Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Intermittent fasting - Dr Jason Fung
Replies
-
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
13 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.20 -
Broke my number 1 rule... never argue with zealots. You will never win, I'm out.14
-
janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
And here-in lies the problem... While I am sure that Fung's site has the usual disclaimers and his books do also (does the average Joe or Suzy actually reads those things???) anybody can and will self-diagnose and follow said advise without consulting their doctor and wind up doing more damage than any imagined damage from their current meds.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
And here-in lies the problem... While I am sure that Fung's site has the usual disclaimers and his books do also (does the average Joe or Suzy actually reads those things???) anybody can and will self-diagnose and follow said advise without consulting their doctor and wind up doing more damage than any imagined damage from their current meds.
I think there is a difference between saying "Here is a plan for people with IR to lose weight" and "People who need to lose weight have IR." Fung's marketing seems to clearly be crossing into the latter.
From the Amazon blurb for one of his books: "Everything you believe about how to lose weight is wrong. Weight gain and obesity are driven by hormones—in everyone—and only by understanding the effects of insulin and insulin resistance can we achieve lasting weight loss.
In this highly readable and provocative book, Dr. Jason Fung sets out an original, robust theory of obesity that provides startling insights into proper nutrition. In addition to his five basic steps, a set of lifelong habits that will improve your health and control your insulin levels, Dr. Fung explains how to use intermittent fasting to break the cycle of insulin resistance and reach a healthy weight—for good."
(Bold text added by me)
He's not limiting his audience to people with IR, he's assuming that everyone with extra weight has IR and that this is the solution for everyone ("everyone" is literally used in his marketing materials).22 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
His marketing isn't to individuals with IR...his marketing is aimed at the general population...12 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
His marketing isn't to individuals with IR...his marketing is aimed at the general population...
IMHO IR is the new buzz word - i know its one of the blood tests my doc does on an annual basis - but how many people who are IR have actually had bloodwork done or are they assuming the are IR because of what the media is telling them....6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
And here-in lies the problem... While I am sure that Fung's site has the usual disclaimers and his books do also (does the average Joe or Suzy actually reads those things???) anybody can and will self-diagnose and follow said advise without consulting their doctor and wind up doing more damage than any imagined damage from their current meds.
I think there is a difference between saying "Here is a plan for people with IR to lose weight" and "People who need to lose weight have IR." Fung's marketing seems to clearly be crossing into the latter.
From the Amazon blurb for one of his books: "Everything you believe about how to lose weight is wrong. Weight gain and obesity are driven by hormones—in everyone—and only by understanding the effects of insulin and insulin resistance can we achieve lasting weight loss.
In this highly readable and provocative book, Dr. Jason Fung sets out an original, robust theory of obesity that provides startling insights into proper nutrition. In addition to his five basic steps, a set of lifelong habits that will improve your health and control your insulin levels, Dr. Fung explains how to use intermittent fasting to break the cycle of insulin resistance and reach a healthy weight—for good."
(Bold text added by me)
He's not limiting his audience to people with IR, he's assuming that everyone with extra weight has IR and that this is the solution for everyone ("everyone" is literally used in his marketing materials).
It's almost as if he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone
6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
And here-in lies the problem... While I am sure that Fung's site has the usual disclaimers and his books do also (does the average Joe or Suzy actually reads those things???) anybody can and will self-diagnose and follow said advise without consulting their doctor and wind up doing more damage than any imagined damage from their current meds.
I think there is a difference between saying "Here is a plan for people with IR to lose weight" and "People who need to lose weight have IR." Fung's marketing seems to clearly be crossing into the latter.
From the Amazon blurb for one of his books: "Everything you believe about how to lose weight is wrong. Weight gain and obesity are driven by hormones—in everyone—and only by understanding the effects of insulin and insulin resistance can we achieve lasting weight loss.
In this highly readable and provocative book, Dr. Jason Fung sets out an original, robust theory of obesity that provides startling insights into proper nutrition. In addition to his five basic steps, a set of lifelong habits that will improve your health and control your insulin levels, Dr. Fung explains how to use intermittent fasting to break the cycle of insulin resistance and reach a healthy weight—for good."
