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  • mockchocmockchoc Member Posts: 6,409 Member Member Posts: 6,409 Member
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    ReenieHJ wrote: »
    I was heartened when I ran to the store this a.m., needing a few things we're out of. A sign on their door read something to the affect that if you're not wearing a mask, you cannot enter the store. THAT made me happy. But then I go in and there are still 5 out of maybe 25 people NOT wearing a mask. WTH? Back up your signage and make them go home to get their mask or have disposables on hand to offer them! Otherwise, you lose all sense of credibility. :( And why bother posting a sign at all??
    My sister and I went to a book store yesterday that posted a sign on their door, 'Please wear a mask covering nose and mouth at all times'. My sister had a mask and we'd just entered but she forgot to pull it up. The worker came right over and politely asked her to cover her nose; my sister apologized and the lady was very polite.
    What a difference in how store policies are being handled.

    Others have mentioned the shooting/stabbing (which happened around here).

    I suspect that in addition to differences in store policy or employee assertiveness, there may be differences in the nature of the average shopper in particular kinds of stores, that comes into play. Obviously, any kind of person may go anywhere, but there's a reason bars frequently have bouncers, and bookstores rarely do. ;)

    Grocery stores get everyone in them, though different chains may appeal to different sub-markets. Bookstores, though there's variation of course, may on average have a narrower range of probable habitues.

    What differences?? If it's the policy, just enforce it. I know I CANNOT go inside anywhere without one, so I keep one in my pocket. On approaching the door, out comes my mask, and then i can enter. No fuss, no argument.

    Not everyone is Ok to do what they are asked as you are and I am the same. I'd do it no problem. How can every place there enforce this? I'm not from USA and don't have what is happening there Covid wise as much but is there even enough guards they can hire to do this? How do you think this can be done?
    edited July 31
  • GaleHawkinsGaleHawkins Member Posts: 7,945 Member Member Posts: 7,945 Member
    mockchoc wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    ReenieHJ wrote: »
    I was heartened when I ran to the store this a.m., needing a few things we're out of. A sign on their door read something to the affect that if you're not wearing a mask, you cannot enter the store. THAT made me happy. But then I go in and there are still 5 out of maybe 25 people NOT wearing a mask. WTH? Back up your signage and make them go home to get their mask or have disposables on hand to offer them! Otherwise, you lose all sense of credibility. :( And why bother posting a sign at all??
    My sister and I went to a book store yesterday that posted a sign on their door, 'Please wear a mask covering nose and mouth at all times'. My sister had a mask and we'd just entered but she forgot to pull it up. The worker came right over and politely asked her to cover her nose; my sister apologized and the lady was very polite.
    What a difference in how store policies are being handled.

    Others have mentioned the shooting/stabbing (which happened around here).

    I suspect that in addition to differences in store policy or employee assertiveness, there may be differences in the nature of the average shopper in particular kinds of stores, that comes into play. Obviously, any kind of person may go anywhere, but there's a reason bars frequently have bouncers, and bookstores rarely do. ;)

    Grocery stores get everyone in them, though different chains may appeal to different sub-markets. Bookstores, though there's variation of course, may on average have a narrower range of probable habitues.

    What differences?? If it's the policy, just enforce it. I know I CANNOT go inside anywhere without one, so I keep one in my pocket. On approaching the door, out comes my mask, and then i can enter. No fuss, no argument.

    Not everyone is Ok to do what they are asked as you are and I am the same. I'd do it no problem. How can every place there enforce this? I'm not from USA and don't have what is happening there Covid wise as much but is there even enough guards they can hire to do this? How do you think this can be done?

    It can not be done in a free society but it is something to chat about when bored.
  • hiparihipari Member, Premium Posts: 918 Member Member, Premium Posts: 918 Member
    ythannah wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »

    I’ve been on vacation for the past couple of weeks, but reading this just made me realize I have to decide and write our next installment of covid policy as the previous one is in effect until mid-August. Luckily it’s a small company and we’re able to move quickly, but I still wish I had a crystal ball that showed the future and if/when the second wave will hit our corner of the world. It’s a small company and I’m in no way a health&safety specialist, it just happens to fall within my overly wide job description. I still feel like I’m just making *kitten* up while trying to remain as clear and rational as possible while scrambling to keep everyone safe. Fun times making these kinds of decisions.

    No need to re-invent the wheel if you can network with someone in an administrative position at a similar business and find out how they're handling it. Or consult your local health authority for basic recommendations.

    I'm in a mid-size government office. We're taking our cues from the health unit, who is following the lead of the provincial health ministry.

