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Intermittent fasting - Dr Jason Fung
amberellen12
Posts: 248 Member
in Debate Club
I have watch a few of his YouTube videos and read one of his books. The Diabetic Code.
I’m interested in his claim that you have to fast to get your insulin down and after 36 hours you start using your stored body fat.
Anyone else read his work and claims? what do you think about it?
I’m interested in his claim that you have to fast to get your insulin down and after 36 hours you start using your stored body fat.
Anyone else read his work and claims? what do you think about it?
39
Replies
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QUACK! NEXT! good nepho md. Bad dietary. So not really a quack. Just should stick to kidneys.20
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psychod787 wrote: »QUACK! NEXT! good nepho md. Bad dietary. So not really a quack. Just should stick to kidneys.
Because his dietary advice is aimed at T2D's it can be quite helpful. For someone just looking to lose weight, his plan is not as applicable or helpful, IMO.
Fasting is an effective way to reverse insulin resistance along with a LCHF diet. Fung just published something in the BMJ on it.
An article on it:
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/09/health/diabetes-fasting-study/index.html?fbclid=IwAR16JDXhm3d5u8Y2E6ycjbPmFh18ZNhM0pRJwkJbauXqQJ5bJ0uO3XayTPo
The study:
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2017-221854.full 9
Therapeutic use of intermittent fasting for people with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin
Summary
This case series documents three patients referred to the Intensive Dietary Management clinic in Toronto, Canada, for insulin-dependent type 2 diabetes. It demonstrates the effectiveness of therapeutic fasting to reverse their insulin resistance, resulting in cessation of insulin therapy while maintaining control of their blood sugars. In addition, these patients were also able to lose significant amounts of body weight, reduce their waist circumference and also reduce their glycated haemoglobin level.
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This study says the same thing:
https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(18)30253-5
Early Time-Restricted Feeding Improves Insulin Sensitivity, Blood Pressure, and Oxidative Stress Even without Weight Loss in Men with Prediabetes
Summary
Intermittent fasting (IF) improves cardiometabolic health; however, it is unknown whether these effects are due solely to weight loss. We conducted the first supervised controlled feeding trial to test whether IF has benefits independent of weight loss by feeding participants enough food to maintain their weight. Our proof-of-concept study also constitutes the first trial of early time-restricted feeding (eTRF), a form of IF that involves eating early in the day to be in alignment with circadian rhythms in metabolism. Men with prediabetes were randomized to eTRF (6-hr feeding period, with dinner before 3 p.m.) or a control schedule (12-hr feeding period) for 5 weeks and later crossed over to the other schedule. eTRF improved insulin sensitivity, β cell responsiveness, blood pressure, oxidative stress, and appetite. We demonstrate for the first time in humans that eTRF improves some aspects of cardiometabolic health and that IF’s effects are not solely due to weight loss.21 -
I use the very low carb diet (ketogenic) to control my BG and improve insulin sensitivity. I do IF as well, but don't tend to fast for a day - just 16-20 hours.
I like IF for health. I haven't found it to help with weight loss, but that is just my n=1. YMMV
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Fixed it for ya.Fasting is an may possibly be an effective way to reverse insulin resistance along with a LCHF diet. Fung just published something in the BMJ on it.An article on it:
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/09/health/diabetes-fasting-study/index.html?fbclid=IwAR16JDXhm3d5u8Y2E6ycjbPmFh18ZNhM0pRJwkJbauXqQJ5bJ0uO3XayTPo
The study:
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2017-221854.full 9
Therapeutic use of intermittent fasting for people with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin
Summary
This case series documents three patients referred to the Intensive Dietary Management clinic in Toronto, Canada, for insulin-dependent type 2 diabetes. It demonstrates the effectiveness of therapeutic fasting to reverse their insulin resistance, resulting in cessation of insulin therapy while maintaining control of their blood sugars. In addition, these patients were also able to lose significant amounts of body weight, reduce their waist circumference and also reduce their glycated haemoglobin level.
