Plant based protein VS meat based protein

Options
13»

Replies

  • steveko89
    steveko89 Posts: 2,217 Member
    Options
    psuLemon wrote: »
    Your comparison point would be within the elite athlete populous (total elite athletes vs those who are plant based). And even then, you have to understand how long those individuals have been plant based. What you will find in many circles, is often, those elite individuals got there using another diet.

    There's also the risk of blurring the distinction between elite skill and elite athletic performance. Much is made of the lifestyles and longevity of players like Tom Brady and Drew Brees, though the aspects of their performances that may or may not be enhanced by their eating regimen are only a portion of what makes them elite at their given disciplines. Talent, skill, coaching, team circumstances all play a role.
  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 9,994 Member
    Options
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I brought this up to my husband and I told him the days we eat veggie meals I feel like I have more energy I work out harder I literally exceed my goals. And I can tell the difference when we eat chicken fish pro beef etc.
    He laughed and said at work today he actually watched a Netflix documentary called “Game Changers” and it talked about this same thing in elite athletes NFL, strongest man, UFC, and also high demand physical jobs such as firefighting.

    I think when I get the time maybe this weekend I will try and watch it. I guess they talk scientifically about the plant and meat outcome long term and short term in a body and blood circulation. With test done on the athletes.

    I’m interested to see where I stand. Because I LOVE meat I am born and raised In Colorado! We love beef and any meat!!
    But he said in the documentary that it mentioned even one serving of eggs chicken or lean protein clouded the fat in the blood.
    Idk I am very interested to watch this and learn a little more

    He also said there was a “strongest man” that is vegetarian on there and he said he wanted to be strong as an ox, and someone laughed and said while u eat ur salad? And he replied well what do ox eat?
    Hmmm food for thought
    I am going to go look deeper into this!!!
    Thanks for all the great views and education!!!!

    Think critically about any claim suggesting athletes perform better on fully plant-based diets.

    but it's so much easier just to believe whatever the most recent documentary I watched told me

    Ironically, its the same argument from some keto'ers. There is one person who has excelled and that leads people to believe its optimal. But if you look at 100 randomized elite athletes, its probably 1-2% vs the rest who eat a varied diet to include meat.


    So, two to four times as common for an elite athlete to have a fully plant-based diet than it is for someone in the general population to have a fully plant-based diet (if we're talking about the U.S.)?


    ETA: I don't know if your 1-2% number is correct. I suspect you don't either, from your phrasing ("it's probably 1-2% ...").

    But no matter what the correct number is, it tells us absolutely nothing about whether a vegan diet correlates with elite athleticism unless we compare it to the rate of veganism in the general population.

    Your comparison point would be within the elite athlete populous (total elite athletes vs those who are plant based). And even then, you have to understand how long those individuals have been plant based. What you will find in many circles, is often, those elite individuals got there using another diet.

    Diet's have been researched for decades as a means to improve athletic performance. If plant based had even the slightest advantage, it would be no secret by now.

    No, really, it wouldn't. If I told you that only 0.5% of Americans who died last year were vegans, would it mean that veganism was some kind of panacea against all forms of death? No, it wouldn't. You would have to compare the rate of veganism among the dying to the overall rate of veganism, just as you have to compare the rate of veganism among elite athletes to the overall rate of veganism to determine if there's a correlation or not.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,398 MFP Moderator
    Options
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I brought this up to my husband and I told him the days we eat veggie meals I feel like I have more energy I work out harder I literally exceed my goals. And I can tell the difference when we eat chicken fish pro beef etc.
    He laughed and said at work today he actually watched a Netflix documentary called “Game Changers” and it talked about this same thing in elite athletes NFL, strongest man, UFC, and also high demand physical jobs such as firefighting.

    I think when I get the time maybe this weekend I will try and watch it. I guess they talk scientifically about the plant and meat outcome long term and short term in a body and blood circulation. With test done on the athletes.

    I’m interested to see where I stand. Because I LOVE meat I am born and raised In Colorado! We love beef and any meat!!
    But he said in the documentary that it mentioned even one serving of eggs chicken or lean protein clouded the fat in the blood.
    Idk I am very interested to watch this and learn a little more

    He also said there was a “strongest man” that is vegetarian on there and he said he wanted to be strong as an ox, and someone laughed and said while u eat ur salad? And he replied well what do ox eat?
    Hmmm food for thought
    I am going to go look deeper into this!!!
    Thanks for all the great views and education!!!!

