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Thoughts on Beyond Burger and other fake meat
Replies
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janejellyroll wrote: »out of curiosity...
if you don't want to eat meat for ethical concerns, why would you want to eat something that tastes like it? I've never really gotten the point of "fake" meat
Because for an ethical vegan, the problem is the *process* that results in the meat, the impact to the individuals involved. There is no ethical problem with the taste or texture of meat. Some of us enjoyed it a great deal.
It's kind of like how many people enjoy some interpersonal activities very much when everyone involved is enjoying them, but those same activities become repugnant if not everyone is a willing participant. A sensory experience (of any type,not just taste) can be great if nobody is being hurt, but objectionable if someone is suffering as a result.
but it still tastes like something that is made objectionably. why eat it?
if i objected to guns, i probably wouldn't play with fake ones...
If I object to meat because it harms someone, why wouldn't I eat something that tastes like it but doesn't harm anyone (assuming the taste is one I like)? The source of my objection has been removed.
There are plenty of people who object to gun violence, but are fine with paintball.
There are plenty of people who object to murder, but are fine with an immersive haunted house experience that plays with the concept of people being killed or a gory horror movie.
There are plenty of people who loathe the idea of sex without consent but are fine with voluntary power exchanges.
I think we all understand the idea of enjoying a certain experience in some contexts while we have the potential to be utterly opposed to it in other contexts.
What a hamburger tastes like isn't the issue. It's the harm that's involved in the production that vegans have an issue with. There isn't a vegan alive who went vegan because we bit into a burger and said "That taste is ethically inappropriate." (Not that there aren't vegans or vegetarians who don't particularly care for meat, but that's a different issue).
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I really don't understand the "if you have an ethical objection to X, how can you like how it tastes" argument. Like I don't quite get why people think that.
If you stop doing something you enjoyed because of ethical concerns and could get the enjoyment without any violation of your ethics, why wouldn't you consider that a possibility?14 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »There is already a chicken pizza crust being sold for the keto crowd, but no "sky is falling" racket around that one.
The bacon crust one had tons of keto tags attached when I searched as well, but I left that out.
I mean a real product, not a recipe.
So that's basically an unbreaded flattened chicken parmigiana with some pepperoni on top?
Edited to add: LOL at the "Only minimally processed" on the box. I guess their definition of not processed is rather generous.
I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of "minimally processed" pepperoni.
Maybe I'm just wrong headed (as usual
), but that actually seems like using the word more like I'd use it in daily life: "Minimally processed XYZ" would be XYZ made through the simplest possible (minimal) process.
Foods like pepperoni are (IMO) traditional foods, and there's a traditional process for making them. I'm guessing it's a lot simpler than the modern mass-production methods. You grind up meats, mix them with spices and some minimal saltpeter (a mineral), stuff them in a casing, and dry/age them. It's not hyper-dramatically processed, in my view, i.e., not a lot of taking out chemical components, mixing in other extracted stuff, to the point where it's denatured.
It doesn't seem a lot more processed, to me, than many cheeses, tofu, etc.
Saltpeter is an ingredient in gunpowder!!!
Do you really want to be eating gunpowder???
ETA: Gunpowder is delicious on pizza.
Adds some extra bang for your buck?
oh very clever
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janejellyroll wrote: »out of curiosity...
if you don't want to eat meat for ethical concerns, why would you want to eat something that tastes like it? I've never really gotten the point of "fake" meat
Because for an ethical vegan, the problem is the *process* that results in the meat, the impact to the individuals involved. There is no ethical problem with the taste or texture of meat. Some of us enjoyed it a great deal.
It's kind of like how many people enjoy some interpersonal activities very much when everyone involved is enjoying them, but those same activities become repugnant if not everyone is a willing participant. A sensory experience (of any type,not just taste) can be great if nobody is being hurt, but objectionable if someone is suffering as a result.
but it still tastes like something that is made objectionably. why eat it?
if i objected to guns, i probably wouldn't play with fake ones...
That's like asking "if you're against child labor and sweatshops, why would you wear clothes that are ethically sourced?"
Some vegans still buy fake leather products. Same concept.10 -
I really don't understand the "if you have an ethical objection to X, how can you like how it tastes" argument. Like I don't quite get why people think that.
