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Ethical food consumption
Replies
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@AnnPT77
I love when people are not oversimplifying things and instead think in-depth...but at the same time, I feel like there is a risk of ending in a foggy relativism where everything is the same. It's not.
I don't think we know and can fix all the word's problems. But, we can do certain things.
(snip comments on another post, for reply length)
Don't get me wrong: I'm not about throwing up my hands and saying "why bother?".
I really don't like to talk about the details of my personal actions in this kind of way, because it can create the impression that I think others should do what I do, when what I really think is that people should do what they can, starting with the low hanging fruit, i.e., things that are easiest for them. In this context, I don't want to get in a dispute about "my way" vs. "someone else's way": It's profitless.
I'd add that I'm unable to see "food ethics" separate from all those other dimensions (producer labor, working conditions, environmental impacts, etc.). I'm also deeply uncomfortable with any implication of lauding my own ethics, which are always and inevitably deeply flawed, and riddled with well-meaning ignorance. (I try to learn more and improve that, but at some level it's hopeless: Even the scholars of each individual topic differ about best practices. It would be arrogant to think I can do better.)
In this context, just to show a level of earnestness (i.e., that I'm not giving up) in the discussion:
* I've been vegetarian for 45+ years (1974) and a material reason for the decision back then was that there were severe famines across the globe, with protein shortage a crucial part of that, and I became aware that meat as then raised generally required more plant protein input than the meat protein output.
* I do - often but not always - buy from local farmers, and at stores that stock locally-produced foods (not just produce).
* I often - not always - buy organic, not for any health or nutrition magic, but because the smaller set of agricultural chemicals used in that setting - a subset of the chemicals that are available to non-organic producers - may limit risks to workers, water table, nearby wildlife and vegetation, etc. I will also consider paying more, where relevant, for certified "fair trade" goods, and avoid products with questionable provenance (like the palm oil issue).
* I consider packaging issues when I select products. I reuse packaging when practical (including using boxboard/corrugate in crafts and home projects, glass/plastic for food storage or other purposes, etc., until they becomone unusable). Along with the no-longer-usable reused stuff, I recycle other packaging, being as conscientious as I can about keeping the recycling stream "clean" per the rules, as much as feasible (without being stupid about things like driving styrofoam so far that my gas usage literally outweighs the benefit - happily, there's a plastic plant's styro recycling on a frequent bike/car route I use for other reasons, so no material extra gas). Similarly, since there's no curbside recycling here, I choose a site for other materials that's on my way to other places.
* I donate, within reasonable limits of my modest financial ability and time, to organizations that I think do good work in mitigating my harms, or extend the benefits to nearby people who couldn't otherwise afford them.
That's just a few things that are closer to your main topic of food. To me, as you've read, it's all inextricably interwoven with my whole life practices, things like clothing choices, attention to resource usage in other areas when most workable for me (thermostat temps, minimizing air travel, buying used items in some categories, keeping/using home goods like linens past their pretty stage if still functional, etc., etc., etc.)
None of this is absolutist at all, and I don't feel guilt when I "underperform": Like I said, I don't think our global impact is something we can really mitigate; we're lucky to be born where we are with all our advantages, but that comes with the negative impacts built in. I just try to be conscious and respectful of the things that go into my very comfortable lifestyle, and when I can, I try to mitigate effects on (and feel gratitude and debt to) those who are disadvantaged by my unearned/undeserved advantages that come largely from accident of birth place/time.
So: Foggy relativism? I dunno. Everything is the same? No. Everyone should do all the same things? Also no. Doing some things is good; start with the personally easy ones: That's what I think.
Edited: Typos.6 -
I think this is a great topic to be thinking about, and more people should definitely examine the ethics of their consumption. Personally, I'm vegan because I have the ability to cook my meals myself, and I live in the Midwest of the US with plenty of fresh produce (yet people in my small town can be almost aggressively anit-vegan, which is weird to me - we have so many awesome local farms!).
I also think there needs to be more of an onus on companies to provide CLEARLY LABELLED ethical, environmentally responsible options. Whether that's through regulatory bodies or (some people will hate this) government policies, corporations need to be rewarded for being ethical and punished (financially) when they're not. Things like using reusable/recyclable/recycled packaging, treating workers with respect, and having clear sourcing pathways, should be subsidized as opposed to factory farming. One of the greatest tricks corporations ever played on us was making consumers responsible for recycling/throwing away their products and packaging when they're the ones creating it in the first place.
