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Intermittent fasting - Dr Jason Fung
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CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
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CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.20 -
Broke my number 1 rule... never argue with zealots. You will never win, I'm out.14
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janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
And here-in lies the problem... While I am sure that Fung's site has the usual disclaimers and his books do also (does the average Joe or Suzy actually reads those things???) anybody can and will self-diagnose and follow said advise without consulting their doctor and wind up doing more damage than any imagined damage from their current meds.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
And here-in lies the problem... While I am sure that Fung's site has the usual disclaimers and his books do also (does the average Joe or Suzy actually reads those things???) anybody can and will self-diagnose and follow said advise without consulting their doctor and wind up doing more damage than any imagined damage from their current meds.
I think there is a difference between saying "Here is a plan for people with IR to lose weight" and "People who need to lose weight have IR." Fung's marketing seems to clearly be crossing into the latter.
From the Amazon blurb for one of his books: "Everything you believe about how to lose weight is wrong. Weight gain and obesity are driven by hormones—in everyone—and only by understanding the effects of insulin and insulin resistance can we achieve lasting weight loss.
In this highly readable and provocative book, Dr. Jason Fung sets out an original, robust theory of obesity that provides startling insights into proper nutrition. In addition to his five basic steps, a set of lifelong habits that will improve your health and control your insulin levels, Dr. Fung explains how to use intermittent fasting to break the cycle of insulin resistance and reach a healthy weight—for good."
(Bold text added by me)
He's not limiting his audience to people with IR, he's assuming that everyone with extra weight has IR and that this is the solution for everyone ("everyone" is literally used in his marketing materials).22 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
His marketing isn't to individuals with IR...his marketing is aimed at the general population...12 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
His marketing isn't to individuals with IR...his marketing is aimed at the general population...
IMHO IR is the new buzz word - i know its one of the blood tests my doc does on an annual basis - but how many people who are IR have actually had bloodwork done or are they assuming the are IR because of what the media is telling them....6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
And here-in lies the problem... While I am sure that Fung's site has the usual disclaimers and his books do also (does the average Joe or Suzy actually reads those things???) anybody can and will self-diagnose and follow said advise without consulting their doctor and wind up doing more damage than any imagined damage from their current meds.
I think there is a difference between saying "Here is a plan for people with IR to lose weight" and "People who need to lose weight have IR." Fung's marketing seems to clearly be crossing into the latter.
From the Amazon blurb for one of his books: "Everything you believe about how to lose weight is wrong. Weight gain and obesity are driven by hormones—in everyone—and only by understanding the effects of insulin and insulin resistance can we achieve lasting weight loss.
In this highly readable and provocative book, Dr. Jason Fung sets out an original, robust theory of obesity that provides startling insights into proper nutrition. In addition to his five basic steps, a set of lifelong habits that will improve your health and control your insulin levels, Dr. Fung explains how to use intermittent fasting to break the cycle of insulin resistance and reach a healthy weight—for good."
(Bold text added by me)
He's not limiting his audience to people with IR, he's assuming that everyone with extra weight has IR and that this is the solution for everyone ("everyone" is literally used in his marketing materials).
It's almost as if he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone
6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
And here-in lies the problem... While I am sure that Fung's site has the usual disclaimers and his books do also (does the average Joe or Suzy actually reads those things???) anybody can and will self-diagnose and follow said advise without consulting their doctor and wind up doing more damage than any imagined damage from their current meds.
I think there is a difference between saying "Here is a plan for people with IR to lose weight" and "People who need to lose weight have IR." Fung's marketing seems to clearly be crossing into the latter.
From the Amazon blurb for one of his books: "Everything you believe about how to lose weight is wrong. Weight gain and obesity are driven by hormones—in everyone—and only by understanding the effects of insulin and insulin resistance can we achieve lasting weight loss.
In this highly readable and provocative book, Dr. Jason Fung sets out an original, robust theory of obesity that provides startling insights into proper nutrition. In addition to his five basic steps, a set of lifelong habits that will improve your health and control your insulin levels, Dr. Fung explains how to use intermittent fasting to break the cycle of insulin resistance and reach a healthy weight—for good."
(Bold text added by me)
He's not limiting his audience to people with IR, he's assuming that everyone with extra weight has IR and that this is the solution for everyone ("everyone" is literally used in his marketing materials).
It's almost as if he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone
*Looks up definition of "everyone"*
Hey, I think you're on to something here . . .9 -
deannalfisher wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
His marketing isn't to individuals with IR...his marketing is aimed at the general population...
IMHO IR is the new buzz word - i know its one of the blood tests my doc does on an annual basis - but how many people who are IR have actually had bloodwork done or are they assuming the are IR because of what the media is telling them....
It's probably no different than when Taubes and the keto zealots claim that something like 75% of the population has diabetes because of teh evil evil sugarz - but when you read deeper, they include something like 38% of the alleged diabetes as "undiagnosed cases". If it hasn't been diagnosed, you can make up any number you want to and throw it out there. More fairy tales. It's probably like that with insulin resistance too.
