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Keto diet = good or bad
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Suzyqk0205 wrote: »I DONOT eat pork, it causes inflammation in the body , pork is high in inflammatory omega-6 fats. Inflammation causes an immune response and slows down your metabolism.
Where are you getting that from? Because I don't believe there is any evidence to support that.6 -
All those "diets" I have done over the years were the worst thing I have done to myself. It takes a slow life change, a healthier meal plan and a little exercise. No fancy pills and promises from others - just listen to myself, make better life choices, prepare a meal plan for the next day, take it meal by meal, make full use of MFP and trust their advise. I haven't added 80 - 90 kg (200 pounds?) overnight, so I will not lose it within a month or two. About 26 kg down, lots more to go - but who is counting?5
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A nutritionist I really like (she's an RD and has an MS in Nutrition Biochemistry and Epidemiology, and she blogs and tweets under the name Nutrition Wonk), recently started a podcast where she and a partner (who is a PhD in Molecular Nutrition) discuss various popular diets and then try the diets for 2 weeks. They are currently doing paleo (I saw her tweets on it, which led me to the podcast), but the first one is keto, and I know another is DASH.
Introduction to the podcast, which is on iTunes, among other places: https://www.thenutritionwonk.com/single-post/2018/10/24/Introducing-N1-A-New-Nutrition-and-Diet-Podcast
I listened to the first episode on keto and thought it was excellent. (The second is where they discuss experiences on keto, the first is a discussion of current research on it, how it works, the various studies.)
Highly recommended!
If anyone else listens and likes the podcast, I'd be interested in starting a thread to react to the different episodes and the discussion, but in the meantime anyone interested in keto (for any reason), might want to check it out. I'll say it's very fair-minded/even-handed.
Relevant twitter:
https://twitter.com/NutritionWonk?lang=en
https://twitter.com/kcklatt?lang=en
I think this has the potential to be up there with Sigma Nutrition, which is probably my current favorite nutrition/fitness podcast. (I also really like FitCast, but that's not as nutrition focused.)
I'm trying to listen to it but her partner talks like such a valley girl that I am finding it hard to get through. He is is killing the word "like" with overuse.
I trust her take on things more so than him. He says he existed on "logs of mozzarella " for the two weeks he ate ketogenic. As a vegetarian, I don't think he ate a well formulated diet. I think most people who have success in the diet eat much better than him - no one wants to exist on mozzarella.... And then they excluded nuts because a Keto trial for diabetes treatment did...why?
I would like to know how much sodium they were eating. Both said they were eating adequate sodium but but had Keto flu which is just an electrolyte imbalance. Sounds like they needed more sodium. It may have been an impact on their energy levels too.
These were both young relatively healthy people. It was no surprise to me that the were not experiencing the benefits that people with IR would. They did not notice AI improvements in two weeks. That isn't surprising. Changes generally take longer, going GF did not touch my arthritis symptoms caused by celiac for months. improvements after just 2 weeks would be surprising.
As a celiac, their self consciousness towards eating different than everyone was immature - their perceived stress about it seemed extreme to me. Plus, as a ketoer, most are not eating all that differently unless the meal is very carb heavy.
I'm sure their experiences are not completely unique. Does their experience apply to others? Sure. Were their experiences a reflection of those who chose Keto, have success on it or enjoy it? No. Would I listen to them again? Probably not - her partner is not a good speaker.9 -
I am less interested in their personal experiences as the discussion of the studies, which was in the prior episode.3
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I am less interested in their personal experiences as the discussion of the studies, which was in the prior episode.
The main thing I remember thinking when I listened to that was.. I think it was in regards to the Virta study specifically... when they were saying how none of these studies have been designed in such a way to be able to determine if the results shown are down to keto or weight loss.
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Suzyqk0205 wrote: »I DONOT eat pork, it causes inflammation in the body , pork is high in inflammatory omega-6 fats. Inflammation causes an immune response and slows down your metabolism.
