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FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
I feel like you're moving the goalposts. You wondered in the OP how a typical person can avoid getting confused by all the different "experts" and techniques. Most of the responses advised learning how to vet sources better and basing everything on what has been scientifically proven.
Now you're arguing that we're saying an individuals experience isn't valuable. We are simply saying that a person's experience is only as valuable as their understanding of the scientific and biological processes at work. You have clearly had great success. But with all due respect, I have no clue who you are or what you have based your techniques on. You might have followed some weird protocol with crazy rules, and that protocol worked by keeping you at the right amount of calories, and challenging your muscles aporopriately. But you are understandably convinced that your weird protocol was the key. So now I start following your weird protocol, but because of my lifestyle it leaves me with too many calories and too much stress on my joints, leaving me overweight and injured, because I'm a woman and smaller and less active than you. If I had compared your story with what I know to be established science and biology, I would have known to either disregard it or to at least see through your protocol to what really worked.
Also, most of the more recent posts are arguing against taking advice from the best of the best. And you are conflating that with your experience being worthless. Are you saying you are in the same league with Bolt and Brady?12 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
Regarding the bold - it isn't that there's no value in personal experience. It's the environment and the audience. I'm well muscled for 59 years old and can run circles around much younger co-workers, but there are some extremely advanced lifters/runners/swimmers/cyclists and so on that have been posting here for years, chatting with each other, sharing tips and tricks etc.
My wife and friends compliment me (which I am extremely grateful for!) but here...I am average at best. I'm not going to impress anyone here - they've seen better LoL. That's not humility by the way, just an acknowledgement. I have a 1st responder on my friends list that could bench press me with ease
I'm grateful she shares tips 
edit: Come to think of it, I have two women on my friends list that could bench press me with ease
I apologize for not understanding your point. Feel free to clarify.
I hope I was not misunderstood. I know there are regular posters and even moderators who do this for a living. I was just elaborating on the point about personal experiences in general and the perceived value of them. When things are phrased in different ways they sometimes have a different impact on the reader. I do not take it personally.
Again, I am sorry if I misunderstood your post.
Oh no problem man - I may not have worded it fully and/or correctly.
Most of the folks I've had the pleasure of chatting with here are extremely fact and data oriented. Personal anecdotes are shared freely, but most discussions I've seen that have real weight behind them usually involve advanced techniques and form/links to why one protein may be referable over another/Why this combination of cardio + lifting may be better than that one.
One of my friends posts research papers about very advanced investigations into why 30%1RM high volume may or may not equal 70%1RM low volume etc.
Lots and lots of scientifically driven discussion. That takes precedence here over personal experience, which is almost impossible to quantify.
That's all I meant
edit: I just realized Duck_Puddle beat me to it - you're fast!
I'm running short on time so please excuse the quickly reply. I totally appreciate your point and agree as I too like to learn about facts and data. This shouldn't get lost in my replies. However, if I find someone I look up to because of their results, I want to know more. Not only that but I think it explains a lot about what does and does not work. That seems logical to me and it serves me well.0 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
Keep in mind that many fit people are fit despite their lack of knowledge, mainly due to adherence, not because of their knowledge.6 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
I think that’s missing what many of us are saying.
First-the topic was presented as a discussion about people being confused by an overload of conflicting information. Much of that information exists because people have chosen to share “what works for them”.
The topic seems to have morphed into a debate about whether one should only take info from the one guy who is “best” at something or from studies.
With what seems like perhaps a sprinkling of you wanting to share your methods.
What most of us are saying is that the reason what you’re doing “works” is because it follows the very principles that studies support. Whether or not you got your info from studies or by a vast trial and error process or by asking some dude at the gym who benches 500 or whatever source you used-the reason it “works” is because of science.
That’s true for everything that “works”.
When you get infomriaton from a person-you’re getting a lot of extraneous nonsense that really doesn’t have anything to do with why something actually “works”.
As an example - Keto works for weight loss if you’re in a calorie deficit. The end. Not insulin. Not carbs. Not high fat. Not IF, not magic fairies.
We are all open to hearing someone talk about how keto helps them achieve s calorie deficit. We are not open to people talking nonsense about the magic of keto and how keto just works and cures cancer and solves world hunger-just put MCT oil in your coffee and boom! You’ll be skinny because that’s what John in accounting did to lose 120 pounds. That is how you blend personal experience with science.
