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Intermittent fasting - Dr Jason Fung
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CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »amberellen12 wrote: »I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?
It is the typical response to anyone who is a proponent of keto, LCHF or fasting. If they are an MD they are a quack. If they are a journalist that has spent years studying other studies any any flaws or basis they may have they are labeled a journalist that lacks an MD.
Some of these doctors and journalists are very well educated and have spent years of study on this WOE. That doesn't mean they are right but we don't need to go very far back to find bad dietary advice given by other MD's dietitians and politicians. Disagree with research or bias or put forth an opinion that you feel is superior. To just throw a derogatory label on someone is a disservice to all. Okay @AnvilHead it's all yours.
fung also said that one of his study subjects had an A1C of like 7+ and that with his diet this person could forgo insulin asap and he would be fine. he told the patient to cut the insulin cold turkey.That to me is asking for trouble. he also said that diabetes can be cured. it cant be cured because once you gain weight again and so on it can come back. people have and do lower their insulin and IR just by losing weight. insulin also has been shown to improve in a calorie deficit as well.
he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
The A1C 7+ story has to have more going on than what you have in one sentence I would hope but I will need to watch some of his videos to get a better idea. I would think bad advice would open up possible liability. The cured diabetes may not be the best term but to be fair would you call out a doctor that cured a patient of cancer because it may come back? I think the better term would be you can reverse diabetes with diet and it only stands to reason if a person takes up there old weight or lifestyle it would likely come back. I agree insulin should improve with any weight loss but I would give a slight edge to keto and LCHF due to the carb restriction and my bias toward keto. Either way I hope that someone who is pre diabetic or T2D will take some action to improve their numbers because it is a horrible road to go down. Anything that work I can support. My oldest Grandchild is a type 1 and I pray they can find a cure it at some point in his lifetime.6 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »amberellen12 wrote: »I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?
It is the typical response to anyone who is a proponent of keto, LCHF or fasting. If they are an MD they are a quack. If they are a journalist that has spent years studying other studies any any flaws or basis they may have they are labeled a journalist that lacks an MD.
Some of these doctors and journalists are very well educated and have spent years of study on this WOE. That doesn't mean they are right but we don't need to go very far back to find bad dietary advice given by other MD's dietitians and politicians. Disagree with research or bias or put forth an opinion that you feel is superior. To just throw a derogatory label on someone is a disservice to all. Okay @AnvilHead it's all yours.
fung also said that one of his study subjects had an A1C of like 7+ and that with his diet this person could forgo insulin asap and he would be fine. he told the patient to cut the insulin cold turkey.That to me is asking for trouble. he also said that diabetes can be cured. it cant be cured because once you gain weight again and so on it can come back. people have and do lower their insulin and IR just by losing weight. insulin also has been shown to improve in a calorie deficit as well.
he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
The A1C 7+ story has to have more going on than what you have in one sentence I would hope but I will need to watch some of his videos to get a better idea. I would think bad advice would open up possible liability. The cured diabetes may not be the best term but to be fair would you call out a doctor that cured a patient of cancer because it may come back? I think the better term would be you can reverse diabetes with diet and it only stands to reason if a person takes up there old weight or lifestyle it would likely come back. I agree insulin should improve with any weight loss but I would give a slight edge to keto and LCHF due to the carb restriction and my bias toward keto. Either way I hope that someone who is pre diabetic or T2D will take some action to improve their numbers because it is a horrible road to go down. Anything that work I can support. My oldest Grandchild is a type 1 and I pray they can find a cure it at some point in his lifetime.
Cancer and diabetes aren't equivalent conditions. One could have cancer and then become cancer free. That doesn't preclude the possibility that cancer may develop again, but it's very different from a condition like diabetes. You can *control* diabetes, in some instances, with diet. This isn't the same as a person who has cancer becoming cancer free.
It's attempting conflations like this that make people sometimes wary of certain styles of keto "evangelism."12 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »amberellen12 wrote: »I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?