I eat pork and have NO issues with inflammtion in my body and I have RA, nor has it slowed down my metabolism. I dont eat a lot because Im not a big pork eater. but never had an issue with it. I think it will be an individual issue for certain people and not the mass population.
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The issue with omega 6 is balance of 3 to 6, so IMO there's no need to avoid foods with omega 6 (and chicken has a much higher amount of 6 than 3 too, but similarly the total amount of 6 is not that high).
How much 6 vs. 3 pork has likely depends on how it is raised (I know that makes a difference in beef). That said, I checked a serving of pork loin on Cron, and it has a small enough amount of 6 that I personally wouldn't worry about it. The main reason people's balances are out of whack (if you think that matters, I personally think it might) is industrial seed oils, including the use in many packaged products.6 -
A word on the personal experience of the podcasters since I think something was misunderstood upthread and I missed a post:
Kevin's RA was *worsened* by keto, he wasn't already bad, and looking for it to improve. So saying that he didn't keto long enough to experience benefits makes no sense in the context of what happened to him.
I keto'ed for six weeks. Similarly, my psoriatic arthritis worsened while eating that way. I was hoping for improvement with my migraines. They also worsened.
As usual, I suppose that the answer from keto proponents is always going to be that the results you want to get are always going to be had if you had just done it for a bit longer than you'd done no matter how long you had done it.
No thank you, I was in agony, and six weeks was enough. The day I went back to my normal way of eating, I felt better after my breakfast oatmeal.12 -
Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
They did address energy levels too. They felt slower and used their lack of energy as a hunger cue since their hunger lessened a fair bit. Overall, they said energy was less, which was why I suspected an electrolyte imbalance.1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
They did address energy levels too. They felt slower and used their lack of energy as a hunger cue since their hunger lessened a fair bit. Overall, they said energy was less, which was why I suspected an electrolyte imbalance.
That isn't always the case. I always felt tired and hungry during my keto days and i consume over 6000mg of sodium a day.7 -
I don't have any serious health issues, but I like the keto WOE. I started keto in late September to lose 40 lb. I track carbs and calories. So far, I've lost 26 lb., but I was really surprised when I noticed, after only a couple of weeks, that my back/hip pain and shoulder pain were greatly diminished. That's a big plus for me! My daughter also decided to try keto and has lost 17 lb. since the beginning of November. She's excited to have a lot more energy. I suspect I will continue with keto indefinitely. Occasionally, I still have a bite or two of a pie or cake or eat a small cookie; I just avoid full portions of sweets. I'm losing weight to feel better, not to punish myself. BTW, there are plenty of low carb desert recipes, bread recipes, tortilla and pizza recipes, and some are pretty good--especially after you haven't had any real sugar or wheat flour for a while. I get to eat filling food, and I don't suffer from hunger. That's another plus.5
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
They did address energy levels too. They felt slower and used their lack of energy as a hunger cue since their hunger lessened a fair bit. Overall, they said energy was less, which was why I suspected an electrolyte imbalance.
That isn't always the case. I always felt tired and hungry during my keto days and i consume over 6000mg of sodium a day.
True, I know. Fatigue and hunger is most commonly attributed to not getting enough sodium. Usually 3000-5000 mg is enough but some go well over 7000 mg before it is enough and the fatigue, weakness and brain fog goes.
A bit less... pep in the muscles is common during HIIT and such, but overall fatigue without low electrolytes is not that common.
10 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
They did address energy levels too. They felt slower and used their lack of energy as a hunger cue since their hunger lessened a fair bit. Overall, they said energy was less, which was why I suspected an electrolyte imbalance.
That isn't always the case. I always felt tired and hungry during my keto days and i consume over 6000mg of sodium a day.
True, I know. Fatigue and hunger is most commonly attributed to not getting enough sodium. Usually 3000-5000 mg is enough but some go well over 7000 mg before it is enough and the fatigue, weakness and brain fog goes.
