Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.

Jillian Michael comments about Lizzo

124

Replies

  • shunggie
    shunggie Posts: 1,036 Member
    nooshi713 wrote: »
    I see nothing wrong with what she said. She wasn’t being insulting. We are entitled to our opinions

    @nooshi713 I like how someone disagreed when your last line is we are entitled to our opinion. I'm assuming they don't disagree with that part :)
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    When I go to a major league sporting event, there are drunk people yelling profanities at the players, occasionally people getting into fights, weirdos hanging around the bathrooms, folks smoking weed in the parking lot. I had no idea sporting events in most of the country were paragons of virtue that are expected to pose no awkward moments you need to explain to your kids! Clearly I'm mistaken and need to choose different venues :smile:

    I think maybe you do need to choose different venues. I have been to all sorts of sporting events all over the country, and I believe you are mistaken if you believe that everything you described above is common place.

    Fair enough. While I'm not saying those things are "commonplace", in my experience they are something you need to be prepared for. They sell metric tons of alcohol. Some people get passionate and angry about their team. The tickets warn you if you get knocked unconscious by the ball or puck flying into the stands, it's on you. It just would never occur to me that a professional sporting event would be a place I should expect my children would be shielded from adult or inappropriate behavior, like an overweight woman twerking in the stands.

    I am not claiming that none of what you described never happens, but I can't say I have ever had a bad experience with my ladies at a sporting event. Yes, it's possible to get hit by a baseball, but thats why I don't seat a 3, 5, and 7 year old down either foul line. I make sure we have seats somewhere with a good view which allows me to react if a foul ball were to come our way. Yes, there are people drinking, but not all sporting events are equal in that aspect either. A college or pro football game is far more likely to involve tailgating and heavier drinking which in turn leads to more profanity and fighting. As a parent, I wouldn't imagine taking my girls to see the Raiders and Broncos play in Oakland, because that is one of the environments where what you described probably is more common place. The thing is, any environment packed with lots of people can be suspect(go people watch at a state fair in the midwest...its crazy), but thats when a parent should be on the greatest guard anyways. I just don't think its fair to single out sporting events as the issue, because I have never been at any game where someone "performed" like Lizzo did. If its done in public, I think its classless regardless of the venue, and the fact that its done in public leaves it open for scrutiny.

    I feel like you're missing my point, so maybe I'm not expressing myself well. There were posts before mine that seemed to me to be suggesting that parents shouldn't have to worry about their children being exposed to something as inappropriate as non-professional twerking at a sporting event, where that sort of thing simply doesn't happen. I was merely suggesting that I'm surprised people think of professional sporting events as some kind of safe-space for children. I'm not singling out sporting events as a bad place, I'm expressing surprise that some posters are singling them out as a wholesome place, at least as I'm reading their posts.

    I understand the point you are making, and I still stand by mine. I think that her actions at the game lacked class, and I would feel that way regardless of her body type. I wouldn't say that all sporting events are wholesome places, but I would say that there should at least be a level of decency at these events. If a fan gets drunk and verbally or physically abusive, they get booted. In my experience, 99% of the other fans don't tolerate crude behavior like that, and security has always been quick to act. People keep throwing out the cheerleaders uniforms and asking what the difference is, and with all due respect, that's an absurd comparison. Although I might not want my girls to leave my house dressed as a cheerleader, I have never seen a cheerleader in a thong grinding on people at a game. Like I stated earlier though, there are various degrees of these types of things depending on the sporting event. I would insist that a baseball game is indeed a wholesome event. The womens college basketball game I took my girls to last week was also a wholesome event. The Lakers game might be a different story simply because its LA, but I still stick to my assertion that what she did at that game was classless.

    I was the one who brought up the Laker Girls and it was to illustrate that it's perfectly normal to see large areas of the female body exposed at sporting events, it wasn't to say that they were "grinding" (although I have seen cheer routines that certainly seemed designed to spark more than just admiration for athletic ability, I'm not sure what the style of the Laker cheerleaders are).