It is the typical response to anyone who is a proponent of keto, LCHF or fasting. If they are an MD they are a quack. If they are a journalist that has spent years studying other studies any any flaws or basis they may have they are labeled a journalist that lacks an MD.
Some of these doctors and journalists are very well educated and have spent years of study on this WOE. That doesn't mean they are right but we don't need to go very far back to find bad dietary advice given by other MD's dietitians and politicians. Disagree with research or bias or put forth an opinion that you feel is superior. To just throw a derogatory label on someone is a disservice to all. Okay @AnvilHead it's all yours.
fung also said that one of his study subjects had an A1C of like 7+ and that with his diet this person could forgo insulin asap and he would be fine. he told the patient to cut the insulin cold turkey.That to me is asking for trouble. he also said that diabetes can be cured. it cant be cured because once you gain weight again and so on it can come back. people have and do lower their insulin and IR just by losing weight. insulin also has been shown to improve in a calorie deficit as well.
he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
The A1C 7+ story has to have more going on than what you have in one sentence I would hope but I will need to watch some of his videos to get a better idea. I would think bad advice would open up possible liability. The cured diabetes may not be the best term but to be fair would you call out a doctor that cured a patient of cancer because it may come back? I think the better term would be you can reverse diabetes with diet and it only stands to reason if a person takes up there old weight or lifestyle it would likely come back. I agree insulin should improve with any weight loss but I would give a slight edge to keto and LCHF due to the carb restriction and my bias toward keto. Either way I hope that someone who is pre diabetic or T2D will take some action to improve their numbers because it is a horrible road to go down. Anything that work I can support. My oldest Grandchild is a type 1 and I pray they can find a cure it at some point in his lifetime.
IME, oncologists don't say they've "cured" someone of a type of cancer that can move to a metastatic form after a long(ish) period of time. They may say that you're "in remission", "NED (no evidence of disease)", or at most "currently cancer free". Of course, I don't know every oncologist in the world; I only know my personal two oncologists pretty well, plus casually know a few others. I've been NED for 18 years now, but not cured. The most extreme positive statement I've heard from one of them - and I like it - was something like "risk of metastasis at this point probably statistically pretty close to someone who's never been diagnosed".
IME, level-headed expert professionals talk like level-headed expert professionals. If a doctor called someone with my type of cancer "cured" after a few years NED, I'd consider him/her likely a quack, or at least not a top-quality practitioner I'd choose to trust.21 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »amberellen12 wrote: »I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?
It is the typical response to anyone who is a proponent of keto, LCHF or fasting. If they are an MD they are a quack. If they are a journalist that has spent years studying other studies any any flaws or basis they may have they are labeled a journalist that lacks an MD.
Some of these doctors and journalists are very well educated and have spent years of study on this WOE. That doesn't mean they are right but we don't need to go very far back to find bad dietary advice given by other MD's dietitians and politicians. Disagree with research or bias or put forth an opinion that you feel is superior. To just throw a derogatory label on someone is a disservice to all. Okay @AnvilHead it's all yours.
fung also said that one of his study subjects had an A1C of like 7+ and that with his diet this person could forgo insulin asap and he would be fine. he told the patient to cut the insulin cold turkey.That to me is asking for trouble. he also said that diabetes can be cured. it cant be cured because once you gain weight again and so on it can come back. people have and do lower their insulin and IR just by losing weight. insulin also has been shown to improve in a calorie deficit as well.
he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
The A1C 7+ story has to have more going on than what you have in one sentence I would hope but I will need to watch some of his videos to get a better idea. I would think bad advice would open up possible liability. The cured diabetes may not be the best term but to be fair would you call out a doctor that cured a patient of cancer because it may come back? I think the better term would be you can reverse diabetes with diet and it only stands to reason if a person takes up there old weight or lifestyle it would likely come back. I agree insulin should improve with any weight loss but I would give a slight edge to keto and LCHF due to the carb restriction and my bias toward keto. Either way I hope that someone who is pre diabetic or T2D will take some action to improve their numbers because it is a horrible road to go down. Anything that work I can support. My oldest Grandchild is a type 1 and I pray they can find a cure it at some point in his lifetime.