If you stop doing something you enjoyed because of ethical concerns and could get the enjoyment without any violation of your ethics, why wouldn't you consider that a possibility?
My mom quit smoking 40 years ago because she didn't want to get lung cancer, but she loves the smell of cigarettes and says if they told her tomorrow smoking was actually healthy she'd jump in the car and run out to buy a pack.
There are plenty of people out there who love the taste of meat but struggle with the ethics of modern food production and are trying to cut back or source better options, many with the goal of eventual vegetarianism or veganism. The reason they aren't there yet is often because they enjoy those foods and are struggling to replace them. I enjoy eating meat, but would jump at the chance to eat other foods with similar macros and taste that didn't require animals to be involved.
Vegetarianism and veganism can come from different motivators. While for some people the thought of what meat is is disgusting and they've never had any desire to eat it, others are fine with the idea of humane or ethical use of animals but abstain due to a lack of a guarantee that any food or product they have access to was obtained humanely. Also, you can like the taste (or smell or sound or feel) of something and hate what it is. Some folks are great at compartmentalizing and are able to enjoy a taste without automatically attributing it to something that disturbs them, while other people can't naturally do that and struggle with immediately associating tastes or smells or sounds with negative associations.
ETA: Perhaps it's tied into how you were raised. All I knew about the first foods I ate when I was little was they came from the grocery store, it didn't occur to me to think of a burger as cow meat or ham as a pig until a bit later. I was completely removed from the animal-foods industry. But I once found an abandoned bird's egg with little chick parts in the "yolk" and was never able to eat a runny yolk again.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »out of curiosity...
if you don't want to eat meat for ethical concerns, why would you want to eat something that tastes like it? I've never really gotten the point of "fake" meat
Because for an ethical vegan, the problem is the *process* that results in the meat, the impact to the individuals involved. There is no ethical problem with the taste or texture of meat. Some of us enjoyed it a great deal.
It's kind of like how many people enjoy some interpersonal activities very much when everyone involved is enjoying them, but those same activities become repugnant if not everyone is a willing participant. A sensory experience (of any type,not just taste) can be great if nobody is being hurt, but objectionable if someone is suffering as a result.
but it still tastes like something that is made objectionably. why eat it?
if i objected to guns, i probably wouldn't play with fake ones...
I think janejellyroll did a great job explaining it.
As an ethical vegan, I don't care if tastes like an animal died for it. I care if an animal did die for it.
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snickerscharlie wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »There is already a chicken pizza crust being sold for the keto crowd, but no "sky is falling" racket around that one.
The bacon crust one had tons of keto tags attached when I searched as well, but I left that out.
I mean a real product, not a recipe.
So that's basically an unbreaded flattened chicken parmigiana with some pepperoni on top?
Edited to add: LOL at the "Only minimally processed" on the box. I guess their definition of not processed is rather generous.
I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of "minimally processed" pepperoni.
It says it's 'Uncured.' What does that actually mean? It's uncured pepperoni essentially raw?
Uncured = still sick/diseased.
Because it's the kind of thread where words play like that.
(And because it may prove necessary.) 6 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »There is already a chicken pizza crust being sold for the keto crowd, but no "sky is falling" racket around that one.
The bacon crust one had tons of keto tags attached when I searched as well, but I left that out.
I mean a real product, not a recipe.
So that's basically an unbreaded flattened chicken parmigiana with some pepperoni on top?
Edited to add: LOL at the "Only minimally processed" on the box. I guess their definition of not processed is rather generous.
I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of "minimally processed" pepperoni.
It says it's 'Uncured.' What does that actually mean? It's uncured pepperoni essentially raw?
Uncured = still sick/diseased.
Because it's the kind of thread where words play like that.
(And because it may prove necessary.)
Speaking of word play, my Honda Accord has a sticker that says "Partial Zero Emissions vehicle." Huh?0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »There is already a chicken pizza crust being sold for the keto crowd, but no "sky is falling" racket around that one.
The bacon crust one had tons of keto tags attached when I searched as well, but I left that out.
I mean a real product, not a recipe.
So that's basically an unbreaded flattened chicken parmigiana with some pepperoni on top?
