
And me well I am a diabetic on insulin. So yes I do have to watch my carbs like a hawk. Because I am not just an obese person losing weight. I am an obese diabetic person losing weight. So in my case that means yes I have a calorie count, but me it is about carbs, protein, fat, sugar and sodium as well. And anyone that is a diabetic, ketones are bad news.
I believe that Midwesterner was referring to the above comment about ketones and ketosis...1 -
Wow have not seen or read that post. Thanks1
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Oh, lol.. I have read thanks for noticing0
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After re-reading I don’t believe that post addresses Specifically DKA. So I am not sure or that is the case. But anyway. Thanks for addressing0
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It doesn't specifically mention DKA, but it does claim that as a T2, ketones are not a good thing - a myth that many nutritionists and dieticians have attempted to push as a means of discouraging the keto diet. I have seen more than one blog post by the 'experts' that claim dietary ketosis is in fact a minor form of DKA, an out-right fabrication that could not be farther from the truth. DKA only happens when both ketones and glucose are high in the blood stream and dietary ketosis/ketones cannot be present when there is any significant amount of glucose in the blood stream.6
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CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »if you are gaining weight its either water retention from extra exercise,fat or a combo of the 2. if you gain weight and its not water retention its likely to excess calories. even in keto you can gain weight if you eat more calories than you burn. doesnt matter if its excess carbs(which could be water weight(and glycogen) due to eating excess carbs,or excess fats. any macro can lead to weight gain if eaten in excess
Not sure if I am getting your point, so please forgive me... but if you are taking excess carbs you are not in ketosis and yes you will gain weight by why of water retention that part I agree. With the major focus point being “not in Ketosis”. Secondly, if you maintain a 75F/20P/5C macros which is a true ketogenic macro Regimen (not to be confused with a more strict regimen known a therapeutic for medical treatments such as epilepsy) you will find it almost impossible to gain weight and/or water. Now, to lose weight calories are a factor. As the more exogenous fats you consume the less likely the body will breakdown it’s own fat for fuel as there will be no need. Just because one is in Ketosis he/she does not guarantee fat burn if the body is being supplied an amount greater than it needs to fuel it. So, I am sure you are now asking, why will you not gain weight if you have consumed to much? Again, if you are truly following the macros as described above your body will not produce enough insulin to open the cells for storage of fats, proteins, amino acid and nutrients at a noticeable level. (Hence the keto phrases fat burning mode and fat storing mode) you produce insulin you store. It will happen at a low low low degree as your body can and will compensate and convert proteins and or (later down the road) muscle into usable glucose to allow survivable cellular reproduction and some brain function. This information can be found in many Endocrinology books as this has been know for quite some time. It Baffles me how the nutrition and medicine varies with what is know and what is practices. Under the above macros I myself can maintain a daily body weight between 173-176 on 2500-3500 calories daily. Keeping in mind I am 5’11. That is a lot of calories and I gain nothing. At least not until I break my eating regime and eat a boat load of carbs and I gain weight (mostly water) super fast. But this would be over days of poor consumption. I am sure with a little observation you can see that the majority of people do not stay within the boundaries of the macros required to be in Ketosis. The average person does not log foods and test blood for validation. It requires complete commitment and most do not have this level of commitment and they fail. Sometimes unknowingly a person eats more carbs than they think they are just because they think that they are eating healthy with fruits and vegetables but they eat them in excess. Anyway, not trying to dispute your logic but I think there are SO MANY variables involved to why people are not doing well with the Keto diet. Thanks for reading and posting.
I can't wrap my brain around people thinking 'overeating vegetables' (ie eating enough that the carbs knock you out of ketosis, which is not a lot!) is unhealthy when there is no evidence that eating a diet with lots of vegetables is associated with negative health outcomes or obesity.
PS I know a cardiac nurse AND an endocrinologist who disagree with you.13 -
Also, regarding the storage of fat not used, please just go and read medical information on how the hormone insulin works. This is readally available on line as this is decade old indisputable data.
Wanted to add, I have done research on insulin and the insulin response in the body, and I don't know how you think this explains what the body does with excess energy (calories in) that won't be stored as fat because "keto".
If I eat 2500 cals, low enough carbs that I stay in ketosis, but my TDEE is only 2100, what happens to the remaining 400 calories that you are saying will not be stored as fat?7 -
Also, regarding the storage of fat not used, please just go and read medical information on how the hormone insulin works. This is readally available on line as this is decade old indisputable data.
While you're at it, go and read medical information on how the hormone glucagon works. Fung, Taubes and the rest of the keto zealots seem to not know (or conveniently omit) that there is an antagonistic hormone to insulin and there are negative feedback loops in healthy people which control the secretion of both hormones.11 -
I found I can gain while keto, just not that easily. If I increase carbs to LCHF or higher, and eat excess calories, that is when I put on weight easier. Some carbs + fat if calories are in excess = weight gain for me.