Short term keto and lchf would have an advantage of maintaining insulin levels. But long term studies that i have seen haven't shown any difference for insulin levels.6 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »amberellen12 wrote: »I’m not understanding when the posters are saying he’s a quack. What is it about his claims you disagree with?
It is the typical response to anyone who is a proponent of keto, LCHF or fasting. If they are an MD they are a quack. If they are a journalist that has spent years studying other studies any any flaws or basis they may have they are labeled a journalist that lacks an MD.
Some of these doctors and journalists are very well educated and have spent years of study on this WOE. That doesn't mean they are right but we don't need to go very far back to find bad dietary advice given by other MD's dietitians and politicians. Disagree with research or bias or put forth an opinion that you feel is superior. To just throw a derogatory label on someone is a disservice to all. Okay @AnvilHead it's all yours.
fung also said that one of his study subjects had an A1C of like 7+ and that with his diet this person could forgo insulin asap and he would be fine. he told the patient to cut the insulin cold turkey.That to me is asking for trouble. he also said that diabetes can be cured. it cant be cured because once you gain weight again and so on it can come back. people have and do lower their insulin and IR just by losing weight. insulin also has been shown to improve in a calorie deficit as well.
he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
The A1C 7+ story has to have more going on than what you have in one sentence I would hope but I will need to watch some of his videos to get a better idea. I would think bad advice would open up possible liability. The cured diabetes may not be the best term but to be fair would you call out a doctor that cured a patient of cancer because it may come back? I think the better term would be you can reverse diabetes with diet and it only stands to reason if a person takes up there old weight or lifestyle it would likely come back. I agree insulin should improve with any weight loss but I would give a slight edge to keto and LCHF due to the carb restriction and my bias toward keto. Either way I hope that someone who is pre diabetic or T2D will take some action to improve their numbers because it is a horrible road to go down. Anything that work I can support. My oldest Grandchild is a type 1 and I pray they can find a cure it at some point in his lifetime.
there really isnt more to the story either. he thinks that his protocol cures many things,can help this or that and that people dont need insulin as insulin makes things worse. as for cancer you can go into remission and never get it again or it may come back 10x worse and give you an even shorter life span. Ive seen it happen with those that had cancer. it came back with a vengeance even though they were"cancer free" for years. and many here have lost weight and gotten off their insulin and many here do so with higher amounts of carbs. so no low carb/keto really doesnt have a slight edge. many here dont do keto and manage their diabetes quite well ingesting decent amounts of carbs.
not to mention type 2 can also be genetic(no matter how you eat),caused from certain meds and so on. its not always based on weight and diet although that can be a precursor.with my health issue if I dont watch my diet,take my meds and exercise I can develop type 2 even at a healthier weight because of my gene defect. yet diabetes really doesnt run in my family. my aunt developed it in her 70s which happens with many elderly people (weight isnt always the reason).
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cwolfman13 wrote: »Lyle McDonald is a keto proponent and well respected within the diet and fitness field...nobody is calling him a quack...mostly because he doesn't make outrageous claims about the diet or push it as the only way or say nonsensical things like you must fast for 36 hours to stop producing insulin before you can start burning body fat.
Lyle McDonald writes from an evidence-based standpoint rather than cherry-picking studies and trumping up false miracles like Fung and his ilk.