    Is that you in your profile pic? If your daughters left the house in cheerleader uniforms, they'd be wearing more than you (or the gentleman in your profile pic). I bring this up because it sometimes seems that expectations for "class" in displaying one's body aren't always proportional between boys and girls, men and women. I don't know if that is the case here, but if you had sons would you okay with them wearing a sport-standard uniform that displayed their body (say, they wanted to be an Olympic-style diver)?

    Yes, that is my profile pic. It was taken at the age of 39 after working myself back into shape after 2 grueling years of fighting cancer and round after round of chemo. It was taken when I won a fitness competition and my picture was used later by the company that sponsored the competition for marketing purposes. Both men and women compete in these competitions, and both men and women pose for their pictures. Comparing my picture(which my face is cropped out, unlike in the competition) to dressing a certain way at a sporting event seems to be a giant leap Jane. I understand the point you are trying to make, and I generally agree with you, but I think you have missed the mark on this one.

    I apologize.
  • Go_Deskercise
    Go_Deskercise Posts: 1,630 Member
    edited January 2020
    raven56706 wrote: »
    JM said the truth and the truth hurts

    I'm not sure if you did that on purpose or not LOL

    https://youtu.be/P00HMxdsVZI
  • FoodBodyChanges
    FoodBodyChanges Posts: 29 Member
    Of course a fitness trainer is going to speak to health and fitness. The more interesting question is why the interviewer focused on a very large woman as opposed to a female figure whose body displays too low body fat to be healthy. As a culture we celebrate the physiques of models, ballet dancers, gymnasts, and bodybuilders. Let's talk about the cardiovascular dangers of things like cutting, anorexia & bulimia - and the added dangers to women when their body fat gets so low their menses stop.
  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 10,089 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    jseams1234 wrote: »
    jm_1234 wrote: »
    Regarding Lizzo... Lizzo rubs her body in people's faces in a way that seems like a PR stunt. As an example just google Lizzo Lakers and warning what she did at the Lakers game is NSFW. Lizzo does the same thing other celebs do but she is appealing to a different demographic so she is using a different tool.

    I interpret JM as saying Lizzo should not be defined by and should not get value by her body but more so by her singing. While it doesn't objectify via reduction to Lizzo's body, it is wrong also.

    IMO the saddest thing about this and most movements is companies & celebs are telling people what emotions are ok to feel - and now we should only feel positive emotions about our bodies. It should be ok to feel all emotions about our bodies because we are human, our self worth and value is not based on external changeable factors but on the sole fact we are human.

    Unless she made physical contact with people's faces, she is not rubbing her body in people's faces. She's just going out in the world in the body she lives in, and how other people react to that is their choice. (I don't click on NSW videos, so I don't know what she did, but since it's "the same thing other celebs do" I have to assume it's not illegal, like indecent exposure.)

    It's not a literal term and you know that. She wore a dress that had a giant circle cut out of the rear that showed her complete *kitten* which was only covered by a thong. She then, in a public place, with tens of thousands of people present - many of them young children, twerked that uncovered *kitten* for everybody to see.

    Nice "whataboutisms" further down - but I don't think Madonna, Howard Stern, or any other celebrity that I can think of has done something like this at a sports game in recent memory... maybe on stage or in Howard's case to promote a stupid movie.

    So the parents of these young children are okay with the uniforms of the Laker Girls, which expose nearly as much, but seeing Lizzo's body is the bridge too far? We see as much of other celebrities all the time. Opposing it as a general trend, I get, but claiming that Lizzo is somehow worse is ridiculous. She's not the first celebrity to appear in the thong, she's not the first celebrity to twerk, she's not the first celebrity to reveal to kids that adults have butts.