On an individual level, I think "ethical" consumption is different for everyone because we all have different moral frameworks. Personally, I don't think it's moral to knowingly cause unnecessary harm, so being vegan is a natural extension of that for me. I also eat food from local farms when possible, because I think it's moral to leave a planet/ecosystems available for future use, and transit miles are also an issue (RIP my beloved mangos).
I'm all for reductionism/reducetarians (someone needs to make a better weird for this
), where people reduce their meat and animal product consumption as much as possible and sustainable in their lives. A lot of people doing something is going to have more of an impact than a few people doing everything. I took a train home for the holidays because it's more environmentally friendly; however, I also flew intensionally because I have family across the world. No one's going to be perfect, but we can all do some research and do our best! 2 -
There's an element here that only the first world could discuss. A self imposed problem of affluence and abundance.
It's of critical importance that one practice what they preach, so I applaud your effort. Firstly, it imparts experience and trust, but more importantly it forces one to embrace the ramifications of their decisions. I'm not very interested in marriage advice from a divorced counselor - I'm very interested in speaking with a couple celebrating their 25th anniversary.
I'm fascinated with the concept of homesteading and recently moved back to a rural community so that my kids can experience a connected life. We have a stocked pond and more animals/crops will be phasing in as we move along.
The world is incredibly complex - far more complex than a human mind can comprehend. To assume that we have any solution other than fixing our own mess is absurd to the point I have to question mental stability. It reeks of signaling rather than pursuing virtue.
Humans tend to have fewer children when their standards of living raise. The world has dramatically improved at an unprecedented rate over the past 50 years. The starvation rate has decreased by 80%, the extreme poverty rate has decreased from 55% to <10% during this time. There's plenty of food to provide the world's population, even the logistics has been resolved.
There are ~ 7 billion people spinning around this rock - there are ~15.77 billion acres of habitable land.
By this same point there's an inherent technical growth curve nations tend to go through in their natural evolution. One from subsistence to consumption to conservation and reduction. So if your goal is truly to provide a positive impact, then the most positive gain is getting the third world through their consumption phase as fast as possible.
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I really, really, hate it when people push the answer is more regulation and government. You are basically using the government to enforce what you feel is morally correct. And blaming companies for packaging...good one. It wouldn't be possible to deliver the amount of food to market as we did now without packaging and over the years more an more companies are using recyclable materials for packaging.VictoriaTuel wrote: »
I also think there needs to be more of an onus on companies to provide CLEARLY LABELLED ethical, environmentally responsible options. Whether that's through regulatory bodies or (some people will hate this) government policies, corporations need to be rewarded for being ethical and punished (financially) when they're not. Things like using reusable/recyclable/recycled packaging, treating workers with respect, and having clear sourcing pathways, should be subsidized as opposed to factory farming. One of the greatest tricks corporations ever played on us was making consumers responsible for recycling/throwing away their products and packaging when they're the ones creating it in the first place.
I'm certainly all for reducing waste and for fair treatment of animals as well but obviously there are different scales among people for both of those. I too hate the wasteful nature of consumerism and do what I can to not waste anything or pollute. I do hunt and fish, as it's the most healthy and environmentally safe method of obtaining meat and I do enjoy the sport aspects as well. However, I don't ever kill anything and not eat it. I know how tan hides and older methods of making clothes.On an individual level, I think "ethical" consumption is different for everyone because we all have different moral frameworks. Personally, I don't think it's moral to knowingly cause unnecessary harm, so being vegan is a natural extension of that for me. I also eat food from local farms when possible, because I think it's moral to leave a planet/ecosystems available for future use, and transit miles are also an issue (RIP my beloved mangos).
I'm all for reductionism/reducetarians (someone needs to make a better weird for this), where people reduce their meat and animal product consumption as much as possible and sustainable in their lives. A lot of people doing something is going to have more of an impact than a few people doing everything. I took a train home for the holidays because it's more environmentally friendly; however, I also flew intensionally because I have family across the world. No one's going to be perfect, but we can all do some research and do our best!
I think if my family would be on board with it I would give homesteading a go and have my own livestock and garden to live off of out away from other people.