    Yeah, we of course follow cues from officials. The problem is, the official working-from-home recommendation is only effective until July 31 but the public consensus is that it’s a risk if everyone returns at the same time and offices are full. So, I have to come up with a way that is safe, responsible, customised to our specific needs, and treats everyone at our office equally. I should add people have always been allowed to work from home pretty freely, and before the pandemic we were steering towards stricter rules on office presence on certain days. Balancing that with the pandemic and switching directions at the right time will be difficult.

    There are also questions about not just working-from-home but contact tracing, office space and things like keeping the coffee maker and bathrooms safe, company events, what to do if customers start to require on-site presence again and so on.

    We are in IT so there’s no practical reason for customers to require all work is done on-site, but especially public offices often require it anyway and we have a lot of them as customers. They were forced to allow consultants to work from home as the government literally ordered all public offices to close and move to remote work, but it was still a huge hassle. With the official recommendations and rulings over, we have to see what our biggest customers do in terms of requiring on-site presence. If some/all do, it also brings questions like safe transportation for employees, multiplying exposure risks by visiting both customer and own office etc.
  • rheddmobilerheddmobile Member Posts: 5,627 Member Member Posts: 5,627 Member
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    I am not prepared, now, for the new work guidelines.

    As of today, we are required to do a Prework Health Check. Well, I woke up with a headache, so the system told me to stay home and I can't come back until I'm cleared by my health care provider. So I called Teladoc. Who are not authorized (nobody is) to clear me for Covid. Over a headache. No fever, no cough, no nothing, but a headache.

    Of course, calling the Teladoc managed to trigger an anxiety attack. So that was lovely.

    I'm not sure how to resolve this.

    I'm locked out of performing the next Prework Health Check until I contact a manager. I have no idea who is actually a manager, vs a supervisor, and I definitely don't have any contact information. I texted my supervisor, but like he already told me, all he got was the same flyer they handed me at the door.

    I guess I just walk in with the Teladoc diagnosis of "headache" printed out as proof that I sought care, and hope for the best. Super system we got here, keeping everyone safe. I half hope they fire me. Maybe I should try harder.

    This kind of system encourages people to lie. It's like at my husband's work. The first day they implemented screening like this, he was asked, "have you come in contact with a covid positive person?" He answered, "I don't know. I don't think so. How would I know that?" The employee screening him sent him home and told him he was supposed to say "no" definitively. Sent the next guy home because of his allergies. Asked if he had a cough. The guy said he just had the usual allergy cough he had every morning of his life. Nothing new or any other symptoms. He got sent home. Half the staff was sent home that first day. Managers had to call everybody back in and "coach" them how to respond to the screening questions. Everybody basically learned to lie after that. The coworker with the frequent migraines straight up lies to the screener's face multiple times per week. If this becomes a habit, actual sick people might start lying. Maybe they need more than just strict yes/no questions as your ticket into work.

    Right now, I'm waiting out the clock. I have followed the next steps, as outlined by the app. My manager is now required to reset the app so I can pre-screen for work. I am allowed/required to do this "no later than one hour before scheduled start time" which is 2:40am today. The app is not yet reset, and I don't expect them to reset it. I have already started looking for a new job. This is a stupid game that brings me no joy, and I don't know why I'm playing it.
    The problem with allowing individual employees to decide whether their symptoms should “count” towards passing or failing the checklist is that a lot of supposedly asymptomatic transmission turns out, in retrospect, to be presymptomatic - “I just had a runny nose and thought it was my usual allergies but then I got a fever on the third day” - or what they call paucisymptomatic, which means there were symptoms but they never got serious enough for the individual to realize they were sick until afterwards, when they realize they “felt a little off for a couple of weeks.”

    Not to mention people like my mom who will bust out with a rattling chest cough in the middle of December and claim it’s hay fever. Dude. There is nothing blooming now. That’s bronchitis! People are amazing in their ability to insist they couldn’t possibly be contagious, in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Like the person mentioned above who is still going to the gym with a positive test.

    Well, I'm not trying to decide for myself whether a single symptom "counts" or not. I consulted the Teladoc. Do you trust the doctor to discount my single symptom?

    My supervisor got back to me tonight. It's the third day. I missed his text, because I gave up and sent my resume in to the local temp agency and have already got a new job to start tomorrow. The client is requiring physical pre-work screening, actually sending people home if they report to work with a fever, requiring masks and distancing. At least, according to the recruiter. I'm looking forward to work for an employer who cares.
    It wasn’t my intention to criticize you or say you personally have done anything wrong. The situation for businesses trying to keep employees from spreading is impossible. Just pointing out that letting the employee with the cough, the migraine, or the sniffles from allergies decide it’s okay and go in anyway isn’t a workable option either. The only workable option would be for businesses to have instant access to the kind of quick test they have now for strep, which takes 15 minutes and a small, portable setup. There is such a thing for covid already, but a) it’s not readily available and b) it seems to have a large number of false positives. So the setup would need to be, report symptoms, get quick tested, if quick test is positive get sent home with a regular test, get more accurate results in 24 hours.