This n of 3 case series can also be appropriately titled:
Therapeutic use of weight loss with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin.
To the OP, yeah Fung is a quack22 -
Fixed it for ya.Fasting is an may possibly be an effective way to reverse insulin resistance along with a LCHF diet. Fung just published something in the BMJ on it.An article on it:
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/09/health/diabetes-fasting-study/index.html?fbclid=IwAR16JDXhm3d5u8Y2E6ycjbPmFh18ZNhM0pRJwkJbauXqQJ5bJ0uO3XayTPo
The study:
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2017-221854.full 9
Therapeutic use of intermittent fasting for people with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin
Summary
This case series documents three patients referred to the Intensive Dietary Management clinic in Toronto, Canada, for insulin-dependent type 2 diabetes. It demonstrates the effectiveness of therapeutic fasting to reverse their insulin resistance, resulting in cessation of insulin therapy while maintaining control of their blood sugars. In addition, these patients were also able to lose significant amounts of body weight, reduce their waist circumference and also reduce their glycated haemoglobin level.
This n of 3 case series can also be appropriately titled:
Therapeutic use of weight loss with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin.
To the OP, yeah Fung is a quack
And the next study?7 -
I am waiting for anvilhead to post. He has a real hard on for this guy. Personal? Lol13
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I also started with his videos, followed up by reading all 3 of his books. I lost 10 kg in 3 months, following his fasting and diet protocols. BF from 15 % down to 10. He radically altered my perception of diet and nutrition. His isn't the only game in town regarding IF and LCHF but I think he's brilliant. Just my two cents36
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I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?12
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Fixed it for ya.Fasting is an may possibly be an effective way to reverse insulin resistance along with a LCHF diet. Fung just published something in the BMJ on it.An article on it:
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/09/health/diabetes-fasting-study/index.html?fbclid=IwAR16JDXhm3d5u8Y2E6ycjbPmFh18ZNhM0pRJwkJbauXqQJ5bJ0uO3XayTPo
The study:
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2017-221854.full 9
Therapeutic use of intermittent fasting for people with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin
Summary
This case series documents three patients referred to the Intensive Dietary Management clinic in Toronto, Canada, for insulin-dependent type 2 diabetes. It demonstrates the effectiveness of therapeutic fasting to reverse their insulin resistance, resulting in cessation of insulin therapy while maintaining control of their blood sugars. In addition, these patients were also able to lose significant amounts of body weight, reduce their waist circumference and also reduce their glycated haemoglobin level.
This n of 3 case series can also be appropriately titled:
Therapeutic use of weight loss with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin.
To the OP, yeah Fung is a quack
And the next study?
Science requires that results be reproducible by other researchers.13 -
Fixed it for ya.Fasting is an may possibly be an effective way to reverse insulin resistance along with a LCHF diet. Fung just published something in the BMJ on it.An article on it:
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/09/health/diabetes-fasting-study/index.html?fbclid=IwAR16JDXhm3d5u8Y2E6ycjbPmFh18ZNhM0pRJwkJbauXqQJ5bJ0uO3XayTPo
The study:
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2017-221854.full 9
Therapeutic use of intermittent fasting for people with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin
Summary
This case series documents three patients referred to the Intensive Dietary Management clinic in Toronto, Canada, for insulin-dependent type 2 diabetes. It demonstrates the effectiveness of therapeutic fasting to reverse their insulin resistance, resulting in cessation of insulin therapy while maintaining control of their blood sugars. In addition, these patients were also able to lose significant amounts of body weight, reduce their waist circumference and also reduce their glycated haemoglobin level.
This n of 3 case series can also be appropriately titled:
Therapeutic use of weight loss with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin.
To the OP, yeah Fung is a quack
And the next study?
Huh?4 -
psychod787 wrote: »I am waiting for anvilhead to post. He has a real hard on for this guy. Personal? Lol
I wish he would come along. He does have a treasure trove of info to answer the OP's questions.