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Haha I knew someone wouldn't like that commentliftingbro wrote: »
I really, really, hate it when people push the answer is more regulation and government. You are basically using the government to enforce what you feel is morally correct. And blaming companies for packaging...good one. It wouldn't be possible to deliver the amount of food to market as we did now without packaging and over the years more an more companies are using recyclable materials for packaging.VictoriaTuel wrote: »
I also think there needs to be more of an onus on companies to provide CLEARLY LABELLED ethical, environmentally responsible options. Whether that's through regulatory bodies or (some people will hate this) government policies, corporations need to be rewarded for being ethical and punished (financially) when they're not. Things like using reusable/recyclable/recycled packaging, treating workers with respect, and having clear sourcing pathways, should be subsidized as opposed to factory farming. One of the greatest tricks corporations ever played on us was making consumers responsible for recycling/throwing away their products and packaging when they're the ones creating it in the first place. Of course some packaging is necessary in our food supply chain, I'm in no way suggesting everything needs to be zero waste or such. I don't think this is all simply morals either. People deserve to know what they're purchasing and where it came from, and many labels and packaging nowadays is deliberately (and accidentally) confusing on that front. It's awesome that companies are using more recyclable materials and I've started to see labels on things saying "recycle paper box, throw away inner liner," which is great! I just think we need to work towards making the most sustainable options the easiest to find and follow instead of the other way around. Having a required, intuitive, codified marking system for all allowed packaging products with a publicity campaign would make it a lot easier for people who work multiple jobs and don't have the time to research if this random bottle with what they think is a 3 on the bottom is recyclable in the town they just moved to. I'm sure people who work in these industries and have more experience than me would have even better ideas for policies! That would also help with OP's original concern of doing the best we can. Why don't we facilitate everyone doing better for their health, the environment, whatever's important to them than they are now instead of making it harder?
I think we agree here? If what you're doing fits into your moral framework, I'm not going to stop you from doing you. Everyone's priorities are also different, and there's only so many hours in a day. You seem to be doing the things you can and have worked to develop knowledge and skills to more fully utilitize what you have and that's exactly what most people on this thread are advocating!I'm certainly all for reducing waste and for fair treatment of animals as well but obviously there are different scales among people for both of those. I too hate the wasteful nature of consumerism and do what I can to not waste anything or pollute. I do hunt and fish, as it's the most healthy and environmentally safe method of obtaining meat and I do enjoy the sport aspects as well. However, I don't ever kill anything and not eat it. I know how tan hides and older methods of making clothes.
I think if my family would be on board with it I would give homesteading a go and have my own livestock and garden to live off of out away from other people.
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liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.5 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.3 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
If that were the case the industrial farms would use more goats and sheep. It would be much more profit for them if it really worked that way. industrial farms are all about profit so I think it's pretty illogical to think that goats an sheep could produce the same as cattle.2 -
I think different people have different ethical priorities. If you live within your own set of ethics that is a good thing. Often different ethical priorities conflict with one another.
Minimal package vs accessible foods
Local vs organic
Vegitable based vs local in winter
Meat vs processed vegan proteins2 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.4 -
liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
i read that article and i read others. it depends on the experience. some people like goats over cows, and vice versa. as far as homesteading, not industrial, goats are less dangerous. cows can do more damage easily. same for pigs. and then we have to consider milk/meat animals.
if we are talking about ethical consumption, industrial isn't necessarily the best option. goats and sheep lend themselves to the less industrial meat economy.4 -
I think different people have different ethical priorities. If you live within your own set of ethics that is a good thing. Often different ethical priorities conflict with one another.
Minimal package vs accessible foods
Local vs organic
Vegitable based vs local in winter
Meat vs processed vegan proteins
I'm familiar with the ethical objections to meat, but what is the ethical objection to processing?5 -
liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
i read that article and i read others. it depends on the experience. some people like goats over cows, and vice versa. as far as homesteading, not industrial, goats are less dangerous. cows can do more damage easily. same for pigs. and then we have to consider milk/meat animals.
if we are talking about ethical consumption, industrial isn't necessarily the best option. goats and sheep lend themselves to the less industrial meat economy.
I agree for homesteading goats/sheep are much better. I think that's clear just from the size of the animal and relatively small amount of food and variable diet you can feed them. I was mainly saying they are not practical for supporting the current population of the planet.
3 -
liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
If that were the case the industrial farms would use more goats and sheep. It would be much more profit for them if it really worked that way. industrial farms are all about profit so I think it's pretty illogical to think that goats an sheep could produce the same as cattle.
When something is a fact, it doesn't change to not being a fact just because other factors (mainly historical accidents and consumer preferences) influence the decision-making of industrial farms.
ETA: profit does not depend solely on costs of production. It also depends on the price consumers are willing to pay for a given product and the size of the market.4 -
liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.5 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.
3 -
liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.
