Lose weight with cardio
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If there is a les mills body pump near you TRY iT!! It’s what started my whole fitness lifestyle. I tend to drop fat much faster when I lift weights but at first I have no idea what I was doing. The class showed me what to do. Eventually doing my own routines. Wish I could find a class here that wasn’t with a high gym membership0
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MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Just disagreeing with the notion that some have reached a level of training that it's nearly impossible to gain weight.
Would I be right in guessing you don't do endurance cardio?
And you would be wrong. I train 7 hours a week rowing (and more on top of that), many times burning over 1000 an hour. I train with guys that do way more than me and are still, in some cases, overweight. Like I said, I just disagree. I've known many fat runners that run over 75 MPW. I also know guys that do a marathon a week (in one sitting) on the erg (indoor rower) at paces I can only imagine that are heavy. Just seems like a notion to say, "I do so much cardio", as my Brit rowing friends would say, "willy wagging".
I'm not even saying that I fit into this category, just find the whole notion of the idea of something to the extent of only select fitness people can outreach gaining weight by training. There is a limit to training after a while and, while I certainly don't eat like it anymore (I don't eat dairy/gluten, which eliminates nearly 90% of the junk), there was a time in my life I could easily have put down 5K to 6K calories in a day. Many obese people still do that daily. That's how I got to be 240/250 lbs years ago, though I've been in maintenance 6 years now.
I just think it's misleading saying that it's hard at a certain point gaining weight do to exercise. I know a lot of cardio addicts that are heavy.
Personally I wouldn't call that endurance cardio unless you are doing multi hour rows but not lets not go down that rabbit hole....
My point is that although some people sustain a high exercise volume and cannot, or in reality don't choose to, stay slim doesn't negate that some can and do regulate their weight by exercise including deliberate weight loss. Boxers in training camp to make weight for a fight for example.
It's far from uncommon for many dedicated exercisers (not just the elite by any means) to gain weight in their winter or other off season period and then exercise it off again when their training volume picks up.
That's actually my maintenance pattern over several years, my volume drops dramatically from November to January and I gain some weight which I lose again in the Spring when my miles come back up.
That some people can eat at gluttony levels doesn't mean that everyone can even in the far-fetched scenario for most people that is an actual goal to maximise intake. Outside of Antarctic sledge haulers and Trans America competitors perhaps?
"I just think it's misleading saying that it's hard at a certain point gaining weight do to exercise. I know a lot of cardio addicts that are heavy."
Bet you also know a lot of cardio enthusiasts who are slim (using the word addicts is pretty rude).
The limit to training volume is very personal and very varied - your sport doesn't really make long duration exercise easy. A 2hr charity row was one of the most painful things I've ever done, on the other hand 2hrs on a bike is a pretty easy ride. I'm fortunate as someone semi-retired (not a "select fitness person") that I have loads of time to indulge my very enjoyable hobby, my 170,000 + cycling calories a year make a huge contribution to my weight management plan, to the degree I don't need to log my food despite being a bit of a greedy bugger.
It stands repetition - It's the misuse of absolute terms which really annoys. I wouldn't have any issue with "many people can't out exercise their fork" or "a lot of exercise doesn't guarantee weight loss".
The growing rates of obesity aren't just down to increases in intake (CI), in general people's CO has also fallen.
Sorry my 250K to 300K meters on the erg to train to be (hopefully) in the top five in the US for my age group in indoor rowing doesn't meet your standards for cardio endurance. Try to row a sub 7 2K or a 39 minute 10K and tell me that's not an endurance sport. Granted, it's mostly an "old man" sport. Many of my rowing training buddies are former runners/bikers (one was a TdF rider) that don't want to beat up their bodies any more as they age (I'm in my mid 50s).
Look, I just think saying that some people have reached a level of training that it's nearly impossible to gain weight is a slippery slope. That's part of the reason I'm on this site, in case I need to track calories. I've been in maintenance six years. I have the potential to eat 5000 calories in one sitting. My body is at the point where (even though I do way more cardio than most do, including some 2 hour sessions on Sundays) I can't do much more and I likely would be in the top 2% to 5% in terms of volume. I'm about like a 60 or 70 MPW runner in terms of volume.