(Bold text added by me)
He's not limiting his audience to people with IR, he's assuming that everyone with extra weight has IR and that this is the solution for everyone ("everyone" is literally used in his marketing materials).
It's almost as if he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone
*Looks up definition of "everyone"*
Hey, I think you're on to something here . . .9 -
deannalfisher wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
His marketing isn't to individuals with IR...his marketing is aimed at the general population...
IMHO IR is the new buzz word - i know its one of the blood tests my doc does on an annual basis - but how many people who are IR have actually had bloodwork done or are they assuming the are IR because of what the media is telling them....
It's probably no different than when Taubes and the keto zealots claim that something like 75% of the population has diabetes because of teh evil evil sugarz - but when you read deeper, they include something like 38% of the alleged diabetes as "undiagnosed cases". If it hasn't been diagnosed, you can make up any number you want to and throw it out there. More fairy tales. It's probably like that with insulin resistance too.
Also, IR is a symptom/result of being overweight/obese (just like many other ailments/diseases), not a cause. Fung conveniently neglects to mention that too.11 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
he has basically said that the test subject could quit cold turkey with their insulin even before they start keto. he also says that it takes 3 days of fasting(no food) to get your body into fat burning mode which also is bullocks. as for some not eating for 3 days and being diabetic could cause severe issues. as for under a drs care the article did not mention that said subject would be under a drs care. the test subject wasnt told to monitor his sugar,that essentially the diet would take care of it all(least from what I read-will have to find the link again) some people need insulin no matter what way of eating they do or how much weight they lose. some can do little amounts others may need more . someone telling a test subject to just go cold turkey is idiotic. how many others will try it or have tried it? we may never know.9 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
he has basically said that the test subject could quit cold turkey with their insulin even before they start keto. ... as for some not eating for 3 days and being diabetic could cause severe issues.
You’ve answered yourself here. Fasting and taking insulin is FAR more dangerous than accepting higher-than-average blood sugars. Obviously if you’re going to start fasting you should quit your insulin regimen (as a type 2 DM patient). Hypoglycemia kills in minutes, hyperglycaemia kills in decades.3 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
he has basically said that the test subject could quit cold turkey with their insulin even before they start keto. ... as for some not eating for 3 days and being diabetic could cause severe issues.
You’ve answered yourself here. Fasting and taking insulin is FAR more dangerous than accepting higher-than-average blood sugars. Obviously if you’re going to start fasting you should quit your insulin regimen (as a type 2 DM patient). Hypoglycemia kills in minutes, hyperglycaemia kills in decades.
um no he said that insulin in and of itself is dangerous for the body and the more you take the more you body needs more and more and it harms your body and makes your diabetes worse. I said they quit cold turkey BEFORE doing keto. but he said a person had to be fasting 3 days before they started burning fat which is WRONG as you burn fat in a deficit. and it wasnt my question I also said nothing about taking insulin and fasting either.
I said STOPPING insulin before doing KETO,not IF or anything else. as for those fasting while taking insulin I would not suggest doing anything unless under the advice or a dr and one who is monitoring the patient closely.many do find fasting though for a short time do have improvements in their IR and their glucose readings,for some its the opposite. I also wouldnt suggest not eating for 3 days either.
you have hypoglycemia and hyperglyemia mixed up. hyper means too much sugar in the blood and it can also mean ketoacidosis- https://www.endocrineweb.com/conditions/hyperglycemia/hyperglycemia-when-your-blood-glucose-level-goes-too-high
-hypo means low blood sugar -hypoglycemia-https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/preventing-problems/low-blood-glucose-hypoglycemia
oh and as for one killing you faster than another. try being in a car with someone whos sugar gets too low and they start hallucinating and pass out.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072694/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072688/4 -
oh and both type 1 and 2 can kill you if left untreated .also in type 2 patients there is something called hyperosmolar hyperglycemic nonketotic syndrome that can happen as well.while in those with type 2 KA is rare it can still happen. neither one is something to mess with. and many here with type 1 have also done keto and got their insulin to a level that works for them in a healthy way. meds are another thing that can cause issues in those with type 1 and 21
-
janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
Obesity code is marketed more towards everyone than the book we were discussing in this thread, which is called Diabetes Code.1 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Even if you're insulin resistant, insulin isn't evil. That's like testing someone for a virus by looking for antibodies to the virus, and then blaming the antibodies for the illness. It's IR that's the problem, and consuming more carbs than your body, with its particular degree IR, can handle. The insulin response to blood glucose levels is not evil.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
Obesity code is marketed more towards everyone than the book we were discussing in this thread, which is called Diabetes Code.
