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FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
That's rather obviously not what was said.
You didn't assert that the same exercise plan might not be right for one person, even if it is for another. That's perfectly obvious and no one would disagree with that.
What you said is that a specific exercise might "work" for some people and not others. That's a rather confusing thing to say, since what are you considering "an exercise" and what do you mean by "working"?
The example given was a good one -- walking works in that you can burn some calories and improve fitness walking. There are exceptions -- not everyone is capable of walking -- but that doesn't really need to be pointed out.
Now, if I say walking can work for anyone, do I mean that the same walking plan would be beneficial for all, or that a plan based on walking is ideal for all? No, of course not. I'm a huge fan of walking more throughout the day (I live in a big city so this is easy for me), but for some people it won't help them with their fitness goals, and some may be so out of shape that they can only walk about a mile at first or can't walk at the same speed as others, etc.
Similarly, swimming is a great exercise, but some don't know how to swim or hate it, so it's not a good exercise for them. That doesn't mean the exercise itself wouldn't "work" as in some people have bodies that will not be made more fit by the motions of swimming.
Maybe you didn't mean something like that, but it sure seemed like you did.
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Who is "Op"? Did you mean me?
Yeah you0 -
Who is "Op"? Did you mean me?
Yup. Original Poster.
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FitFamilyGuy wrote: »
Interesting. I certainly would want to talk to Usain Bolt. I would guess that for Usain Bolt, winning a gold medal was not his first step on a track in which his genetics won him the prize. That is probably a person who dedicated his entire life and focused his passion to perfect every aspect of sprinting and the bonus was his genetics. The information he could pass on would be invaluable to someone wanting to learn how to sprint fast. The idea is not to do exactly what he does but the idea is to learn from his real world journey and results... In my opinion.
Usain used to be pretty well known for just going to the track, running as fast as possible and not necessarily going mad with technique or nutrition or fine detail. Take it with a grain of salt but he apparently just ate his grannys cooking and as much of it as he could get when he was younger. He's just a crazy gifted sprinter. (I watched a BBC documentary once, this isn't gospel lol)
Now when I google I get countless "TRAIN LIKE USAIN" diet and workout programs so I guess he's figured out that approach doesn't sell.
I'm still surprised but we can agree to disagree. If someone has done what I want to do, I want to know how they did it. I can use some of my own common sense to filter, test and research. I don't doubt that Usain Bolt or other extreme examples have a casual, laid back attitude that they portray. However, I find it hard to believe that under the facade there isn't a treasure trove of information from the early days to the advanced days.
Now some people would rather rely on an institution to give them information and some people would rather make things happen and learn from their experience. Some people would rather learn about business and some people would rather take a leap and start a business. We are all different. Some people thrive off the school of hard knocks and some people prefer to study. What is better? Perhaps both?
For me, 26 years of being fit, lean, strong, healthy, active, feeling young and balanced with a great family... I already have the answer for me. Hopefully the others in this debate have the answer that works just as well for them.1 -
jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.1 -
cmriverside wrote: »Who is "Op"? Did you mean me?
Yup. Original Poster.
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Haha... yeah I figured it out too late apparently as I edited the post too late. Not a big forum guy.0 -
Foundationally it is incredibly simple - CICO, be better today than you were yesterday, etc. This is in the physical realm.
This would be like someone saying I want to be smarter and struggling with what to do with their mental development. Go to college? Read a book? What subject? What discipline?
The problem exists largely with the source as people don't have enough knowledge to know what questions to ask. So they end up asking the wrong questions. Those well meaning and knowledgeable ask them more questions and this frustrates them. Those less well meaning and looking to take advantage sell them a plan they will likely fail at.
What works is simply being better today than you were yesterday, but people lack the patience and discipline to succeed long term.6 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Cahgetsfit wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
Actually- the mere fact that “fit guy” appears fit doesn’t mean he has anything valuable to say.
He achieved results perhaps because of, but equally likely in spite of, his methods.
99% of what is out there is irrelevant nonsense to begin with.
99% of actual studies minimize the noise because no, “fit guy” didn’t get fit because he does IF Keto vegan gluten free whey protein bomb shakes within a 27 minute window after only working legs on the 7th Tuesday of each full blood moon.
Also-“fit guy”s results are irrelevant to me if my goals are about race times and idgaf what my BF% is or how “lean” I look. So even within the context of lifting, my goals are for race performance.