I'm not talking about morals. I was addressing your repeated argument that somehow cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world and that other protein sources are impractical.7 -
I also try to eat as ethically as possible. There are several organic, grass feed farms (I visited one, the pastures are very nice) that sell whole and half cows, pigs, and chickens. Eggs I get from a guy at church who has chicken. I think milk is vile, so I don't drink it. I am planting a garden this year- i have deer but my friends hubby is going to build me an enclosed garden, yay! I also bought a house with a double lot and am planting fruit trees. There won't be fruit for a few years, but it's coming.
But my main question is- what is the ethical argument against wool? Sheep grow wool not matter what, it doesn't harm them to sheer it off, so what the problem there?4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
Ground that isn't suitable for cattle isn't suitable for food crops.1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.
I'm not talking about morals. I was addressing your repeated argument that somehow cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world and that other protein sources are impractical.
It is. Unless you want to tell people they can't eat meat or have to eat less than the RDA. Even the RDA isn't suitable for active people though.
3 -
liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.
I'm not talking about morals. I was addressing your repeated argument that somehow cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world and that other protein sources are impractical.
It is. Unless you want to tell people they can't eat meat or have to eat less than the RDA. Even the RDA isn't suitable for active people though.
What source are you basing that on? Plenty of other sources of protein seem more efficient to produce than beef.9 -
liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.
really? you don't think there are fat vegans?8 -
My wife and I have been thinking about this since entering the New Year. We became regular consumers of fish several years ago and really got on board with only purchasing sustainable wild caught fish.
For the most part we buy our meat and poultry at Costco and they do tout a commitment to animal welfare...but we're thinking this year of purchasing most of our poultry and meat at a local place called Keller's Farms. We usually buy from there for special occasions like holidays and whatnot and it's usually pretty expensive...but we're usually buying something like prime rib or beef tenderloin. I need to price out more everyday meats, particularly poultry as poultry and fish are our primary proteins. There is some cost concern as we are a family of four with two growing boys that will soon be eating us out of house and home.6 -
liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.
I'm not talking about morals. I was addressing your repeated argument that somehow cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world and that other protein sources are impractical.
It is. Unless you want to tell people they can't eat meat or have to eat less than the RDA. Even the RDA isn't suitable for active people though.
What source are you basing that on? Plenty of other sources of protein seem more efficient to produce than beef.
I already posted an article above about it.
#1- Goats require more manual labor than cows.
#2- The nature of goats means they get more diseases.
#3- If it were true you could produce more meat and milk on a same sized farm as an average cattle based farm farmers would do that but they don't.
There's also very little demand for goat meat/milk in most industrialized countries. So basically, more labor= more cost. More disease=more cost. Sure, if every family raised goats it would work but in a society where very few people want to keep animals we are dependent on industrial farms and goats are not suitable for that type of farming.4 -
Regarding wool, if you watch videos of industrial sheering it is can be pretty violent. In these systems the animals can be seen as organic machines or parts of the machine vs a living creature with its own wants for a good life. Plus, sometimes the wool is just a byproduct of a larger process that kills the lamb (I.e., Uggs lamb skin and wool boots)
as this is about ethical consumption, i would think we could generally agree that mechanized milking, sheering, etc that is typical in industrial farming, is not ideal
...
even though my friends cousins' cows were milked by a milking machine and didn't mind it, the cows all had names and were grassfed for the most part. and were happy. it was a smaller herd. they said the cows once they got used to the machine seemed to like it better. done quicker, got to eat and move around more in their stalls.4 -
No, there are fat people that eat all sorts of ways. Just saying that vegan diets are not optimal for maintaining muscle mass.liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.
really? you don't think there are fat vegans?
4 -
liftingbro wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.
I'm not talking about morals. I was addressing your repeated argument that somehow cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world and that other protein sources are impractical.
It is. Unless you want to tell people they can't eat meat or have to eat less than the RDA. Even the RDA isn't suitable for active people though.
What source are you basing that on? Plenty of other sources of protein seem more efficient to produce than beef.
I already posted an article above about it.
#1- Goats require more manual labor than cows.
#2- The nature of goats means they get more diseases.
#3- If it were true you could produce more meat and milk on a same sized farm as an average cattle based farm farmers would do that but they don't.
There's also very little demand for goat meat/milk in most industrialized countries. So basically, more labor= more cost. More disease=more cost. Sure, if every family raised goats it would work but in a society where very few people want to keep animals we are dependent on industrial farms and goats are not suitable for that type of farming.
I'm not comparing only with lamb and goats.