    Think critically about any claim suggesting athletes perform better on fully plant-based diets.

    but it's so much easier just to believe whatever the most recent documentary I watched told me

    Ironically, its the same argument from some keto'ers. There is one person who has excelled and that leads people to believe its optimal. But if you look at 100 randomized elite athletes, its probably 1-2% vs the rest who eat a varied diet to include meat.


    So, two to four times as common for an elite athlete to have a fully plant-based diet than it is for someone in the general population to have a fully plant-based diet (if we're talking about the U.S.)?


    ETA: I don't know if your 1-2% number is correct. I suspect you don't either, from your phrasing ("it's probably 1-2% ...").

    But no matter what the correct number is, it tells us absolutely nothing about whether a vegan diet correlates with elite athleticism unless we compare it to the rate of veganism in the general population.

    Your comparison point would be within the elite athlete populous (total elite athletes vs those who are plant based). And even then, you have to understand how long those individuals have been plant based. What you will find in many circles, is often, those elite individuals got there using another diet.

    Diet's have been researched for decades as a means to improve athletic performance. If plant based had even the slightest advantage, it would be no secret by now.

    No, really, it wouldn't. If I told you that only 0.5% of Americans who died last year were vegans, would it mean that veganism was some kind of panacea against all forms of death? No, it wouldn't. You would have to compare the rate of veganism among the dying to the overall rate of veganism, just as you have to compare the rate of veganism among elite athletes to the overall rate of veganism to determine if there's a correlation or not.

    How do you test a hypothesis for training efficacy to include the general populous who doesn't train? If you looking at training factors like muscle protein synthesis rates, muscle gains, recovery etc.. you need to limit it to those who actually train.

    If you at looking at all cause mortality, the best you are going to get is observation data because every diet that induces weight loss improves that statistic.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,398 MFP Moderator
    Options
    steveko89 wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    Your comparison point would be within the elite athlete populous (total elite athletes vs those who are plant based). And even then, you have to understand how long those individuals have been plant based. What you will find in many circles, is often, those elite individuals got there using another diet.

    There's also the risk of blurring the distinction between elite skill and elite athletic performance. Much is made of the lifestyles and longevity of players like Tom Brady and Drew Brees, though the aspects of their performances that may or may not be enhanced by their eating regimen are only a portion of what makes them elite at their given disciplines. Talent, skill, coaching, team circumstances all play a role.

    yea, unfortunately, there are a ton of confounding variables that can impact the results. You also have to look at these people being genetic elites.
  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 9,994 Member
    Options
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I brought this up to my husband and I told him the days we eat veggie meals I feel like I have more energy I work out harder I literally exceed my goals. And I can tell the difference when we eat chicken fish pro beef etc.
    He laughed and said at work today he actually watched a Netflix documentary called “Game Changers” and it talked about this same thing in elite athletes NFL, strongest man, UFC, and also high demand physical jobs such as firefighting.

    I think when I get the time maybe this weekend I will try and watch it. I guess they talk scientifically about the plant and meat outcome long term and short term in a body and blood circulation. With test done on the athletes.

    I’m interested to see where I stand. Because I LOVE meat I am born and raised In Colorado! We love beef and any meat!!
    But he said in the documentary that it mentioned even one serving of eggs chicken or lean protein clouded the fat in the blood.
    Idk I am very interested to watch this and learn a little more

    He also said there was a “strongest man” that is vegetarian on there and he said he wanted to be strong as an ox, and someone laughed and said while u eat ur salad? And he replied well what do ox eat?
    Hmmm food for thought
    I am going to go look deeper into this!!!
    Thanks for all the great views and education!!!!

    Think critically about any claim suggesting athletes perform better on fully plant-based diets.

    but it's so much easier just to believe whatever the most recent documentary I watched told me

    Ironically, its the same argument from some keto'ers. There is one person who has excelled and that leads people to believe its optimal. But if you look at 100 randomized elite athletes, its probably 1-2% vs the rest who eat a varied diet to include meat.


    So, two to four times as common for an elite athlete to have a fully plant-based diet than it is for someone in the general population to have a fully plant-based diet (if we're talking about the U.S.)?


    ETA: I don't know if your 1-2% number is correct. I suspect you don't either, from your phrasing ("it's probably 1-2% ...").