So yes, most of us are going to go with science first. Because everything that works, works because of the actual science-not necessarily what the person thinks is the reason.
The posts are interesting and you make some really good points. Boy... again... too much time at this. Anyway, I'll try to address your points clearly.
I agree that the topic has morphed. It is tough to control the direction but responses take on a life of their own. I would like to clarify a few things though.
a) I get that I became the "fit guy" but I think "fit guy" also represents the hypothetical. This "suggestion" came from someone replying to the posts, not from me.
b) I haven't once talked about what I actually do, do. I've only been using the "fit guy" concept to compare the different ways of learning and improving health.
c) As open as a forum can be, there are limitations and controls that don't allow for further elaboration off of these short posts simply because it isn't allowed. A link to a video or article will be seen as self promotion and some comments can quickly become buried to keep the boards looking less "spammy" or shape the conversation or for other reasons. I understand why this exists but it does in some ways narrow the discussion.
You make some great points about "Keto" versus what is really happening. I totally agree with this. Again, I think this comes down to some common sense filtering, researching, trying. At the end of the day that person got some results so it is probably worth looking into. However, the common sense filtering might suggest that the results were really fast, short track record, possibly temporary and unhealthy... perhaps there is a better example or roll model out there.
Again, I think there are advantages and disadvantages in both approaches. I love learning about scientific findings. I can't keep listing them all, all of the time. I still think there is a huge amount of value in learning from the guy who walks the walk, has long term success, makes sense, isn't making outrageous claims, sounds logical... etc. How can I not feel passionate about something that has proven to work really well for me for nearly two thirds of my life? Interesting stuff though. It seems pretty clear how confusion quickly builds! Haha!
I think the gist of what I’m saying isn’t coming across.
If I need to know going in to my keto conversation that keto works because of a calorie deficit (which I know from studies), then what value is there in talking to John in accounting to listen to a big promo for MCT oil?
None.
What he did worked because of the science. I got nothing of value from talking to him.
The same is true of fitness. Science rules. Personal anecdotes are ok-but really not valuable without the science.
8 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
Actually- the mere fact that “fit guy” appears fit doesn’t mean he has anything valuable to say.
He achieved results perhaps because of, but equally likely in spite of, his methods.
99% of what is out there is irrelevant nonsense to begin with.
99% of actual studies minimize the noise because no, “fit guy” didn’t get fit because he does IF Keto vegan gluten free whey protein bomb shakes within a 27 minute window after only working legs on the 7th Tuesday of each full blood moon.
Also-“fit guy”s results are irrelevant to me if my goals are about race times and idgaf what my BF% is or how “lean” I look. So even within the context of lifting, my goals are for race performance.
Fit guy’s anecdotal info is nearly useless. He achieved results in spite of what he was doing. He also achieved results that aren’t aligned to my goals. But the internet is full of fit guys sharing their “knowledge” and “expertise”
Years ago, we went out to dinner with my son to celebrate his getting his driver’s license. He insisted on driving himself. We all left at the same time. He got to the restaurant an hour after we did. It was a 7 minute drive (for us). He also needed to borrow money to get some gas because he used all of his on the drive there. Did he get there? Yep. Did he take the best route? I suppose that depends on your definition of best. The internet is FULL of my son giving directions to the restauarant.
Studies are the GPS. Maybe they don’t have every address on planet earth-but I’ll take my chances with that over my kid any day.
Interesting Duck_Puddle. You should stick with that approach, especially if it is working for you!
If you want to learn how to improve your race time, I'd ask the fastest racer you can find. I wouldn't be asking "fit guy" about how to improve my racing times.
In case you missed it, I addressed this in my last post:No I am not.
I agree that people can get cause and effect wrong including the "fit guy". I agree that people can have bias. We are all human just like the scientist conducting a study.
I enjoy reading about facts, data, science and theories that others are trying. I try many of them too! I learn from others and I learn from my mistakes. Learning isn't one dimensional.
However, my personal experience, my passion, my research and my personal real world results based on my personal actions do mean more to me than a study that tells me what "should happen" to me.