OP - He is at odds with about 99% of scientists who work in health and nutrition on a number of his claims.20 -
I also started with his videos, followed up by reading all 3 of his books. I lost 10 kg in 3 months, following his fasting and diet protocols. BF from 15 % down to 10. He radically altered my perception of diet and nutrition. His isn't the only game in town regarding IF and LCHF but I think he's brilliant. Just my two cents
Well, first insulin is the single cause of weight gain. People forget fat gets stored directly as fat. It does not even need to be converted. People lose and maintain weight gain on any macro level. There is research that a moderate carb diet high in fiber helps with maintenance. I believe that the big difference in high carb vs low carb is protein. Lchf tends to be higher in protein and fiber. Both have high tef and satiety. Does IF do anything? Maybe. We need more research on it. I IF for hunger and satiety issues. I don't get hungry until after I eat. Lchf, higher carbs meals, it does not matter. As far as IDM, I actually contacted them. I was interested in their style for maintenance. When they found out I lost my weight already, they wanted nothing to do with me. Kind of raises red flags to me. Jmho.22 -
psychod787 wrote: »I also started with his videos, followed up by reading all 3 of his books. I lost 10 kg in 3 months, following his fasting and diet protocols. BF from 15 % down to 10. He radically altered my perception of diet and nutrition. His isn't the only game in town regarding IF and LCHF but I think he's brilliant. Just my two cents
Well, first insulin is the single cause of weight gain. People forget fat gets stored directly as fat. It does not even need to be converted. People lose and maintain weight gain on any macro level. There is research that a moderate carb diet high in fiber helps with maintenance. I believe that the big difference in high carb vs low carb is protein. Lchf tends to be higher in protein and fiber. Both have high tef and satiety. Does IF do anything? Maybe. We need more research on it. I IF for hunger and satiety issues. I don't get hungry until after I eat. Lchf, higher carbs meals, it does not matter. As far as IDM, I actually contacted them. I was interested in their style for maintenance. When they found out I lost my weight already, they wanted nothing to do with me. Kind of raises red flags to me. Jmho.
Insulin is also the thing that keeps you from starving to death even if you eat massive amounts of food. Doesn't matter how much food goes into your stomach and how much glucose gets into your bloodstream if none of your cells can use it.
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I also started with his videos, followed up by reading all 3 of his books. I lost 10 kg in 3 months, following his fasting and diet protocols. BF from 15 % down to 10. He radically altered my perception of diet and nutrition. His isn't the only game in town regarding IF and LCHF but I think he's brilliant. Just my two cents
Well, first insulin is the single cause of weight gain. People forget fat gets stored directly as fat. It does not even need to be converted. People lose and maintain weight gain on any macro level. There is research that a moderate carb diet high in fiber helps with maintenance. I believe that the big difference in high carb vs low carb is protein. Lchf tends to be higher in protein and fiber. Both have high tef and satiety. Does IF do anything? Maybe. We need more research on it. I IF for hunger and satiety issues. I don't get hungry until after I eat. Lchf, higher carbs meals, it does not matter. As far as IDM, I actually contacted them. I was interested in their style for maintenance. When they found out I lost my weight already, they wanted nothing to do with me. Kind of raises red flags to me. Jmho.
Insulin is also the thing that keeps you from starving to death even if you eat massive amounts of food. Doesn't matter how much food goes into your stomach and how much glucose gets into your bloodstream if none of your cells can use it.