    But no matter what the correct number is, it tells us absolutely nothing about whether a vegan diet correlates with elite athleticism unless we compare it to the rate of veganism in the general population.

    Your comparison point would be within the elite athlete populous (total elite athletes vs those who are plant based). And even then, you have to understand how long those individuals have been plant based. What you will find in many circles, is often, those elite individuals got there using another diet.

    Diet's have been researched for decades as a means to improve athletic performance. If plant based had even the slightest advantage, it would be no secret by now.

    No, really, it wouldn't. If I told you that only 0.5% of Americans who died last year were vegans, would it mean that veganism was some kind of panacea against all forms of death? No, it wouldn't. You would have to compare the rate of veganism among the dying to the overall rate of veganism, just as you have to compare the rate of veganism among elite athletes to the overall rate of veganism to determine if there's a correlation or not.

    How do you test a hypothesis for training efficacy to include the general populous who doesn't train? If you looking at training factors like muscle protein synthesis rates, muscle gains, recovery etc.. you need to limit it to those who actually train.

    If you at looking at all cause mortality, the best you are going to get is observation data because every diet that induces weight loss improves that statistic.

    Your original statement that I first responded to said nothing about conducting actual physical studies of subjects to ascertain training efficacy. It asserted that only 1 to 2% of elite athletes have fully plant-based diets, and that this fact somehow proved that plant-based diets are not good choices for someone trying to achieve elite athletic status. That's not how statistics works.

    You can't take an isolated fact about the prevalence of dietary choice X in a group and prove anything about how that characteristic correlates to the likelihood of being in that group. You could try to argue that all the people in the group are really well-informed about what works for them and what doesn't, and thus a low prevalence of dietary choice X suggests that they've concluded, based on their great wisdom (and again, the value of lifters as an authority to appeal to doesn't strike me as particularly high, even if the appeal to authority were not both a rhetorical and scientific fallacy) that adopting characteristic X won't help them achieve their goals. But when dietary choice X turns out to be something that also has a really low prevalence in the general population due to the social and nutritional challenges of following it and the generally low level of appeal of that nutritional choice, the fact that elite athletes (according to your percentage, which, again, I have no idea whether it's true) are choosing it as often or even two to four times more often (in the U.S.) than people who have not achieved elite athlete status* is an argument in favor of veganism among elite athletes, if we accept your appeal to authority, or evidence of a correlation, which certainly undercuts the idea that veganism is a poor choice for elite athletes.




    * I think it's fair to take the rate in the general population as a proxy for the rate of non-elite athletes, since, by any reasonable definition, the number of elite athletes in the general population should be too small to significantly skew the rate of veganism in the general population, and, in any case, if the elite athlete veganism rate were swaying the general population rate significantly higher than the specifically non-elite athlete rate, it would only make my point stronger, because it would mean that veganism among non-elite athletes was even lower.
  • withinthemargin
    withinthemargin Posts: 14 Member
    Options
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I brought this up to my husband and I told him the days we eat veggie meals I feel like I have more energy I work out harder I literally exceed my goals. And I can tell the difference when we eat chicken fish pro beef etc.
    He laughed and said at work today he actually watched a Netflix documentary called “Game Changers” and it talked about this same thing in elite athletes NFL, strongest man, UFC, and also high demand physical jobs such as firefighting.

    I think when I get the time maybe this weekend I will try and watch it. I guess they talk scientifically about the plant and meat outcome long term and short term in a body and blood circulation. With test done on the athletes.

    I’m interested to see where I stand. Because I LOVE meat I am born and raised In Colorado! We love beef and any meat!!
    But he said in the documentary that it mentioned even one serving of eggs chicken or lean protein clouded the fat in the blood.
    Idk I am very interested to watch this and learn a little more

    He also said there was a “strongest man” that is vegetarian on there and he said he wanted to be strong as an ox, and someone laughed and said while u eat ur salad? And he replied well what do ox eat?
    Hmmm food for thought
    I am going to go look deeper into this!!!
    Thanks for all the great views and education!!!!

    Think critically about any claim suggesting athletes perform better on fully plant-based diets. High level athletes have professional trainers (including dietitians) who keep up with all the sound scientific research, and will do nearly anything to squeeze out a 0.05% advantage. If a fully plant-based diet were actually proven to be more effective, every high level athlete would be fully plant-based . . . or we have to assume most of them are kinda stupid, or not paying attention.

