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Intermittent fasting - Dr Jason Fung
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This thread is about Fung's book Diabetes Code, which is about reversing T2D with LCHF, IF and (hopefully) weight loss.
The book is not about weight loss for the average healthy person.6 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »
Fixed it for ya.Fasting is an may possibly be an effective way to reverse insulin resistance along with a LCHF diet. Fung just published something in the BMJ on it.An article on it:
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/09/health/diabetes-fasting-study/index.html?fbclid=IwAR16JDXhm3d5u8Y2E6ycjbPmFh18ZNhM0pRJwkJbauXqQJ5bJ0uO3XayTPo
The study:
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2017-221854.full 9
Therapeutic use of intermittent fasting for people with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin
Summary
This case series documents three patients referred to the Intensive Dietary Management clinic in Toronto, Canada, for insulin-dependent type 2 diabetes. It demonstrates the effectiveness of therapeutic fasting to reverse their insulin resistance, resulting in cessation of insulin therapy while maintaining control of their blood sugars. In addition, these patients were also able to lose significant amounts of body weight, reduce their waist circumference and also reduce their glycated haemoglobin level.
This n of 3 case series can also be appropriately titled:
Therapeutic use of weight loss with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin.
To the OP, yeah Fung is a quack
And the next study?
Science requires that results be reproducible by other researchers.
My two posts basically had two different researchers and doctors getting the same results.14 -
nm5
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This thread is about Fung's book Diabetes Code, which is about reversing T2D with LCHF, IF and (hopefully) weight loss.
The book is not about weight loss for the average healthy person.
I have read, ok listened to the "Obesity Code" interesting, but misguided. We know weight loss improves insulin sensitivity in MOST people, not everyone. That is a dual edged sword. The muscle becomes more sensitive, but so do the fat cells. On the flip side we have seen, in some studies, that after weight loss there is an increase in the burning of carbs for energy and an increase in storage of dietary fat. It's just the bodies way to make sure all available energy can be stored as effectively as possible. So, low carb, moderate carb, high carb, it really does not matter as far as insulin in concerned. It's about energy in general. There is also some research showing lchf diets may push insulin resistance. Data is mixed.6 -
psychod787 wrote: »I am waiting for anvilhead to post. He has a real hard on for this guy. Personal? Lol
Not personal, I just despise quacks who prostitute themselves and their profession in the name of profit. And Fung is a quack of the highest order. In that regard, I put him on the same level as Taubes (who's not even a doctor, he's a journalist), Dr. Oz, Mercola, and "Doctor" Berg (the quack chiropractor who has been fined and censured by the medical board in his state and ordered to stop dispensing woo). To me, they're like the Howard Sterns of the diet world - they know there's plenty of profit in being controversial and going against the mainstream, even if what they're peddling is complete crap.
We can start here with a scientific debunking of Fung's nonsense: https://www.myoleanfitness.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/
And we can go much deeper into the actual scientific truth about insulin here: https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/34 -
amberellen12 wrote: »I have watch a few of his YouTube videos and read one of his books. The Diabetic Code.
I’m interested in his claim that you have to fast to get your insulin down and after 36 hours you start using your stored body fat.
Anyone else read his work and claims? what do you think about it?
You are burning fat 24x7 whether that's dietary fat or stored fat.
You start using up your stored body fat whenever you are in a calorie deficit. That's all you need to do, it's perfectly normal and usual.
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I have not read the book, therefore I am not sure if your OP accurately represents the contents of his book.
You state:amberellen12 wrote: »you have to fast to get your insulin down and after 36 hours you start using your stored body fat.
Prima facie the quoted statement is either incorrect or extremely incomplete.
You use stored body fat whenever you consistently operate your body in a caloric deficit.
While I am fairly sure that after 36 hours of fasting you will be using stored body fat to fuel your body, I am also fairly sure that you will achieve a very similar fat utilization by applying ~7 days of 500 Cal deficits.
Coincidentally, I estimate 36 hours of fasting to be an application of a ~3500 Cal deficit.13 -
IF works for T2D and insulin resistant people. It also works for weight loss. I was stuck at a plateau for a month, weighing and logging everything and exercising regularly. MD I know talked me into trying IF - broke my plateau and reached my goal without problem while eating more calories over a weeks time. I do 5/2 (fast 2 days, eat 5). I have read his book - he is not a quack (remember the study data he included in his book). In fact the endocrinologist in the medical practice I go to uses IF for their insulin resistant patients with great success as well as the endocrinologist at the VA that I work at. There are a lot of opinions on here (opinions) - and it might not be for everyone - but there are studies to back up the claims. My husband cannot do it - he does better with HFLC (high fat low carb). Give it a try. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions41
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I also started with his videos, followed up by reading all 3 of his books. I lost 10 kg in 3 months, following his fasting and diet protocols. BF from 15 % down to 10. He radically altered my perception of diet and nutrition. His isn't the only game in town regarding IF and LCHF but I think he's brilliant. Just my two cents
What IF or any other of the popular diets do is reduce your calorie intake. Then you lose weight once your intake is less than your expenditure. It really is that simple.