But in the post everyone on this page is responding to, you said thisCharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Regardless, while people with IR might have been his intended audience in his Diabetes book, he has clearly suggested in other books and venues that insulin is the enemy more universally. Which is what we're all saying. And OP said they read Diabetes Code, but asked what everyone thought of him and his work. I don't think we're off base discussing the entirety of his work.8 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »you have hypoglycemia and hyperglyemia mixed up. hyper means too much sugar in the blood and it can also mean ketoacidosis- https://www.endocrineweb.com/conditions/hyperglycemia/hyperglycemia-when-your-blood-glucose-level-goes-too-high
-hypo means low blood sugar -hypoglycemia-https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/preventing-problems/low-blood-glucose-hypoglycemia
oh and as for one killing you faster than another. try being in a car with someone whos sugar gets too low and they start hallucinating and pass out.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072694/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072688/
I think you need to re-read my post. I know that hypo means low and hyper means high. I don't know why you think you're teaching me that hypoglycemia is dangerous when that's exactly what I wrote.
Let this be clear: severe hypoglycemia, no matter the cause, is life threatening and an emergency. Severe hyperglycemia happens for hours per day, for weeks on end, in poorly managed diabetics. One is far worse than the other.
Hyperglycemia doesn't CAUSE ketoacidosis, it is a SYMPTOM of ketoacidosis (in a diabetic).3 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
he has basically said that the test subject could quit cold turkey with their insulin even before they start keto. ... as for some not eating for 3 days and being diabetic could cause severe issues.
You’ve answered yourself here. Fasting and taking insulin is FAR more dangerous than accepting higher-than-average blood sugars. Obviously if you’re going to start fasting you should quit your insulin regimen (as a type 2 DM patient). Hypoglycemia kills in minutes, hyperglycaemia kills in decades.
um no he said that insulin in and of itself is dangerous for the body and the more you take the more you body needs more and more and it harms your body and makes your diabetes worse. I said they quit cold turkey BEFORE doing keto. but he said a person had to be fasting 3 days before they started burning fat which is WRONG as you burn fat in a deficit. and it wasnt my question I also said nothing about taking insulin and fasting either.
I said STOPPING insulin before doing KETO,not IF or anything else. as for those fasting while taking insulin I would not suggest doing anything unless under the advice or a dr and one who is monitoring the patient closely.many do find fasting though for a short time do have improvements in their IR and their glucose readings,for some its the opposite. I also wouldnt suggest not eating for 3 days either.
you have hypoglycemia and hyperglyemia mixed up. hyper means too much sugar in the blood and it can also mean ketoacidosis- https://www.endocrineweb.com/conditions/hyperglycemia/hyperglycemia-when-your-blood-glucose-level-goes-too-high
-hypo means low blood sugar -hypoglycemia-https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/preventing-problems/low-blood-glucose-hypoglycemia
oh and as for one killing you faster than another. try being in a car with someone whos sugar gets too low and they start hallucinating and pass out.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072694/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072688/
This actually happened to my cousin. She was walking home with her dog and was killed by a diabetic that went into a coma while driving. He drove up on the sidewalk and killed her. She was 13 yrs old.7 -
if you do 5:2 which means 5 days of maintenance calories and 2 days of like 500 calories you are creating a deficit whether you realize that or not. Ive done IF all my life and I have gained weight,lost weight and now Im maintaining all still doing IF. I at one point stopped doing IF and was told eating breakfast would boost my metabolism. nope didnt lose any more fat or weight compared to fasting. no one is saying that IF doesnt work for insulin resistance. but you still need a deficit of calories to lose weight. IF works for weight loss IF you are in a deficit of calories, I am living proof that you can gain weight and maintain weight by fasting. all due to intake of calories.