Also, IR is a symptom/result of being overweight/obese (just like many other ailments/diseases), not a cause. Fung conveniently neglects to mention that too.11 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
he has basically said that the test subject could quit cold turkey with their insulin even before they start keto. he also says that it takes 3 days of fasting(no food) to get your body into fat burning mode which also is bullocks. as for some not eating for 3 days and being diabetic could cause severe issues. as for under a drs care the article did not mention that said subject would be under a drs care. the test subject wasnt told to monitor his sugar,that essentially the diet would take care of it all(least from what I read-will have to find the link again) some people need insulin no matter what way of eating they do or how much weight they lose. some can do little amounts others may need more . someone telling a test subject to just go cold turkey is idiotic. how many others will try it or have tried it? we may never know.9 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
he has basically said that the test subject could quit cold turkey with their insulin even before they start keto. ... as for some not eating for 3 days and being diabetic could cause severe issues.
You’ve answered yourself here. Fasting and taking insulin is FAR more dangerous than accepting higher-than-average blood sugars. Obviously if you’re going to start fasting you should quit your insulin regimen (as a type 2 DM patient). Hypoglycemia kills in minutes, hyperglycaemia kills in decades.3 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
he has basically said that the test subject could quit cold turkey with their insulin even before they start keto. ... as for some not eating for 3 days and being diabetic could cause severe issues.
You’ve answered yourself here. Fasting and taking insulin is FAR more dangerous than accepting higher-than-average blood sugars. Obviously if you’re going to start fasting you should quit your insulin regimen (as a type 2 DM patient). Hypoglycemia kills in minutes, hyperglycaemia kills in decades.
um no he said that insulin in and of itself is dangerous for the body and the more you take the more you body needs more and more and it harms your body and makes your diabetes worse. I said they quit cold turkey BEFORE doing keto. but he said a person had to be fasting 3 days before they started burning fat which is WRONG as you burn fat in a deficit. and it wasnt my question I also said nothing about taking insulin and fasting either.
I said STOPPING insulin before doing KETO,not IF or anything else. as for those fasting while taking insulin I would not suggest doing anything unless under the advice or a dr and one who is monitoring the patient closely.many do find fasting though for a short time do have improvements in their IR and their glucose readings,for some its the opposite. I also wouldnt suggest not eating for 3 days either.
you have hypoglycemia and hyperglyemia mixed up. hyper means too much sugar in the blood and it can also mean ketoacidosis- https://www.endocrineweb.com/conditions/hyperglycemia/hyperglycemia-when-your-blood-glucose-level-goes-too-high
-hypo means low blood sugar -hypoglycemia-https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/preventing-problems/low-blood-glucose-hypoglycemia
oh and as for one killing you faster than another. try being in a car with someone whos sugar gets too low and they start hallucinating and pass out.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072694/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072688/4 -
oh and both type 1 and 2 can kill you if left untreated .also in type 2 patients there is something called hyperosmolar hyperglycemic nonketotic syndrome that can happen as well.while in those with type 2 KA is rare it can still happen. neither one is something to mess with. and many here with type 1 have also done keto and got their insulin to a level that works for them in a healthy way. meds are another thing that can cause issues in those with type 1 and 21
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janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
Obesity code is marketed more towards everyone than the book we were discussing in this thread, which is called Diabetes Code.1 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Even if you're insulin resistant, insulin isn't evil. That's like testing someone for a virus by looking for antibodies to the virus, and then blaming the antibodies for the illness. It's IR that's the problem, and consuming more carbs than your body, with its particular degree IR, can handle. The insulin response to blood glucose levels is not evil.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Books like "The Obesity Code" seem to be marketed towards everyone with a concern about their weight, not people with a specific diagnosis of IR.
Obesity code is marketed more towards everyone than the book we were discussing in this thread, which is called Diabetes Code.
But in the post everyone on this page is responding to, you said thisCharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
I think some criticisms of Fung come because people tend to forget that people with IR are his audience. If you forget that, it can come off that he is saying that insulin = evil for everyone because the main focus on his diet is to reduce insulin levels (through diet, weightloss and IF).
Regardless, while people with IR might have been his intended audience in his Diabetes book, he has clearly suggested in other books and venues that insulin is the enemy more universally. Which is what we're all saying. And OP said they read Diabetes Code, but asked what everyone thought of him and his work. I don't think we're off base discussing the entirety of his work.8 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »you have hypoglycemia and hyperglyemia mixed up. hyper means too much sugar in the blood and it can also mean ketoacidosis- https://www.endocrineweb.com/conditions/hyperglycemia/hyperglycemia-when-your-blood-glucose-level-goes-too-high
-hypo means low blood sugar -hypoglycemia-https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/preventing-problems/low-blood-glucose-hypoglycemia
oh and as for one killing you faster than another. try being in a car with someone whos sugar gets too low and they start hallucinating and pass out.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072694/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072688/
I think you need to re-read my post. I know that hypo means low and hyper means high. I don't know why you think you're teaching me that hypoglycemia is dangerous when that's exactly what I wrote.