Edited to add: LOL at the "Only minimally processed" on the box. I guess their definition of not processed is rather generous.
I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of "minimally processed" pepperoni.
It says it's 'Uncured.' What does that actually mean? It's uncured pepperoni essentially raw?
Uncured = still sick/diseased.
Because it's the kind of thread where words play like that.
(And because it may prove necessary.)
Speaking of word play, my Honda Accord has a sticker that says "Partial Zero Emissions vehicle." Huh? 0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »There is already a chicken pizza crust being sold for the keto crowd, but no "sky is falling" racket around that one.
The bacon crust one had tons of keto tags attached when I searched as well, but I left that out.
I mean a real product, not a recipe.
So that's basically an unbreaded flattened chicken parmigiana with some pepperoni on top?
Edited to add: LOL at the "Only minimally processed" on the box. I guess their definition of not processed is rather generous.
I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of "minimally processed" pepperoni.
It says it's 'Uncured.' What does that actually mean? It's uncured pepperoni essentially raw?
Uncured = still sick/diseased.
Because it's the kind of thread where words play like that.
(And because it may prove necessary.)
Speaking of word play, my Honda Accord has a sticker that says "Partial Zero Emissions vehicle." Huh?
So sort of not pregnant.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »out of curiosity...
if you don't want to eat meat for ethical concerns, why would you want to eat something that tastes like it? I've never really gotten the point of "fake" meat
Because for an ethical vegan, the problem is the *process* that results in the meat, the impact to the individuals involved. There is no ethical problem with the taste or texture of meat. Some of us enjoyed it a great deal.
It's kind of like how many people enjoy some interpersonal activities very much when everyone involved is enjoying them, but those same activities become repugnant if not everyone is a willing participant. A sensory experience (of any type,not just taste) can be great if nobody is being hurt, but objectionable if someone is suffering as a result.
but it still tastes like something that is made objectionably. why eat it?
if i objected to guns, i probably wouldn't play with fake ones...
Because it has the same delicious taste, without being made objectionably...?
Your gun comparison might be valid if fake meat desensitised people towards real meat. How would that work in your head?2 -
i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.1 -
i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?4 -
i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?
i'm saying your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. but again, whatever works for you1 -
*Shrug* I keep strictly kosher, but that doesn't mean I won't add imitation bacon bits to a salad for a bit of salty crunch. Or put vegetarian pepperoni on a slice of cheese pizza.11
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i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?
i'm saying your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. but again, whatever works for you
Do most people reason about tastes, as the way to decide which they enjoy?
I sure don't.
I reason about food choices (some things are unethical, too caloric, too expensive, whatever). Tastes are more . . . intuitive?
Everyone's different, I guess.7 -
kshama2001 wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »There is already a chicken pizza crust being sold for the keto crowd, but no "sky is falling" racket around that one.
The bacon crust one had tons of keto tags attached when I searched as well, but I left that out.
I mean a real product, not a recipe.
So that's basically an unbreaded flattened chicken parmigiana with some pepperoni on top?
Edited to add: LOL at the "Only minimally processed" on the box. I guess their definition of not processed is rather generous.
I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of "minimally processed" pepperoni.
It says it's 'Uncured.' What does that actually mean? It's uncured pepperoni essentially raw?
Uncured = still sick/diseased.
Because it's the kind of thread where words play like that.
(And because it may prove necessary.)
Speaking of word play, my Honda Accord has a sticker that says "Partial Zero Emissions vehicle." Huh?
I just sat here reading that sentence three times in a row, hoping it would make more sense. Nope.1 -
i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
Why wouldn't you wear fake leather or fur if you were vegan? What would be the nature of your objection to it?5 -
i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?
i'm saying your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. but again, whatever works for you
If you were vegan would you quit: eating jello, using shampoo and conditioners, using paintbrushes, doing your makeup, and many other products just because they usually contain non-vegan ingredients? Using a synthetic paint brush should not really be an issue for a vegan, but you're saying it should. How does that make sense?8 -
"Fake" is such an overused term I gag every time I see it or hear it. 🤢
Now that my rant is out of my system, think how much food would be available if we went back to eating only foods that were not preserved/processed, grown without the aid of fertilizers/chemicals (even "natural" fertilizers contain chemicals) or without the aid of genetics (every living thing on planet Earth is a GMO - even you). Half the world's population would starve due to lack of food, and the other half would be so malnourished they, too, would die off in one to two generations.