If I wanted to learn how to play in the NHL, personally, I would be way more interested in learning from Sidney Crosby and asking how he got there than I would be from a commentator who did not play in the NHL but does get paid full time to watch and study the game.
I would rather learn about SEO from someone who built up a site and is getting huge traffic from search than I would someone who studies SEO and offers a course on it.
Both approaches have flaws but I do trust my results over others theories and tests. If I had the chance to talk to someone who achieved what I wanted to achieve, I would be thrilled and I would place a huge amount of value on that. If I see something about a test finding I would be intrigued and likely want to learn more and verify its accuracy the best that I can.
the "fast guy" is probably fast due to following a coach's program, adherance, and genetics, not his own knowledge. I would be more inclined to ask who is trainer/team is8 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
So, are you saying you think that individual anecdote is more valuable than scientific studies?
No I am not.
I agree that people can get cause and effect wrong including the "fit guy". I agree that people can have bias. We are all human just like the scientist conducting a study.
I enjoy reading about facts, data, science and theories that others are trying. I try many of them too! I learn from others and I learn from my mistakes. Learning isn't one dimensional.
However, my personal experience, my passion, my research and my personal real world results based on my personal actions do mean more to me than a study that tells me what "should happen" to me.
If I wanted to learn how to play in the NHL, personally, I would be way more interested in learning from Sidney Crosby and asking how he got there than I would be from a commentator who did not play in the NHL but does get paid full time to watch and study the game.
I would rather learn about SEO from someone who built up a site and is getting huge traffic from search than I would someone who studies SEO and offers a course on it.
Both approaches have flaws but I do trust my results over others theories and tests. If I had the chance to talk to someone who achieved what I wanted to achieve, I would be thrilled and I would place a huge amount of value on that. If I see something about a test finding I would be intrigued and likely want to learn more and verify its accuracy the best that I can.
But the way they achieved the success may not be the most efficient... they may have even had success despite doing the wrong things... happens all the time. and if that person was doing the right things, imagine how much better there results would have been!4 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
Regarding the bold - it isn't that there's no value in personal experience. It's the environment and the audience. I'm well muscled for 59 years old and can run circles around much younger co-workers, but there are some extremely advanced lifters/runners/swimmers/cyclists and so on that have been posting here for years, chatting with each other, sharing tips and tricks etc.
My wife and friends compliment me (which I am extremely grateful for!) but here...I am average at best. I'm not going to impress anyone here - they've seen better LoL. That's not humility by the way, just an acknowledgement. I have a 1st responder on my friends list that could bench press me with ease I'm grateful she shares tips
edit: Come to think of it, I have two women on my friends list that could bench press me with ease
I apologize for not understanding your point. Feel free to clarify.
I hope I was not misunderstood. I know there are regular posters and even moderators who do this for a living. I was just elaborating on the point about personal experiences in general and the perceived value of them. When things are phrased in different ways they sometimes have a different impact on the reader. I do not take it personally.
Are you trying to say that here my fitness success is "average" so others won't value my path to success?
Again, I am sorry if I misunderstood your post.
I'm going to speak for myself. No, I don't value your path to success. Honestly, I don't really care about a bunch of other people's n=1 experiments. I don't place any credibility in them. the data is far too subjective I would guess I'm not the only one that feels this way.
My question is, why do you seem to need other people to care about your individual experience? There are all kinds of resources of knowledge. Some if these resources are with people who both have achieved individual results and use an evidence based approach. If I can use Eric Helms, Brad Schoenfeld, Menno Henselman, Lyle McDonald or Layne Norton as resources, why would I care about your 1-off?
Personally, I'm going with the folks with the education, achievements and backgrounds.
Fair enough. It sounds like your using some filtering to decide who you can relate to the best. This makes sense. This is my point. I do this too. Your following people you feel set a good example.
Without going over all of your examples I would suggest that there may be reasons for or against all of them. Perhaps some are not offering a clear message that resonates with one person but it does not with someone else. I don't think you should listen to me if you found reasons that don't resonate with you.