Also, I don't know how an IF thread got derailed into yet another keto thread, but I can't say I'm surprised.14 -
I've lost 139 pounds in the last 9 months eating low carb/moderate fat/high protein with OMAD intermittent fasting. I am insulin resistent. It works for me. I will continue this way of eating for the remainder of my life. I feel great, my lab work is perfect, it's the first time in 25 years I've been at a normal weight, I sleep better than I ever have, I have a consistent supply of energy, and even though I eat OMAD, I do not get hungry. You might not agree with this way of eating, but don't discount it for everyone.14
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karenlong7 wrote: »I've lost 139 pounds in the last 9 months eating low carb/moderate fat/high protein with OMAD intermittent fasting. I am insulin resistent. It works for me. I will continue this way of eating for the remainder of my life. I feel great, my lab work is perfect, it's the first time in 25 years I've been at a normal weight, I sleep better than I ever have, I have a consistent supply of energy, and even though I eat OMAD, I do not get hungry. You might not agree with this way of eating, but don't discount it for everyone.
People are not discounting this way of eating for everyone, they are pushing back against ridiculous claims that it can cure the sick and raise the dead (figuratively). Many people do very well using various forms of IF, but many of the health improvements are seen when people lose weight, regardless of how they do it.Also, I don't know how an IF thread got derailed into yet another keto thread, but I can't say I'm surprised.
Lately every article in my newsfeed involving IF couples it with keto - it's like the two things have somehow become intertwined to the point where one can't be discussed without the other. Not sure what the latest wave of woo out there is driving the train.14 -
It's become like Crossfit and paleo was a few years ago.Lately every article in my newsfeed involving IF couples it with keto - it's like the two things have somehow become intertwined to the point where one can't be discussed without the other. Not sure what the latest wave of woo out there is driving the train.
The funny thing is that I get branded as being "anti-IF", and I've been doing it a lot longer than most of these new converts who are so feverish about it. It works for me to control my calorie intake - I just don't believe in all the magical fairy tales about it. Why can't good enough be good enough without having to be a quasi-religious miracle?28 -
It's become like Crossfit and paleo was a few years ago.Lately every article in my newsfeed involving IF couples it with keto - it's like the two things have somehow become intertwined to the point where one can't be discussed without the other. Not sure what the latest wave of woo out there is driving the train.
The funny thing is that I get branded as being "anti-IF", and I've been doing it a lot longer than most of these new converts who are so feverish about it. It works for me to control my calorie intake - I just don't believe in all the magical fairy tales about it. Why can't good enough be good enough without having to be a quasi-religious miracle?
Exactly!2 -
It's become like Crossfit and paleo was a few years ago.Lately every article in my newsfeed involving IF couples it with keto - it's like the two things have somehow become intertwined to the point where one can't be discussed without the other. Not sure what the latest wave of woo out there is driving the train.
The funny thing is that I get branded as being "anti-IF", and I've been doing it a lot longer than most of these new converts who are so feverish about it. It works for me to control my calorie intake - I just don't believe in all the magical fairy tales about it. Why can't good enough be good enough without having to be a quasi-religious miracle?
Same. I've been breakfast skipping for years. I eat earlier than I used to, but I still have a pretty small eating window (6 hours). It just suits my appetite. I don't low carb.4 -
I haven't read Dr Fungs books but i have several articles on his website and seen a few articles. I don't like him because it seems he doesn't understand CICO. He "cites" examples of how the body would respond to a cookie vs fish and veggies. Of course no one would eat like that, so application doesn't apply. Its funny how hr didn't compare eating butter or pork rinds vs a steak and veggies.
He also leds people to believe that fasting will se how increase testostrone and help them gain more muscle (funny how small and non fit Dr Fung is). As it has been said, there is nothing anabolic about not eating. Muscle gains are driven by a traininh stimulous and protein turnover. What evidence there is about the muscle protein synthetic response, it more indicates that slightly more frequent meals may be better since consuming Leucine will drive MPS.
And lastly, even though he is an endocrinologist, it doesn't mean he understands nutritional science. Just like you wouldn't go to a dermatologist for cardic problems, why go to a doctor for nutrition advice. Most doctors have little to no formal training in the field. Heck, IIRC, Fung even jokes that he only took 1 basic biochemistry class.