If the food is purchased in a store it has been, one way or another, processed. One example is "fresh" apple (or other fruits/veggies) out of season. One of the methods of preserving them is storing them in oxygen-free atmospheres such as replacing all oxygen in the storage facility with nitrogen or other gas.
Eat as well as you can.
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i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?
i'm saying your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. but again, whatever works for you
To me, this sounds like a morality that is grounded in what it presents to others - the appearances of impropriety - rather than one grounded in consequences, or one grounded in particulars or virtues.11 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?
i'm saying your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. but again, whatever works for you
If you were vegan would you quit: eating jello, using shampoo and conditioners, using paintbrushes, doing your makeup, and many other products just because they usually contain non-vegan ingredients? Using a synthetic paint brush should not really be an issue for a vegan, but you're saying it should. How does that make sense?
Yes, you explained well why mbaker's argument is one that I don't so much disagree with, but just don't follow at all. Or why would the same argument not mean that vegans should avoid soy milk, as that is largely used because it somewhat shares the taste and mouthfeel and use of milk, and also has a similar protein content?
I think kimny's answer helped me somewhat -- the line of thought must be that someone eating a plant-based product intended to taste like beef is mimicking the experience of "eating cow." Instead, I think they are enjoying an experience of eating a tasty food that is usually (but not necessarily) made from beef. And I would add that I don't think most meat eaters enjoy a burger because it is the experience of "eating cow." I think they mostly don't think much about where the food comes from and unless they are specifically eating food they hunted for themselves aren't likely to be thinking about the animal much at all, more the taste. They simply are okay with that taste (and the nutrients it comes with) being provided by the animal.4 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?
i'm saying your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. but again, whatever works for you
If you were vegan would you quit: eating jello, using shampoo and conditioners, using paintbrushes, doing your makeup, and many other products just because they usually contain non-vegan ingredients? Using a synthetic paint brush should not really be an issue for a vegan, but you're saying it should. How does that make sense?
Yes, you explained well why mbaker's argument is one that I don't so much disagree with, but just don't follow at all. Or why would the same argument not mean that vegans should avoid soy milk, as that is largely used because it somewhat shares the taste and mouthfeel and use of milk, and also has a similar protein content?
I think kimny's answer helped me somewhat -- the line of thought must be that someone eating a plant-based product intended to taste like beef is mimicking the experience of "eating cow." Instead, I think they are enjoying an experience of eating a tasty food that is usually (but not necessarily) made from beef. And I would add that I don't think most meat eaters enjoy a burger because it is the experience of "eating cow." I think they mostly don't think much about where the food comes from and unless they are specifically eating food they hunted for themselves aren't likely to be thinking about the animal much at all, more the taste. They simply are okay with that taste (and the nutrients it comes with) being provided by the animal.
This is an interesting topic to me. My guess, just based on observations and experience, is that most people aren't actively thinking of the animal and experiencing pleasure specific to the action of eating them when they're eating meat. It's a pleasure of taste and texture, not a pleasure based on the actions that brought the animal to the state of being meat.
I think the exceptions would be hunters/farmers, who may feel pride/pleasure/pleasant associations with memories of the hunt or raising the animal (similar, perhaps, to how a gardener may feel when they're eating vegetables they grew themselves?) and maybe some people who have spiritual/mystical associations with the specific practice of consuming the body of someone who used to be alive (I've seen some people who are part of the "humane meat" community talk about quite specific pleasures of eating someone who they felt had a happier life than is usually given animals within the farming system).
Once you take this relatively small group of people out, I think there are people who enjoy meat and would even avoid faux meat due to concerns about processing/ingredients/unnaturalness, but still aren't actively focusing on how it all comes together.
When I ate meat, I certainly wouldn't have classified eating an individual animal as one of the pleasures of eating meat. It was simply something that had to happen so that I could eat meat, something that I thought was relatively inevitable. So once eating an animal was no longer acceptable to me, I had no problem with the opportunity to continue the "eating meat" part without the need to eat an animal.
