Doctor wants me to try low fat plant based diet. Very difficult, need resources.

124

Replies

  • Diatonic12
    Diatonic12 Posts: 32,344 Member
    The GP sounds like a chiropractor or food life coach.

    If you'd expressed "Everyone is different. I do take issue with my GP thinking there is a one size fits all diet that will fix everybody. Endocrinologist says "veganism works for some diabetics... but not you." Reason is the lazy time delay pancreas"...

    from the get-go it would've cleared many areas up.
  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,772 Member
    edited May 2021
    psuLemon wrote: »
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    Much of this discussion is way out of perspective. Anyone who tells me bacon is healthier than a banana... really?
    First, If someone is a diabetic they need to figure out the foods that induce spikes. It could be that banana, it could be bacon. Often times the weight loss from a reduction of calories is the contributing factor. Not specifically just diet.
    I highly doubt having a few slices of mango, berries or banana on occasion will cause diabetes. I also do not think having a processed sweet or even fried meat once in a blue moon will pose a threat. Lets be real here. Moderation, less intake, proper balance and activity is health promoting. Keto is not meant for long term. Low carb is fine, low fat ifs fine if it is making you healthier.
    Eat less, move more, be happy and base your diet on whole foods. It is not rocket science.

    First, why would you compare a banana to bacon? If anyone was going to make a pedantic argument of animal based verse plant based foods, they would argue a steak or fish vs a banana. Why? Both are whole food sources. Second, bacon isn't causing insulin to spike. Bacon is almost all fat. Fat doesn't really cause an insulin spike. A banana would. Its pretty high in carbs.So if you are going to try to make an argument, use something realistic.

    And show me the data on keto not being good long term. I'd love to see it.

    Overall, i agree with what you are saying, but you're semantics are off.

    Ok banana to bacon may have been wrong articulation on my point. I have had custmers say things very much like that I just get fustrated because I work in a health food store and the misinformation is horrible to watch
    I would be happy to get science on keto long term possible side affects. I'm at wrk so hold on til tonight😉
  • nooshi713
    nooshi713 Posts: 4,877 Member
    I am an ER PA and work with a lot of cardiologists. They all promote a plant based diet. Most are vegetarian. I have a lot of diabetic patients come to the ER too so have experience with this. Aside, I have been to Greece and Costa Rica and always lost weight on vacations there. The food was very healthy. I’m not diabetic but do think the Mediterranean diet in general is a good model for most people to follow if they are trying to improve their health.

    I’m not saying that everyone needs to give up meat but the typical American diet has way too much meat in it, too large of portions, too much unhealthy fat, and too much refined carbs. Most people would do well to eat more of a whole food plant based diet, with some lean meats in it if they want to.

    Diabetics don’t need to be on a low carb diet. The type of carbs eaten are important though. I have known people who essentially reversed their type 2 diabetes through vegan diet and weight loss.
  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,772 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    Much of this discussion is way out of perspective. Anyone who tells me bacon is healthier than a banana... really?
    First, If someone is a diabetic they need to figure out the foods that induce spikes. It could be that banana, it could be bacon. Often times the weight loss from a reduction of calories is the contributing factor. Not specifically just diet.
    I highly doubt having a few slices of mango, berries or banana on occasion will cause diabetes. I also do not think having a processed sweet or even fried meat once in a blue moon will pose a threat. Lets be real here. Moderation, less intake, proper balance and activity is health promoting. Keto is not meant for long term. Low carb is fine, low fat ifs fine if it is making you healthier.
    Eat less, move more, be happy and base your diet on whole foods. It is not rocket science.

    First, why would you compare a banana to bacon? If anyone was going to make a pedantic argument of animal based verse plant based foods, they would argue a steak or fish vs a banana. Why? Both are whole food sources. Second, bacon isn't causing insulin to spike. Bacon is almost all fat. Fat doesn't really cause an insulin spike. A banana would. Its pretty high in carbs.So if you are going to try to make an argument, use something realistic.

    And show me the data on keto not being good long term. I'd love to see it.

    Overall, i agree with what you are saying, but you're semantics are off.