and a plateau is 6-8 weeks of no weight so did you go that long without any weight loss? you didnt lose weight eating more calories than you burned. you created a deficit. if you didnt eat at all those 5 days (which is not how 5:2 is normally done) that means you had NO calories for those 2 days and had calories the next 5 which means deficit. you may have ate more the 5 days but the 2 days with little to no calories means you were in deficit wich means weight loss happens.
if you were in a true plateau and lost doing IF then you were eating more than you thought before you started if and eating less.
I obviously did not communicate well, since there is so much you asked about - I ate MORE calories overall during a WEEK once I started IF. I was previously on 1200 calories/day (8400/week). I went on IF 5/2 - fasted 2 days (ate 500 calories dinner), on the non fast days I ate up to 2000 calories (11,000 calories/week). Did not change anything else. Broke my plateau. During that time I was weighing and logging ALL my food very carefully. I was discouraged to say the lease.
12 -
if you do 5:2 which means 5 days of maintenance calories and 2 days of like 500 calories you are creating a deficit whether you realize that or not. Ive done IF all my life and I have gained weight,lost weight and now Im maintaining all still doing IF. I at one point stopped doing IF and was told eating breakfast would boost my metabolism. nope didnt lose any more fat or weight compared to fasting. no one is saying that IF doesnt work for insulin resistance. but you still need a deficit of calories to lose weight. IF works for weight loss IF you are in a deficit of calories, I am living proof that you can gain weight and maintain weight by fasting. all due to intake of calories.
and a plateau is 6-8 weeks of no weight so did you go that long without any weight loss? you didnt lose weight eating more calories than you burned. you created a deficit. if you didnt eat at all those 5 days (which is not how 5:2 is normally done) that means you had NO calories for those 2 days and had calories the next 5 which means deficit. you may have ate more the 5 days but the 2 days with little to no calories means you were in deficit wich means weight loss happens.
if you were in a true plateau and lost doing IF then you were eating more than you thought before you started if and eating less.
I obviously did not communicate well, since there is so much you asked about - I ate MORE calories overall during a WEEK once I started IF. I was previously on 1200 calories/day (8400/week). I went on IF 5/2 - fasted 2 days (ate 500 calories dinner), on the non fast days I ate up to 2000 calories (11,000 calories/week). Did not change anything else. Broke my plateau. During that time I was weighing and logging ALL my food very carefully. I was discouraged to say the lease.
you ate more overall but the deficit was still there. many people go by a weekly deficit instead of a daily one. they eat more on some days and less on others. its still creating a deficit so thats why it worked. if you didnt lose weight before IF and keto then you had no deficit happening1 -
oh and then there is this saying that hyperglycemia may cause ketoacidosis not that its a symptom Diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) is a serious condition that can lead to diabetic coma. May be caused by hyperglycemia (high blood glucose) or hypoglycemia (low blood glucose) in people with diabetes http://www.diabetes.org/living-with-diabetes/complications/ketoacidosis-dka.html0
-
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »oh and then there is this saying that hyperglycemia may cause ketoacidosis not that its a symptom Diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) is a serious condition that can lead to diabetic coma. May be caused by hyperglycemia (high blood glucose) or hypoglycemia (low blood glucose) in people with diabetes http://www.diabetes.org/living-with-diabetes/complications/ketoacidosis-dka.html
That link doesn’t say anywhere that hyperglycaemia can cause DKA. In fact that link has a section actually titled “what causes DKA” which says the following:Here are three basic reasons for moderate or large amounts of ketones:
Not enough insulin
Maybe you did not inject enough insulin. Or your body could need more insulin than usual because of illness.
Not enough food
When you're sick, you often don't feel like eating, sometimes resulting in high ketone levels. High levels may also occur when you miss a meal.