I do think the argument that vegans should avoid meatlike products doesn't really make sense to me, given that we commonly eat foods that replicate milk, butter, cheese, etc. We also have a pretty widespread acceptance of things like portobello burgers. I guess my question for those who oppose faux meat on supposed ethical grounds would be "Where do you draw the line of what is 'too much' like an animal product to be okay?"3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?
i'm saying your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. but again, whatever works for you
If you were vegan would you quit: eating jello, using shampoo and conditioners, using paintbrushes, doing your makeup, and many other products just because they usually contain non-vegan ingredients? Using a synthetic paint brush should not really be an issue for a vegan, but you're saying it should. How does that make sense?
Yes, you explained well why mbaker's argument is one that I don't so much disagree with, but just don't follow at all. Or why would the same argument not mean that vegans should avoid soy milk, as that is largely used because it somewhat shares the taste and mouthfeel and use of milk, and also has a similar protein content?
I think kimny's answer helped me somewhat -- the line of thought must be that someone eating a plant-based product intended to taste like beef is mimicking the experience of "eating cow." Instead, I think they are enjoying an experience of eating a tasty food that is usually (but not necessarily) made from beef. And I would add that I don't think most meat eaters enjoy a burger because it is the experience of "eating cow." I think they mostly don't think much about where the food comes from and unless they are specifically eating food they hunted for themselves aren't likely to be thinking about the animal much at all, more the taste. They simply are okay with that taste (and the nutrients it comes with) being provided by the animal.
This is an interesting topic to me. My guess, just based on observations and experience, is that most people aren't actively thinking of the animal and experiencing pleasure specific to the action of eating them when they're eating meat. It's a pleasure of taste and texture, not a pleasure based on the actions that brought the animal to the state of being meat.
I think the exceptions would be hunters/farmers, who may feel pride/pleasure/pleasant associations with memories of the hunt or raising the animal (similar, perhaps, to how a gardener may feel when they're eating vegetables they grew themselves?) and maybe some people who have spiritual/mystical associations with the specific practice of consuming the body of someone who used to be alive (I've seen some people who are part of the "humane meat" community talk about quite specific pleasures of eating someone who they felt had a happier life than is usually given animals within the farming system).
Once you take this relatively small group of people out, I think there are people who enjoy meat and would even avoid faux meat due to concerns about processing/ingredients/unnaturalness, but still aren't actively focusing on how it all comes together.
When I ate meat, I certainly wouldn't have classified eating an individual animal as one of the pleasures of eating meat. It was simply something that had to happen so that I could eat meat, something that I thought was relatively inevitable. So once eating an animal was no longer acceptable to me, I had no problem with the opportunity to continue the "eating meat" part without the need to eat an animal.
I do think the argument that vegans should avoid meatlike products doesn't really make sense to me, given that we commonly eat foods that replicate milk, butter, cheese, etc. We also have a pretty widespread acceptance of things like portobello burgers. I guess my question for those who oppose faux meat on supposed ethical grounds would be "Where do you draw the line of what is 'too much' like an animal product to be okay?"
I relate to this. I don't typically think about what meat really is or where it comes from when I eat a burger or a ham sandwich or a fried egg and bacon. Like my story about the abandoned bird's egg, while I can't eat a runny yolk, I eat hard cooked eggs all the time. But I cannot bring myself to eat an entree that still looks like the animal, like a fish with it's head, or a whole pig that they actually carve in front of you. I eat cleaned shrimp, but am grossed out by crawfish with the heads still on. Like the Chinese duck in A Christmas Story, I can't eat it if it's looking at me! But my brain is habituated to thinking about a chicken cutlet or a steak as just disassociated "food", it just doesn't register for me. And I don't think that's all that unusual. I assume it's tied in to how separated many of us are from where our food comes from. It's what allows these industries to get away with the horrific practices they do. And it's not something I'm putting forward as a good thing, it's something I'm actively working to change in my thought process.