A bit less... pep in the muscles is common during HIIT and such, but overall fatigue without low electrolytes is not that common.
Couldn't the fatigue and hunger be attributed to something other than electrolytes, like perhaps some individuals naturally do better on a more moderate (or at least not keto) carb level?
Is there something definitive to read about what is common or typical when someone is starting to do keto? Are there statistics on that out there somewhere?12 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
They did address energy levels too. They felt slower and used their lack of energy as a hunger cue since their hunger lessened a fair bit. Overall, they said energy was less, which was why I suspected an electrolyte imbalance.
That isn't always the case. I always felt tired and hungry during my keto days and i consume over 6000mg of sodium a day.
True, I know. Fatigue and hunger is most commonly attributed to not getting enough sodium. Usually 3000-5000 mg is enough but some go well over 7000 mg before it is enough and the fatigue, weakness and brain fog goes.
Citation needed
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
They did address energy levels too. They felt slower and used their lack of energy as a hunger cue since their hunger lessened a fair bit. Overall, they said energy was less, which was why I suspected an electrolyte imbalance.
That isn't always the case. I always felt tired and hungry during my keto days and i consume over 6000mg of sodium a day.
True, I know. Fatigue and hunger is most commonly attributed to not getting enough sodium. Usually 3000-5000 mg is enough but some go well over 7000 mg before it is enough and the fatigue, weakness and brain fog goes.
A bit less... pep in the muscles is common during HIIT and such, but overall fatigue without low electrolytes is not that common.
This is incredibly variable and dependent on the individual and the situation. A number of programs implement a gross calculation based on sweat weight - replacing ~500 mg sodium for every pound of sweat generated. They estimate this loss during training phases and supplement with Gatorade and salt pills.2 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
They did address energy levels too. They felt slower and used their lack of energy as a hunger cue since their hunger lessened a fair bit. Overall, they said energy was less, which was why I suspected an electrolyte imbalance.
That isn't always the case. I always felt tired and hungry during my keto days and i consume over 6000mg of sodium a day.
True, I know. Fatigue and hunger is most commonly attributed to not getting enough sodium. Usually 3000-5000 mg is enough but some go well over 7000 mg before it is enough and the fatigue, weakness and brain fog goes.
A bit less... pep in the muscles is common during HIIT and such, but overall fatigue without low electrolytes is not that common.
Couldn't the fatigue and hunger be attributed to something other than electrolytes, like perhaps some individuals naturally do better on a more moderate (or at least not keto) carb level?
Is there something definitive to read about what is common or typical when someone is starting to do keto? Are there statistics on that out there somewhere?
Sure it could. It happens. It just is usually caused by low electrolytes. Note the word "usually".
Most keto'ers have steadier energy, which is often felt to be an overall higher energy level, and a reduced appetite on keto. Not everyone experiences that, but it is the more common reaction.
My guess, and this is only a guess, is that the metabolically healthy, active and/or young will be less likely to experience an improved energy level/steadiness. If one experiences reduced energy on a high fat diet, that would seem to suggest that they cannot metabolically use fats for fuel as well as others can. Sort of like how I have lower and less steady energy when I have a lot of carbs - my body can't metabolically handle the glucose as well as it should.
Definitive read? Perhaps the virta study? It is just people with T2D though. A study that applies to all? Doubtful.
As someone who has read widely on the subject for 5 years, I have seen that there is a normal reaction to keto for various groups. Improved energy or neutral energy and a reduced appetite is the norm. When people complain of low energy and then increase their sodium intake, the low energy almost always goes away. Neutral or less "pep" in terms of energy during exercise is pretty normal for the first few weeks to months.8 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
They did address energy levels too. They felt slower and used their lack of energy as a hunger cue since their hunger lessened a fair bit. Overall, they said energy was less, which was why I suspected an electrolyte imbalance.