    But regular testing is running as long as 20 days to results in my location, which makes it essentially useless, so I don’t see that happening any time soon.

    Anyway your job situation sucks and I hope the temp thing works out for you.
  • ReenieHJReenieHJ Member Posts: 2,246 Member Member Posts: 2,246 Member
    ElioraFR wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    kushiel1 wrote: »
    The harsh reality is that those with the fewest resources to keep safe have the most pressure to get back to pre-covid practices.

    Honestly this restriction has gone on long enough that this group is probably approaching critical mass right now.

    Those of you in this thread who are the loudest proponents of social distancing and masks and quarantines...how would you feel about all this were you not privileged? It's easy for those with stay-home capability to pontificate from their keyboards but the reality is that tens of millions of people are living basically hand-to-mouth even in the best of economic times.

    Unless you know a way to fabricate money out of thin air, I think allowing everyone to make their own choice is going to be the only way forward. Yes, people are going to die. More people won't. The choice should not be up to rich people living in comfortable isolation with plenty of money.

    I've often wondered as I'm reading this thread how those who are isolated are doing. I see so many people saying we need to keep parents/grandparents safe and essentially totally isolated to keep them from getting Covid. In no way do I think we should deliberately spread it to those who are most vulnerable, but is it worth grandpa getting a longer life if that life is spent in isolation and him being unhappy due to not being able to spend time, hug or even see his family? There needs to be balance for all...I'm not sure what the answer is but the mental health effects on our most vulnerable are not being taken into consideration it seems like.

    Plus e-learning just won't work for so many kids - whether it's because they do not have the resources at home to be able to utilize it, don't have the necessary supervision/involved parents to be successful or a multitude of other factors - we aren't doing most kids any favors by keeping them at home.

    Very well said. This thing is dragging on so long, we really have to review our thinking now.

    I can only speak for myself, not the words of all grandparents: I would rather live isolated than die from hugging my relatives. I'm not, unfortunately, one of the priviledged, so I can't speak for them either, my words only: I would rather be poor, only have two chairs, no tv, no couch, no curtains, not own my own home, and continue to live in a noisy apartment with rude neighbors, unable to get fresh fruit, ( I could fo on and on ) rather than die by the Covid19 disease. Please stop the 'old people should just get on with dying 'cause their life quality ain't really worth much' talk. It won't help many of us just back down and wimp away towards death, rather it seems to instill more grit. How can you say such things? Everyone's life is worth living for them, even if you can't see it.

    As far as the kids getting back to school? I doubt it is so important as all that. So what if every student is set back one year? That is worst case scenario. Most people spend more than necessary, most could tighten up their budgets and one parent stay home to home school or be on hand to monitor the on-line classes. Why wouldn't they want to do that? It would give stronger bonds between parents and children. There is still much hope for vaccines. Its not going too be like this forever.

    I wish that most everyone were not so quickly running out to meet death.

    I feel the same way, just wasn't brave enough to voice it. :blush: Thank YOU for speaking out though. :)
  • ReenieHJReenieHJ Member Posts: 2,246 Member Member Posts: 2,246 Member
    ReenieHJ wrote: »
    I was heartened when I ran to the store this a.m., needing a few things we're out of. A sign on their door read something to the affect that if you're not wearing a mask, you cannot enter the store. THAT made me happy. But then I go in and there are still 5 out of maybe 25 people NOT wearing a mask. WTH? Back up your signage and make them go home to get their mask or have disposables on hand to offer them! Otherwise, you lose all sense of credibility. :( And why bother posting a sign at all??
    My sister and I went to a book store yesterday that posted a sign on their door, 'Please wear a mask covering nose and mouth at all times'. My sister had a mask and we'd just entered but she forgot to pull it up. The worker came right over and politely asked her to cover her nose; my sister apologized and the lady was very polite.
    What a difference in how store policies are being handled.

    I don't know where you are located, but given that in the U.S. retail employees that have tried to enforce masking policies have been screamed at by in-your-face spittle-spewing maskless individuals, physically assaulted, and even shot and killed, I don't think it's fair to ask people who are already at greater-than-average exposure from their jobs -- probably for lower-than-average wages -- to take on the added risk of masking enforcement.

    I don't know what the right answer is to enforcing masking requirements, but it doesn't seem fair to ask the retail workers to take on that burden.