And I agree with @AnnPT77 that disagreeing with that "reasoning" is an odd choice of words. You don't choose what tastes you enjoy and which make you gag. They just do. You can choose not to eat something tasty for other reasons, just like you can choose to eat something that grosses you out because you are starving or to be polite. But you don't decide to like the taste of something.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?
i'm saying your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. but again, whatever works for you
If you were vegan would you quit: eating jello, using shampoo and conditioners, using paintbrushes, doing your makeup, and many other products just because they usually contain non-vegan ingredients? Using a synthetic paint brush should not really be an issue for a vegan, but you're saying it should. How does that make sense?
Yes, you explained well why mbaker's argument is one that I don't so much disagree with, but just don't follow at all. Or why would the same argument not mean that vegans should avoid soy milk, as that is largely used because it somewhat shares the taste and mouthfeel and use of milk, and also has a similar protein content?
I think kimny's answer helped me somewhat -- the line of thought must be that someone eating a plant-based product intended to taste like beef is mimicking the experience of "eating cow." Instead, I think they are enjoying an experience of eating a tasty food that is usually (but not necessarily) made from beef. And I would add that I don't think most meat eaters enjoy a burger because it is the experience of "eating cow." I think they mostly don't think much about where the food comes from and unless they are specifically eating food they hunted for themselves aren't likely to be thinking about the animal much at all, more the taste. They simply are okay with that taste (and the nutrients it comes with) being provided by the animal.
This is an interesting topic to me. My guess, just based on observations and experience, is that most people aren't actively thinking of the animal and experiencing pleasure specific to the action of eating them when they're eating meat. It's a pleasure of taste and texture, not a pleasure based on the actions that brought the animal to the state of being meat.
I think the exceptions would be hunters/farmers, who may feel pride/pleasure/pleasant associations with memories of the hunt or raising the animal (similar, perhaps, to how a gardener may feel when they're eating vegetables they grew themselves?) and maybe some people who have spiritual/mystical associations with the specific practice of consuming the body of someone who used to be alive (I've seen some people who are part of the "humane meat" community talk about quite specific pleasures of eating someone who they felt had a happier life than is usually given animals within the farming system).
Once you take this relatively small group of people out, I think there are people who enjoy meat and would even avoid faux meat due to concerns about processing/ingredients/unnaturalness, but still aren't actively focusing on how it all comes together.
When I ate meat, I certainly wouldn't have classified eating an individual animal as one of the pleasures of eating meat. It was simply something that had to happen so that I could eat meat, something that I thought was relatively inevitable. So once eating an animal was no longer acceptable to me, I had no problem with the opportunity to continue the "eating meat" part without the need to eat an animal.
I do think the argument that vegans should avoid meatlike products doesn't really make sense to me, given that we commonly eat foods that replicate milk, butter, cheese, etc. We also have a pretty widespread acceptance of things like portobello burgers. I guess my question for those who oppose faux meat on supposed ethical grounds would be "Where do you draw the line of what is 'too much' like an animal product to be okay?"
I relate to this. I don't typically think about what meat really is or where it comes from when I eat a burger or a ham sandwich or a fried egg and bacon. Like my story about the abandoned bird's egg, while I can't eat a runny yolk, I eat hard cooked eggs all the time. But I cannot bring myself to eat an entree that still looks like the animal, like a fish with it's head, or a whole pig that they actually carve in front of you. I eat cleaned shrimp, but am grossed out by crawfish with the heads still on. Like the Chinese duck in A Christmas Story, I can't eat it if it's looking at me! But my brain is habituated to thinking about a chicken cutlet or a steak as just disassociated "food", it just doesn't register for me. And I don't think that's all that unusual. I assume it's tied in to how separated many of us are from where our food comes from. It's what allows these industries to get away with the horrific practices they do. And it's not something I'm putting forward as a good thing, it's something I'm actively working to change in my thought process.
And I agree with @AnnPT77 that disagreeing with that "reasoning" is an odd choice of words. You don't choose what tastes you enjoy and which make you gag. They just do. You can choose not to eat something tasty for other reasons, just like you can choose to eat something that grosses you out because you are starving or to be polite. But you don't decide to like the taste of something.
I've known several people who don't like eating meat off the bone -- whether it's ribs or a fried chicken leg or whatever. They'll happily eat the same meat deboned, but eating it off the bone takes it out of the "food" category for them.