That isn't always the case. I always felt tired and hungry during my keto days and i consume over 6000mg of sodium a day.
True, I know. Fatigue and hunger is most commonly attributed to not getting enough sodium. Usually 3000-5000 mg is enough but some go well over 7000 mg before it is enough and the fatigue, weakness and brain fog goes.
A bit less... pep in the muscles is common during HIIT and such, but overall fatigue without low electrolytes is not that common.
This is incredibly variable and dependent on the individual and the situation. A number of programs implement a gross calculation based on sweat weight - replacing ~500 mg sodium for every pound of sweat generated. They estimate this loss during training phases and supplement with Gatorade and salt pills.
You are saying that sodium needs vary? I agree.
Most keto'ers need 3000-5000 mg of sodium a day... this is starting to be seen as a recommended intake for everyone. Some will do fine on less, and others will need more. More is more common due to glycogen loss and lower insulin levels.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Addendum to my earlier post:
Energy levels and performance are two different things, and I believe in the podcast the hosts addressed performance, not energy levels.
I replaced electrolytes and had no problem with energy levels. I did have problems with performance. I had to slow my walking pace because I couldn't keep up my usual pace for my usual duration. I couldn't do as many reps as I had been doing when I was lifting weights and made slower progress than normal.
Then again, as I had previously stated, I also felt horrible during this time with issues with joint pain and chronic migraine. I'm sure that played a part in why I wasn't able to perform my best as well.
Furthermore, since I am also a vegetarian, I took particular note when Kevin mentioned being one also. He didn't set out to only eat mozzarella, and explained quite clearly in the podcast that boredom and limited protein sources were in play here.
They did address energy levels too. They felt slower and used their lack of energy as a hunger cue since their hunger lessened a fair bit. Overall, they said energy was less, which was why I suspected an electrolyte imbalance.
That isn't always the case. I always felt tired and hungry during my keto days and i consume over 6000mg of sodium a day.
True, I know. Fatigue and hunger is most commonly attributed to not getting enough sodium. Usually 3000-5000 mg is enough but some go well over 7000 mg before it is enough and the fatigue, weakness and brain fog goes.
A bit less... pep in the muscles is common during HIIT and such, but overall fatigue without low electrolytes is not that common.
Couldn't the fatigue and hunger be attributed to something other than electrolytes, like perhaps some individuals naturally do better on a more moderate (or at least not keto) carb level?
Is there something definitive to read about what is common or typical when someone is starting to do keto? Are there statistics on that out there somewhere?
Sure it could. It happens. It just is usually caused by low electrolytes. Note the word "usually".
Most keto'ers have steadier energy, which is often felt to be an overall higher energy level, and a reduced appetite on keto. Not everyone experiences that, but it is the more common reaction.
My guess, and this is only a guess, is that the metabolically healthy, active and/or young will be less likely to experience an improved energy level/steadiness. If one experiences reduced energy on a high fat diet, that would seem to suggest that they cannot metabolically use fats for fuel as well as others can. Sort of like how I have lower and less steady energy when I have a lot of carbs - my body can't metabolically handle the glucose as well as it should.
Definitive read? Perhaps the virta study? It is just people with T2D though. A study that applies to all? Doubtful.
As someone who has read widely on the subject for 5 years, I have seen that there is a normal reaction to keto for various groups. Improved energy or neutral energy and a reduced appetite is the norm. When people complain of low energy and then increase their sodium intake, the low energy almost always goes away. Neutral or less "pep" in terms of energy during exercise is pretty normal for the first few weeks to months.
In almost all the keto studies I have seen, whether diet or training related, there is significant variation amongst the group members. Its when you take a mean average that it shows the results you describe.
The steadier energy thing generally doesn't have a control group of healthy or nutrient dense foods. Its generally the SAD diet vs keto. And of all the people i have coached and discussed diet with, only the ones who ate like crap had energy issues.6
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