    Can athletes perform well on a fully plant based diet? I'm sure they can, because some do. Is it persuasively, objectively proven to be a better diet on which to perform? Doesn't seem likely, outside of advocacy propaganda "documentaries".

    And I say that as a long term (45+ year) vegetarian who has (in the past) trained and competed athletically.

    Athletes are just people. There are a variety of things that professional athletes can do that would make them better athletes, but that they don't do. As one example, I doubt there are any dieticians which would say that alcohol is beneficial, and I would think most would say that alcohol harms their bodies and performance. Yet, professional athletes still drink alcohol. They still smoke weed. They still do other drugs.

    All that said, I agree that it has not been proven to a scientifically acceptable standard that vegan diets result in better performance among professional athletes.

    However, for people on this forum, I don't really think this focus on scientific standards is particularly relevant. People here aren't trying to become professional athletes. If you're wondering whether you can be strong and have great endurance on a vegan diet, the answer would appear to be yes.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    Options
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I brought this up to my husband and I told him the days we eat veggie meals I feel like I have more energy I work out harder I literally exceed my goals. And I can tell the difference when we eat chicken fish pro beef etc.
    He laughed and said at work today he actually watched a Netflix documentary called “Game Changers” and it talked about this same thing in elite athletes NFL, strongest man, UFC, and also high demand physical jobs such as firefighting.

    I think when I get the time maybe this weekend I will try and watch it. I guess they talk scientifically about the plant and meat outcome long term and short term in a body and blood circulation. With test done on the athletes.

    I’m interested to see where I stand. Because I LOVE meat I am born and raised In Colorado! We love beef and any meat!!
    But he said in the documentary that it mentioned even one serving of eggs chicken or lean protein clouded the fat in the blood.
    Idk I am very interested to watch this and learn a little more

    He also said there was a “strongest man” that is vegetarian on there and he said he wanted to be strong as an ox, and someone laughed and said while u eat ur salad? And he replied well what do ox eat?
    Hmmm food for thought
    I am going to go look deeper into this!!!
    Thanks for all the great views and education!!!!

    Think critically about any claim suggesting athletes perform better on fully plant-based diets. High level athletes have professional trainers (including dietitians) who keep up with all the sound scientific research, and will do nearly anything to squeeze out a 0.05% advantage. If a fully plant-based diet were actually proven to be more effective, every high level athlete would be fully plant-based . . . or we have to assume most of them are kinda stupid, or not paying attention.

    Can athletes perform well on a fully plant based diet? I'm sure they can, because some do. Is it persuasively, objectively proven to be a better diet on which to perform? Doesn't seem likely, outside of advocacy propaganda "documentaries".

    And I say that as a long term (45+ year) vegetarian who has (in the past) trained and competed athletically.

    Athletes are just people. There are a variety of things that professional athletes can do that would make them better athletes, but that they don't do. As one example, I doubt there are any dieticians which would say that alcohol is beneficial, and I would think most would say that alcohol harms their bodies and performance. Yet, professional athletes still drink alcohol. They still smoke weed. They still do other drugs.

    All that said, I agree that it has not been proven to a scientifically acceptable standard that vegan diets result in better performance among professional athletes.

    However, for people on this forum, I don't really think this focus on scientific standards is particularly relevant. People here aren't trying to become professional athletes. If you're wondering whether you can be strong and have great endurance on a vegan diet, the answer would appear to be yes.

    Of course, but the argument presented seems to be the reverse: not that one can thrive on a vegan diet, but that not having a vegan diet will be a comparative impairment; that one will necessarily be healthier, better at athletics, etc., if one eats a vegan diet. The argument that psulemon is making is that if there were a clear advantage in general, that vegan diets would have been more widely adopted (as with some other things that offer a clear advantage) by athletes seeking a competitive advantage. (For the record, I don't think we have good numbers as to how many people and how many athletes are vegans, especially when controlled for like groups.)
  • Mouse_Potato
    Mouse_Potato Posts: 1,495 Member
    Options
    Of course there are vegans who had strokes or heart attacks. When did I say they don’t exist??? I just don’t know anyone personally.

