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Is anyone confused?
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How do you determine whether or not to use material that's confusing to you?jasonpoihegatama wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
I'm not sure choosing what's right for a person based on their metrics is the same thing as being confused by the over abundance of misleading material that's available to choose from, some of which may actually be dangerous.
If you choose to use misleading material then that's up to you! Why use material at all if you are not sure?
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jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
Where did I say that?5 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
Where did I say that?
Ain't you insinuating everyone is the same by your Quote.9 -
jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
Where did I say that?
Ain't you insinuating everyone is the same by your Quote.
You used a very vague phrase about exercise "working". Any sort of exercise will have benefits for most people, though obviously some exercises are better for specific goals than others.
We're not all personal trainers talking about designing programs for our clients. I believe OP was asking about the general public trying to figure out how to be healthy.11 -
jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
Where did I say that?
Ain't you insinuating everyone is the same by your Quote.
You used a very vague phrase about exercise "working". Any sort of exercise will have benefits for most people, though obviously some exercises are better for specific goals than others.
We're not all personal trainers talking about designing programs for our clients. I believe OP was asking about the general public trying to figure out how to be healthy.
Sure Theres Les Mills exercise classes!5 -
Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
Actually- the mere fact that “fit guy” appears fit doesn’t mean he has anything valuable to say.
He achieved results perhaps because of, but equally likely in spite of, his methods.
99% of what is out there is irrelevant nonsense to begin with.
99% of actual studies minimize the noise because no, “fit guy” didn’t get fit because he does IF Keto vegan gluten free whey protein bomb shakes within a 27 minute window after only working legs on the 7th Tuesday of each full blood moon.
Also-“fit guy”s results are irrelevant to me if my goals are about race times and idgaf what my BF% is or how “lean” I look. So even within the context of lifting, my goals are for race performance.
Fit guy’s anecdotal info is nearly useless. He achieved results in spite of what he was doing. He also achieved results that aren’t aligned to my goals. But the internet is full of fit guys sharing their “knowledge” and “expertise”
Years ago, we went out to dinner with my son to celebrate his getting his driver’s license. He insisted on driving himself. We all left at the same time. He got to the restaurant an hour after we did. It was a 7 minute drive (for us). He also needed to borrow money to get some gas because he used all of his on the drive there. Did he get there? Yep. Did he take the best route? I suppose that depends on your definition of best. The internet is FULL of my son giving directions to the restauarant.
Studies are the GPS. Maybe they don’t have every address on planet earth-but I’ll take my chances with that over my kid any day.
Interesting Duck_Puddle. You should stick with that approach, especially if it is working for you!
If you want to learn how to improve your race time, I'd ask the fastest racer you can find. I wouldn't be asking "fit guy" about how to improve my racing times.
In case you missed it, I addressed this in my last post:No I am not.
I agree that people can get cause and effect wrong including the "fit guy". I agree that people can have bias. We are all human just like the scientist conducting a study.
I enjoy reading about facts, data, science and theories that others are trying. I try many of them too! I learn from others and I learn from my mistakes. Learning isn't one dimensional.
However, my personal experience, my passion, my research and my personal real world results based on my personal actions do mean more to me than a study that tells me what "should happen" to me.
If I wanted to learn how to play in the NHL, personally, I would be way more interested in learning from Sidney Crosby and asking how he got there than I would be from a commentator who did not play in the NHL but does get paid full time to watch and study the game.
I would rather learn about SEO from someone who built up a site and is getting huge traffic from search than I would someone who studies SEO and offers a course on it.
Both approaches have flaws but I do trust my results over others theories and tests. If I had the chance to talk to someone who achieved what I wanted to achieve, I would be thrilled and I would place a huge amount of value on that. If I see something about a test finding I would be intrigued and likely want to learn more and verify its accuracy the best that I can.
Actually-I asked my coach-who knows my particular history, skills, preference, psychology, physical makeup, life demands etc.
I don’t know his race times. I also don’t care.
I know that he is using science-based methods condiering all my unique factors to help me PR every single race distance I’ve attempted since I started working with him.
I would assume that Meb’s training is entirely different and not really applicable to me.
So again-I’m choosing science over one dude who actually doesn’t have a lot that’s useful to me (despite his obvious success).