Perhaps if you understood what I have done you would be amazed and thrilled that you were a little more open minded. Maybe you would find out that my approach doesn't offer much at all. Personally, I'm open minded. I like to hear how others got from A to B especially if I want to get to B and I can relate to the way they think.6 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
Regarding the bold - it isn't that there's no value in personal experience. It's the environment and the audience. I'm well muscled for 59 years old and can run circles around much younger co-workers, but there are some extremely advanced lifters/runners/swimmers/cyclists and so on that have been posting here for years, chatting with each other, sharing tips and tricks etc.
My wife and friends compliment me (which I am extremely grateful for!) but here...I am average at best. I'm not going to impress anyone here - they've seen better LoL. That's not humility by the way, just an acknowledgement. I have a 1st responder on my friends list that could bench press me with ease I'm grateful she shares tips
edit: Come to think of it, I have two women on my friends list that could bench press me with ease
I apologize for not understanding your point. Feel free to clarify.
I hope I was not misunderstood. I know there are regular posters and even moderators who do this for a living. I was just elaborating on the point about personal experiences in general and the perceived value of them. When things are phrased in different ways they sometimes have a different impact on the reader. I do not take it personally.
Are you trying to say that here my fitness success is "average" so others won't value my path to success?
Again, I am sorry if I misunderstood your post.
I'm going to speak for myself. No, I don't value your path to success. Honestly, I don't really care about a bunch of other people's n=1 experiments. I don't place any credibility in them. the data is far too subjective I would guess I'm not the only one that feels this way.
My question is, why do you seem to need other people to care about your individual experience? There are all kinds of resources of knowledge. Some if these resources are with people who both have achieved individual results and use an evidence based approach. If I can use Eric Helms, Brad Schoenfeld, Menno Henselman, Lyle McDonald or Layne Norton as resources, why would I care about your 1-off?
Personally, I'm going with the folks with the education, achievements and backgrounds.
Sorry if I missed your point about what I care about. I hope this doesn't get personal. I have no desire to make personal comments or get into unproductive exchanges. I'm only trying to stay on topic, address others questions or comments such "fit guy" which was kind of referring to me. The conversation has taken twists and turns between a lot of people. Why is anyone on a message board sharing ideas, thoughts, opinions, experiences? I have been exchanging on this topic but I have not talked about "what I do" and asked anyone to do what I do. I think my opinion about effective ways to filter through the noise is valid.6 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
I feel like you're moving the goalposts. You wondered in the OP how a typical person can avoid getting confused by all the different "experts" and techniques. Most of the responses advised learning how to vet sources better and basing everything on what has been scientifically proven.
Now you're arguing that we're saying an individuals experience isn't valuable. We are simply saying that a person's experience is only as valuable as their understanding of the scientific and biological processes at work. You have clearly had great success. But with all due respect, I have no clue who you are or what you have based your techniques on. You might have followed some weird protocol with crazy rules, and that protocol worked by keeping you at the right amount of calories, and challenging your muscles aporopriately. But you are understandably convinced that your weird protocol was the key. So now I start following your weird protocol, but because of my lifestyle it leaves me with too many calories and too much stress on my joints, leaving me overweight and injured, because I'm a woman and smaller and less active than you. If I had compared your story with what I know to be established science and biology, I would have known to either disregard it or to at least see through your protocol to what really worked.
Also, most of the more recent posts are arguing against taking advice from the best of the best. And you are conflating that with your experience being worthless. Are you saying you are in the same league with Bolt and Brady?
Hi Kinny72, Thank you for your reply. I have to admit that I am falling behind and not able to keep up. You wrote, "We are simply saying..." May I ask who "we" is? To cut though the noise and go back to the original post, is it really that controversial that there is a "we" against me? Holly molly. I can't keep up to multiple posters "we" with a history of hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of posts each.
I'm not really sure how to continue. Bend to the pressure and agree that science is the only way to go? Go silent? I don't really know where to start. I will say that I certainly don't mean to move the goalposts. There are a lot of moving parts between a lot of comments. Without being paid to be posting here, it can be a bit much. I do stick to my original post and the message behind it. I appreciate anyone who has joined in and I apologize if I can't address everyone's point.6 -
As I'm sure has been mentioned many times, there's no money to be made by teaching people to eat fewer calories than they burn. Unfortunately the diet industry is all about making $$ not about actually helping people.4
-
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
I feel like you're moving the goalposts. You wondered in the OP how a typical person can avoid getting confused by all the different "experts" and techniques. Most of the responses advised learning how to vet sources better and basing everything on what has been scientifically proven.