The other issue is, what do you do if you get injuries if you're not being cautious with calories. Just think that, perhaps, some will think that they can outburn what they eat and I guess what I'm saying is it's not that hard, at least for me, to outeat what I burn. I've done it.
I'm not really willing to say whether or not you do or don't train intensively, but I'm not going to dispute the fact that rowing is an aerobic sport - it is. I don't know that I would qualify races as endurance based given how short they are, but I can't easily find a definition of what is or isn't endurance. I would classify rowing races as a sprint which is kind of the opposite of endurance. That said - the training on ergs and water, is, quite clearly, endurance based for the most part.
That said, yesterday you said that you rowed 7 hours a week - does that mean that you're averaging 35,714 meters an hour on the low end? From what I can tell most college programs are training twice a day on weekdays and then on Saturdays (from google and the experiences of multiple friends who road at various colleges). That definitely ends up being over 7 hours a week (it's also a schedule that I don't envy because I just don't have the time when you add in cycling and choir on top of school).
edited because I couldn't quickly find a definition of "endurance" as it relates to distance in various sports.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I do around 200K to 275K a MONTH, not a week!! However, it's not uncommon for college crew rowers to do 200K a week (around 15 plus hours). My paces are more like 14K meters an hour (around 2:10 pace on slower days in rowing terms). I'd like to work up to 90K to 100K a week but I'm not sure the body will take it at my age.
Like I said, perhaps it's not considered by most an endurance sport and I understand that. I'm OK with people considering that. Rowers would disagree. I was a trail runner (only 7/8 mile races but large elevation changes) before I took up rowing and could have finished a half marathon any week. I train twice as hard now rowing for something that is less than 10 minutes. I know it sounds counterintuitive.
I don't disagree it's damn hard to outeat if you train 10 plus hours of harder cardio a week but it can be done. I was fat when I started working out. And ate ridiculous amounts of food (also something I'm not proud of). What I've found, in general, is that the harder I train the more appetite I have.
Found a study on BMI and Ultramarathoners yesterday. They were looking to see if BMI (of 70 something finishers) predicted performance. It didn't but upper body size/strength, oddly, or lack of, did. So it seems you want to have as little muscle mass as possible to be an ultramarathoner. It's the opposite with rowers. You want muscle mass, lots of it. Thus the appetite -- I can't afford to lose muscle. I did find that the average finisher was a 24.8 BMI (not as thin as you'd think) and the BMI went up to over 30 for finishers, so even studies are finding heavier ultra runners.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20222002
The only reason (and I don't encourage this) I eat massive amounts of PB is I'm vegan 3/4 days a week and need massive amounts of protein. If I undereat during training, I'm ravenous at night and PB helps me cope with the hunger. FWIW, I'm about 20% body fat, which I try to stay above for rowing. Physics. Larger masses have more power.
No matter what your endurance sport is of choosing, most that I know eat 2/3 of their calories burned around their workouts. Helps with muscle recovery. If you do that, it's not that hard to overeat the rest of the day. Even though I work out at lunch (fasted), I like to eat at least 2/3 to 3/4 of my burned calories back. I feel better the next day that way.
Didn't mean to come off rude. Sorry if I did. Likely, I'm a bit cranky right now with a sore back. I'm relegated to half my cardio time on an Assault Bike (more boring than the rower!). I get cranky like most do when their training gets derailed. I mostly agree with what you said, it's just if someone is a glutenous eater (like I was when I was really heavy), it's not that hard to eat more than 5K to 6K a day. I know TdF riders and others can't eat more than they burn, but they are also eating healthy, nutritious food. Fast food, ice cream, nut butters, candy, all the pop, pizza, etc. add up a lot faster than lean chicken and veggies and the likes that elite, world class athletes are prepared.