If that is working for you then you should stick with it! Well done!Both approaches have flaws but I do trust my results over others theories and tests. If I had the chance to talk to someone who achieved what I wanted to achieve, I would be thrilled and I would place a huge amount of value on that. If I see something about a test finding I would be intrigued and likely want to learn more and verify its accuracy the best that I can.
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jasonpoihegatama wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
Where did I say that?
Ain't you insinuating everyone is the same by your Quote.
You used a very vague phrase about exercise "working". Any sort of exercise will have benefits for most people, though obviously some exercises are better for specific goals than others.
We're not all personal trainers talking about designing programs for our clients. I believe OP was asking about the general public trying to figure out how to be healthy.
Sure Theres Les Mills exercise classes!
I'm not sure what your point has been other than to show how your interpretation works as an interlocutor.
Yes, technically exercises don't work for everyone - a person currently dying of a heart attack isn't about to improve their cardiovascular fitness or gain muscle tissue in the minutes before they die.
A person with a metabolic disorder that prevents uptake of certain foods is going to not line up well with caloric estimates, even as they still have to follow the limits of biology and physics.
Does it hold up well enough to say that for a person in a non-disease state, there will exist a range of responses to exercise and nutrition, and that in that response space, there exists at least one that will result in weight loss, and at least one that will result in weight gain? That the general tendency will be that more exercise and less caloric intake will favor the loss response space, and that reducing exercise and increasing caloric intake will favor the increase response space?12 -
jasonpoihegatama wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
Where did I say that?
Ain't you insinuating everyone is the same by your Quote.
You used a very vague phrase about exercise "working". Any sort of exercise will have benefits for most people, though obviously some exercises are better for specific goals than others.
We're not all personal trainers talking about designing programs for our clients. I believe OP was asking about the general public trying to figure out how to be healthy.
Sure Theres Les Mills exercise classes!
True. I know a lot of people in my everyday life who would be healthier, fitter, and have an easier time losing weight if they were regularly attending Les Mills classes. I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread though.7 -
Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
Actually- the mere fact that “fit guy” appears fit doesn’t mean he has anything valuable to say.
He achieved results perhaps because of, but equally likely in spite of, his methods.
99% of what is out there is irrelevant nonsense to begin with.
99% of actual studies minimize the noise because no, “fit guy” didn’t get fit because he does IF Keto vegan gluten free whey protein bomb shakes within a 27 minute window after only working legs on the 7th Tuesday of each full blood moon.
Also-“fit guy”s results are irrelevant to me if my goals are about race times and idgaf what my BF% is or how “lean” I look. So even within the context of lifting, my goals are for race performance.
Fit guy’s anecdotal info is nearly useless. He achieved results in spite of what he was doing. He also achieved results that aren’t aligned to my goals. But the internet is full of fit guys sharing their “knowledge” and “expertise”
Years ago, we went out to dinner with my son to celebrate his getting his driver’s license. He insisted on driving himself. We all left at the same time. He got to the restaurant an hour after we did. It was a 7 minute drive (for us). He also needed to borrow money to get some gas because he used all of his on the drive there. Did he get there? Yep. Did he take the best route? I suppose that depends on your definition of best. The internet is FULL of my son giving directions to the restauarant.
Studies are the GPS. Maybe they don’t have every address on planet earth-but I’ll take my chances with that over my kid any day.
Interesting Duck_Puddle. You should stick with that approach, especially if it is working for you!
If you want to learn how to improve your race time, I'd ask the fastest racer you can find. I wouldn't be asking "fit guy" about how to improve my racing times.
In case you missed it, I addressed this in my last post:No I am not.
I agree that people can get cause and effect wrong including the "fit guy". I agree that people can have bias. We are all human just like the scientist conducting a study.
I enjoy reading about facts, data, science and theories that others are trying. I try many of them too! I learn from others and I learn from my mistakes. Learning isn't one dimensional.
However, my personal experience, my passion, my research and my personal real world results based on my personal actions do mean more to me than a study that tells me what "should happen" to me.
If I wanted to learn how to play in the NHL, personally, I would be way more interested in learning from Sidney Crosby and asking how he got there than I would be from a commentator who did not play in the NHL but does get paid full time to watch and study the game.