I was a relatively unbothered eater when I ate meat. I mean, there was stuff I didn't like the taste of, but there was little that really bothered me. I could eat, for example, a fish with a head. One thing I couldn't ever have done was eat something that was still alive (not a common practice in the West, but not unheard of in, say, Japan). It's something I couldn't ever have brought myself to try. I don't think the faux meat industry will ever make it that far into replicating culinary experiences!2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?
i'm saying your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. but again, whatever works for you
If you were vegan would you quit: eating jello, using shampoo and conditioners, using paintbrushes, doing your makeup, and many other products just because they usually contain non-vegan ingredients? Using a synthetic paint brush should not really be an issue for a vegan, but you're saying it should. How does that make sense?
Yes, you explained well why mbaker's argument is one that I don't so much disagree with, but just don't follow at all. Or why would the same argument not mean that vegans should avoid soy milk, as that is largely used because it somewhat shares the taste and mouthfeel and use of milk, and also has a similar protein content?
I think kimny's answer helped me somewhat -- the line of thought must be that someone eating a plant-based product intended to taste like beef is mimicking the experience of "eating cow." Instead, I think they are enjoying an experience of eating a tasty food that is usually (but not necessarily) made from beef. And I would add that I don't think most meat eaters enjoy a burger because it is the experience of "eating cow." I think they mostly don't think much about where the food comes from and unless they are specifically eating food they hunted for themselves aren't likely to be thinking about the animal much at all, more the taste. They simply are okay with that taste (and the nutrients it comes with) being provided by the animal.
If that's the contention, I extremely don't get it. Would a person who was raised vegan be okay, then, to eat beyond burgers, but someone that knows eating cows is doing something wrong having one? If not, the argument seems like there's an assumed spiritual component to veganism? Pretty sure nonspiritual veganism exists.2 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?
i'm saying your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. but again, whatever works for you
If you were vegan would you quit: eating jello, using shampoo and conditioners, using paintbrushes, doing your makeup, and many other products just because they usually contain non-vegan ingredients? Using a synthetic paint brush should not really be an issue for a vegan, but you're saying it should. How does that make sense?
Yes, you explained well why mbaker's argument is one that I don't so much disagree with, but just don't follow at all. Or why would the same argument not mean that vegans should avoid soy milk, as that is largely used because it somewhat shares the taste and mouthfeel and use of milk, and also has a similar protein content?
I think kimny's answer helped me somewhat -- the line of thought must be that someone eating a plant-based product intended to taste like beef is mimicking the experience of "eating cow." Instead, I think they are enjoying an experience of eating a tasty food that is usually (but not necessarily) made from beef. And I would add that I don't think most meat eaters enjoy a burger because it is the experience of "eating cow." I think they mostly don't think much about where the food comes from and unless they are specifically eating food they hunted for themselves aren't likely to be thinking about the animal much at all, more the taste. They simply are okay with that taste (and the nutrients it comes with) being provided by the animal.
If that's the contention, I extremely don't get it. Would a person who was raised vegan be okay, then, to eat beyond burgers, but someone that knows eating cows is doing something wrong having one? If not, the argument seems like there's an assumed spiritual component to veganism? Pretty sure nonspiritual veganism exists.
This is such an interesting observation. If the "wrongness" of a vegan eating a meat substitute comes from experiencing the similarity to animal-based meat, then a vegan who is unable to appreciate the similarity wouldn't be doing anything "wrong."
However, if the wrongness comes from *others* observing the behavior, then it would only be wrong if those observing you recognized that it was similar to meat. By this standard, any vegan eating any kind of ambigious or potentially misclassified food is doing something wrong.