Fit guy’s anecdotal info is nearly useless. He achieved results in spite of what he was doing. He also achieved results that aren’t aligned to my goals. But the internet is full of fit guys sharing their “knowledge” and “expertise”
Years ago, we went out to dinner with my son to celebrate his getting his driver’s license. He insisted on driving himself. We all left at the same time. He got to the restaurant an hour after we did. It was a 7 minute drive (for us). He also needed to borrow money to get some gas because he used all of his on the drive there. Did he get there? Yep. Did he take the best route? I suppose that depends on your definition of best. The internet is FULL of my son giving directions to the restauarant.
Studies are the GPS. Maybe they don’t have every address on planet earth-but I’ll take my chances with that over my kid any day.
Interesting Duck_Puddle. You should stick with that approach, especially if it is working for you!
If you want to learn how to improve your race time, I'd ask the fastest racer you can find. I wouldn't be asking "fit guy" about how to improve my racing times.
In case you missed it, I addressed this in my last post:No I am not.
I agree that people can get cause and effect wrong including the "fit guy". I agree that people can have bias. We are all human just like the scientist conducting a study.
I enjoy reading about facts, data, science and theories that others are trying. I try many of them too! I learn from others and I learn from my mistakes. Learning isn't one dimensional.
However, my personal experience, my passion, my research and my personal real world results based on my personal actions do mean more to me than a study that tells me what "should happen" to me.
If I wanted to learn how to play in the NHL, personally, I would be way more interested in learning from Sidney Crosby and asking how he got there than I would be from a commentator who did not play in the NHL but does get paid full time to watch and study the game.
I would rather learn about SEO from someone who built up a site and is getting huge traffic from search than I would someone who studies SEO and offers a course on it.
Both approaches have flaws but I do trust my results over others theories and tests. If I had the chance to talk to someone who achieved what I wanted to achieve, I would be thrilled and I would place a huge amount of value on that. If I see something about a test finding I would be intrigued and likely want to learn more and verify its accuracy the best that I can.
And going back to the confusion piece. If I’m Googling away looking for how to get fit-and I haven’t exercised in 20 years and I’m sipping my 64 Oz big gulp and don’t know where to start or where I’m going, I’m going to be inundated with information.
I’m going to have 395959606 Fit Guys telling me to do xyz, abc, but only on the alternate 3rd Sunday of the Mars orbital schedule, just start light with 300 pounds on the bar and whatever you do-NEVER to cardio because gainz.
I’m going to have 928599505 brand new fitness bloggers telling me to do keto IF and if I really want to blast fat do HIIT. Whatever you do-don’t eat sugar. But honey is ok. But definitely no carbz ever because Satan created insulin.
Then you’ll have 2774959560 inspirational blog posts about morbidly obese people who now run marathons and ultras and how they still eat cookies and beer.
But wait? What about the carbz and the cardio? How come they aren’t dead?
But what do I even want? I just want to be healthy. I still don’t know what to do or where to go.
Except never cardio but definitely run, it’s ok to eat cookies but never eat a carb, and do HIIT? What is HIIT?
Note-I’m not looking for these answers. But for your average Joe - this is what they are confronted with. And they don’t know how to vet sources or what is nonsense and what isn’t. What is relevant and what isn’t.
Oh I love you Duck Puddle! This was the best answer because sooooooooooooooooo true!
Also, people believe. they want to believe. Even intelligent smart people will believe what a person who is "in the industry" tells them.
for example, i have a very good friend - very intelligent, lawyer and has worked in research institutions so knows all about research, who the other day presented me with a "healthy banana bread" that her nutritionist gave her the recipe for so that she'd eat that instead of cookies in the afternoon.
I calculated the macros based on the recipe and the thing was so laden with fat (because healthy coconut oil is good for you and bad flour is bad for you so gluten free) that she would have been better off eating cookies than this thing. My version of banana bread was 100 calories LESS than hers for same size serving.
I did not tell her this though, because she wants to lose weight EASILY - without counting calories or points or having any apps or anything.
So go ahead and eat half a loaf of banana bread at 244 calories per tiny slice of 1cm x 3cm x 2cm... because the nutritionist said that it was "healthy" and therefore must be better than cookies.
This really is interesting. It sounds like the "nutritionist" probably took some courses and didn't have her own real world knowledge learned from the results of the right form of exercise and energy balance.
Again, real world results seems to be an important part of the puzzle.
Actually-I think this sounds more like a nutritionist who paid too much attention to people who “know” what works and not enough attention to science.
Gluten free/coconut oil/high fat/etc is all over the place as “healthy” and “the best” way to lose weight. People are dropping weight in droves on keto. So clearly, if I went to lose a lot of weight I should listen to the “best” people who have lost weight and start pouring oil in my coffee and never look at anything that even hints of grain ever again.