I would rather learn about SEO from someone who built up a site and is getting huge traffic from search than I would someone who studies SEO and offers a course on it.
Both approaches have flaws but I do trust my results over others theories and tests. If I had the chance to talk to someone who achieved what I wanted to achieve, I would be thrilled and I would place a huge amount of value on that. If I see something about a test finding I would be intrigued and likely want to learn more and verify its accuracy the best that I can.
And going back to the confusion piece. If I’m Googling away looking for how to get fit-and I haven’t exercised in 20 years and I’m sipping my 64 Oz big gulp and don’t know where to start or where I’m going, I’m going to be inundated with information.
I’m going to have 395959606 Fit Guys telling me to do xyz, abc, but only on the alternate 3rd Sunday of the Mars orbital schedule, just start light with 300 pounds on the bar and whatever you do-NEVER to cardio because gainz.
I’m going to have 928599505 brand new fitness bloggers telling me to do keto IF and if I really want to blast fat do HIIT. Whatever you do-don’t eat sugar. But honey is ok. But definitely no carbz ever because Satan created insulin.
Then you’ll have 2774959560 inspirational blog posts about morbidly obese people who now run marathons and ultras and how they still eat cookies and beer.
But wait? What about the carbz and the cardio? How come they aren’t dead?
But what do I even want? I just want to be healthy. I still don’t know what to do or where to go.
Except never cardio but definitely run, it’s ok to eat cookies but never eat a carb, and do HIIT? What is HIIT?
Note-I’m not looking for these answers. But for your average Joe - this is what they are confronted with. And they don’t know how to vet sources or what is nonsense and what isn’t. What is relevant and what isn’t.
I missed all of these posts... what a fire storm.
Haha! You make some really good points though! Hopefully some common sense can be applied. Simply picking up on fitness magazine will cause the same problem. This is the point of the original post. Heck studies can even contractic their findings.
Hmmm... once again, using a combination of things seems to a good idea. I am not saying it is easy but I seemed to have found a solution that has worked for over a quarter century.... but you wouldn't want to know about that.
Haha! All in good fun. But interesting too.
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Cahgetsfit wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
Actually- the mere fact that “fit guy” appears fit doesn’t mean he has anything valuable to say.
He achieved results perhaps because of, but equally likely in spite of, his methods.
99% of what is out there is irrelevant nonsense to begin with.
99% of actual studies minimize the noise because no, “fit guy” didn’t get fit because he does IF Keto vegan gluten free whey protein bomb shakes within a 27 minute window after only working legs on the 7th Tuesday of each full blood moon.
Also-“fit guy”s results are irrelevant to me if my goals are about race times and idgaf what my BF% is or how “lean” I look. So even within the context of lifting, my goals are for race performance.
Fit guy’s anecdotal info is nearly useless. He achieved results in spite of what he was doing. He also achieved results that aren’t aligned to my goals. But the internet is full of fit guys sharing their “knowledge” and “expertise”
Years ago, we went out to dinner with my son to celebrate his getting his driver’s license. He insisted on driving himself. We all left at the same time. He got to the restaurant an hour after we did. It was a 7 minute drive (for us). He also needed to borrow money to get some gas because he used all of his on the drive there. Did he get there? Yep. Did he take the best route? I suppose that depends on your definition of best. The internet is FULL of my son giving directions to the restauarant.
Studies are the GPS. Maybe they don’t have every address on planet earth-but I’ll take my chances with that over my kid any day.
Interesting Duck_Puddle. You should stick with that approach, especially if it is working for you!
If you want to learn how to improve your race time, I'd ask the fastest racer you can find. I wouldn't be asking "fit guy" about how to improve my racing times.
In case you missed it, I addressed this in my last post:No I am not.
I agree that people can get cause and effect wrong including the "fit guy". I agree that people can have bias. We are all human just like the scientist conducting a study.
I enjoy reading about facts, data, science and theories that others are trying. I try many of them too! I learn from others and I learn from my mistakes. Learning isn't one dimensional.
However, my personal experience, my passion, my research and my personal real world results based on my personal actions do mean more to me than a study that tells me what "should happen" to me.
If I wanted to learn how to play in the NHL, personally, I would be way more interested in learning from Sidney Crosby and asking how he got there than I would be from a commentator who did not play in the NHL but does get paid full time to watch and study the game.