Ymmv.
Sam Feltham in his Smash the Fat blog did a few different dietary trials at 5000 kcal a day to see how the diets affected his weight. He gained very predictably on a SAD style of diet, did not really change his body fat% on a ketogenic diet, and gaine a small amount of weight on a high carb vegan diet. I found his n=1 to be quite interesting.
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-got-a-bit-fat/14 -
Oh, and if we want peer-reviewed research on the ketogenic diet, there is actually plenty of it out there. All of which says there is no 'metabolic advantage' to a ketogenic diet, and the carbohydrate/insulin theory of obesity is false:
https://bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/ketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-have-no-metabolic-advantage-over-nonketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-research-review.html/
^ Research review from somebody who has authored several books on ketogenic dieting, as well as weight loss protocols involving TKD/CKD/PSMF. No metabolic advantage to a ketogenic diet.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16685046/
^ Study reviewed above.
https://examine.com/nutrition/low-fat-vs-low-carb-for-weight-loss/
^ A year-long randomized clinical trial has found that a low-fat diet and a low-carb diet produced similar weight loss and improvements in metabolic health markers. Furthermore, insulin production and tested genes had no impact on predicting weight loss success or failure.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316911061_A_Calorie_is_Still_a_Calorie_According_to_Rigorous_New_Evidence
^ Low-carb diets create no more energy deficit than isocaloric ketogenic diets.
http://sciencedrivennutrition.com/do-carbohydrates-control-body-fat/
^ Carbohydrates/insulin do not control body fat.
http://www.stephanguyenet.com/meta-analysis-impact-of-carbohydrate-vs-fat-calories-on-energy-expenditure-and-body-fatness/
^ Meta-analysis: Impact of carbohydrate vs. fat calories on energy expenditure and body fatness.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4603544/
^ Calorie for calorie, dietary fat restriction results in more body fat loss than carbohydrate restriction in people with obesity.
http://www.ebpcoaching.com/blog/2017/11/2/low-carb-or-keto-vs-low-fat-metabolic-advantage
^ Research review - no metabolic advantage to a ketogenic diet.
https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/38/4/267/3892397
^ From the Endocrine Society - the insulin hypothesis of obesity remains controversial and has yet to receive the level of support needed for broad acceptance.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2686143
^ Research review - the carbohydrate/insulin model of obesity is difficult to reconcile with current evidence.
https://weightology.net/good-calories-bad-calories-the-mythology-of-obesity-or-the-mythology-of-gary-taubes/
^ Research review on carbohydrate/insulin model of obesity, relative to Taubes' theories.23 -
happytree923 wrote: »I can't wrap my brain around people thinking 'overeating vegetables' (ie eating enough that the carbs knock you out of ketosis, which is not a lot!) is unhealthy when there is no evidence that eating a diet with lots of vegetables is associated with negative health outcomes or obesity.
PS I know a cardiac nurse AND an endocrinologist who disagree with you.
I'd like to know how the insulin=obesity peddlers attempt to explain the fact that there are many non-keto dieters at a healthy body weight/body fat percentage. That alone renders the carbohydrate/insulin obesity hypothesis null and void.
Plant-based diets are largely the antithesis of keto diets, generally being much higher in carbs. Yet, not every vegetarian/vegan is obese. How is it possible?17 -
happytree923 wrote: »I can't wrap my brain around people thinking 'overeating vegetables' (ie eating enough that the carbs knock you out of ketosis, which is not a lot!) is unhealthy when there is no evidence that eating a diet with lots of vegetables is associated with negative health outcomes or obesity.
PS I know a cardiac nurse AND an endocrinologist who disagree with you.
I'd like to know how the insulin=obesity peddlers attempt to explain the fact that there are many non-keto dieters at a healthy body weight/body fat percentage. That alone renders the carbohydrate/insulin obesity hypothesis null and void.
Plant-based diets are largely the antithesis of keto diets, generally being much higher in carbs. Yet, not every vegetarian/vegan is obese. How is it possible?
In fact, at least one major study has shown that of four diet groups (vegan, vegetarian, fish-eaters, and meat-eaters), vegans had the lowest age-adjusted BMI. This is the opposite of what we would expect to see if the insulin=obesity crew was right.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12833118
(Obligatory disclaimer: obviously fit and fat individuals exist in all these groups).14 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.13 -
janejellyroll wrote: »happytree923 wrote: »I can't wrap my brain around people thinking 'overeating vegetables' (ie eating enough that the carbs knock you out of ketosis, which is not a lot!) is unhealthy when there is no evidence that eating a diet with lots of vegetables is associated with negative health outcomes or obesity.