    I personally know 4 overweight vegans, but it would be foolish to draw any conclusions from that small sample.
  • fuzzylop_
    fuzzylop_ Posts: 100 Member
    Options
    Last year, mass had a good multi-part series on athletic performance on a vegan or vegetarian diet, which I thought was a reasonably balanced take on the subject. You can get all the aminos on a vegan diet (and indeed, 70/30 pea rice blends are about the same as whey). The difficult part comes in cutting (if you are aiming for stage), but that applies to pretty much just bodybuilders (other weight restricted athletes don't tend to need to cut their calories as hard and so it's not likely to be problematic).

    There's no strong evidence of vegan diets being better or worse in terms of performance or health that i've seen.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 32,504 Member
    Options
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I brought this up to my husband and I told him the days we eat veggie meals I feel like I have more energy I work out harder I literally exceed my goals. And I can tell the difference when we eat chicken fish pro beef etc.
    He laughed and said at work today he actually watched a Netflix documentary called “Game Changers” and it talked about this same thing in elite athletes NFL, strongest man, UFC, and also high demand physical jobs such as firefighting.

    I think when I get the time maybe this weekend I will try and watch it. I guess they talk scientifically about the plant and meat outcome long term and short term in a body and blood circulation. With test done on the athletes.

    I’m interested to see where I stand. Because I LOVE meat I am born and raised In Colorado! We love beef and any meat!!
    But he said in the documentary that it mentioned even one serving of eggs chicken or lean protein clouded the fat in the blood.
    Idk I am very interested to watch this and learn a little more

    He also said there was a “strongest man” that is vegetarian on there and he said he wanted to be strong as an ox, and someone laughed and said while u eat ur salad? And he replied well what do ox eat?
    Hmmm food for thought
    I am going to go look deeper into this!!!
    Thanks for all the great views and education!!!!

    Think critically about any claim suggesting athletes perform better on fully plant-based diets. High level athletes have professional trainers (including dietitians) who keep up with all the sound scientific research, and will do nearly anything to squeeze out a 0.05% advantage. If a fully plant-based diet were actually proven to be more effective, every high level athlete would be fully plant-based . . . or we have to assume most of them are kinda stupid, or not paying attention.

    Can athletes perform well on a fully plant based diet? I'm sure they can, because some do. Is it persuasively, objectively proven to be a better diet on which to perform? Doesn't seem likely, outside of advocacy propaganda "documentaries".

    And I say that as a long term (45+ year) vegetarian who has (in the past) trained and competed athletically.

    Athletes are just people. There are a variety of things that professional athletes can do that would make them better athletes, but that they don't do. As one example, I doubt there are any dieticians which would say that alcohol is beneficial, and I would think most would say that alcohol harms their bodies and performance. Yet, professional athletes still drink alcohol. They still smoke weed. They still do other drugs.

    All that said, I agree that it has not been proven to a scientifically acceptable standard that vegan diets result in better performance among professional athletes.

    However, for people on this forum, I don't really think this focus on scientific standards is particularly relevant. People here aren't trying to become professional athletes. If you're wondering whether you can be strong and have great endurance on a vegan diet, the answer would appear to be yes.

    To the bolded: We differ, then. I think scientific findings are pretty much always a good input to my decision making, on most any subject. ;) That doesn't mean I try to fully optimize my nutrition for athletic performance (or any other goal), but the science is still a good input to rational behavior, along with issues of personal preference and priorities, of course. I'd suggest anyone would be well-served by considering nutritional science, athlete or not, even if they don't choose to follow it slavishly.

    What's the alternative input: IG-ers? Fitness bloggers? Celebrity "doctors"? The clerk at GNC? The unbalanced documentaries that are being critiqued in this thread?

    And you oddly seem to be suggesting that I argued that veganism is incompatible with excellent athletic performance, when I actually said exactly the opposite. Of course a person can be vegan/fully plant-based and perform athletically. Some people do it. That's pretty definitive proof that it's possible. It's not any kind of proof that it's better.

    I don't know, but I think your experience with athletes may differ from mine, as well. The elite athletes I know or have known personally (a tiny number) are in completely nonprofitable sports, not standard "professional" sports. Most of them are doing the overwhelming majority of things that might give them any edge, the overwhelming majority of the time, guided by equally elite trainers (national team trainers). I won't say they don't drink or use drugs ever at all, but it is very rare behavior in that context. It may help that folks like that don't attract an entourage that tempts them into party behavior.