So where would i get my advice? I look at true experts in the field: Brad Schoenfeld, PhD; Layne Norton, PhD; Eric Helms, PhD; Menno Hannselmann, PhD; James Kreiger, PhD, Lyle McDonald; etc... All of these people are educated, they have conducted multiple studies, most are competitive body builders and/or power lifters and they all have experience with getting people contest prep ready. So they have first hand experience, education and degrees in the field.
Looking at the current "trendy" diets, you dont get that, with a few exceptions like Vokey, Phinney and D'Agistino. Even they are a bit more specialized.
Ultimately OP, if you like the plan stick with it, but don't believe in many of the claims. Most of the benefits of IF have been demonstrated with animals, but not really in humans. If it helps you with compliance, than its a great plan.16 -
The first link of Fung's case studies concludes:
"It (IF) demonstrates the effectiveness of therapeutic fasting to reverse their insulin resistance, resulting in cessation of insulin therapy while maintaining control of their blood sugars.... "
The second link says:
"eTRF (early time restricted eating / IF) improved insulin sensitivity, β cell responsiveness, blood pressure, oxidative stress, and appetite. We demonstrate for the first time in humans that eTRF improves some aspects of cardiometabolic health and that IF’s effects are not solely due to weight loss.
"
Looks like they are basically saying the same thing: IF can improve/reverse IR.
And I do realize the difference between the two articles...
[Edited by MFP Mods]16 -
amberellen12 wrote: »Thank you everyone for all your input!!!
I’m always pretty open minded when I read any new plan and ask questions and look for input for people. That’s why I posted here to get your input.
What I’ve gotten from this thread is I should take the parts that I would follow. Ie Intermitent fasting... I’ve done 16/8 for several years and up it to 24 - 36 hours a couple times a week to break through this plateau I’m on.
I’ll never eat high fat diet just too many studies on how it clogs up your arteries. I’ll stay WFPB, whole foods plant base, with some meat but cut back on the calories.
I’ll also up my exercise. Get outside and get moving and dust that pilate bench off.
I will also not worry so much about my insulin spiking. I take it what Dr Fung wrote wasn’t the whole truth on how it works. Ie I don’t have to fast 36 hours before the body starts burning the stored fat. Wew!!! I didn’t like that thought.
Anything else?
I assume the 24-36 hour fast is to jump start ketosis. To get the body using fats and ketones a bit faster than if one is just eating a LCHF diet. This would benefit someone with T2D because BG and insulin would be quite a bit lower by then. Again, not required for a healthy person, although some articles are starting to point towards keeping BG and insulin not at high levels (or high and frequent spikes) as a way to future good health.
But yes, you will use stored fat if you eat in a calorie deficit. Fasting is not needed for weight loss. It may help with some health issues for some people, and possibly with weight loss for some people.11 -
rickdkitson wrote: »And IMHO anyone who publishes a scientific paper claiming some new breakthrough based on n=3 is a quack and the journal that publishes it is not worthy of any further consideration. With an n=3 all you can say is there might be something here worth taking a better look at, not STOP THE PRESSES MAJOR SCIENTIFIC BREAKTHROUGH THAT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE.
Speaking of scientific quackery, you probably have to actually READ the papers before you can rightfully criticize them. I read the paper, did you? Where do they claim a major scientific breakthrough? Allow me to quote from their concluding paragraph, bolded emphasis mine:Fung wrote:Educating patients on the benefits of fasting in the management of T2D may aid in the remission of the disease and curtail the use of pharmacological interventions. A systematic review suggested that patients with T2D who have a baseline HbA1C of greater than 8% may achieve better glycaemic control when given individual education rather than usual care.11 Additionally, patients should be educated about and encouraged to follow an appropriate treatment plan tailored to them.
I don't see what's so objectionable there.10 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?13 -
But he turned me into a newt!1
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CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
I don't think @CharlieBeansmomTracey is attempting to use her professional credentials to prop up her argument, where Fung consistently uses his. In that case, it's perfectly appropriate to note where his specific specialization.16 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.19 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.13
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