The reason why they work is three fold.
1) Different eating regimes work on different people to help reduce cravings, some people like eating one huge meal a day, some like six smaller ones, some people like to graze others like intermittent fasting.
2) As soon as you start any diet, you start watching how much you eat, once you do that you learn when you eat, what triggers hunger for you and get better at controlling it.
3) Often when people are motivated to start a specific diet, they start exercising or at least being more active.
There is nothing wrong with IF, IF IT WORKS FOR YOU, if it helps you reduce cravings and the amount you eat then that is the one for you. If it doesn't work for you then try keto or south beach or simply eating less every meal.
For me the small plate diet worked well. I simply started using a smaller plate that lead me to eating less. I stopped snacking and every time I eat it is a sit down affair, no more snack foods or eating a sandwich on the run.
And IMHO anyone who publishes a scientific paper claiming some new breakthrough based on n=3 is a quack and the journal that publishes it is not worthy of any further consideration. With an n=3 all you can say is there might be something here worth taking a better look at, not STOP THE PRESSES MAJOR SCIENTIFIC BREAKTHROUGH THAT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE.29 -
Thank you everyone for all your input!!!
I’m always pretty open minded when I read any new plan and ask questions and look for input for people. That’s why I posted here to get your input.
What I’ve gotten from this thread is I should take the parts that I would follow. Ie Intermitent fasting... I’ve done 16/8 for several years and up it to 24 - 36 hours a couple times a week to break through this plateau I’m on.
I’ll never eat high fat diet just too many studies on how it clogs up your arteries. I’ll stay WFPB, whole foods plant base, with some meat but cut back on the calories.
I’ll also up my exercise. Get outside and get moving and dust that pilate bench off.
I will also not worry so much about my insulin spiking. I take it what Dr Fung wrote wasn’t the whole truth on how it works. Ie I don’t have to fast 36 hours before the body starts burning the stored fat. Wew!!! I didn’t like that thought.
Anything else?10 -
Just an aside... anyone prone to migraines should not fast for full days, and should slowly work up to an intermittent fast window that's small, even if you're eating low carb. I suffer from chronic migraines and had to fast once for a medical procedure and got one of the worst migraines I've ever had and discussed it with my neurologist (I see a specialist at a headache research center). He even explained how they've conducted studies on migraneurs during Ramadan so it's a known effect.
Anyway, just thought I'd throw this out there as advice to consider if you're a sufferer.20 -
psychod787 wrote: »I am waiting for anvilhead to post. He has a real hard on for this guy. Personal? Lol
Not personal, I just despise quacks who prostitute themselves and their profession in the name of profit. And Fung is a quack of the highest order. In that regard, I put him on the same level as Taubes (who's not even a doctor, he's a journalist), Dr. Oz, Mercola, and "Doctor" Berg (the quack chiropractor who has been fined and censured by the medical board in his state and ordered to stop dispensing woo). To me, they're like the Howard Sterns of the diet world - they know there's plenty of profit in being controversial and going against the mainstream, even if what they're peddling is complete crap.
We can start here with a scientific debunking of Fung's nonsense: https://www.myoleanfitness.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/
And we can go much deeper into the actual scientific truth about insulin here: https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Love your post man! Kind of funny, one of the signs of type 2 dm, is WEIGHTLOSS! Many t2dm's gain weight when they start insulin therapy. Not because of insulin directly, but because the body can now use the blood sugar in the body better. They gain because they are in a calorie surplus. Actually, that's one of the reasons I found out I am a type 2 meself! I started dropping weight, both fat and muscle mass. My body could not use my carbs for energy. Basically, went into ketosis without knowing.
**edit** We see many untreated type2 dm patients become Hyperphagic. Why? Then again, they are starving! Do I believe there might be an application for time restrictions eating, not calling IF anymore, for treating type2? Maybe. Make sense to a lay person like me. The less time you can tax the pancreas, the better. We also know that people are far more sensitive to their insulin in the am after "fasting" overnight. More research is truly needed imho.
**EDIT2** Kind of a strange thing. By being a type 2, it has pushed me into making "better" food choices. Sure I eat 40-45% carbs most days, but the choices are different. Higher veggies, some fruit, higher fiber higher protein foods in general. It stears me away from highly processed Hyperpalitable foods. Don't get me wrong i still indulge occassionally, but in general stick to a whole foods/flexible dietary style. It might actually help with maintenance. Who knows?1 -
amberellen12 wrote: »I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?