If you look at this, beef is by far less efficient than everything but sheep and goats:
https://www.wri.org/blog/2016/04/sustainable-diets-what-you-need-know-12-charts
https://www.wri.org/resources/charts-graphs/animal-based-foods-are-more-resource-intensive-plant-based-foods
Even if you exclude plant-based sources (which I wouldn't, since one option is just to eat less animal based, more plant based), chicken and pork are more efficient sources. Of course, right now the industrial farming of them is pretty horrible, but as Lynn said we aren't talking about morals, we are talking about the claim that cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world.5 -
liftingbro wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.
I'm not talking about morals. I was addressing your repeated argument that somehow cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world and that other protein sources are impractical.
It is. Unless you want to tell people they can't eat meat or have to eat less than the RDA. Even the RDA isn't suitable for active people though.
What source are you basing that on? Plenty of other sources of protein seem more efficient to produce than beef.
I already posted an article above about it.
#1- Goats require more manual labor than cows.
#2- The nature of goats means they get more diseases.
#3- If it were true you could produce more meat and milk on a same sized farm as an average cattle based farm farmers would do that but they don't.
There's also very little demand for goat meat/milk in most industrialized countries. So basically, more labor= more cost. More disease=more cost. Sure, if every family raised goats it would work but in a society where very few people want to keep animals we are dependent on industrial farms and goats are not suitable for that type of farming.
I'm not comparing only with lamb and goats.
If you look at this, beef is by far less efficient than everything but sheep and goats:
https://www.wri.org/blog/2016/04/sustainable-diets-what-you-need-know-12-charts
https://www.wri.org/resources/charts-graphs/animal-based-foods-are-more-resource-intensive-plant-based-foods
Even if you exclude plant-based sources (which I wouldn't, since one option is just to eat less animal based, more plant based), chicken and pork are more efficient sources. Of course, right now the industrial farming of them is pretty horrible, but as Lynn said we aren't talking about morals, we are talking about the claim that cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world.
Yes, of course chicken and pork are more efficient sources of meant but obviously not dairy. I believe pork is already the most eaten meant world wide so...
So, yes, we could shift to more chicken and pork but they are probably even more industrialized than cattle. I've worked on an industrial chicken farm which is one reason I don't eat chicken from those farms. My job was to vaccinate chickens and pack them in cages for transport. Literally 20 chickens in a little square mesh cage. A stink in the barn so bad it wouldn't wash off. It's disgusting, even for farming. I know pig farmers and while the pigs are actually treated pretty well their farms are huge scale.
Most dairy and beef farmers seem to much smaller operations than pork, chicken and turkey operations. At least around here.
6 -
liftingbro wrote: »
No, there are fat people that eat all sorts of ways. Just saying that vegan diets are not optimal for maintaining muscle mass.liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.
really? you don't think there are fat vegans?
There are also well-muscled athletes who get enough good quality protein who are vegan.
Don't worry, I'm not going to go all "Game Changers" on you. I agree that it's a bit more difficult to get ideal nutrition without animal protein. It's not that hard, either. So, suboptimal isn't off the scale.
I'm also not saying everyone should be vegan.
I haven't researched it lately, but it used to be (decades back) that we fed meat animals more protein than we got out of them. For humans, meat is a more protein-efficient source in calorie terms, but that should be less of an issue for an athlete, I would think (high TDEE).
I was all with you on the sheep/goats vs. cows on some of the practicalities and consumer preferences, and those same preferences problems apply to plant protein vs. meat.
But I do think your position implying plant protein isn't technically sufficient for muscularity, health, or athleticism is not fully justified, even when we're talking global scale.
Repeating: I don't think everyone should be vegan. I'm not vegan. (I'm vegetarian. I would have no huge difficulty getting good-quality EAA-sufficient protein at bro levels, 1g+ per pound of LBM, entirely from plants. I just don't wanna.
) 10 -
Peeking at your profile, "around here" is probably not typical for beef operations, anyway, at least if one looks at the source of overall production, on average.
One question is whether chicken could be produced more efficiently than beef even if less industrialized. I suspect so, given that the issue with cattle in part is that the amount of calories they are fed is less than that they produce, and of course the land requirements.
There is some land that is likely better suited to cattle than other agricultural uses (I have family from areas of Nebraska where I believe that was so, and they had a ranch back in the late 1800s, early 1900s), but raising cattle only on such land, while much more efficient in terms of feeding than what we currently do would not come close to meeting demand. The question is if that is so, is the answer to say we need industrial cattle operations? I don't think we do. (Saying we don't "need" it to feed the world is a different question than whether it is ethically wrong for some reason, but I think the claim we need it is being used to avoid consideration of the other issues.)4
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