PS I know a cardiac nurse AND an endocrinologist who disagree with you.
I'd like to know how the insulin=obesity peddlers attempt to explain the fact that there are many non-keto dieters at a healthy body weight/body fat percentage. That alone renders the carbohydrate/insulin obesity hypothesis null and void.
Plant-based diets are largely the antithesis of keto diets, generally being much higher in carbs. Yet, not every vegetarian/vegan is obese. How is it possible?
In fact, at least one major study has shown that of four diet groups (vegan, vegetarian, fish-eaters, and meat-eaters), vegans had the lowest age-adjusted BMI. This is the opposite of what we would expect to see if the insulin=obesity crew was right.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12833118
(Obligatory disclaimer: obviously fit and fat individuals exist in all these groups).
It never ceases to amaze me how keto advocates claim their view is backed by all this ground-breaking science that the rest of us are ignorant of, but are never able to find/post any reliable peer-reviewed research in support of their claims. Nothing more than walls of text, rants/insults, blog entries or Netflix "documentaries" (and I use that term in the loosest sense possible).
The plural of 'anecdote' =/= 'data'.
My mind is 100% open and I follow a lot of evidence-based researchers to keep abreast of the latest information about nutrition and training. I would have no reservation about reversing my opinions/positions if there was compelling scientific evidence presented, as I consider it ridiculous, ignorant and damaging to one's credibility to proceed with a viewpoint in the face of a majority of scientific evidence to the contrary. As of yet, I have seen no reliable evidence whatsoever which would even remotely lead me to reconsider my opinions/positions. I'm not swayed by glowing n=1 testimonials and/or anecdotal claims.21 -
^ Another point widely ignored/omitted (or not understood) by the insulin=obesity crowd. Protein is equally insulogenic as carbs....Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein...
Exactly, with a small tweak....So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight whether there is a net fat gain, loss or maintenance.3 -
^ Another point widely ignored/omitted (or not understood) by the insulin=obesity crowd. Protein is equally insulogenic as carbs....Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein...
Exactly, with a small tweak....So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight whether there is a net fat gain, loss or maintenance.
Good correction not to be confused with water weight changes.4 -
happytree923 wrote: »I can't wrap my brain around people thinking 'overeating vegetables' (ie eating enough that the carbs knock you out of ketosis, which is not a lot!) is unhealthy when there is no evidence that eating a diet with lots of vegetables is associated with negative health outcomes or obesity.
PS I know a cardiac nurse AND an endocrinologist who disagree with you.
I'd like to know how the insulin=obesity peddlers attempt to explain the fact that there are many non-keto dieters at a healthy body weight/body fat percentage. That alone renders the carbohydrate/insulin obesity hypothesis null and void.
Plant-based diets are largely the antithesis of keto diets, generally being much higher in carbs. Yet, not every vegetarian/vegan is obese. How is it possible?
Look at someone like Freelee the Banana Girl (proponent of raw high-carb woo). She claims to eat like 3,000 calories of fruit and starch a day and is extremely lean. Because she’s an endurance athlete and doesn’t have a job that takes away from exercise time!2 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.6 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.14 -
https://youtu.be/JpMbsz9T2vA
For those interested in the basics of fat metabolism, I'd recommend the above link. Suggesting that one needs insulin to gain fat is completely off base. There are multiple hormones that blunt lipolysis (fat burning). Hormone sensitive lipase is blunted by Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) and Glucose Dependant Insulintropic Peptide (GIP). Both ezymes are activated by dietary fst consumption. Lets also not forget that insulin is spiked by protein. So what this means is that no matter what you eat you are storing fat. But net energy balance is what determines if you gain, lose, or maintain your weight.
I think when people say that you need insulin to gain fat, they might be thinking of what happens to T1Ds lacking any insulin. They typically waste away.
https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/diabetes-before-and-after/
Insulin does play a role in fat storage and weight gain. It is not the only factor, and a calorie excess is needed, but it can play a role.
I think you might be projecting a bit. People, to include those in this thread, truly believe that insulin is the key to get fat and that it can't be achieved on a keto diet.
Even your N=1 post from that guy insinuates that crap.
I'd love to see a study done. Put somebody in a metabolic ward, feed them a strict ketogenic diet which puts them in a daily 1,000 calorie surplus for 3 months and record the weight/fat progress via scale and DEXA. No personal anecdotes, no unsubstantiated testimonies - pure scientific method. If all the keto klaims are true, the person should actually lose weight during that period.
But we know they won't, and we know *kitten* well why keto advocates would never do such a study. It would blow everything they believe/claim right out of the water.15
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