Uh yeah. I know this, i was responding to why I think fung is misguided. I deal with type 1 diabetics. When they have really high blood sugars they lose weight. No insulin to provide energy.2 -
@Anvil_Head ❤️5
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Actually, hflc for type 1 diabetics might not be a bad thing. Type 2 diabetics usually have plenty of insulin. The muscle just can't use it properly.0
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L1zardQueen wrote: »@Anvil_Head ❤️
He’s very popular lately!5 -
4
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Fixed it for ya.Fasting is an may possibly be an effective way to reverse insulin resistance along with a LCHF diet. Fung just published something in the BMJ on it.An article on it:
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/09/health/diabetes-fasting-study/index.html?fbclid=IwAR16JDXhm3d5u8Y2E6ycjbPmFh18ZNhM0pRJwkJbauXqQJ5bJ0uO3XayTPo
The study:
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2017-221854.full 9
Therapeutic use of intermittent fasting for people with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin
Summary
This case series documents three patients referred to the Intensive Dietary Management clinic in Toronto, Canada, for insulin-dependent type 2 diabetes. It demonstrates the effectiveness of therapeutic fasting to reverse their insulin resistance, resulting in cessation of insulin therapy while maintaining control of their blood sugars. In addition, these patients were also able to lose significant amounts of body weight, reduce their waist circumference and also reduce their glycated haemoglobin level.
This n of 3 case series can also be appropriately titled:
Therapeutic use of weight loss with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin.
To the OP, yeah Fung is a quack
And the next study?
Huh?
From up thread:
https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(18)30253-54 -
This thread is about Fung's book Diabetes Code, which is about reversing T2D with LCHF, IF and (hopefully) weight loss.
The book is not about weight loss for the average healthy person.6 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »
Fixed it for ya.Fasting is an may possibly be an effective way to reverse insulin resistance along with a LCHF diet. Fung just published something in the BMJ on it.An article on it:
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/09/health/diabetes-fasting-study/index.html?fbclid=IwAR16JDXhm3d5u8Y2E6ycjbPmFh18ZNhM0pRJwkJbauXqQJ5bJ0uO3XayTPo
The study:
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2017-221854.full 9
Therapeutic use of intermittent fasting for people with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin
Summary
This case series documents three patients referred to the Intensive Dietary Management clinic in Toronto, Canada, for insulin-dependent type 2 diabetes. It demonstrates the effectiveness of therapeutic fasting to reverse their insulin resistance, resulting in cessation of insulin therapy while maintaining control of their blood sugars. In addition, these patients were also able to lose significant amounts of body weight, reduce their waist circumference and also reduce their glycated haemoglobin level.
This n of 3 case series can also be appropriately titled:
Therapeutic use of weight loss with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin.
To the OP, yeah Fung is a quack
And the next study?
Science requires that results be reproducible by other researchers.
My two posts basically had two different researchers and doctors getting the same results.14 -
nm5
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This thread is about Fung's book Diabetes Code, which is about reversing T2D with LCHF, IF and (hopefully) weight loss.
The book is not about weight loss for the average healthy person.
I have read, ok listened to the "Obesity Code" interesting, but misguided. We know weight loss improves insulin sensitivity in MOST people, not everyone. That is a dual edged sword. The muscle becomes more sensitive, but so do the fat cells. On the flip side we have seen, in some studies, that after weight loss there is an increase in the burning of carbs for energy and an increase in storage of dietary fat. It's just the bodies way to make sure all available energy can be stored as effectively as possible. So, low carb, moderate carb, high carb, it really does not matter as far as insulin in concerned. It's about energy in general. There is also some research showing lchf diets may push insulin resistance. Data is mixed.6 -
psychod787 wrote: »I am waiting for anvilhead to post. He has a real hard on for this guy. Personal? Lol
Not personal, I just despise quacks who prostitute themselves and their profession in the name of profit. And Fung is a quack of the highest order. In that regard, I put him on the same level as Taubes (who's not even a doctor, he's a journalist), Dr. Oz, Mercola, and "Doctor" Berg (the quack chiropractor who has been fined and censured by the medical board in his state and ordered to stop dispensing woo). To me, they're like the Howard Sterns of the diet world - they know there's plenty of profit in being controversial and going against the mainstream, even if what they're peddling is complete crap.
We can start here with a scientific debunking of Fung's nonsense: https://www.myoleanfitness.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/
And we can go much deeper into the actual scientific truth about insulin here: https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/34 -
amberellen12 wrote: »I have watch a few of his YouTube videos and read one of his books. The Diabetic Code.