Now you're arguing that we're saying an individuals experience isn't valuable. We are simply saying that a person's experience is only as valuable as their understanding of the scientific and biological processes at work. You have clearly had great success. But with all due respect, I have no clue who you are or what you have based your techniques on. You might have followed some weird protocol with crazy rules, and that protocol worked by keeping you at the right amount of calories, and challenging your muscles aporopriately. But you are understandably convinced that your weird protocol was the key. So now I start following your weird protocol, but because of my lifestyle it leaves me with too many calories and too much stress on my joints, leaving me overweight and injured, because I'm a woman and smaller and less active than you. If I had compared your story with what I know to be established science and biology, I would have known to either disregard it or to at least see through your protocol to what really worked.
Also, most of the more recent posts are arguing against taking advice from the best of the best. And you are conflating that with your experience being worthless. Are you saying you are in the same league with Bolt and Brady?
Hi Kinny72, Thank you for your reply. I have to admit that I am falling behind and not able to keep up. You wrote, "We are simply saying..." May I ask who "we" is? To cut though the noise and go back to the original post, is it really that controversial that there is a "we" against me? Holly molly. I can't keep up to multiple posters "we" with a history of hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of posts each.
I'm not really sure how to continue. Bend to the pressure and agree that science is the only way to go? Go silent? I don't really know where to start. I will say that I certainly don't mean to move the goalposts. There are a lot of moving parts between a lot of comments. Without being paid to be posting here, it can be a bit much. I do stick to my original post and the message behind it. I appreciate anyone who has joined in and I apologize if I can't address everyone's point.
This community is extremely evidence based. There are hundreds of posts every day from people who have found some blog or info posted by a “fit guy” (or girl) and they are hopelessly confused by the amount of conflicting information from all the assorted “fit guys” (and girls) out posting their one true way (that is different than all the other one true ways...), or they aren’t able to follow the one true way, or they aren’t getting results or seeing success from the one true way.
That’s probably 80% of the posts here.
The one true way is the science behind all the methods that takes away the nonsense and helps people find THEIR way.
So yes-in this community-you’re not going to find a lot of support for bro-science, anything describing a single methodology that is absolutely universal for every single person regardless of goals, skills, preferences, etc (except CICO for weight management and following the appropriate science based theories for the training of choice - those will be supported), or anything else that doesn’t have evidence based backing.
Because science IS uninvrrsal. And it’s the only thing that is universal and it’s the only thing to make sense of the vast piles of garbage information out there.
It’s not we against you. None of this is about YOU at all.
Your original post asked if we didn’t have a good idea what works. We do. And it’s because there are studies to back it up.
This particular community is never going to choose random anecdotal “evidence” over science because random blogs and brosience is why people end up here asking questions in the first place.12 -
Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
I feel like you're moving the goalposts. You wondered in the OP how a typical person can avoid getting confused by all the different "experts" and techniques. Most of the responses advised learning how to vet sources better and basing everything on what has been scientifically proven.
Now you're arguing that we're saying an individuals experience isn't valuable. We are simply saying that a person's experience is only as valuable as their understanding of the scientific and biological processes at work. You have clearly had great success. But with all due respect, I have no clue who you are or what you have based your techniques on. You might have followed some weird protocol with crazy rules, and that protocol worked by keeping you at the right amount of calories, and challenging your muscles aporopriately. But you are understandably convinced that your weird protocol was the key. So now I start following your weird protocol, but because of my lifestyle it leaves me with too many calories and too much stress on my joints, leaving me overweight and injured, because I'm a woman and smaller and less active than you. If I had compared your story with what I know to be established science and biology, I would have known to either disregard it or to at least see through your protocol to what really worked.
Also, most of the more recent posts are arguing against taking advice from the best of the best. And you are conflating that with your experience being worthless. Are you saying you are in the same league with Bolt and Brady?
Hi Kinny72, Thank you for your reply. I have to admit that I am falling behind and not able to keep up. You wrote, "We are simply saying..." May I ask who "we" is? To cut though the noise and go back to the original post, is it really that controversial that there is a "we" against me? Holly molly. I can't keep up to multiple posters "we" with a history of hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of posts each.