Insulin reaction (low blood glucose)
If testing shows high ketone levels in the morning, you may have had an insulin reaction while asleep.0 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Even if you're insulin resistant, insulin isn't evil. That's like testing someone for a virus by looking for antibodies to the virus, and then blaming the antibodies for the illness. It's IR that's the problem, and consuming more carbs than your body, with its particular degree IR, can handle. The insulin response to blood glucose levels is not evil.
I never said insulin is evil. I said it can seem Fung is saying IR is evil - mainly because he is constantly preaching about how to reduce it.
2 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »if you do 5:2 which means 5 days of maintenance calories and 2 days of like 500 calories you are creating a deficit whether you realize that or not. Ive done IF all my life and I have gained weight,lost weight and now Im maintaining all still doing IF. I at one point stopped doing IF and was told eating breakfast would boost my metabolism. nope didnt lose any more fat or weight compared to fasting. no one is saying that IF doesnt work for insulin resistance. but you still need a deficit of calories to lose weight. IF works for weight loss IF you are in a deficit of calories, I am living proof that you can gain weight and maintain weight by fasting. all due to intake of calories.
and a plateau is 6-8 weeks of no weight so did you go that long without any weight loss? you didnt lose weight eating more calories than you burned. you created a deficit. if you didnt eat at all those 5 days (which is not how 5:2 is normally done) that means you had NO calories for those 2 days and had calories the next 5 which means deficit. you may have ate more the 5 days but the 2 days with little to no calories means you were in deficit wich means weight loss happens.
if you were in a true plateau and lost doing IF then you were eating more than you thought before you started if and eating less.
I obviously did not communicate well, since there is so much you asked about - I ate MORE calories overall during a WEEK once I started IF. I was previously on 1200 calories/day (8400/week). I went on IF 5/2 - fasted 2 days (ate 500 calories dinner), on the non fast days I ate up to 2000 calories (11,000 calories/week). Did not change anything else. Broke my plateau. During that time I was weighing and logging ALL my food very carefully. I was discouraged to say the lease.
you ate more overall but the deficit was still there. many people go by a weekly deficit instead of a daily one. they eat more on some days and less on others. its still creating a deficit so thats why it worked. if you didnt lose weight before IF and keto then you had no deficit happening
Good grief - it must be nice to know everything29 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »if you do 5:2 which means 5 days of maintenance calories and 2 days of like 500 calories you are creating a deficit whether you realize that or not. Ive done IF all my life and I have gained weight,lost weight and now Im maintaining all still doing IF. I at one point stopped doing IF and was told eating breakfast would boost my metabolism. nope didnt lose any more fat or weight compared to fasting. no one is saying that IF doesnt work for insulin resistance. but you still need a deficit of calories to lose weight. IF works for weight loss IF you are in a deficit of calories, I am living proof that you can gain weight and maintain weight by fasting. all due to intake of calories.
and a plateau is 6-8 weeks of no weight so did you go that long without any weight loss? you didnt lose weight eating more calories than you burned. you created a deficit. if you didnt eat at all those 5 days (which is not how 5:2 is normally done) that means you had NO calories for those 2 days and had calories the next 5 which means deficit. you may have ate more the 5 days but the 2 days with little to no calories means you were in deficit wich means weight loss happens.
if you were in a true plateau and lost doing IF then you were eating more than you thought before you started if and eating less.
I obviously did not communicate well, since there is so much you asked about - I ate MORE calories overall during a WEEK once I started IF. I was previously on 1200 calories/day (8400/week). I went on IF 5/2 - fasted 2 days (ate 500 calories dinner), on the non fast days I ate up to 2000 calories (11,000 calories/week). Did not change anything else. Broke my plateau. During that time I was weighing and logging ALL my food very carefully. I was discouraged to say the lease.
you ate more overall but the deficit was still there. many people go by a weekly deficit instead of a daily one. they eat more on some days and less on others. its still creating a deficit so thats why it worked. if you didnt lose weight before IF and keto then you had no deficit happening
Good grief - it must be nice to know everything
no its proven science ,its CICO even if you arent counting your body is. and being here long enough and doing enough research you learn things. but thanks for thinking I know everything. youre a peach19 -
janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
Obesity code is marketed more towards everyone than the book we were discussing in this thread, which is called Diabetes Code.
