Doctor wants me to try low fat plant based diet. Very difficult, need resources.
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singingflutelady wrote: »But you said:
"carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death
The Mediterrean diet has 50% carbs. Vegan diets 60% carbs. Follow these diets and you will get progressively sicker and die young"
Funny how people who on average live longer than the rest of the world eat carbs which you declare will make you get progressively sicker and die young. Apparently they don't
Wrong. I am vegan and my diet was less than 30 on average for a long time until recently on some days I feel that my body wants more carbs. I have had periods where my macros were both high fat and high proteins
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savannahs21 wrote: »Dr. McDougall is probably the leading expert when it comes to low fat veganism. He has decades of research on low fat.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/
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Much of this discussion is way out of perspective. Anyone who tells me bacon is healthier than a banana... really?
First, If someone is a diabetic they need to figure out the foods that induce spikes. It could be that banana, it could be bacon. Often times the weight loss from a reduction of calories is the contributing factor. Not specifically just diet.
I highly doubt having a few slices of mango, berries or banana on occasion will cause diabetes. I also do not think having a processed sweet or even fried meat once in a blue moon will pose a threat. Lets be real here. Moderation, less intake, proper balance and activity is health promoting. Keto is not meant for long term. Low carb is fine, low fat ifs fine if it is making you healthier.
Eat less, move more, be happy and base your diet on whole foods. It is not rocket science.4 -
savannahs21 wrote: »Dr. McDougall is probably the leading expert when it comes to low fat veganism. He has decades of research on low fat.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/
Dr. McDougall was our family's physician in Hawaii decades ago before the headed to No. Calif. I still have a 1979 cookbook he gave me, he was very into sharing his information with his patients (for those who wanted it). Barley Soup, chili, Vegie Salad Dressing.... that sort of thing. I think they were actually his wife's Mary's recipes.
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It's simple.
carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death
The Mediterrean diet has 50% carbs. Vegan diets 60% carbs. Follow these diets and you will get progressively sicker and die young.
Any questions?
The question i have is where do you get this crap? This is a horrible understanding of science.
Suggesting carbs cause obesity, T2 diabetes, or IR shows your lack of knowledge. All of those diseases are multifaceted. All have lifestyle and genetic implications. But none of those are caused by carbs.
The world have a wide variety of diets where you can thrive. Very few world populations actually thrive on low carb or ketogenic diets. But i certainly don't think there is any data to suggest you cant thrive on low carb or ketogenic diets. People saying that are just as wrong. Humans are adaptable.
And if people really want to argue semantics, in order to thrive on vegan diets, requires fortification or supplementation.
A diet made up of lean proteins, low fat dairy, fruits, and vegetables is one of the healthiest, at least according to the most recent meta analysis.
But what is most important is maintaining a good weight, exercising, limit drinking, not smoking and having a varied diet.14 -
Much of this discussion is way out of perspective. Anyone who tells me bacon is healthier than a banana... really?
First, If someone is a diabetic they need to figure out the foods that induce spikes. It could be that banana, it could be bacon. Often times the weight loss from a reduction of calories is the contributing factor. Not specifically just diet.
I highly doubt having a few slices of mango, berries or banana on occasion will cause diabetes. I also do not think having a processed sweet or even fried meat once in a blue moon will pose a threat. Lets be real here. Moderation, less intake, proper balance and activity is health promoting. Keto is not meant for long term. Low carb is fine, low fat ifs fine if it is making you healthier.
Eat less, move more, be happy and base your diet on whole foods. It is not rocket science.
First, why would you compare a banana to bacon? If anyone was going to make a pedantic argument of animal based verse plant based foods, they would argue a steak or fish vs a banana. Why? Both are whole food sources. Second, bacon isn't causing insulin to spike. Bacon is almost all fat. Fat doesn't really cause an insulin spike. A banana would. Its pretty high in carbs.So if you are going to try to make an argument, use something realistic.
And show me the data on keto not being good long term. I'd love to see it.
Overall, i agree with what you are saying, but you're semantics are off.
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singingflutelady wrote: »But you said:
"carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death
The Mediterrean diet has 50% carbs. Vegan diets 60% carbs. Follow these diets and you will get progressively sicker and die young"
Funny how people who on average live longer than the rest of the world eat carbs which you declare will make you get progressively sicker and die young. Apparently they don't
Wrong. I am vegan and my diet was less than 30 on average for a long time until recently on some days I feel that my body wants more carbs. I have had periods where my macros were both high fat and high proteins
I was quoting that dude. I don't have any issues with vegans at all1 -
It's simple.
carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death
The Mediterrean diet has 50% carbs. Vegan diets 60% carbs. Follow these diets and you will get progressively sicker and die young.
Any questions?
First of all, vegans -- like non-vegans -- can vary the amount of carbohydrates in their diet. Second, what evidence do you have for the claim that we -- as a population -- get progressively sicker than non-vegans and die younger than them?
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Blue zone people are NOT vegans. They eat an ANIMAL BASED DIET. They laugh at vegans and think they are very silly. I totally agree.
