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Ethical food consumption

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  • liftingbroliftingbro Posts: 2,035Member Member Posts: 2,035Member Member
    mbaker566 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    daneejela wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »

    Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.

    Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.

    What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.

    To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.

    Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.

    EDIT:
    Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
    m5rry7gs1cy9.png

    Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
    My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.

    Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.

    Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.

    I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.

    Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.

    and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.

    That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.

    However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:

    https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/

    I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
  • mbaker566mbaker566 Posts: 10,633Member Member Posts: 10,633Member Member
    liftingbro wrote: »
    mbaker566 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    daneejela wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »

    Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.

    Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.

    What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.

    To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.

    Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.

    EDIT:
    Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
    m5rry7gs1cy9.png

    Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
    My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.

    Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.

    Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.

    I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.

    Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.

    and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.

    That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.

    However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:

    https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/

    I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.

    i read that article and i read others. it depends on the experience. some people like goats over cows, and vice versa. as far as homesteading, not industrial, goats are less dangerous. cows can do more damage easily. same for pigs. and then we have to consider milk/meat animals.
    if we are talking about ethical consumption, industrial isn't necessarily the best option. goats and sheep lend themselves to the less industrial meat economy.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Posts: 21,445Member Member Posts: 21,445Member Member
    amtyrell wrote: »
    I think different people have different ethical priorities. If you live within your own set of ethics that is a good thing. Often different ethical priorities conflict with one another.
    Minimal package vs accessible foods
    Local vs organic
    Vegitable based vs local in winter
    Meat vs processed vegan proteins

    I'm familiar with the ethical objections to meat, but what is the ethical objection to processing?
  • liftingbroliftingbro Posts: 2,035Member Member Posts: 2,035Member Member
    mbaker566 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    mbaker566 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    daneejela wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »

    Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.

    Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.

    What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.

    To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.

    Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.

    EDIT:
    Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
    m5rry7gs1cy9.png

    Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
    My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.

    Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.

    Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.

    I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.

    Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.

    and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.

    That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.

    However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:

    https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/

    I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.

    i read that article and i read others. it depends on the experience. some people like goats over cows, and vice versa. as far as homesteading, not industrial, goats are less dangerous. cows can do more damage easily. same for pigs. and then we have to consider milk/meat animals.
    if we are talking about ethical consumption, industrial isn't necessarily the best option. goats and sheep lend themselves to the less industrial meat economy.

    I agree for homesteading goats/sheep are much better. I think that's clear just from the size of the animal and relatively small amount of food and variable diet you can feed them. I was mainly saying they are not practical for supporting the current population of the planet.

  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Posts: 7,546Member Member Posts: 7,546Member Member
    liftingbro wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    daneejela wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »

    Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.

    Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.

    What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.

    To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.

    Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.

    EDIT:
    Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
    m5rry7gs1cy9.png

    Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
    My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.

    Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.

    Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.

    I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.

    Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.

    If that were the case the industrial farms would use more goats and sheep. It would be much more profit for them if it really worked that way. industrial farms are all about profit so I think it's pretty illogical to think that goats an sheep could produce the same as cattle.

    When something is a fact, it doesn't change to not being a fact just because other factors (mainly historical accidents and consumer preferences) influence the decision-making of industrial farms.

    ETA: profit does not depend solely on costs of production. It also depends on the price consumers are willing to pay for a given product and the size of the market.
    edited January 10
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Posts: 7,546Member Member Posts: 7,546Member Member
    liftingbro wrote: »
    mbaker566 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    daneejela wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »

    Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.

    Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.

    What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.

    To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.

    Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.

    EDIT:
    Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
    m5rry7gs1cy9.png

    Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
    My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.

    Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.

    Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.

    I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.

    Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.

    and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.

    That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.

    However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:

    https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/

    I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.

    "Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
  • liftingbroliftingbro Posts: 2,035Member Member Posts: 2,035Member Member
    liftingbro wrote: »
    mbaker566 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    daneejela wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »

    Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.

    Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.

    What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.

    To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.

    Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.

    EDIT:
    Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
    m5rry7gs1cy9.png

    Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
    My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.

    Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.

    Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.

    I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.

    Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.

    and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.

    That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.

    However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:

    https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/

    I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.

    "Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.

    May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.

  • RachelElserRachelElser Posts: 1,038Member Member Posts: 1,038Member Member
    I also try to eat as ethically as possible. There are several organic, grass feed farms (I visited one, the pastures are very nice) that sell whole and half cows, pigs, and chickens. Eggs I get from a guy at church who has chicken. I think milk is vile, so I don't drink it. I am planting a garden this year- i have deer but my friends hubby is going to build me an enclosed garden, yay! I also bought a house with a double lot and am planting fruit trees. There won't be fruit for a few years, but it's coming.

    But my main question is- what is the ethical argument against wool? Sheep grow wool not matter what, it doesn't harm them to sheer it off, so what the problem there?
  • Carlos_421Carlos_421 Posts: 5,073Member Member Posts: 5,073Member Member
    liftingbro wrote: »
    mbaker566 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    daneejela wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »

    Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.

    Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.

    What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.

    To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.

    Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.

    EDIT:
    Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
    m5rry7gs1cy9.png

    Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
    My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.

    Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.

    Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.

    I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.

    Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.

    and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.

    That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.

    However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:

    https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/

    I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.

    "Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.

    Ground that isn't suitable for cattle isn't suitable for food crops.
  • liftingbroliftingbro Posts: 2,035Member Member Posts: 2,035Member Member
    liftingbro wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    mbaker566 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    daneejela wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »

    Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.

    Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.

    What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.

    To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.

    Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.

    EDIT:
    Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
    m5rry7gs1cy9.png

    Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
    My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.

    Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.

    Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.

    I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.

    Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.

    and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.

    That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.

    However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:

    https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/

    I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.

    "Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.

    May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.

    I'm not talking about morals. I was addressing your repeated argument that somehow cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world and that other protein sources are impractical.

    It is. Unless you want to tell people they can't eat meat or have to eat less than the RDA. Even the RDA isn't suitable for active people though.

  • jm_1234jm_1234 Posts: 131Member Member Posts: 131Member Member
    Regarding wool, if you watch videos of industrial sheering it is can be pretty violent. In these systems the animals can be seen as organic machines or parts of the machine vs a living creature with its own wants for a good life. Plus, sometimes the wool is just a byproduct of a larger process that kills the lamb (I.e., Uggs lamb skin and wool boots)
  • liftingbroliftingbro Posts: 2,035Member Member Posts: 2,035Member Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    mbaker566 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    daneejela wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »

    Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.

    Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.

    What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.

    To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.

    Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.

    EDIT:
    Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
    m5rry7gs1cy9.png

    Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
    My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.

    Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.

    Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.

    I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.

    Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.

    and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.

    That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.

    However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:

    https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/

    I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.

    "Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.

    May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.

    I'm not talking about morals. I was addressing your repeated argument that somehow cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world and that other protein sources are impractical.

    It is. Unless you want to tell people they can't eat meat or have to eat less than the RDA. Even the RDA isn't suitable for active people though.

    What source are you basing that on? Plenty of other sources of protein seem more efficient to produce than beef.

    I already posted an article above about it.

    #1- Goats require more manual labor than cows.
    #2- The nature of goats means they get more diseases.
    #3- If it were true you could produce more meat and milk on a same sized farm as an average cattle based farm farmers would do that but they don't.

    There's also very little demand for goat meat/milk in most industrialized countries. So basically, more labor= more cost. More disease=more cost. Sure, if every family raised goats it would work but in a society where very few people want to keep animals we are dependent on industrial farms and goats are not suitable for that type of farming.
  • mbaker566mbaker566 Posts: 10,633Member Member Posts: 10,633Member Member
    jm_1234 wrote: »
    Regarding wool, if you watch videos of industrial sheering it is can be pretty violent. In these systems the animals can be seen as organic machines or parts of the machine vs a living creature with its own wants for a good life. Plus, sometimes the wool is just a byproduct of a larger process that kills the lamb (I.e., Uggs lamb skin and wool boots)

    as this is about ethical consumption, i would think we could generally agree that mechanized milking, sheering, etc that is typical in industrial farming, is not ideal
    ...
    even though my friends cousins' cows were milked by a milking machine and didn't mind it, the cows all had names and were grassfed for the most part. and were happy. it was a smaller herd. they said the cows once they got used to the machine seemed to like it better. done quicker, got to eat and move around more in their stalls.
  • liftingbroliftingbro Posts: 2,035Member Member Posts: 2,035Member Member
    mbaker566 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    mbaker566 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    daneejela wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »

    Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.

    Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.

    What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.

    To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.

    Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.

    EDIT:
    Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
    m5rry7gs1cy9.png

    Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
    My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.

    Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.

    Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.

    I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.

    Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.

    and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.

    That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.

    However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:

    https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/

    I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.

    "Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.

    May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.

    really? you don't think there are fat vegans?
    No, there are fat people that eat all sorts of ways. Just saying that vegan diets are not optimal for maintaining muscle mass.

  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Posts: 4,446Member Member Posts: 4,446Member Member
    liftingbro wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    mbaker566 wrote: »
    liftingbro wrote: »
    daneejela wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »

    Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.

    Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.

    What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.

    To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.

    Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.

    EDIT:
    Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
    m5rry7gs1cy9.png

    Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
    My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.

    Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.

    Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.

    I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.

    Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.

    and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.

    That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.

    However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:

    https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/

    I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.

    "Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.

    May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.

    I'm not talking about morals. I was addressing your repeated argument that somehow cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world and that other protein sources are impractical.

    It is. Unless you want to tell people they can't eat meat or have to eat less than the RDA. Even the RDA isn't suitable for active people though.

    What source are you basing that on? Plenty of other sources of protein seem more efficient to produce than beef.

    I already posted an article above about it.

    #1- Goats require more manual labor than cows.
    #2- The nature of goats means they get more diseases.
    #3- If it were true you could produce more meat and milk on a same sized farm as an average cattle based farm farmers would do that but they don't.

    There's also very little demand for goat meat/milk in most industrialized countries. So basically, more labor= more cost. More disease=more cost. Sure, if every family raised goats it would work but in a society where very few people want to keep animals we are dependent on industrial farms and goats are not suitable for that type of farming.

    I'm not comparing only with lamb and goats.

    If you look at this, beef is by far less efficient than everything but sheep and goats:

    https://www.wri.org/blog/2016/04/sustainable-diets-what-you-need-know-12-charts

    https://www.wri.org/resources/charts-graphs/animal-based-foods-are-more-resource-intensive-plant-based-foods

    Even if you exclude plant-based sources (which I wouldn't, since one option is just to eat less animal based, more plant based), chicken and pork are more efficient sources. Of course, right now the industrial farming of them is pretty horrible, but as Lynn said we aren't talking about morals, we are talking about the claim that cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world.
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