So this sounds exactly like a nutritionist who is getting information from sources you advocate as superior.
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jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
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FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
Regarding the bold - it isn't that there's no value in personal experience. It's the environment and the audience. I'm well muscled for 59 years old and can run circles around much younger co-workers, but there are some extremely advanced lifters/runners/swimmers/cyclists and so on that have been posting here for years, chatting with each other, sharing tips and tricks etc.
My wife and friends compliment me (which I am extremely grateful for!) but here...I am average at best. I'm not going to impress anyone here - they've seen better LoL. That's not humility by the way, just an acknowledgement. I have a 1st responder on my friends list that could bench press me with ease
I'm grateful she shares tips 
edit: Come to think of it, I have two women on my friends list that could bench press me with ease 4 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
Regarding the bold - it isn't that there's no value in personal experience. It's the environment and the audience. I'm well muscled for 59 years old and can run circles around much younger co-workers, but there are some extremely advanced lifters/runners/swimmers/cyclists and so on that have been posting here for years, chatting with each other, sharing tips and tricks etc.
My wife and friends compliment me (which I am extremely grateful for!) but here...I am average at best. I'm not going to impress anyone here - they've seen better LoL. That's not humility by the way, just an acknowledgement. I have a 1st responder on my friends list that could bench press me with ease I'm grateful she shares tips
edit: Come to think of it, I have two women on my friends list that could bench press me with ease
I apologize for not understanding your point. Feel free to clarify.
I hope I was not misunderstood. I know there are regular posters and even moderators who do this for a living. I was just elaborating on the point about personal experiences in general and the perceived value of them. When things are phrased in different ways they sometimes have a different impact on the reader. I do not take it personally.
Are you trying to say that here my fitness success is "average" so others won't value my path to success?
Again, I am sorry if I misunderstood your post.0 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
I think that’s missing what many of us are saying.
First-the topic was presented as a discussion about people being confused by an overload of conflicting information. Much of that information exists because people have chosen to share “what works for them”.
The topic seems to have morphed into a debate about whether one should only take info from the one guy who is “best” at something or from studies.
With what seems like perhaps a sprinkling of you wanting to share your methods.
What most of us are saying is that the reason what you’re doing “works” is because it follows the very principles that studies support. Whether or not you got your info from studies or by a vast trial and error process or by asking some dude at the gym who benches 500 or whatever source you used-the reason it “works” is because of science.
That’s true for everything that “works”.
When you get infomriaton from a person-you’re getting a lot of extraneous nonsense that really doesn’t have anything to do with why something actually “works”.
As an example - Keto works for weight loss if you’re in a calorie deficit. The end. Not insulin. Not carbs. Not high fat. Not IF, not magic fairies.
We are all open to hearing someone talk about how keto helps them achieve s calorie deficit. We are not open to people talking nonsense about the magic of keto and how keto just works and cures cancer and solves world hunger-just put MCT oil in your coffee and boom! You’ll be skinny because that’s what John in accounting did to lose 120 pounds. That is how you blend personal experience with science.
So yes, most of us are going to go with science first. Because everything that works, works because of the actual science-not necessarily what the person thinks is the reason.
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FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
Regarding the bold - it isn't that there's no value in personal experience. It's the environment and the audience. I'm well muscled for 59 years old and can run circles around much younger co-workers, but there are some extremely advanced lifters/runners/swimmers/cyclists and so on that have been posting here for years, chatting with each other, sharing tips and tricks etc.
My wife and friends compliment me (which I am extremely grateful for!) but here...I am average at best. I'm not going to impress anyone here - they've seen better LoL. That's not humility by the way, just an acknowledgement. I have a 1st responder on my friends list that could bench press me with ease I'm grateful she shares tips
edit: Come to think of it, I have two women on my friends list that could bench press me with ease
I apologize for not understanding your point. Feel free to clarify.
I hope I was not misunderstood. I know there are regular posters and even moderators who do this for a living. I was just elaborating on the point about personal experiences in general and the perceived value of them. When things are phrased in different ways they sometimes have a different impact on the reader. I do not take it personally.
Again, I am sorry if I misunderstood your post.
Oh no problem man - I may not have worded it fully and/or correctly.
Most of the folks I've had the pleasure of chatting with here are extremely fact and data oriented. Personal anecdotes are shared freely, but most discussions I've seen that have real weight behind them usually involve advanced techniques and form/links to why one protein may be referable over another/Why this combination of cardio + lifting may be better than that one.