The people in Loma Linda, CA don't laugh at vegans. Many of them are vegan or eat plant-based diets themselves. You should really stop because you clearly don't know what you're talking about.12 -
Well, looks like this thread kind of blew up. I have tried eating various things and checking sugars 2 hours later, then presenting findings to the endocrinologist. I'm super carb sensitive even if those carbs are whole grains, high fiber veg, etc. So I eat a lot of nonstarchy vegetables, fish, lean meat and poultry, lowfat dairy, some nuts, a small amount of berries or a single clementine (or for vitamin C I put lemon juice in things like home made salad dressing.)
Everyone is different. I do take issue with my GP thinking there is a one size fits all diet that will fix everybody. Endocrinologist says "veganism works for some diabetics... but not you." Reason is the lazy time delay pancreas, no sense in repeating all that again. In no way am I going to argue over what anyone who isn't me should be eating.10 -
Well, looks like this thread kind of blew up. I have tried eating various things and checking sugars 2 hours later, then presenting findings to the endocrinologist. I'm super carb sensitive even if those carbs are whole grains, high fiber veg, etc. So I eat a lot of nonstarchy vegetables, fish, lean meat and poultry, lowfat dairy, some nuts, a small amount of berries or a single clementine (or for vitamin C I put lemon juice in things like home made salad dressing.)
Everyone is different. I do take issue with my GP thinking there is a one size fits all diet that will fix everybody. Endocrinologist says "veganism works for some diabetics... but not you." Reason is the lazy time delay pancreas, no sense in repeating all that again. In no way am I going to argue over what anyone who isn't me should be eating.
I didn't say it earlier, but I'm glad you were able to find a way of eating that helps. I remembered this thread and I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to keep getting that kind of unhelpful guidance from your doctor.
I know some diabetics who have had fantastic results from a plant-based diet, but it's ridiculous to assume that everyone is going to respond the same way.7 -
The GP sounds like a chiropractor or food life coach.
If you'd expressed "Everyone is different. I do take issue with my GP thinking there is a one size fits all diet that will fix everybody. Endocrinologist says "veganism works for some diabetics... but not you." Reason is the lazy time delay pancreas"...
from the get-go it would've cleared many areas up.0 -
Much of this discussion is way out of perspective. Anyone who tells me bacon is healthier than a banana... really?
First, If someone is a diabetic they need to figure out the foods that induce spikes. It could be that banana, it could be bacon. Often times the weight loss from a reduction of calories is the contributing factor. Not specifically just diet.
I highly doubt having a few slices of mango, berries or banana on occasion will cause diabetes. I also do not think having a processed sweet or even fried meat once in a blue moon will pose a threat. Lets be real here. Moderation, less intake, proper balance and activity is health promoting. Keto is not meant for long term. Low carb is fine, low fat ifs fine if it is making you healthier.
Eat less, move more, be happy and base your diet on whole foods. It is not rocket science.
First, why would you compare a banana to bacon? If anyone was going to make a pedantic argument of animal based verse plant based foods, they would argue a steak or fish vs a banana. Why? Both are whole food sources. Second, bacon isn't causing insulin to spike. Bacon is almost all fat. Fat doesn't really cause an insulin spike. A banana would. Its pretty high in carbs.So if you are going to try to make an argument, use something realistic.
And show me the data on keto not being good long term. I'd love to see it.
Overall, i agree with what you are saying, but you're semantics are off.
Ok banana to bacon may have been wrong articulation on my point. I have had custmers say things very much like that I just get fustrated because I work in a health food store and the misinformation is horrible to watch
I would be happy to get science on keto long term possible side affects. I'm at wrk so hold on til tonight😉1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Blue zone people are NOT vegans. They eat an ANIMAL BASED DIET. They laugh at vegans and think they are very silly. I totally agree.
The people in Loma Linda, CA don't laugh at vegans. Many of them are vegan or eat plant-based diets themselves. You should really stop because you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Yep! Loma Linda is about an hour from me. I know several of the Seventh Day Adventists from there. Most are plant based and in very good health.5 -
Much of this discussion is way out of perspective. Anyone who tells me bacon is healthier than a banana... really?
First, If someone is a diabetic they need to figure out the foods that induce spikes. It could be that banana, it could be bacon. Often times the weight loss from a reduction of calories is the contributing factor. Not specifically just diet.
I highly doubt having a few slices of mango, berries or banana on occasion will cause diabetes. I also do not think having a processed sweet or even fried meat once in a blue moon will pose a threat. Lets be real here. Moderation, less intake, proper balance and activity is health promoting. Keto is not meant for long term. Low carb is fine, low fat ifs fine if it is making you healthier.
Eat less, move more, be happy and base your diet on whole foods. It is not rocket science.
First, why would you compare a banana to bacon? If anyone was going to make a pedantic argument of animal based verse plant based foods, they would argue a steak or fish vs a banana. Why? Both are whole food sources. Second, bacon isn't causing insulin to spike. Bacon is almost all fat. Fat doesn't really cause an insulin spike. A banana would. Its pretty high in carbs.So if you are going to try to make an argument, use something realistic.
And show me the data on keto not being good long term. I'd love to see it.