Let this be clear: severe hypoglycemia, no matter the cause, is life threatening and an emergency. Severe hyperglycemia happens for hours per day, for weeks on end, in poorly managed diabetics. One is far worse than the other.
Hyperglycemia doesn't CAUSE ketoacidosis, it is a SYMPTOM of ketoacidosis (in a diabetic).3 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »he also states that using insulin makes your diabetes worse over time. hes made a lot of false claims he just needs to stick with being a nephrologist.
Glucose management is WELL within the interests of a nephrologist.
This is a curious line of attack. Fung isn't a bariatrician or an endocrinologist so he's not entitled to comment on those fields... well are YOU a bariatrician or endocrinologist by chance? If not, what right do you have to opine?
When someone who doesn't have credentials in a field claims that they know better than people who do have credentials in that field, I think anyone has a right to opine that that's shady.
Fung takes a kernel of something that's in his wheelhouse, extrapolates it out to the nth degree, over dramatizes the conclusion, and then uses his own "case studies" as "proof", or cherry picks research that seems to support his claims while flat out ignoring research that refutes it.
And I'd like to add, as others have, that none of this is a knock on IF. It is a great plan for many people to get their diets under control. There are some theories out there that it has other benefits, which may or may not hold up to the necessary further studying and testing. And then there's a lot of miracle cure, click-bait science fiction out there about IF trying to cash in on it's current popularity.
Dodging the whole qualification debate but if he is suggesting a type of diet combined with intermittent fasting to reduce medication to control T2D and it helps in any way, isn't this a good thing? I am assuming that the individual would either be under a doctors care or knowledgeable in how to monitor their insulin levels so they don't exceed levels that could cause harm. I am very anti medication so if I am told I need medication I will try any method possible to correct the need for it if possible.
he has basically said that the test subject could quit cold turkey with their insulin even before they start keto. ... as for some not eating for 3 days and being diabetic could cause severe issues.
You’ve answered yourself here. Fasting and taking insulin is FAR more dangerous than accepting higher-than-average blood sugars. Obviously if you’re going to start fasting you should quit your insulin regimen (as a type 2 DM patient). Hypoglycemia kills in minutes, hyperglycaemia kills in decades.
um no he said that insulin in and of itself is dangerous for the body and the more you take the more you body needs more and more and it harms your body and makes your diabetes worse. I said they quit cold turkey BEFORE doing keto. but he said a person had to be fasting 3 days before they started burning fat which is WRONG as you burn fat in a deficit. and it wasnt my question I also said nothing about taking insulin and fasting either.
I said STOPPING insulin before doing KETO,not IF or anything else. as for those fasting while taking insulin I would not suggest doing anything unless under the advice or a dr and one who is monitoring the patient closely.many do find fasting though for a short time do have improvements in their IR and their glucose readings,for some its the opposite. I also wouldnt suggest not eating for 3 days either.
you have hypoglycemia and hyperglyemia mixed up. hyper means too much sugar in the blood and it can also mean ketoacidosis- https://www.endocrineweb.com/conditions/hyperglycemia/hyperglycemia-when-your-blood-glucose-level-goes-too-high
-hypo means low blood sugar -hypoglycemia-https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/preventing-problems/low-blood-glucose-hypoglycemia
oh and as for one killing you faster than another. try being in a car with someone whos sugar gets too low and they start hallucinating and pass out.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072694/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072688/
This actually happened to my cousin. She was walking home with her dog and was killed by a diabetic that went into a coma while driving. He drove up on the sidewalk and killed her. She was 13 yrs old.7 -
if you do 5:2 which means 5 days of maintenance calories and 2 days of like 500 calories you are creating a deficit whether you realize that or not. Ive done IF all my life and I have gained weight,lost weight and now Im maintaining all still doing IF. I at one point stopped doing IF and was told eating breakfast would boost my metabolism. nope didnt lose any more fat or weight compared to fasting. no one is saying that IF doesnt work for insulin resistance. but you still need a deficit of calories to lose weight. IF works for weight loss IF you are in a deficit of calories, I am living proof that you can gain weight and maintain weight by fasting. all due to intake of calories.
and a plateau is 6-8 weeks of no weight so did you go that long without any weight loss? you didnt lose weight eating more calories than you burned. you created a deficit. if you didnt eat at all those 5 days (which is not how 5:2 is normally done) that means you had NO calories for those 2 days and had calories the next 5 which means deficit. you may have ate more the 5 days but the 2 days with little to no calories means you were in deficit wich means weight loss happens.
if you were in a true plateau and lost doing IF then you were eating more than you thought before you started if and eating less.
I obviously did not communicate well, since there is so much you asked about - I ate MORE calories overall during a WEEK once I started IF. I was previously on 1200 calories/day (8400/week). I went on IF 5/2 - fasted 2 days (ate 500 calories dinner), on the non fast days I ate up to 2000 calories (11,000 calories/week). Did not change anything else. Broke my plateau. During that time I was weighing and logging ALL my food very carefully. I was discouraged to say the lease.
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