I would rather learn about SEO from someone who built up a site and is getting huge traffic from search than I would someone who studies SEO and offers a course on it.
Both approaches have flaws but I do trust my results over others theories and tests. If I had the chance to talk to someone who achieved what I wanted to achieve, I would be thrilled and I would place a huge amount of value on that. If I see something about a test finding I would be intrigued and likely want to learn more and verify its accuracy the best that I can.
And going back to the confusion piece. If I’m Googling away looking for how to get fit-and I haven’t exercised in 20 years and I’m sipping my 64 Oz big gulp and don’t know where to start or where I’m going, I’m going to be inundated with information.
I’m going to have 395959606 Fit Guys telling me to do xyz, abc, but only on the alternate 3rd Sunday of the Mars orbital schedule, just start light with 300 pounds on the bar and whatever you do-NEVER to cardio because gainz.
I’m going to have 928599505 brand new fitness bloggers telling me to do keto IF and if I really want to blast fat do HIIT. Whatever you do-don’t eat sugar. But honey is ok. But definitely no carbz ever because Satan created insulin.
Then you’ll have 2774959560 inspirational blog posts about morbidly obese people who now run marathons and ultras and how they still eat cookies and beer.
But wait? What about the carbz and the cardio? How come they aren’t dead?
But what do I even want? I just want to be healthy. I still don’t know what to do or where to go.
Except never cardio but definitely run, it’s ok to eat cookies but never eat a carb, and do HIIT? What is HIIT?
Note-I’m not looking for these answers. But for your average Joe - this is what they are confronted with. And they don’t know how to vet sources or what is nonsense and what isn’t. What is relevant and what isn’t.
Oh I love you Duck Puddle! This was the best answer because sooooooooooooooooo true!
Also, people believe. they want to believe. Even intelligent smart people will believe what a person who is "in the industry" tells them.
for example, i have a very good friend - very intelligent, lawyer and has worked in research institutions so knows all about research, who the other day presented me with a "healthy banana bread" that her nutritionist gave her the recipe for so that she'd eat that instead of cookies in the afternoon.
I calculated the macros based on the recipe and the thing was so laden with fat (because healthy coconut oil is good for you and bad flour is bad for you so gluten free) that she would have been better off eating cookies than this thing. My version of banana bread was 100 calories LESS than hers for same size serving.
I did not tell her this though, because she wants to lose weight EASILY - without counting calories or points or having any apps or anything.
So go ahead and eat half a loaf of banana bread at 244 calories per tiny slice of 1cm x 3cm x 2cm... because the nutritionist said that it was "healthy" and therefore must be better than cookies.
This really is interesting. It sounds like the "nutritionist" probably took some courses and didn't have her own real world knowledge learned from the results of the right form of exercise and energy balance.
Again, real world results seems to be an important part of the puzzle.0 -
If I wanted to get off the couch and learn how to sprint, the last place I should look for help is what Usain Bolt does. He is a freak of nature, with incredible genetics and habits and techniques personalized to his awesomeness.
Tom Brady thinks people should not eat tomatoes. He might be a future HOFer, but that doesn't mean he knows *kitten* about what parts of his ridiculous lifestyle are truly helping and which are superfluous first world entitled bs.
The biggest superstars rarely make great coaches or managers, getting to the top doesn't mean you understand what really got you there.
I think the average persons goal is to live a long healthy life, avoiding disease and staying active and vibrant. So the "best" of that class would be healthy elderly folks. Most very old folks asked for their secret usually mention alcohol and cigars lol. I've never heard a 95 yr old mention sprint intervals, fat bombs, or not eating after 7pm. I look to the Blue Zones as a general guide. Simple stuff <shrug>
Interesting. I certainly would want to talk to Usain Bolt. I would guess that for Usain Bolt, winning a gold medal was not his first step on a track in which his genetics won him the prize. That is probably a person who dedicated his entire life and focused his passion to perfect every aspect of sprinting and the bonus was his genetics. The information he could pass on would be invaluable to someone wanting to learn how to sprint fast. The idea is not to do exactly what he does but the idea is to learn from his real world journey and results... In my opinion.
I agree that someone older would have some wisdom on what they did. I may be wrong but I think a lot of people want "health" meaning to feel more like they did when they were in their 20's and fit (hopefully). I think those feelings "long healthy life, avoiding disease and staying active and vibrant" are typically what young healthy people have naturally. As a 41 year old my goal is to feel as close to how I felt when I was 21 and to be honest, I do in a lot of ways. In some ways I'm even stronger!0 -
jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
Where did I say that?
Ain't you insinuating everyone is the same by your Quote.
Not at all. Perhaps you missed this part?snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.4 -
jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
That's rather obviously not what was said.
You didn't assert that the same exercise plan might not be right for one person, even if it is for another. That's perfectly obvious and no one would disagree with that.
What you said is that a specific exercise might "work" for some people and not others. That's a rather confusing thing to say, since what are you considering "an exercise" and what do you mean by "working"?
The example given was a good one -- walking works in that you can burn some calories and improve fitness walking. There are exceptions -- not everyone is capable of walking -- but that doesn't really need to be pointed out.
Now, if I say walking can work for anyone, do I mean that the same walking plan would be beneficial for all, or that a plan based on walking is ideal for all? No, of course not. I'm a huge fan of walking more throughout the day (I live in a big city so this is easy for me), but for some people it won't help them with their fitness goals, and some may be so out of shape that they can only walk about a mile at first or can't walk at the same speed as others, etc.
Similarly, swimming is a great exercise, but some don't know how to swim or hate it, so it's not a good exercise for them. That doesn't mean the exercise itself wouldn't "work" as in some people have bodies that will not be made more fit by the motions of swimming.
Maybe you didn't mean something like that, but it sure seemed like you did.5 -
Thanks, @lemurcat2.
And an eating plan wasn't even mentioned in my post (just exercise), so if I wasn't confused at the start of this thread, I sure as heck am now!
3 -
In reality, it's pretty simple. Understand your calories in vs. calories out, set a target calorie goal based on your personal goals (lose, gain, maintain, etc). Build an exercise routine that focuses on strength training and cardio. There really is no need for most people to overcomplicate it.
BUT, there is A LOT of MONEY to be made from overcomplicating things for people. That's why you see so much of it. "My product/diet/lifestyle blog/app/whatever is the only thing that will work for you" is a pretty effective way to market, and it takes advantage of a lot of people who are looking for a quick fix to their struggles.
Yes, all you write is true. You just forgot one little item of the equation: Time. How long will it take to lose all that extra weight? How long is a piece of string? I know, I haven't gained 80 kg overnight - but how long will it take? Patience never was a strong point in my life...0 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »
Interesting. I certainly would want to talk to Usain Bolt. I would guess that for Usain Bolt, winning a gold medal was not his first step on a track in which his genetics won him the prize. That is probably a person who dedicated his entire life and focused his passion to perfect every aspect of sprinting and the bonus was his genetics. The information he could pass on would be invaluable to someone wanting to learn how to sprint fast. The idea is not to do exactly what he does but the idea is to learn from his real world journey and results... In my opinion.
Usain used to be pretty well known for just going to the track, running as fast as possible and not necessarily going mad with technique or nutrition or fine detail. Take it with a grain of salt but he apparently just ate his grannys cooking and as much of it as he could get when he was younger. He's just a crazy gifted sprinter. (I watched a BBC documentary once, this isn't gospel lol)
Now when I google I get countless "TRAIN LIKE USAIN" diet and workout programs so I guess he's figured out that approach doesn't sell.3 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »
Interesting. I certainly would want to talk to Usain Bolt. I would guess that for Usain Bolt, winning a gold medal was not his first step on a track in which his genetics won him the prize. That is probably a person who dedicated his entire life and focused his passion to perfect every aspect of sprinting and the bonus was his genetics. The information he could pass on would be invaluable to someone wanting to learn how to sprint fast. The idea is not to do exactly what he does but the idea is to learn from his real world journey and results... In my opinion.
Usain used to be pretty well known for just going to the track, running as fast as possible and not necessarily going mad with technique or nutrition or fine detail. Take it with a grain of salt but he apparently just ate his grannys cooking and as much of it as he could get when he was younger. He's just a crazy gifted sprinter. (I watched a BBC documentary once, this isn't gospel lol)
Now when I google I get countless "TRAIN LIKE USAIN" diet and workout programs so I guess he's figured out that approach doesn't sell.