Overall, i agree with what you are saying, but you're semantics are off.
Ok banana to bacon may have been wrong articulation on my point. I have had custmers say things very much like that I just get fustrated because I work in a health food store and the misinformation is horrible to watch
I would be happy to get science on keto long term possible side affects. I'm at wrk so hold on til tonight😉
I'll hold. I will be interested in any data because i have yet to see a study on the data. Also, i think people over generalizate what Keto can or cannot be. Just like vegan, there is a huge variation on how to implement it. When i am Keto, i eat avocado almost daily, low gi berries, lean meats, fatty fish, and low fat dairy. I add fats thru whole eggs, nuts, seeds and avocado oil. I rarely eat processed meats. Most of my meats are black angus or grass fed.5 -
I am an ER PA and work with a lot of cardiologists. They all promote a plant based diet. Most are vegetarian. I have a lot of diabetic patients come to the ER too so have experience with this. Aside, I have been to Greece and Costa Rica and always lost weight on vacations there. The food was very healthy. I’m not diabetic but do think the Mediterranean diet in general is a good model for most people to follow if they are trying to improve their health.
I’m not saying that everyone needs to give up meat but the typical American diet has way too much meat in it, too large of portions, too much unhealthy fat, and too much refined carbs. Most people would do well to eat more of a whole food plant based diet, with some lean meats in it if they want to.
Diabetics don’t need to be on a low carb diet. The type of carbs eaten are important though. I have known people who essentially reversed their type 2 diabetes through vegan diet and weight loss.3 -
Much of this discussion is way out of perspective. Anyone who tells me bacon is healthier than a banana... really?
First, If someone is a diabetic they need to figure out the foods that induce spikes. It could be that banana, it could be bacon. Often times the weight loss from a reduction of calories is the contributing factor. Not specifically just diet.
I highly doubt having a few slices of mango, berries or banana on occasion will cause diabetes. I also do not think having a processed sweet or even fried meat once in a blue moon will pose a threat. Lets be real here. Moderation, less intake, proper balance and activity is health promoting. Keto is not meant for long term. Low carb is fine, low fat ifs fine if it is making you healthier.
Eat less, move more, be happy and base your diet on whole foods. It is not rocket science.
First, why would you compare a banana to bacon? If anyone was going to make a pedantic argument of animal based verse plant based foods, they would argue a steak or fish vs a banana. Why? Both are whole food sources. Second, bacon isn't causing insulin to spike. Bacon is almost all fat. Fat doesn't really cause an insulin spike. A banana would. Its pretty high in carbs.So if you are going to try to make an argument, use something realistic.
And show me the data on keto not being good long term. I'd love to see it.
Overall, i agree with what you are saying, but you're semantics are off.
Ok banana to bacon may have been wrong articulation on my point. I have had custmers say things very much like that I just get fustrated because I work in a health food store and the misinformation is horrible to watch
I would be happy to get science on keto long term possible side affects. I'm at wrk so hold on til tonight😉
I'll hold. I will be interested in any data because i have yet to see a study on the data. Also, i think people over generalizate what Keto can or cannot be. Just like vegan, there is a huge variation on how to implement it. When i am Keto, i eat avocado almost daily, low gi berries, lean meats, fatty fish, and low fat dairy. I add fats thru whole eggs, nuts, seeds and avocado oil. I rarely eat processed meats. Most of my meats are black angus or grass fed.
You are wiser tan general public and it is refreshing to have civil exchange on MFP 👏👏 There is a distinction between plant based and vegan- both vary extensively! It is unfortunate some give the whole vegan community in a certain catigory-
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Fat has more calories per gram than carbs do. It is much easier to exceed a calorie budget eating an equivalent amount of grams of fat as carbs. I see many overweight patients in my practice that eat way too much fat. Of course some also got fat eating too many refined carbs. I have also seen patients have heart attacks and develop gallstones after switching to the keto diet, which is popular now.
I’m not saying the keto diet doesn’t have any benefits to some people and apparently there are different ways to eat on keto, but generally speaking it is not healthy for most as most get too little fiber and too much saturated fat on this diet.5 -
Wrong. 100%. Who told you this nonsense?
When WE docs want to fatten mice in the lab we give them CARBS. They get super fat. With huge fatty livers. The mice that are fed FAT don't get fat. I did this in medical school in the early 1980s. Pathophysiology lab.
And when you eat paté you're eating a duck's fatty liver. How did the poor duck get fatty liver? It was force-fed CARBS.
"Something the docs and dieticians don't tell you is that when they want to induce diabetes in laboratory mice, they are fed extremely high fat diet. Not carbs. Not sugar. FAT. So your doctor is steering you in a good direction. There are also some "vegan meal plans" on the web that you can mix and match to your liking and to give you some more ideas. My dear husband went vegan with me and has loved every day of it. You can make good vegan recipes that fit in your normal food budget. Good luck."
You are comparing humans to force feed mice? Have you ever looked at humans?
Let me edit to expand.
Animal models are a precursor to study a specific topic. They help is determine if there is justification to investigate further.
ETA: are you now for or against carbs? Your post are not consistent.8
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