    While I agree with you, simply putting up a sign isn't going to change a thing. :( You either enforce it or take it down because otherwise, more and more people are not going to listen to anyone's rules. :( Well, except the ones who care anyways. There has got to be a way to stand behind a store's policies.

    I'm in Vermont and I know people can take a very defensive stance to being told what to do if they don't want to do it(much like a toddler). It's happening most everywhere. I don't blame retailers who are in a very vulnerable position to not engage in a possible volatile situation. But any time you make a rule and not enforce it, you lose all credibility. :(
    Places like McDonalds, etc., who are claiming you have to wear a mask....how do they deal with an irate customer?
  • JustSomeEmJustSomeEm Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 18,295 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 18,295 MFP Moderator
    ElioraFR wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    kushiel1 wrote: »
    The harsh reality is that those with the fewest resources to keep safe have the most pressure to get back to pre-covid practices.

    Honestly this restriction has gone on long enough that this group is probably approaching critical mass right now.

    Those of you in this thread who are the loudest proponents of social distancing and masks and quarantines...how would you feel about all this were you not privileged? It's easy for those with stay-home capability to pontificate from their keyboards but the reality is that tens of millions of people are living basically hand-to-mouth even in the best of economic times.

    Unless you know a way to fabricate money out of thin air, I think allowing everyone to make their own choice is going to be the only way forward. Yes, people are going to die. More people won't. The choice should not be up to rich people living in comfortable isolation with plenty of money.

    I've often wondered as I'm reading this thread how those who are isolated are doing. I see so many people saying we need to keep parents/grandparents safe and essentially totally isolated to keep them from getting Covid. In no way do I think we should deliberately spread it to those who are most vulnerable, but is it worth grandpa getting a longer life if that life is spent in isolation and him being unhappy due to not being able to spend time, hug or even see his family? There needs to be balance for all...I'm not sure what the answer is but the mental health effects on our most vulnerable are not being taken into consideration it seems like.

    Plus e-learning just won't work for so many kids - whether it's because they do not have the resources at home to be able to utilize it, don't have the necessary supervision/involved parents to be successful or a multitude of other factors - we aren't doing most kids any favors by keeping them at home.

    Very well said. This thing is dragging on so long, we really have to review our thinking now.

    I can only speak for myself, not the words of all grandparents: I would rather live isolated than die from hugging my relatives. I'm not, unfortunately, one of the priviledged, so I can't speak for them either, my words only: I would rather be poor, only have two chairs, no tv, no couch, no curtains, not own my own home, and continue to live in a noisy apartment with rude neighbors, unable to get fresh fruit, ( I could fo on and on ) rather than die by the Covid19 disease. Please stop the 'old people should just get on with dying 'cause their life quality ain't really worth much' talk. It won't help many of us just back down and wimp away towards death, rather it seems to instill more grit. How can you say such things? Everyone's life is worth living for them, even if you can't see it.

    As far as the kids getting back to school? I doubt it is so important as all that. So what if every student is set back one year? That is worst case scenario. Most people spend more than necessary, most could tighten up their budgets and one parent stay home to home school or be on hand to monitor the on-line classes. Why wouldn't they want to do that? It would give stronger bonds between parents and children. There is still much hope for vaccines. Its not going too be like this forever.

    I wish that most everyone were not so quickly running out to meet death.

    I did not read Kushiel's post (the quote in Tony's post which you quoted) to mean that she felt the elderly and vulnerable should 'get on with dying'. I think the point is that in isolating everyone through social distancing, we may be worrying about everyone's physical health without taking into account their mental health. I don't believe anyone in this thread is dismissing anyone else's life as not worth much. My mother is older, and falls into several vulnerable categories. While she is being careful, she also believes that when it's her time to die she will die regardless of where she is or what she is doing. I have a similar philosophy (she did raise me, after all) - it's one of the reasons I can go skydiving and am willing to cycle on a busy road. My mother would rather not be isolated from her loved ones even though she understands the risks. Luckily I live 500 miles away from her, so if she does get COVID it won't be because I gave it to her (and that is totally selfish, but I'm over here just being honest). I love her dearly.

    I have a teenage son who was absolutely crushed when they made the determination locally that school would be fully online in the fall. I understand and am okay with the decision, and so is he. However I worry quite a bit about his psychological health due to a lack of socializing, and one of the things we're going to need to do for him is make sure he does get some social interaction. I'm not sure what that looks like yet (maybe small study groups?), but to kushiel1's point - some people take the stress of social isolation much harder than others. A somewhat old article that talks about this: https://health.usnews.com/conditions/articles/social-distancing-and-suicide-risk


    Edited because love and live are not the same. :p
    edited July 31
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