I’m interested in his claim that you have to fast to get your insulin down and after 36 hours you start using your stored body fat.
Anyone else read his work and claims? what do you think about it?
You are burning fat 24x7 whether that's dietary fat or stored fat.
You start using up your stored body fat whenever you are in a calorie deficit. That's all you need to do, it's perfectly normal and usual.
18 -
I have not read the book, therefore I am not sure if your OP accurately represents the contents of his book.
You state:amberellen12 wrote: »you have to fast to get your insulin down and after 36 hours you start using your stored body fat.
Prima facie the quoted statement is either incorrect or extremely incomplete.
You use stored body fat whenever you consistently operate your body in a caloric deficit.
While I am fairly sure that after 36 hours of fasting you will be using stored body fat to fuel your body, I am also fairly sure that you will achieve a very similar fat utilization by applying ~7 days of 500 Cal deficits.
Coincidentally, I estimate 36 hours of fasting to be an application of a ~3500 Cal deficit.13 -
IF works for T2D and insulin resistant people. It also works for weight loss. I was stuck at a plateau for a month, weighing and logging everything and exercising regularly. MD I know talked me into trying IF - broke my plateau and reached my goal without problem while eating more calories over a weeks time. I do 5/2 (fast 2 days, eat 5). I have read his book - he is not a quack (remember the study data he included in his book). In fact the endocrinologist in the medical practice I go to uses IF for their insulin resistant patients with great success as well as the endocrinologist at the VA that I work at. There are a lot of opinions on here (opinions) - and it might not be for everyone - but there are studies to back up the claims. My husband cannot do it - he does better with HFLC (high fat low carb). Give it a try. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions41
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I also started with his videos, followed up by reading all 3 of his books. I lost 10 kg in 3 months, following his fasting and diet protocols. BF from 15 % down to 10. He radically altered my perception of diet and nutrition. His isn't the only game in town regarding IF and LCHF but I think he's brilliant. Just my two cents
What IF or any other of the popular diets do is reduce your calorie intake. Then you lose weight once your intake is less than your expenditure. It really is that simple.
The reason why they work is three fold.
1) Different eating regimes work on different people to help reduce cravings, some people like eating one huge meal a day, some like six smaller ones, some people like to graze others like intermittent fasting.
2) As soon as you start any diet, you start watching how much you eat, once you do that you learn when you eat, what triggers hunger for you and get better at controlling it.
3) Often when people are motivated to start a specific diet, they start exercising or at least being more active.
There is nothing wrong with IF, IF IT WORKS FOR YOU, if it helps you reduce cravings and the amount you eat then that is the one for you. If it doesn't work for you then try keto or south beach or simply eating less every meal.
For me the small plate diet worked well. I simply started using a smaller plate that lead me to eating less. I stopped snacking and every time I eat it is a sit down affair, no more snack foods or eating a sandwich on the run.
And IMHO anyone who publishes a scientific paper claiming some new breakthrough based on n=3 is a quack and the journal that publishes it is not worthy of any further consideration. With an n=3 all you can say is there might be something here worth taking a better look at, not STOP THE PRESSES MAJOR SCIENTIFIC BREAKTHROUGH THAT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE.29 -
Thank you everyone for all your input!!!
I’m always pretty open minded when I read any new plan and ask questions and look for input for people. That’s why I posted here to get your input.
What I’ve gotten from this thread is I should take the parts that I would follow. Ie Intermitent fasting... I’ve done 16/8 for several years and up it to 24 - 36 hours a couple times a week to break through this plateau I’m on.
I’ll never eat high fat diet just too many studies on how it clogs up your arteries. I’ll stay WFPB, whole foods plant base, with some meat but cut back on the calories.
I’ll also up my exercise. Get outside and get moving and dust that pilate bench off.
I will also not worry so much about my insulin spiking. I take it what Dr Fung wrote wasn’t the whole truth on how it works. Ie I don’t have to fast 36 hours before the body starts burning the stored fat. Wew!!! I didn’t like that thought.
Anything else?10
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