I'm not really sure how to continue. Bend to the pressure and agree that science is the only way to go? Go silent? I don't really know where to start. I will say that I certainly don't mean to move the goalposts. There are a lot of moving parts between a lot of comments. Without being paid to be posting here, it can be a bit much. I do stick to my original post and the message behind it. I appreciate anyone who has joined in and I apologize if I can't address everyone's point.
This community is extremely evidence based. There are hundreds of posts every day from people who have found some blog or info posted by a “fit guy” (or girl) and they are hopelessly confused by the amount of conflicting information from all the assorted “fit guys” (and girls) out posting their one true way (that is different than all the other one true ways...), or they aren’t able to follow the one true way, or they aren’t getting results or seeing success from the one true way.
That’s probably 80% of the posts here.
The one true way is the science behind all the methods that takes away the nonsense and helps people find THEIR way.
So yes-in this community-you’re not going to find a lot of support for bro-science, anything describing a single methodology that is absolutely universal for every single person regardless of goals, skills, preferences, etc (except CICO for weight management and following the appropriate science based theories for the training of choice - those will be supported), or anything else that doesn’t have evidence based backing.
Because science IS uninvrrsal. And it’s the only thing that is universal and it’s the only thing to make sense of the vast piles of garbage information out there.
It’s not we against you. None of this is about YOU at all.
Your original post asked if we didn’t have a good idea what works. We do. And it’s because there are studies to back it up.
This particular community is never going to choose random anecdotal “evidence” over science because random blogs and brosience is why people end up here asking questions in the first place.
Bolded quoted for truth.
Honestly, this whole thread from the OP has seems like one big campaign to get people to ask what he does and have him impart his wisdom. And a lot of people saying, no thanks. Right from the click baitey title to the changing goal posts and the humble brag about 26 years of success. That's why one poster asked what the OP was selling. He keeps trying to make the discussion about him and what he's done.
The point I was trying to make with my previous post was similar to what you are saying. I don't really care what some rando on the internet claims to have done and wants to show everyone in order to "help". There is plenty of evidence based info out there and plenty of people like the ones I've mentioned my first post that have the credentials and the experience.
9 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »
Op said; Do we not have pretty good real world examples of what does and does not work for most people?... there are always exceptions and people do vary but in 2019, can't we point to examples of real world strategies that tend to result in lean, fit people from easy to follow principles?
i said No! everyone is different you will not get the same results. You have your opinion about this that's fine!
A group of people can go do a exercise class and they will all benefit from it but there results will not be the same. Some may say if you need to lose weight you need to eat less and train harder! Now this is not always the case!!! because there is so many factors that should be accounted for! There is no such thing as one size fits all exercise and eating plan. Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
Well, OP also said this:
And he's correct about that and I believe this is what much of the debate stems from, information.Information is great but it really amazes me just how much information and debate complicates some very simple concepts about fitness.
Regarding the bold - I see this a lot, and you've stated some variation of it multiple times. Although there is some truth there, there are also known variables that can be accounted for, studied in control groups of various sizes and conclusions drawn with reasonable certainty.
It sounds as though you're opting for a free for all approach regarding known science and techniques because not all participants may not have the same exact results.
Is that accurate? If so, I respectfully disagree.Unless your goal is to get fit and health then group classes will be the way to go But if you think everyone is going to look like Op after 4 years of classes this would not be the case!!!
I would like to add to this. I don't do "group classes" to achieve my results and I don't think group classes is the best way to "get fit and healthy".
I can say that I have kept a similar build to what my picture shows for 26 years straight. I have done that with as little as three trips a week to the gym and as much as seven. Personally, I consider myself healthy for 41 years old and I attribute it to my conscious decisions and actions, not because I am lucky.
Would my approach work for others? Apparently some of the posters could care less and feel that there is little to no value in others personal experiences. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate but we are all different. Heck sometimes business takes over because it isn't profitable for an organization to have potential customers paying attention to individuals. We are all different. Again, I think there is a lot of value in hearing how others do what they do, if it is what I want to be able to do too. Haha, silly last sentence.