It is the typical response to anyone who is a proponent of keto, LCHF or fasting. If they are an MD they are a quack. If they are a journalist that has spent years studying other studies any any flaws or basis they may have they are labeled a journalist that lacks an MD.
Some of these doctors and journalists are very well educated and have spent years of study on this WOE. That doesn't mean they are right but we don't need to go very far back to find bad dietary advice given by other MD's dietitians and politicians. Disagree with research or bias or put forth an opinion that you feel is superior. To just throw a derogatory label on someone is a disservice to all. Okay @AnvilHead it's all yours.34 -
amberellen12 wrote: »I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?
It is the typical response to anyone who is a proponent of keto, LCHF or fasting. If they are an MD they are a quack. If they are a journalist that has spent years studying other studies any any flaws or basis they may have they are labeled a journalist that lacks an MD.
Some of these doctors and journalists are very well educated and have spent years of study on this WOE. That doesn't mean they are right but we don't need to go very far back to find bad dietary advice given by other MD's dietitians and politicians. Disagree with research or bias or put forth an opinion that you feel is superior. To just throw a derogatory label on someone is a disservice to all. Okay @AnvilHead it's all yours.
Nobody is being called a "quack" simply because they are a proponent of keto, LCHF, or fasting. That's reserved for people who use inflated claims to promote those ways of eating or people who are using it as a vehicle for a quick cash grab from people who are longing to lose weight or manage other health conditions.22 -
janejellyroll wrote: »amberellen12 wrote: »I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?
It is the typical response to anyone who is a proponent of keto, LCHF or fasting. If they are an MD they are a quack. If they are a journalist that has spent years studying other studies any any flaws or basis they may have they are labeled a journalist that lacks an MD.
Some of these doctors and journalists are very well educated and have spent years of study on this WOE. That doesn't mean they are right but we don't need to go very far back to find bad dietary advice given by other MD's dietitians and politicians. Disagree with research or bias or put forth an opinion that you feel is superior. To just throw a derogatory label on someone is a disservice to all. Okay @AnvilHead it's all yours.
Nobody is being called a "quack" simply because they are a proponent of keto, LCHF, or fasting. That's reserved for people who use inflated claims to promote those ways of eating or people who are using it as a vehicle for a quick cash grab from people who are longing to lose weight or manage other health conditions.
I did a quick check (I have watched some interviews but have not read his books) and most of what I could find on Dr. Fung is free. He does have paid or premium membership section of his site but I don't see a problem with that. He has written three books and I have no problem with that. So if he is making a "a cash grab" is this from a source that I have missed above? Not arguing but asking because I am curious.18 -
janejellyroll wrote: »amberellen12 wrote: »I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?
It is the typical response to anyone who is a proponent of keto, LCHF or fasting. If they are an MD they are a quack. If they are a journalist that has spent years studying other studies any any flaws or basis they may have they are labeled a journalist that lacks an MD.
Some of these doctors and journalists are very well educated and have spent years of study on this WOE. That doesn't mean they are right but we don't need to go very far back to find bad dietary advice given by other MD's dietitians and politicians. Disagree with research or bias or put forth an opinion that you feel is superior. To just throw a derogatory label on someone is a disservice to all. Okay @AnvilHead it's all yours.
Nobody is being called a "quack" simply because they are a proponent of keto, LCHF, or fasting. That's reserved for people who use inflated claims to promote those ways of eating or people who are using it as a vehicle for a quick cash grab from people who are longing to lose weight or manage other health conditions.
I did a quick check (I have watched some interviews but have not read his books) and most of what I could find on Dr. Fung is free. He does have paid or premium membership section of his site but I don't see a problem with that. He has written three books and I have no problem with that. So if he is making a "a cash grab" is this from a source that I have missed above? Not arguing but asking because I am curious.
I wasn't accusing Dr. Fung of making a cash grab (although this does seem like it is generating some significant income for him). When I hear Fung being called a quack, it's usually related to the quality of the evidence he is using for his claims, his insistence that his way is the only true method for weight loss, or his argument that restricting calories won't result in weight loss.18 -
IF works for T2D and insulin resistant people. It also works for weight loss. I was stuck at a plateau for a month, weighing and logging everything and exercising regularly. MD I know talked me into trying IF - broke my plateau and reached my goal without problem while eating more calories over a weeks time. I do 5/2 (fast 2 days, eat 5). I have read his book - he is not a quack (remember the study data he included in his book). In fact the endocrinologist in the medical practice I go to uses IF for their insulin resistant patients with great success as well as the endocrinologist at the VA that I work at. There are a lot of opinions on here (opinions) - and it might not be for everyone - but there are studies to back up the claims. My husband cannot do it - he does better with HFLC (high fat low carb). Give it a try. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions
if you do 5:2 which means 5 days of maintenance calories and 2 days of like 500 calories you are creating a deficit whether you realize that or not. Ive done IF all my life and I have gained weight,lost weight and now Im maintaining all still doing IF. I at one point stopped doing IF and was told eating breakfast would boost my metabolism. nope didnt lose any more fat or weight compared to fasting. no one is saying that IF doesnt work for insulin resistance. but you still need a deficit of calories to lose weight. IF works for weight loss IF you are in a deficit of calories, I am living proof that you can gain weight and maintain weight by fasting. all due to intake of calories.
and a plateau is 6-8 weeks of no weight so did you go that long without any weight loss? you didnt lose weight eating more calories than you burned. you created a deficit. if you didnt eat at all those 5 days (which is not how 5:2 is normally done) that means you had NO calories for those 2 days and had calories the next 5 which means deficit. you may have ate more the 5 days but the 2 days with little to no calories means you were in deficit wich means weight loss happens.
if you were in a true plateau and lost doing IF then you were eating more than you thought before you started if and eating less.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »amberellen12 wrote: »I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?
It is the typical response to anyone who is a proponent of keto, LCHF or fasting. If they are an MD they are a quack. If they are a journalist that has spent years studying other studies any any flaws or basis they may have they are labeled a journalist that lacks an MD.
Some of these doctors and journalists are very well educated and have spent years of study on this WOE. That doesn't mean they are right but we don't need to go very far back to find bad dietary advice given by other MD's dietitians and politicians. Disagree with research or bias or put forth an opinion that you feel is superior. To just throw a derogatory label on someone is a disservice to all. Okay @AnvilHead it's all yours.
Nobody is being called a "quack" simply because they are a proponent of keto, LCHF, or fasting. That's reserved for people who use inflated claims to promote those ways of eating or people who are using it as a vehicle for a quick cash grab from people who are longing to lose weight or manage other health conditions.
I did a quick check (I have watched some interviews but have not read his books) and most of what I could find on Dr. Fung is free. He does have paid or premium membership section of his site but I don't see a problem with that. He has written three books and I have no problem with that. So if he is making a "a cash grab" is this from a source that I have missed above? Not arguing but asking because I am curious.
I wasn't accusing Dr. Fung of making a cash grab (although this does seem like it is generating some significant income for him). When I hear Fung being called a quack, it's usually related to the quality of the evidence he is using for his claims, his insistence that his way is the only true method for weight loss, or his argument that restricting calories won't result in weight loss.
Fair enough. When I think of cash grab Dr. Berg is who comes to mind for me. Not saying he is bad or wrong but I get a kind of creepy vibe from him. There, hows that for a scientific approach to judging someones work!2 -
amberellen12 wrote: »I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?
It is the typical response to anyone who is a proponent of keto, LCHF or fasting. If they are an MD they are a quack. If they are a journalist that has spent years studying other studies any any flaws or basis they may have they are labeled a journalist that lacks an MD.
Some of these doctors and journalists are very well educated and have spent years of study on this WOE. That doesn't mean they are right but we don't need to go very far back to find bad dietary advice given by other MD's dietitians and politicians. Disagree with research or bias or put forth an opinion that you feel is superior. To just throw a derogatory label on someone is a disservice to all. Okay @AnvilHead it's all yours.
fung also said that one of his study subjects had an A1C of like 7+ and that with his diet this person could forgo insulin asap and he would be fine. he told the patient to cut the insulin cold turkey.That to me is asking for trouble. he also said that diabetes can be cured. it cant be cured because once you gain weight again and so on it can come back. people have and do lower their insulin and IR just by losing weight. insulin also has been shown to improve in a calorie deficit as well.
he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
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amberellen12 wrote: »I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?
It is the typical response to anyone who is a proponent of keto, LCHF or fasting. If they are an MD they are a quack. If they are a journalist that has spent years studying other studies any any flaws or basis they may have they are labeled a journalist that lacks an MD.
Some of these doctors and journalists are very well educated and have spent years of study on this WOE. That doesn't mean they are right but we don't need to go very far back to find bad dietary advice given by other MD's dietitians and politicians. Disagree with research or bias or put forth an opinion that you feel is superior. To just throw a derogatory label on someone is a disservice to all. Okay @AnvilHead it's all yours.
Lyle McDonald is a keto proponent and well respected within the diet and fitness field...nobody is calling him a quack...mostly because he doesn't make outrageous claims about the diet or push it as the only way or say nonsensical things like you must fast for 36 hours to stop producing insulin before you can start burning body fat.22
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