    Has Madonna done something like this in *recent* memory? Not that I'm aware of. But come on, you're acting like bringing up *Madonna* isn't relevant in a discussion about how Lizzo isn't the first female singer to display her body? That's not "whataboutism," it's acknowledging the reality that Lizzo is part of a hearty and longstanding tradition of female singers, she's just one of the biggest people to engage in it.

    The way I understand it she was an audience member showing her *kitten* at a game not a performer. The last time I saw a sporting event none of the cheerleaders or scheduled entertainers were wearing visible thongs.

    NBD, she is most likely somewhere around 14:30 on her 15:00 minutes if she feels she needs to do that to get attention.

    So the argument is that it is appropriate to show parts of your body if you're performing, but if you're merely part of the audience it isn't? I am not convinced of this. What's the relevant difference?

    If she had been performing at halftime in that uniform, it would somehow be more acceptable?

    The spectators generally know what the cheerleader look like at a sporting event and the leagues have certain standards they must abide by. They also have rules for costumes used by any of the entertainment at the game. If a spectator doesn't want to see the league approved dress (cheerleaders or entertainment), they have the right not to go to the event.

    If the NBA says a thong is fine dress for an entertainer, go for it with my blessings. If a publicity hound chooses to drop his or her drawers at a sporting event not really a fan of that.

    She didn't "drop her drawers." She was wearing a revealing dress, one that is legal. You've seen just as much of other pop stars. We don't have a right to control what others wear just because we're buying a ticket to an NBA game.

    Do you think that if you as a spectator at a game wore the same outfit, revealed yourself and acted in the same way you wouldn't at the very least be told to quit or possibly, more likely get kicked out and/or get a disorderly conduct violation?

    It was a cheap publicity stunt that people paying good money to attend the game shouldn't be subjected to IMO. If the team authorized it another story.

    My thoughts don't change regardless of her appearance.

    The "team" (in the sense of the business) let her in dressed that way and apparently chose to play one of her songs knowing she was sitting court-side, and then apparently chose to display her thong-exposed rear while she was dancing to her song on the jumbotron, so, yeah, I don't think there's any "if" to whether the team authorized it.

    You have obviously researched this more than I have (afraid what ads, suggestions, etc I would get if I Googled Lizzo twerking). It sounds like a publicity set up. Let them go for it. Fans that don't like that type of thing at a game can vote with their wallets and stay home.

    That said, my earlier comment still stands - "she is most likely somewhere around 14:30 on her 15:00 minutes if she feels she needs to do that to get attention".

    My only research was reading this thread. I didn't google or click on the links for the same reason you mention. Thus all the "apparently"s in my post -- I'm taking the (unchallenged) accounts of what happened at face value.
  • nooshi713
    nooshi713 Posts: 4,877 Member
    shunggie wrote: »
    nooshi713 wrote: »
    I see nothing wrong with what she said. She wasn’t being insulting. We are entitled to our opinions

    @nooshi713 I like how someone disagreed when your last line is we are entitled to our opinion. I'm assuming they don't disagree with that part :)

    Yep!!
  • neugebauer52
    neugebauer52 Posts: 1,120 Member
    ...and J.M's. opinion is important because?.....
  • bobsburgersfan
    bobsburgersfan Posts: 6,454 Member
    jm_1234 wrote: »
    The real issue is attaching our body to our self worth in general, even if it is positive. Our value should not change no matter how we feel about our body. There are days I feel like a monster and days I feel good looking - but my value never waivers.
    >light bulb< Thank you for saying this.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    edited February 2020
    I don't choose to comment on other people's weight or bodies unless they ask me to?

    I think it's great if people feel good about themselves and attractive no matter their weight, and I think Lizzo is a positive and extremely talented person. Of course, without commenting on any person in particular, while I think it is great and important that one should have self-esteem and positivity no matter their size, it is also true that obesity is a health risk and it would be good to find ways to help tackle this health risk societally. I think [go on about whatever she thinks is the best way to handle the problem generally, without focusing on Lizzo].
  • threewins
    threewins Posts: 1,455 Member
    edited February 2020
    .