I feel like you're moving the goalposts. You wondered in the OP how a typical person can avoid getting confused by all the different "experts" and techniques. Most of the responses advised learning how to vet sources better and basing everything on what has been scientifically proven.
Now you're arguing that we're saying an individuals experience isn't valuable. We are simply saying that a person's experience is only as valuable as their understanding of the scientific and biological processes at work. You have clearly had great success. But with all due respect, I have no clue who you are or what you have based your techniques on. You might have followed some weird protocol with crazy rules, and that protocol worked by keeping you at the right amount of calories, and challenging your muscles aporopriately. But you are understandably convinced that your weird protocol was the key. So now I start following your weird protocol, but because of my lifestyle it leaves me with too many calories and too much stress on my joints, leaving me overweight and injured, because I'm a woman and smaller and less active than you. If I had compared your story with what I know to be established science and biology, I would have known to either disregard it or to at least see through your protocol to what really worked.
Also, most of the more recent posts are arguing against taking advice from the best of the best. And you are conflating that with your experience being worthless. Are you saying you are in the same league with Bolt and Brady?
Hi Kinny72, Thank you for your reply. I have to admit that I am falling behind and not able to keep up. You wrote, "We are simply saying..." May I ask who "we" is? To cut though the noise and go back to the original post, is it really that controversial that there is a "we" against me? Holly molly. I can't keep up to multiple posters "we" with a history of hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of posts each.
I'm not really sure how to continue. Bend to the pressure and agree that science is the only way to go? Go silent? I don't really know where to start. I will say that I certainly don't mean to move the goalposts. There are a lot of moving parts between a lot of comments. Without being paid to be posting here, it can be a bit much. I do stick to my original post and the message behind it. I appreciate anyone who has joined in and I apologize if I can't address everyone's point.
I'm sorry, I missed where this thread was personally about you, I thought based on your original post it was a debate about the overwhelming and often contradictory info out there. But you're taking the responses personally so I guess maybe you really wanted to talk about you? I suspect part of the problem you're running up against is most of the posters who were drawn into your thread are already having our own success. And we got there by shutting out all the self proclaimed experts and noisy chatter and just seeking the science. We're not confused anymore. If you're looking for confused people who are interested in random "experts" n=1 theories, you might have better luck on FB and you tube.
And I'm not getting paid to be here either
Edited to add : for future reference, if you put your post in the Debate section, you should expect push back, that's kind of the point!12 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Why do I get the feeling there's a sales pitch coming?
From me? Not yet. Haha... Do you want one? Haha... I don't have a sales pitch but I do strongly believe that my message helped me and it can help others. I wish I could help millions of people learn the things that have served me well. That would be really rewarding and a positive contribution to society. But I don't think these posts are reaching out too far... funny post on your end though. I chuckled.
So you're drumming up traffic then? I bet there's a blog or a website or a podcast involved. Maybe a handy "donation" page to support your mission to help people?
ETA: If you were drumming up traffic or trying to build a rep, you'd have a twitter account for the promotion. You should tweet at Lyle Mcdonald or Layne Norton with some of your ideas, see how that goes.
11 -
Hey folks - a friendly reminder to keep this debate to the issue and not the personalities or people posting.0
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A lot of feedback.
Personally... I can't speak for anyone but myself and I don't have a "we" to address you all. I was doing my best to address everything including when the comments were about or directed toward me. I am very sorry if some of you feel offended for whatever reason. The internet is a very interesting place. I know there are a lot of smart cookies here. Your board is great. I hope I have added value in some meaningful way. I am a huge supporter of evidence and science based reports. Clearly I don't simply "wing it". I don't think many people have long term success "winging it". I love science! I can't agree that science is without flaws or that any one person mentioned in previous posts has enough answers for everyone or can relate to everyone. I think the original post is valid. I may have underestimated how passionate people can get even when intentions are good. I can also say that it is more clear than ever where a lot of confusion comes from. Goodness. But then again these are just one persons opinion... haha! I hope everyone is having a wonderful day! 7 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »A lot of feedback.