One of my friends posts research papers about very advanced investigations into why 30%1RM high volume may or may not equal 70%1RM low volume etc.
Lots and lots of scientifically driven discussion. That takes precedence here over personal experience, which is almost impossible to quantify.
That's all I meant
edit: I just realized Duck_Puddle beat me to it - you're fast! 4 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Cardio, Muscle, Burn Fat, Weight Loss, Keto, Atkens, High Carb, Calories In Calories Out, Low Carb, Low Fat, HITT, Low Intensity cardio, Steroids, High Intensity cardio, Sugar, Supplements, Protein, Macros, Micros, Weights, Body Weight, Fitness Gadgets, Functional Training, Food Points... Wow!
No kidding people fail to burn fat and keep a lean healthy weight. Wow!
Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
Problem is that people don't want easy to follow. They want easy to do. Big difference.
There is a simple answer to what works for ALL people. Calories in vs. calories out. Easier to say than it is to do. Hence the reason for every single diet fad ever created.
This is so true and I'm guilty of this. This time around I'm taking the easy to follow approach even thought I know it will be more difficult. I've spent too much time and energy on the easy fixes that don't ever work.0 -
Why do I get the feeling there's a sales pitch coming?7
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jasonpoihegatama wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
That's rather obviously not what was said.
You didn't assert that the same exercise plan might not be right for one person, even if it is for another. That's perfectly obvious and no one would disagree with that.
What you said is that a specific exercise might "work" for some people and not others. That's a rather confusing thing to say, since what are you considering "an exercise" and what do you mean by "working"?
The example given was a good one -- walking works in that you can burn some calories and improve fitness walking. There are exceptions -- not everyone is capable of walking -- but that doesn't really need to be pointed out.
Now, if I say walking can work for anyone, do I mean that the same walking plan would be beneficial for all, or that a plan based on walking is ideal for all? No, of course not. I'm a huge fan of walking more throughout the day (I live in a big city so this is easy for me), but for some people it won't help them with their fitness goals, and some may be so out of shape that they can only walk about a mile at first or can't walk at the same speed as others, etc.
Similarly, swimming is a great exercise, but some don't know how to swim or hate it, so it's not a good exercise for them. That doesn't mean the exercise itself wouldn't "work" as in some people have bodies that will not be made more fit by the motions of swimming.
Maybe you didn't mean something like that, but it sure seemed like you did.
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
This is all reasonably sensible. Obviously you would want to tailor what you do to personal preferences and personality traits, but our biology is not different.i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine! A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same.
No one said it would be. (You seem really into exercise classes. That's a personal preference difference, as I am not a huge fan of them as my main way to exercise.)Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for!
Um, yes, increasing activity and decreasing food intake is how to lose weight, although it's true -- although not ideal -- that one can do it without exercising if one wants.There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan.
No one said there was.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Why on earth would group classes be the best way to go for everyone wanting to get fit and healthy?3 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
Regarding the bold - it isn't that there's no value in personal experience. It's the environment and the audience. I'm well muscled for 59 years old and can run circles around much younger co-workers, but there are some extremely advanced lifters/runners/swimmers/cyclists and so on that have been posting here for years, chatting with each other, sharing tips and tricks etc.
My wife and friends compliment me (which I am extremely grateful for!) but here...I am average at best. I'm not going to impress anyone here - they've seen better LoL. That's not humility by the way, just an acknowledgement. I have a 1st responder on my friends list that could bench press me with ease I'm grateful she shares tips
edit: Come to think of it, I have two women on my friends list that could bench press me with ease
I apologize for not understanding your point. Feel free to clarify.
I hope I was not misunderstood. I know there are regular posters and even moderators who do this for a living. I was just elaborating on the point about personal experiences in general and the perceived value of them. When things are phrased in different ways they sometimes have a different impact on the reader. I do not take it personally.
Are you trying to say that here my fitness success is "average" so others won't value my path to success?
Again, I am sorry if I misunderstood your post.
I'm going to speak for myself. No, I don't value your path to success. Honestly, I don't really care about a bunch of other people's n=1 experiments. I don't place any credibility in them. the data is far too subjective I would guess I'm not the only one that feels this way.
My question is, why do you seem to need other people to care about your individual experience? There are all kinds of resources of knowledge. Some if these resources are with people who both have achieved individual results and use an evidence based approach. If I can use Eric Helms, Brad Schoenfeld, Menno Henselman, Lyle McDonald or Layne Norton as resources, why would I care about your 1-off?