Two friends of mine this past two weeks set the British Indoor Records on the rower (I think for an hour or a 10K row, one of the other). They are married (both also former really elite runners). They were celebrating their 60th and 61st B-Days. They both ate nearly an entire Chocolate Cake after, deservedly so.0 -
A few observations:
1. Mike is speaking of and for machine rowers. Much of what is true for machine rowing is also true for rowing on water, but not all. For one, in a boat, body weight is a mixed blessing. Muscle is good - well, muscle in useful places. Fat is distinctly unhelpful (I got noticeably faster on water when I lost weight, but stayed about the same pace on the rowing machine . . . that pace was more competitive as a li'l ol' lady lightweight vs. openweight, though).
2. I've always understood standard competitive rowing to be considered a short endurance/power endurance sport, simply because it's slightly too long time-wise to be fueled/executed like a sprint: Muscular endurance is involved. (I'm speaking here of the traditional standard 2K, juniors'/masters' 1K, even the "long" head races at maybe around 3 miles at the outside. Some machine folks now race marathons and half-marathons these days, which is clearly a different deal.) How to classify it competitively is a whole different question than practice volume, though. The best rowers have large, muscular hearts, and a quite substantial VO2max, both of which require training volume. Don't quite a few CV sports involve volume substantially higher than competition?
3. None of this has the slightest thing to do with the OP's original query. Amusingly off topic, really.
Remember OP? Beginner, asking about whether clean eating and Zumba 3 times a week for an hour is a good body fat loss plan? I hope someone in the thread helped her, somewhere along the line. 6 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Just disagreeing with the notion that some have reached a level of training that it's nearly impossible to gain weight.
Would I be right in guessing you don't do endurance cardio?
And you would be wrong. I train 7 hours a week rowing (and more on top of that), many times burning over 1000 an hour. I train with guys that do way more than me and are still, in some cases, overweight. Like I said, I just disagree. I've known many fat runners that run over 75 MPW. I also know guys that do a marathon a week (in one sitting) on the erg (indoor rower) at paces I can only imagine that are heavy. Just seems like a notion to say, "I do so much cardio", as my Brit rowing friends would say, "willy wagging".
I'm not even saying that I fit into this category, just find the whole notion of the idea of something to the extent of only select fitness people can outreach gaining weight by training. There is a limit to training after a while and, while I certainly don't eat like it anymore (I don't eat dairy/gluten, which eliminates nearly 90% of the junk), there was a time in my life I could easily have put down 5K to 6K calories in a day. Many obese people still do that daily. That's how I got to be 240/250 lbs years ago, though I've been in maintenance 6 years now.
I just think it's misleading saying that it's hard at a certain point gaining weight do to exercise. I know a lot of cardio addicts that are heavy.
Personally I wouldn't call that endurance cardio unless you are doing multi hour rows but not lets not go down that rabbit hole....
My point is that although some people sustain a high exercise volume and cannot, or in reality don't choose to, stay slim doesn't negate that some can and do regulate their weight by exercise including deliberate weight loss. Boxers in training camp to make weight for a fight for example.
It's far from uncommon for many dedicated exercisers (not just the elite by any means) to gain weight in their winter or other off season period and then exercise it off again when their training volume picks up.
That's actually my maintenance pattern over several years, my volume drops dramatically from November to January and I gain some weight which I lose again in the Spring when my miles come back up.
That some people can eat at gluttony levels doesn't mean that everyone can even in the far-fetched scenario for most people that is an actual goal to maximise intake. Outside of Antarctic sledge haulers and Trans America competitors perhaps?
"I just think it's misleading saying that it's hard at a certain point gaining weight do to exercise. I know a lot of cardio addicts that are heavy."
Bet you also know a lot of cardio enthusiasts who are slim (using the word addicts is pretty rude).
The limit to training volume is very personal and very varied - your sport doesn't really make long duration exercise easy. A 2hr charity row was one of the most painful things I've ever done, on the other hand 2hrs on a bike is a pretty easy ride. I'm fortunate as someone semi-retired (not a "select fitness person") that I have loads of time to indulge my very enjoyable hobby, my 170,000 + cycling calories a year make a huge contribution to my weight management plan, to the degree I don't need to log my food despite being a bit of a greedy bugger.
It stands repetition - It's the misuse of absolute terms which really annoys. I wouldn't have any issue with "many people can't out exercise their fork" or "a lot of exercise doesn't guarantee weight loss".
The growing rates of obesity aren't just down to increases in intake (CI), in general people's CO has also fallen.
Sorry my 250K to 300K meters on the erg to train to be (hopefully) in the top five in the US for my age group in indoor rowing doesn't meet your standards for cardio endurance. Try to row a sub 7 2K or a 39 minute 10K and tell me that's not an endurance sport. Granted, it's mostly an "old man" sport. Many of my rowing training buddies are former runners/bikers (one was a TdF rider) that don't want to beat up their bodies any more as they age (I'm in my mid 50s).
Look, I just think saying that some people have reached a level of training that it's nearly impossible to gain weight is a slippery slope. That's part of the reason I'm on this site, in case I need to track calories. I've been in maintenance six years. I have the potential to eat 5000 calories in one sitting. My body is at the point where (even though I do way more cardio than most do, including some 2 hour sessions on Sundays) I can't do much more and I likely would be in the top 2% to 5% in terms of volume. I'm about like a 60 or 70 MPW runner in terms of volume.
The other issue is, what do you do if you get injuries if you're not being cautious with calories. Just think that, perhaps, some will think that they can outburn what they eat and I guess what I'm saying is it's not that hard, at least for me, to outeat what I burn. I've done it.
I'm not really willing to say whether or not you do or don't train intensively, but I'm not going to dispute the fact that rowing is an aerobic sport - it is. I don't know that I would qualify races as endurance based given how short they are, but I can't easily find a definition of what is or isn't endurance. I would classify rowing races as a sprint which is kind of the opposite of endurance. That said - the training on ergs and water, is, quite clearly, endurance based for the most part.
That said, yesterday you said that you rowed 7 hours a week - does that mean that you're averaging 35,714 meters an hour on the low end? From what I can tell most college programs are training twice a day on weekdays and then on Saturdays (from google and the experiences of multiple friends who road at various colleges). That definitely ends up being over 7 hours a week (it's also a schedule that I don't envy because I just don't have the time when you add in cycling and choir on top of school).
edited because I couldn't quickly find a definition of "endurance" as it relates to distance in various sports.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I do around 200K to 275K a MONTH, not a week!! However, it's not uncommon for college crew rowers to do 200K a week (around 15 plus hours). My paces are more like 14K meters an hour (around 2:10 pace on slower days in rowing terms). I'd like to work up to 90K to 100K a week but I'm not sure the body will take it at my age.
Like I said, perhaps it's not considered by most an endurance sport and I understand that. I'm OK with people considering that. Rowers would disagree. I was a trail runner (only 7/8 mile races but large elevation changes) before I took up rowing and could have finished a half marathon any week. I train twice as hard now rowing for something that is less than 10 minutes. I know it sounds counterintuitive.
I don't disagree it's damn hard to outeat if you train 10 plus hours of harder cardio a week but it can be done. I was fat when I started working out. And ate ridiculous amounts of food (also something I'm not proud of). What I've found, in general, is that the harder I train the more appetite I have.
Found a study on BMI and Ultramarathoners yesterday. They were looking to see if BMI (of 70 something finishers) predicted performance. It didn't but upper body size/strength, oddly, or lack of, did. So it seems you want to have as little muscle mass as possible to be an ultramarathoner. It's the opposite with rowers. You want muscle mass, lots of it. Thus the appetite -- I can't afford to lose muscle. I did find that the average finisher was a 24.8 BMI (not as thin as you'd think) and the BMI went up to over 30 for finishers, so even studies are finding heavier ultra runners.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20222002
The only reason (and I don't encourage this) I eat massive amounts of PB is I'm vegan 3/4 days a week and need massive amounts of protein. If I undereat during training, I'm ravenous at night and PB helps me cope with the hunger. FWIW, I'm about 20% body fat, which I try to stay above for rowing. Physics. Larger masses have more power.
No matter what your endurance sport is of choosing, most that I know eat 2/3 of their calories burned around their workouts. Helps with muscle recovery. If you do that, it's not that hard to overeat the rest of the day. Even though I work out at lunch (fasted), I like to eat at least 2/3 to 3/4 of my burned calories back. I feel better the next day that way.
Didn't mean to come off rude. Sorry if I did. Likely, I'm a bit cranky right now with a sore back. I'm relegated to half my cardio time on an Assault Bike (more boring than the rower!). I get cranky like most do when their training gets derailed. I mostly agree with what you said, it's just if someone is a glutenous eater (like I was when I was really heavy), it's not that hard to eat more than 5K to 6K a day. I know TdF riders and others can't eat more than they burn, but they are also eating healthy, nutritious food. Fast food, ice cream, nut butters, candy, all the pop, pizza, etc. add up a lot faster than lean chicken and veggies and the likes that elite, world class athletes are prepared.
Two friends of mine this past two weeks set the British Indoor Records on the rower (I think for an hour or a 10K row, one of the other). They are married (both also former really elite runners). They were celebrating their 60th and 61st B-Days. They both ate nearly an entire Chocolate Cake after, deservedly so.
Like I said, I am well aware that the vast majority of training for races in rowing is endurance. It's the races themselves, on the water, that I'm less convinced of. In the same way that I don't know that I would call a sprint race in track cycling an endurance race where as I would say that of a points race. Despite the distinction in races, training for them is still very endurance heavy. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
And yes I know that it isn't uncommon for college crews to do 200k a week, that's why I was so confused about the hours you had mentioned you row
I also am very aware of the crossover that rowing and cycling have (and cycling and speed skating). I was aware of that well before Wiggins' attempt to crossover and become an elite rower. Additionally for what it's worth I do row on the water now. I'm very much a novice, but I am actually eating dinner as I type this as I just got back from rowing a little over an hour and a half ago.
In terms of food, like I've said in some of my posts, I just flat out don't like a fair amount of things that are especially calorie dense and some of those things don't like me either (aka i have food intolerances to them). I eat almost no dairy products (ice cream and whipped cream on things is the big exception) because I don't like them and because I have a fairly slight lactose intolerance. I also don't like most nut butters (I only really like chocolate hazelnut butter and even there I'm picky - Nutella is far from my top choice). Other things I like but I don't cook a lot out of habit. For example, I like a fried foods but I almost never make them because I hate dealing with that much oil on a logistical level. I also don't enjoy eating past being full which is why it's so easy for me to do a 60+ mile ride and not eat all of the excess calories back, and that's with a pupusa stop depending on where I'm riding (but pupusas without cheese...).
I should also note that I grew up eating in such a way that I was easily able to maintain being 155lbs at 5' 8" by rock climbing alone and at that point I was eating slightly more fast food than I do now (I stopped eating fast food when I was 16 by choice). I was absurdly healthy - to such an extent that when we had to run labs for back surgery when I was 14 my surgeon was a bit astonished. My diet consisted of a lot of roasted chicken and fish. Right now my diet consists of a lot of chicken and beans (and sometimes rice). The things I like that that bring me into eating more calories than I burn is snacking on baked goods so for me it really is "bike and don't eat as many baked goods". It's also really easy to look back and see how I slowly put back on weight. I started drinking soda (because there was no one saying that I can't have it and then I was in a relationship with someone who encouraged it), wasn't doing any sports for various reasons, and had more time to bake.
Today what I ate consisted of a bagel with butter (way too much butter so really it was more like half a bagel because there was way too much butter for my palate to deal with), a 16oz latte (I "splurged" because I two a punch cards that were full and it's the first day of classes - otherwise I wouldn't spend the money on that), some roasted cauliflower and cannellini bean dish that I made for lunch, a cup of homemade apple sauce, one chocolate chip cookie, and gnocchi with marinara sauce and turkey meatballs (they didn't have any beef ones at the store and I didn't feel like making them). That brings me up to around 1,440 calories. I bought a second cookie on my walk to the car from the boat house because cookies are tasty and I was hungry but now that I've had something to eat I'm in the mindset of "well, that would bring you up to 1,600 calories".0 -
Right what I was getting at was two things.2. I've always understood standard competitive rowing to be considered a short endurance/power endurance sport, simply because it's slightly too long time-wise to be fueled/executed like a sprint: Muscular endurance is involved. (I'm speaking here of the traditional standard 2K, juniors'/masters' 1K, even the "long" head races at maybe around 3 miles at the outside. Some machine folks now race marathons and half-marathons these days, which is clearly a different deal.) How to classify it competitively is a whole different question than practice volume, though. The best rowers have large, muscular hearts, and a quite substantial VO2max, both of which require training volume. Don't quite a few CV sports involve volume substantially higher than competition?
1. the races (on the water) themselves may or may not be endurance (someone has the answer but I'm not that person), though probably not nearly to the extent of say, most cycling events, some running events, cross country skiing, etc.
2. Despite my point in 1. the training is, quite clearly, endurance based. There's no disputing it. In addition to elite rowers' hearts doing the typical thick walled thing that most endurance athletes hearts have, they're also larger in volume. The larger volume is unique to rowers - though now I'm really curious about the hearts of race walkers...1 -
@NorthCascades and @sijomial - My FTP is up 1% from 180 to 183. It's not the highest I've had since changing to getting my data from my Powertap pedals (which are more accurate than the Kickr Snap), it is the highest I've had since taking time off after my century ride this summer and ramping up (and then back down down) with running. It's also only 3 watts lower than the highest reliable FTP I've had so I'm ok with that.
I'm starting TrainerRoad's Sweet Spot Base plan and it should be interesting to see the results of my next test in 6 weeks.2 -
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NorthCascades wrote: »
Thanks! I also realized after I wrote that that it was one of the few FTP tests where my legs gave out before my heart did (obviously not literally) which makes me think that things are going better in terms of my cardiovascular fitness. Normally my legs are hurting but not to the point of being unable to continue and but I can't catch my breath which ends up being the limiting factor. This time it was, "oh I really can't keep up this power at all but I can still breathe."
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@aokoye
Well done, nice result.
I've heard good things about TrainerRoad but no personal experience of it.
At instigation of my cycling guru he got me doing extended duration intervals either side of my FTP, started at 5 min intervals and worked my way up steadily but never quite made the 12 minutes intervals he does. It's not pleasant but was very effective at improving my FTP. Also very effective at losing water weight!
When my FTP was about 190 so high intervals are about +10% ....
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@aokoye
Well done, nice result.
I've heard good things about TrainerRoad but no personal experience of it.
At instigation of my cycling guru he got me doing extended duration intervals either side of my FTP, started at 5 min intervals and worked my way up steadily but never quite made the 12 minutes intervals he does. It's not pleasant but was very effective at improving my FTP. Also very effective at losing water weight!
When my FTP was about 190 so high intervals are about +10% ....
Thanks! I really like TR actually. They also have a great podcast called Ask a Cycling Coach. I have a three 1 month free referral codes (I don't get anything money/credit for giving them out but they keep accruing) if you or anyone else wants to try it. Over/under workouts are killer but so useful. There's a 90 min workout in the SS Base Building plan that involves five nine minute invervals of 2 min at 95% of your FTP and 1 min at 110% of your ftp (repeated three times). The next week has a similar 90 min ride but it's 1 minute at 95% and 2 minutes at 105%.1 -
Do 40 minutes cardio 3 times per week amd also try and do 2 days strength training, ie weights, resistance bands, to Create calorie deficit and a healthy diet. The weight will come off quickly at the begining, due to water weight, then 2lbs a week fat will come off if u keep at it. Whatever calories yoi burn, try not to eat them back. Also drink plenty of water everyday.4
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