Personally... I can't speak for anyone but myself and I don't have a "we" to address you all. I was doing my best to address everything including when the comments were about or directed toward me. I am very sorry if some of you feel offended for whatever reason. The internet is a very interesting place. I know there are a lot of smart cookies here. Your board is great. I hope I have added value in some meaningful way. I am a huge supporter of evidence and science based reports. Clearly I don't simply "wing it". I don't think many people have long term success "winging it". I love science! I can't agree that science is without flaws or that any one person mentioned in previous posts has enough answers for everyone or can relate to everyone. I think the original post is valid. I may have underestimated how passionate people can get even when intentions are good. I can also say that it is more clear than ever where a lot of confusion comes from. Goodness. But then again these are just one persons opinion... haha! I hope everyone is having a wonderful day!
I don't think anyone here is arguing that science is without flaws. It's a human enterprise and we (collectively) make mistakes, have blind spots, are sometimes self-serving, etc. All human characteristics are sometimes reflected in science and all other human endeavors.
The question isn't "Are there flaws in science?" but "Are the flaws in science significant enough that we should abandon the scientific method as a way to help us understand the world?"12 -
janejellyroll wrote: »"Are the flaws in science significant enough that we should abandon the scientific method as a way to help us understand the world?"
Better not. Science and the research behind it (primarily medical) has saved my bacon, my wife's and is currently keeping a much loved niece alive.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »A lot of feedback.
Personally... I can't speak for anyone but myself and I don't have a "we" to address you all. I was doing my best to address everything including when the comments were about or directed toward me. I am very sorry if some of you feel offended for whatever reason. The internet is a very interesting place. I know there are a lot of smart cookies here. Your board is great. I hope I have added value in some meaningful way. I am a huge supporter of evidence and science based reports. Clearly I don't simply "wing it". I don't think many people have long term success "winging it". I love science! I can't agree that science is without flaws or that any one person mentioned in previous posts has enough answers for everyone or can relate to everyone. I think the original post is valid. I may have underestimated how passionate people can get even when intentions are good. I can also say that it is more clear than ever where a lot of confusion comes from. Goodness. But then again these are just one persons opinion... haha! I hope everyone is having a wonderful day!
I don't think anyone here is arguing that science is without flaws. It's a human enterprise and we (collectively) make mistakes, have blind spots, are sometimes self-serving, etc. All of human characteristics are sometimes reflected in science and all other human endeavors.
The question isn't "Are there flaws in science?" but "Are the flaws in science significant enough that we should abandon the scientific method as a way to help us understand the world?"
And furthermore, "Are the flaws in science more significant than the flaws in any individual's analyzing and reporting of their n=1 anecdotes?"10 -
janejellyroll wrote: »"Are the flaws in science significant enough that we should abandon the scientific method as a way to help us understand the world?"
Better not. Science and the research behind it (primarily medical) has saved my bacon, my wife's and is currently keeping a much loved niece alive.
Yes, I'm also in the "It's not perfect, but we're better off for having science" camp.janejellyroll wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »A lot of feedback.
Personally... I can't speak for anyone but myself and I don't have a "we" to address you all. I was doing my best to address everything including when the comments were about or directed toward me. I am very sorry if some of you feel offended for whatever reason. The internet is a very interesting place. I know there are a lot of smart cookies here. Your board is great. I hope I have added value in some meaningful way. I am a huge supporter of evidence and science based reports. Clearly I don't simply "wing it". I don't think many people have long term success "winging it". I love science! I can't agree that science is without flaws or that any one person mentioned in previous posts has enough answers for everyone or can relate to everyone. I think the original post is valid. I may have underestimated how passionate people can get even when intentions are good. I can also say that it is more clear than ever where a lot of confusion comes from. Goodness. But then again these are just one persons opinion... haha! I hope everyone is having a wonderful day!
I don't think anyone here is arguing that science is without flaws. It's a human enterprise and we (collectively) make mistakes, have blind spots, are sometimes self-serving, etc. All of human characteristics are sometimes reflected in science and all other human endeavors.
The question isn't "Are there flaws in science?" but "Are the flaws in science significant enough that we should abandon the scientific method as a way to help us understand the world?"
And furthermore, "Are the flaws in science more significant than the flaws in any individual's analyzing and reporting of their n=1 anecdotes?"
Exactly. I'm open to critiquing science and I think it's a process that is important and needs to happen. I still think that even with flaws, it's better than approaching the physical world as a collection of isolated individual realities (which is too often what it comes down to in conversations like this).7
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