Personally, I'm going with the folks with the education, achievements and backgrounds.9 -
Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
I think that’s missing what many of us are saying.
First-the topic was presented as a discussion about people being confused by an overload of conflicting information. Much of that information exists because people have chosen to share “what works for them”.
The topic seems to have morphed into a debate about whether one should only take info from the one guy who is “best” at something or from studies.
With what seems like perhaps a sprinkling of you wanting to share your methods.
What most of us are saying is that the reason what you’re doing “works” is because it follows the very principles that studies support. Whether or not you got your info from studies or by a vast trial and error process or by asking some dude at the gym who benches 500 or whatever source you used-the reason it “works” is because of science.
That’s true for everything that “works”.
When you get infomriaton from a person-you’re getting a lot of extraneous nonsense that really doesn’t have anything to do with why something actually “works”.
As an example - Keto works for weight loss if you’re in a calorie deficit. The end. Not insulin. Not carbs. Not high fat. Not IF, not magic fairies.
We are all open to hearing someone talk about how keto helps them achieve s calorie deficit. We are not open to people talking nonsense about the magic of keto and how keto just works and cures cancer and solves world hunger-just put MCT oil in your coffee and boom! You’ll be skinny because that’s what John in accounting did to lose 120 pounds. That is how you blend personal experience with science.
So yes, most of us are going to go with science first. Because everything that works, works because of the actual science-not necessarily what the person thinks is the reason.
The posts are interesting and you make some really good points. Boy... again... too much time at this. Anyway, I'll try to address your points clearly.
I agree that the topic has morphed. It is tough to control the direction but responses take on a life of their own. I would like to clarify a few things though.
a) I get that I became the "fit guy" but I think "fit guy" also represents the hypothetical. This "suggestion" came from someone replying to the posts, not from me.
b) I haven't once talked about what I actually do, do. I've only been using the "fit guy" concept to compare the different ways of learning and improving health.
c) As open as a forum can be, there are limitations and controls that don't allow for further elaboration off of these short posts simply because it isn't allowed. A link to a video or article will be seen as self promotion and some comments can quickly become buried to keep the boards looking less "spammy" or shape the conversation or for other reasons. I understand why this exists but it does in some ways narrow the discussion.
You make some great points about "Keto" versus what is really happening. I totally agree with this. Again, I think this comes down to some common sense filtering, researching, trying. At the end of the day that person got some results so it is probably worth looking into. However, the common sense filtering might suggest that the results were really fast, short track record, possibly temporary and unhealthy... perhaps there is a better example or roll model out there.
Again, I think there are advantages and disadvantages in both approaches. I love learning about scientific findings. I can't keep listing them all, all of the time. I still think there is a huge amount of value in learning from the guy who walks the walk, has long term success, makes sense, isn't making outrageous claims, sounds logical... etc. How can I not feel passionate about something that has proven to work really well for me for nearly two thirds of my life? Interesting stuff though. It seems pretty clear how confusion quickly builds! Haha!
7 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »
Interesting. I certainly would want to talk to Usain Bolt. I would guess that for Usain Bolt, winning a gold medal was not his first step on a track in which his genetics won him the prize. That is probably a person who dedicated his entire life and focused his passion to perfect every aspect of sprinting and the bonus was his genetics. The information he could pass on would be invaluable to someone wanting to learn how to sprint fast. The idea is not to do exactly what he does but the idea is to learn from his real world journey and results... In my opinion.
Usain used to be pretty well known for just going to the track, running as fast as possible and not necessarily going mad with technique or nutrition or fine detail. Take it with a grain of salt but he apparently just ate his grannys cooking and as much of it as he could get when he was younger. He's just a crazy gifted sprinter. (I watched a BBC documentary once, this isn't gospel lol)
Now when I google I get countless "TRAIN LIKE USAIN" diet and workout programs so I guess he's figured out that approach doesn't sell.
It is worth considering that this can be misdirection. I know that Michael Phelps made a lot of news rounds with a 12,000 calorie training diet. After the Olympics, it turned out he wasn't using that many calories - he just put up an incredibly high number to convince his competition he was training that hard to psych them out and potentially get them to commit to overtraining.2 -
Why do I get the feeling there's a sales pitch coming?
From me? Not yet. Haha... Do you want one? Haha... I don't have a sales pitch but I do strongly believe that my message helped me and it can help others. I wish I could help millions of people learn the things that have served me well. That would be really rewarding and a positive contribution to society. But I don't think these posts are reaching out too far... funny post on your end though. I chuckled. 6
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