The point is that he's marketing his IR-specific strategy as if it's the only key to weight loss for *everyone*. That's what I have an issue with. Anyone claiming that people with IR are his audience are ignoring that he is attempting to expand the definition of "people with IR" to anyone who has weight they'd like to lose.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
Obesity code is marketed more towards everyone than the book we were discussing in this thread, which is called Diabetes Code.
The point is that he's marketing his IR-specific strategy as if it's the only key to weight loss for *everyone*. That's what I have an issue with. Anyone claiming that people with IR are his audience are ignoring that he is attempting to expand the definition of "people with IR" to anyone who has weight they'd like to lose.
I wonder what percentage of the overweight population is pre- diabetic, IR or pre IR if there is such a term? If it is significant he may not be as far off as you suggest. I don't know if numbers exist on this but was just throwing it out there. I would also guess that there is a huge % that doesn't even know they have any of these issues.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
Obesity code is marketed more towards everyone than the book we were discussing in this thread, which is called Diabetes Code.
The point is that he's marketing his IR-specific strategy as if it's the only key to weight loss for *everyone*. That's what I have an issue with. Anyone claiming that people with IR are his audience are ignoring that he is attempting to expand the definition of "people with IR" to anyone who has weight they'd like to lose.
I wonder what percentage of the overweight population is pre- diabetic, IR or pre IR if there is such a term? If it is significant he may not be as far off as you suggest. I don't know if numbers exist on this but was just throwing it out there. I would also guess that there is a huge % that doesn't even know they have any of these issues.
If it is significant, then it should be easy for Fung to present the evidence that supports his claim that obesity is due to IR and that weight loss is only possible if one understands how to manage it.
If numbers *don't* exist on this, I don't know why we should giving the claim any particular attention at all. If he's basing his claims on what he thinks could be true or what he wishes were true, he should be clear about that.
I don't think it is unreasonable for us to expect him to have some sort of evidence for his claims, especially given that we know people are capable of carrying excess weight while having completely normal blood sugar levels. I am one person who was in this category -- medically overweight, but with absolutely no issues in my blood tests. There are also people who may have problems related to IR, but manage them well *by losing weight* without following Fung's protocol. So on three counts -- that excess weight is always due to IR, that IR can only be resolved by following Fung's protocol, and that weight loss is impossible without following Fung's protocol -- seem to be very questionable. They're the kind of big claims that require evidence.
If he doesn't have evidence, his claims seem to be little more than a cynical cash grab.
I have no idea what "pre-IR" would be. What does that mean to you specifically?10 -
I know for me when I was obese I was neither pre diabetic or IR. my daughter is very obese(she has a thyroid condition) and she doesnt have IR,and she is not pre diabetic either. she is more than 100lbs overweight.all her other health markers except for the thyroid issue are fine. no high blood pressure. nothing like that .she tried doing low carb per the advice of her first endo. it did nothing for her at all. not saying it doesnt work for others.she also lost no weight but then with her thyroid still not under control that may be a big part of why.
my sisters are overweight and none of them are IR or have pre diabetes either.we were all thin as kids too and as we got older we started packing on the pounds. for me having my familial hypercholesterolemia,if I dont treat it with diet,exercise and meds I can develop type 2 and thats a route I do not want to go.many of the people on my moms side are heavy(even though my mom and brother were thin and my aunt was overweight,yet my granpa was thin and my grandma of a healthy weight) and only 1 or 2 of them are actually diabetic.I had a great uncle who was of normal weight and had type 2 but he didnt take care of himself so he was always"losing" body parts.
a friend of ours was over 500lbs and weirdly enough he was not IR or pre diabetic but many in his family were. he had WLS and not sure what he weighs now(I dont ask). so I would say its probably a split amount of people who are overweight/obese who have IR or are pre diabetic. and the other half who dont have it. as for the ones that dont know they are IR or prediabetic I would say that possibly is a small percent as most of the obese/overweight people I know all go to the dr for one thing or another at some point.3
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.3K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 424 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions