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Keto diet = good or bad
Replies
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
They did address energy levels too. They felt slower and used their lack of energy as a hunger cue since their hunger lessened a fair bit. Overall, they said energy was less, which was why I suspected an electrolyte imbalance.
That isn't always the case. I always felt tired and hungry during my keto days and i consume over 6000mg of sodium a day.
True, I know. Fatigue and hunger is most commonly attributed to not getting enough sodium. Usually 3000-5000 mg is enough but some go well over 7000 mg before it is enough and the fatigue, weakness and brain fog goes.
A bit less... pep in the muscles is common during HIIT and such, but overall fatigue without low electrolytes is not that common.
Couldn't the fatigue and hunger be attributed to something other than electrolytes, like perhaps some individuals naturally do better on a more moderate (or at least not keto) carb level?
Is there something definitive to read about what is common or typical when someone is starting to do keto? Are there statistics on that out there somewhere?
Sure it could. It happens. It just is usually caused by low electrolytes. Note the word "usually".
Most keto'ers have steadier energy, which is often felt to be an overall higher energy level, and a reduced appetite on keto. Not everyone experiences that, but it is the more common reaction.
My guess, and this is only a guess, is that the metabolically healthy, active and/or young will be less likely to experience an improved energy level/steadiness. If one experiences reduced energy on a high fat diet, that would seem to suggest that they cannot metabolically use fats for fuel as well as others can. Sort of like how I have lower and less steady energy when I have a lot of carbs - my body can't metabolically handle the glucose as well as it should.
Definitive read? Perhaps the virta study? It is just people with T2D though. A study that applies to all? Doubtful.
As someone who has read widely on the subject for 5 years, I have seen that there is a normal reaction to keto for various groups. Improved energy or neutral energy and a reduced appetite is the norm. When people complain of low energy and then increase their sodium intake, the low energy almost always goes away. Neutral or less "pep" in terms of energy during exercise is pretty normal for the first few weeks to months.
In almost all the keto studies I have seen, whether diet or training related, there is significant variation amongst the group members. Its when you take a mean average that it shows the results you describe.
The steadier energy thing generally doesn't have a control group of healthy or nutrient dense foods. Its generally the SAD diet vs keto. And of all the people i have coached and discussed diet with, only the ones who ate like crap had energy issues.
Yes, it makes sense that most are coming from a less than ideal diet and getting improvements. If they had found something that worked really well, they would not be trying keto - they would be sticking with whatever was working instead.3 -
I started the Keto Diet 5 weeks ago . I was very skeptical because I heard that the Keto diet is only for people with seizures and cystic fibrosis . I am still a tiny bit skeptical but I lost 13lbs. Am I doing the right thing?Keto may be good for:
autoimmune diseases, CVD, epilepsy, stroke or other brain injuries, insulin resistance (PCOS, T2D, prediabetes, NAFLD, dementia), skin and hair, BP regulation, complimentary cancer treatments, migraine control, better energy, reducing appetite and cravings, good food, people who do better with abstinence than moderation.
It won't help everyone in those situations, like any treatment, but it may help some. Considering that list is more than half of North American adults, I think it could help many people.
Keto may not good for:
good food, getting sudden energy from food, those who prefer moderation to abstinence, some volume eaters, probably those with FH, those with lipid metabolizing disorders.
It won't harm everyone in those situations. Considering there are many healthy people out there without health or metabolic problems, I think those people would not be helped by it.
The fact that some people have not their research, and have confused lower carb with keto, is not actually a fault with keto but is more of a problem with people who jump on the bandwagon without checking it out first. It will happen with all diets; it's just happening more with keto now because of its sudden popularity.
I don't really count but estimate that I am <50 carbs. I am never really sure if I should classify as keto or LCHF. I don't really care all that much which.
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I have lost 20 pounds in a month. Started around 208 and surpassed 188 sliding down the scale a couple days ago. The true key is keeping carbs under 20 grams!! I went off for one day and that was a HUGE mistake. Going out of ketosis takes days to get back in.
My goal is to get to 180 and start a slow reintroduction back into carbs. MCT oil is a great product to keep good fats in. Make sure you do get some carbs, though. The danger of slipping into ketoacidosis is real. The liver makes too many ketones and muscles become energy, not fat.
I hope you’ve stayed on and report back some time. My biggest hurdle was figuring out how eat a variety of foods. Everything looked like a deli tray with no color at the beginning. Now I eat about 6 cups of salad a day with great protein, nuts, good cheese, and a bit of dark chocolate or unsweetened almond milk. It is all about self control. My gut feels soooo much better, I sleep better, and I make sure to drink at least 64 Oz water a day.
Calories count for weight loss, no matter what diet you do!! I keep under 1500 per day and steadily lose weight. I can’t say I break a sweat everyday, but the weather is colder and I work a little inside and outside.
Oh! And my blood pressure has gone from 140/96 to 125/76 as of today. Good bye Thanksgiving water weight and bowel issues, hello cookie baking and not giving into temptation.9 -
balafenntango wrote: »I have lost 20 pounds in a month. Started around 208 and surpassed 188 sliding down the scale a couple days ago. The true key is keeping carbs under 20 grams!! I went off for one day and that was a HUGE mistake. Going out of ketosis takes days to get back in.
My goal is to get to 180 and start a slow reintroduction back into carbs. MCT oil is a great product to keep good fats in. Make sure you do get some carbs, though. The danger of slipping into ketoacidosis is real. The liver makes too many ketones and muscles become energy, not fat.
I hope you’ve stayed on and report back some time. My biggest hurdle was figuring out how eat a variety of foods. Everything looked like a deli tray with no color at the beginning. Now I eat about 6 cups of salad a day with great protein, nuts, good cheese, and a bit of dark chocolate or unsweetened almond milk. It is all about self control. My gut feels soooo much better, I sleep better, and I make sure to drink at least 64 Oz water a day.
Calories count for weight loss, no matter what diet you do!! I keep under 1500 per day and steadily lose weight. I can’t say I break a sweat everyday, but the weather is colder and I work a little inside and outside.
Oh! And my blood pressure has gone from 140/96 to 125/76 as of today. Good bye Thanksgiving water weight and bowel issues, hello cookie baking and not giving into temptation.
Congrats on losing 20 pounds!
Not to jump on you or attack you, but the bolded part of your statement is incorrect - there are many people on these boards and in the world that practice a complete carnivore diet, meaning they eat no carbs at all. Also, ketoacidosis does not cause muscle to be used for energy, lack of protein does. Ketoacidosis causes death (if untreated) and is also very different from nutritional ketosis and WILL NOT happen in a healthy human body as a result of nutritional ketosis (like eating low-carb or keto). The following link contains a fairly good explanation of the differences between ketosis and ketoacidosis (and what causes them):
https://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/ketoacidosis.html3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
They did address energy levels too. They felt slower and used their lack of energy as a hunger cue since their hunger lessened a fair bit. Overall, they said energy was less, which was why I suspected an electrolyte imbalance.
That isn't always the case. I always felt tired and hungry during my keto days and i consume over 6000mg of sodium a day.
True, I know. Fatigue and hunger is most commonly attributed to not getting enough sodium. Usually 3000-5000 mg is enough but some go well over 7000 mg before it is enough and the fatigue, weakness and brain fog goes.
A bit less... pep in the muscles is common during HIIT and such, but overall fatigue without low electrolytes is not that common.
This is incredibly variable and dependent on the individual and the situation. A number of programs implement a gross calculation based on sweat weight - replacing ~500 mg sodium for every pound of sweat generated. They estimate this loss during training phases and supplement with Gatorade and salt pills.
You are saying that sodium needs vary? I agree.
Most keto'ers need 3000-5000 mg of sodium a day... this is starting to be seen as a recommended intake for everyone. Some will do fine on less, and others will need more. More is more common due to glycogen loss and lower insulin levels.
Is there a significant difference between a keto group and control group?1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
They did address energy levels too. They felt slower and used their lack of energy as a hunger cue since their hunger lessened a fair bit. Overall, they said energy was less, which was why I suspected an electrolyte imbalance.
That isn't always the case. I always felt tired and hungry during my keto days and i consume over 6000mg of sodium a day.
True, I know. Fatigue and hunger is most commonly attributed to not getting enough sodium. Usually 3000-5000 mg is enough but some go well over 7000 mg before it is enough and the fatigue, weakness and brain fog goes.
A bit less... pep in the muscles is common during HIIT and such, but overall fatigue without low electrolytes is not that common.
This is incredibly variable and dependent on the individual and the situation. A number of programs implement a gross calculation based on sweat weight - replacing ~500 mg sodium for every pound of sweat generated. They estimate this loss during training phases and supplement with Gatorade and salt pills.
You are saying that sodium needs vary? I agree.
Most keto'ers need 3000-5000 mg of sodium a day... this is starting to be seen as a recommended intake for everyone. Some will do fine on less, and others will need more. More is more common due to glycogen loss and lower insulin levels.
Is there a significant difference between a keto group and control group?
Just circulating insulin levels. Insulin causes water and electrolyte retention. Lower insulin means electrolytes lost.1 -
Keto. My personal opinion (not fact)? It's a stupid fad diet. How is staying so low on carbs that you end up skipping out on vegetables a good thing? If you want weight loss CICO is ultimately what can get you results.
I personally do a low carb diet. But you do not seem to know much about a diet you are bashing. On Keto there are quite a few Vegetables that you can eat on a regular basis. Really the ones that are off limits are starchy vegetables. And they are not on low carb diets either.5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
Yes, I agree with this.
Having finally finished the personal experience part, I thought it, like the discussion of the studies, was quite sensible and even-handed.
Kevin talked about his difficulties doing keto as a vegetarian, which rang true. And yes, they were talking about performance, NOT keto flu. When I did it, I had no keto flu (I did add some extra salt to my diet, but I think it was mainly because I was already somewhat low carb). I did find that my energy when doing things like running, and particularly running up stairs, was less, although it came back a lot after 2 weeks. I would not have been surprised if my performance if trying to train hard or run a race was still compromised after a month or more (as Kevin reported from his prior experience). I also would not be surprised if that varies by person, and I've seen studies that show initial decline unrelated to electrolytes.
I'll also note that Kevin specifically mentioned that his diet doing keto was way higher in sodium than before.
Both of them indeed discussed trying to formulate a healthy keto diet, and approached it the way I did (planning to focus on meat and non starchy veg for Katherine, for eggs and dairy and non starchy veg for Kevin). Part of Kevin's issue seemed to be a lack of interest in food while doing it, which is certainly a common side effect. Both of them noticed what I did, which was that you had to reduce veg if you are someone who was used to a diet high in veg (and I think Kevin's normal 50-60 g of fiber diet speaks to that, as well as him having to cut out some of his staple foods, like beans). And I'll note that I struggled with staying under my higher personal goal of 60 g total, 35 g net, while they were trying to be strict and stay below 20 g net. I found I had to watch and limit veg + nuts some at my goal, but it was more annoying than difficult. I don't think I could have done under 20 without really limiting the types of veg I ate (I don't mean just starchy veg, which I cut out entirely at the beginning), and also the amount in a way that just doesn't work for me, as I consider vegetables extremely important and nothing to limit (and love them).2 -
Yes! I found myself limiting vegetables too, and frankly, grew really tired of greens. And cleaning/prepping them.3
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maureenkhilde wrote: »Keto. My personal opinion (not fact)? It's a stupid fad diet. How is staying so low on carbs that you end up skipping out on vegetables a good thing? If you want weight loss CICO is ultimately what can get you results.
I personally do a low carb diet. But you do not seem to know much about a diet you are bashing. On Keto there are quite a few Vegetables that you can eat on a regular basis. Really the ones that are off limits are starchy vegetables. And they are not on low carb diets either.
While you can have a limited variety, its low quantity. At least I thought so0 -
maureenkhilde wrote: »Keto. My personal opinion (not fact)? It's a stupid fad diet. How is staying so low on carbs that you end up skipping out on vegetables a good thing? If you want weight loss CICO is ultimately what can get you results.
I personally do a low carb diet. But you do not seem to know much about a diet you are bashing. On Keto there are quite a few Vegetables that you can eat on a regular basis. Really the ones that are off limits are starchy vegetables. And they are not on low carb diets either.
While you can have a limited variety, its low quantity. At least I thought so
I do tend to wonder how many people doing keto were vegetable fiends like some of us before undertaking it. And this isn't a jab at them, it's just thinking out loud. I know I eat a ridiculous amount of vegetables and fruits in a day. Most of the veggies I eat aren't even necessarily ones that aren't allowed on keto. My favorites are brussels, mushrooms, asparagus, collards, cauliflower, broccoli, zucchini, and spaghetti squash. The only favorites of mine not keto-friendly are butternut squash and potatoes. Tomatoes? Well, I like them in quantity. I could have had one or two on keto, but opted for more greens.
Anyway, when I was doing keto, the portions of these veggies I got to eat was quite small compared to what I'm used to.
I remember when we had that 10 servings a day challenge, I didn't have to make a change to my daily diet to make the requirement.7 -
I would guess, and this is only a guess, that most people get the majority of their carbs from highly processed and refined carbs like sugar, bread, crackers, junk food (chips, candy and soda), muffins, noodles, cereal, and sauces. (And I know that some of that has fats too, but I'm pointing out processed carbs here.). That would include those people switching to keto.
I don't think a diet where carbs are mainly processed or refined is unusual, especially beyond the MFP bubble.9 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »maureenkhilde wrote: »Keto. My personal opinion (not fact)? It's a stupid fad diet. How is staying so low on carbs that you end up skipping out on vegetables a good thing? If you want weight loss CICO is ultimately what can get you results.
I personally do a low carb diet. But you do not seem to know much about a diet you are bashing. On Keto there are quite a few Vegetables that you can eat on a regular basis. Really the ones that are off limits are starchy vegetables. And they are not on low carb diets either.