If I go to Whole Foods and buy a vegan chocolate chip cookie and then walk down the street eating it, someone I pass may see me and assume it is a standard cookie. I have now transgressed as I am *appearing* to engage in the behavior of consuming animal products. This expectation would result in most vegans consuming food privately unless it is clearly labelled or obviously a non-animal product.5 -
I feel like we make everything complicated in this country. The BEST diet for you (unless you have very specific health concerns that REQUIRE you to eliminate certain foods) are a REAL, WHOLE FOODS DIET. The less processed the better... that goes for everything including food substitutes like the beyond meat burgers. Getting back to our basics- fruit, vegetables, and proteins consisting of fish, meat, poultry is what's needed. It's that simple. I lost 20 lbs 2 years ago before I was pregnant. Hardly ever exercised... literally just eliminated almost anything processed from my diet including *gasp* breads and vegetable oils, unless it was a special occasion that I felt I wanted to eat something at a restaurant or what have you. Didn't feel deprived. Didn't have to count macros. My taste buds literally changed. Inflammation went down, bloating gone, skin issues gone. It was eye opening. I switched to wild caught fish, grassfed or pasture raised meats. You literally cannot go wrong getting back to our primal, basics. If you want some hard truth on a lot of these issues I love the approach from integrative dietician Ali Miller, RD. It will change how you view our food.0
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janejellyroll wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?
i'm saying your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. but again, whatever works for you
If you were vegan would you quit: eating jello, using shampoo and conditioners, using paintbrushes, doing your makeup, and many other products just because they usually contain non-vegan ingredients? Using a synthetic paint brush should not really be an issue for a vegan, but you're saying it should. How does that make sense?
Yes, you explained well why mbaker's argument is one that I don't so much disagree with, but just don't follow at all. Or why would the same argument not mean that vegans should avoid soy milk, as that is largely used because it somewhat shares the taste and mouthfeel and use of milk, and also has a similar protein content?
I think kimny's answer helped me somewhat -- the line of thought must be that someone eating a plant-based product intended to taste like beef is mimicking the experience of "eating cow." Instead, I think they are enjoying an experience of eating a tasty food that is usually (but not necessarily) made from beef. And I would add that I don't think most meat eaters enjoy a burger because it is the experience of "eating cow." I think they mostly don't think much about where the food comes from and unless they are specifically eating food they hunted for themselves aren't likely to be thinking about the animal much at all, more the taste. They simply are okay with that taste (and the nutrients it comes with) being provided by the animal.
If that's the contention, I extremely don't get it. Would a person who was raised vegan be okay, then, to eat beyond burgers, but someone that knows eating cows is doing something wrong having one? If not, the argument seems like there's an assumed spiritual component to veganism? Pretty sure nonspiritual veganism exists.
This is such an interesting observation. If the "wrongness" of a vegan eating a meat substitute comes from experiencing the similarity to animal-based meat, then a vegan who is unable to appreciate the similarity wouldn't be doing anything "wrong."
However, if the wrongness comes from *others* observing the behavior, then it would only be wrong if those observing you recognized that it was similar to meat. By this standard, any vegan eating any kind of ambigious or potentially misclassified food is doing something wrong.
If I go to Whole Foods and buy a vegan chocolate chip cookie and then walk down the street eating it, someone I pass may see me and assume it is a standard cookie. I have now transgressed as I am *appearing* to engage in the behavior of consuming animal products. This expectation would result in most vegans consuming food privately unless it is clearly labelled or obviously a non-animal product.
So level 5 vegans eat nothing that cast a shadow, but level 6 vegans eat everything in shadows?8 -
I feel like we make everything complicated in this country. The BEST diet for you (unless you have very specific health concerns that REQUIRE you to eliminate certain foods) are a REAL, WHOLE FOODS DIET. The less processed the better... that goes for everything including food substitutes like the beyond meat burgers. Getting back to our basics- fruit, vegetables, and proteins consisting of fish, meat, poultry is what's needed. It's that simple. I lost 20 lbs 2 years ago before I was pregnant. Hardly ever exercised... literally just eliminated almost anything processed from my diet including *gasp* breads and vegetable oils, unless it was a special occasion that I felt I wanted to eat something at a restaurant or what have you. Didn't feel deprived. Didn't have to count macros. My taste buds literally changed. Inflammation went down, bloating gone, skin issues gone. It was eye opening. I switched to wild caught fish, grassfed or pasture raised meats. You literally cannot go wrong getting back to our primal, basics. If you want some hard truth on a lot of these issues I love the approach from integrative dietician Ali Miller, RD. It will change how you view our food.
Rarely have I found a post I disagree with so much, and yet felt so little interest in bothering with presenting counter factuals.
At most I feel like just bring up the cliched life expectancy of our primal ancestors as died at the ripe old age of found a delicious spot of tuberculosis infected carrion.16
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