Exactly. The best of the best often have unique genetics, natural gifts that can make how they train pretty useless for someone not as gifted. Add in the predominance of sports superstitions and the crazy egos that kind of domination can feed, and a superstar athlete could easily be the worst person to take advice from. I mean, it's fascinating and I'm not saying there isn't wisdom to be gained there, I just don't think there's any reason to trust it. Add in the distinct possibility that they are trying to sell something to pad the bank account, and you get plenty of highly successful fit people selling snake oil and insisting it was their secret.3 -
jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
That's rather obviously not what was said.
You didn't assert that the same exercise plan might not be right for one person, even if it is for another. That's perfectly obvious and no one would disagree with that.
What you said is that a specific exercise might "work" for some people and not others. That's a rather confusing thing to say, since what are you considering "an exercise" and what do you mean by "working"?
The example given was a good one -- walking works in that you can burn some calories and improve fitness walking. There are exceptions -- not everyone is capable of walking -- but that doesn't really need to be pointed out.
Now, if I say walking can work for anyone, do I mean that the same walking plan would be beneficial for all, or that a plan based on walking is ideal for all? No, of course not. I'm a huge fan of walking more throughout the day (I live in a big city so this is easy for me), but for some people it won't help them with their fitness goals, and some may be so out of shape that they can only walk about a mile at first or can't walk at the same speed as others, etc.
Similarly, swimming is a great exercise, but some don't know how to swim or hate it, so it's not a good exercise for them. That doesn't mean the exercise itself wouldn't "work" as in some people have bodies that will not be made more fit by the motions of swimming.
Maybe you didn't mean something like that, but it sure seemed like you did.
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!11 -
1. You will lose weight if calories in is less than calories out. You can't deny the laws of physics.
2. It is laughably easy to invent a diet regime that offers fewer calories than you need. That is why almost all diets will cause you to lose weight, even the shocking ones, if you can stick to them. The trick is to find one that you personally get on with and doesn't lead to life long food disorders.
3. There is no correlation between top level athletic achievement and long term health and longevity.
4. Elite athletes eat/wear/do/advertise many of the things they do because some manufacturer or egomaniacal empire building coach is telling/paying them to or giving it to them for free. It is impossible to tell for sure what part of success is down to a given regime or natural aptitude without running a large, double blind controlled clinical trial with identical participants. And some of them just plain cheat.
5. The fact that there is such a bewildering array of supposedly successful fitness/diet regimes just goes to show what a wonderful and adaptable thing the human body is.
6. The (known) biochemistry of nutrition is so complex and interrelated that you couldn't fit it in a 1000 page text book and it's still incomplete, so anything shoehorned into a magazine article or web page is so hopelessly simplistic, at best it's delusional, at worst it's cynical lies.
Everything in moderation :-)
4 -
jasonpoihegatama wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
That's rather obviously not what was said.
You didn't assert that the same exercise plan might not be right for one person, even if it is for another. That's perfectly obvious and no one would disagree with that.
What you said is that a specific exercise might "work" for some people and not others. That's a rather confusing thing to say, since what are you considering "an exercise" and what do you mean by "working"?
The example given was a good one -- walking works in that you can burn some calories and improve fitness walking. There are exceptions -- not everyone is capable of walking -- but that doesn't really need to be pointed out.
Now, if I say walking can work for anyone, do I mean that the same walking plan would be beneficial for all, or that a plan based on walking is ideal for all? No, of course not. I'm a huge fan of walking more throughout the day (I live in a big city so this is easy for me), but for some people it won't help them with their fitness goals, and some may be so out of shape that they can only walk about a mile at first or can't walk at the same speed as others, etc.
Similarly, swimming is a great exercise, but some don't know how to swim or hate it, so it's not a good exercise for them. That doesn't mean the exercise itself wouldn't "work" as in some people have bodies that will not be made more fit by the motions of swimming.
Maybe you didn't mean something like that, but it sure seemed like you did.
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Who is "Op"? Did you mean me?.... ooops... You meant "Original Poster"... message board lingo. My mistake.0
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