While you can have a limited variety, its low quantity. At least I thought so
I do tend to wonder how many people doing keto were vegetable fiends like some of us before undertaking it. And this isn't a jab at them, it's just thinking out loud. I know I eat a ridiculous amount of vegetables and fruits in a day. Most of the veggies I eat aren't even necessarily ones that aren't allowed on keto. My favorites are brussels, mushrooms, asparagus, collards, cauliflower, broccoli, zucchini, and spaghetti squash. The only favorites of mine not keto-friendly are butternut squash and potatoes. Tomatoes? Well, I like them in quantity. I could have had one or two on keto, but opted for more greens.
Anyway, when I was doing keto, the portions of these veggies I got to eat was quite small compared to what I'm used to.
I remember when we had that 10 servings a day challenge, I didn't have to make a change to my daily diet to make the requirement.
That is how i felt. I couldn't even get adequate fiber because i wanted a variety of veggies and couldn't get that on keto. And having a lb of spinach is not my ideal of good veggies.6 -
I respect the vegetable issue, but it’s not a problem for me on strict keto. I’m vegetarian as well, so often the base of my meal contains vegetables (cauliflower hash browns for example) and I pair that with sides of griddled or steamed greens.
Rocket or pea shoots are also incredibly low carb so big salads with lots of healthy fats from nuts and avocado are perfectly viable.
Just experiment with what works for you and don’t worry if you go over 20g per day as some people can eat more and remain in ketosis.3 -
svlofthouse wrote: »I respect the vegetable issue, but it’s not a problem for me on strict keto. I’m vegetarian as well, so often the base of my meal contains vegetables (cauliflower hash browns for example) and I pair that with sides of griddled or steamed greens.
Rocket or pea shoots are also incredibly low carb so big salads with lots of healthy fats from nuts and avocado are perfectly viable.
Just experiment with what works for you and don’t worry if you go over 20g per day as some people can eat more and remain in ketosis.
How many vegetable/fruit servings do you typically get daily, then? (I usually ballpark a serving as 80 grams.)
This is not a set-up: I'm also a vegetarian, but am one who'd feel challenged to eat as I prefer at low carb, let alone keto. I was kind of in tune with PPs saying that possibly people had different preferences about veggie servings, with the low carb/keto folks perhaps preferring a lower amount daily than others of us do. With your comment, I'm wondering what the comparison really is.
For my own part, it's a rare day when I eat fewer than 500g of veggies/fruit (in the traditional definition, things like greens, tomatoes, the brassicas, squash both summer & winter, eggplant, apples, oranges, etc. - not counting things that are vegetable sourced but more processed (examples: tofu, chili paste) or plant foods that are usually categorized outside the fruit & veggie terms (like nuts, seeds)). Often, I'm over 800g veggies/fruits, and occasionally over 1500g.
Do you have an idea what you're usually eating, on a grams/servings basis, as a comparison?3 -
@AnnPT77 I would say I eat two servings with a typical breakfast. That could be spinach and celery. Then lunch would usually have leeks, tomatoes or spinach baked into it whether it’s baked egg or tart. That would have a serving of salad or kale crisps on the side. Supper might be a salad bowl with 100g or rocket, 100g of pea shoots, an avocado, two eggs, nuts, butter and coconut oil.
Those veggies work for me feeling great and getting enough fibre!
A serving size would usually be about 100g because then the carbs are easier to calculate. I like routine so I’m more then happy to stick to a small range of veggies.
If I have any carbs left over as I build up my day, the natural response is to add in a few more veggies that I don’t eat as many of like red pepper or courgette as a treat!3 -
svlofthouse wrote: »@AnnPT77 I would say I eat two servings with a typical breakfast. That could be spinach and celery. Then lunch would usually have leeks, tomatoes or spinach baked into it whether it’s baked egg or tart. That would have a serving of salad or kale crisps on the side. Supper might be a salad bowl with 100g or rocket, 100g of pea shoots, an avocado, two eggs, nuts, butter and coconut oil.
Those veggies work for me feeling great and getting enough fibre!
A serving size would usually be about 100g because then the carbs are easier to calculate. I like routine so I’m more then happy to stick to a small range of veggies.
If I have any carbs left over as I build up my day, the natural response is to add in a few more veggies that I don’t eat as many of like red pepper or courgette as a treat!
That does sound like a sensible level!
While I think low carb or keto wouldn't be a good choice for me, as it would cut out or reduce many of my favorite veggies and (maybe especially) fruits, and I don't seem to have a medical or appetite-management reason to do that, I'm very much of a "you do you, I'll do me" mindset about eating patterns. I like to see everyone getting well-rounded nutrition, and you seem to be doing that.
I'd say I usually come in around 200g carbs daily +/-, most of it from fruit, veg, a little grain (oatmeal), the odd pita or tortilla, milk, and sometimes beer or wine. I eat a lot of legumes among my protein foods, which accounts for a fair amount of carbs. I eat eggs, but only rarely (just a tastes thing), not as often as you seem to.2 -
Yeah I’m certainly not evangelical - I just do what’s best to control my sleep disorder and PCOS3
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