    Ok banana to bacon may have been wrong articulation on my point. I have had custmers say things very much like that I just get fustrated because I work in a health food store and the misinformation is horrible to watch
    I would be happy to get science on keto long term possible side affects. I'm at wrk so hold on til tonight😉

    I'll hold. I will be interested in any data because i have yet to see a study on the data. Also, i think people over generalizate what Keto can or cannot be. Just like vegan, there is a huge variation on how to implement it. When i am Keto, i eat avocado almost daily, low gi berries, lean meats, fatty fish, and low fat dairy. I add fats thru whole eggs, nuts, seeds and avocado oil. I rarely eat processed meats. Most of my meats are black angus or grass fed.

    You are wiser tan general public and it is refreshing to have civil exchange on MFP 👏👏 There is a distinction between plant based and vegan- both vary extensively! It is unfortunate some give the whole vegan community in a certain catigory-
  • Unknown
    edited May 2021
    This content has been removed.
  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,772 Member
    There are keto plant based plans btw and low carb.
  • wilson10102018
    wilson10102018 Posts: 1,306 Member
    I can understand a person's reluctance to eat food that was once a living creature. It is a philosophical or ethical choice. But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
  • meeppeepneep
    meeppeepneep Posts: 56 Member
    edited May 2021
    Run away. Forks over knives is quackery of the worst kind. Go see a registered dietician and take their advice. That goes double if you are going vegan, because it's easy to not get all nutrients you need.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=ID_2ymmvW5w
  • southkonahi
    southkonahi Posts: 137 Member
    But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
    One reason, is that NOT ALL MEDICAL DOCTORS AGREE that "other than plant based is healthier". There are many opinions by the medical profession on most (if not all) medical issues, and diet is one of them.

  • wilson10102018
    wilson10102018 Posts: 1,306 Member
    But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
    One reason, is that NOT ALL MEDICAL DOCTORS AGREE that "other than plant based is healthier". There are many opinions by the medical profession on most (if not all) medical issues, and diet is one of them.

    Diet is certainly important for good health. But a medical doctor who directs his patient to confine himself to a "plant based diet" is a quack.
  • Diatonic12
    Diatonic12 Posts: 32,344 Member
    edited May 2021
    Second verse same as the first. I said the same thing back in 2020, I don't know of one licensed physician who would recommend Forks Over Knives for T2. If they are indeed an actual physician then you shouldn't be taking any advice other than medical and if you don't trust that advice, then get yourself a 2nd or 3rd opinion from another medical professional. No one here can diagnose your condition.
  • gothchiq
    gothchiq Posts: 4,590 Member
    Folks, in case I wasn't clear, I'm seeing an endocrinologist and following her treatment plan. There is a dietitian integrated in the endocrinology practice.

    At the outset, I was looking for ways to manage a vegan diet because I thought I was supposed to do that but had no experience with it.

    Having discovered that such a diet is inappropriate for me, and having uncovered a load of conflicts of interest in the proponents of veganism that my GP follows, the conversation changed. OK? Not looking for a diagnosis on MFP. I already have one.
  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,772 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
    One reason, is that NOT ALL MEDICAL DOCTORS AGREE that "other than plant based is healthier". There are many opinions by the medical profession on most (if not all) medical issues, and diet is one of them.

    Diet is certainly important for good health. But a medical doctor who directs his patient to confine himself to a "plant based diet" is a quack.

    I've been vegetarian for 46+ years, and agree with the above, though I'd maybe put it a little more mildly. (The doctor's other medical advice may be sound . . . ?)

    A doctor who says people *must* eat a fully planted based diet for best health - in the absence of some very unusual medical condition, anyway - is pushing philosophy, not medical knowledge.

    The average person would be better off, health-wise, IMO, if s/he ate more veggies and fruits, because (in the US anyway) the average person eats pitifully few . . . surveys suggest it's well below the semi-standard "5 servings daily" recommendation, and some nutritional authorities are now suggesting that 5 is lower than optimal. Through most of millennia of human history, the majority of human societies have consumed at least some animal-source foods. It seems very unlikely to me that natural selection left us in a state where we get optimum health only by omitting them. (In fact, as observed earlier in the thread, it's normally required to supplement some nutrients when eating fully plant-based.)

    A fully plant based diet can be a fine thing, and can be healthful and nutritious. There are many reasons to adopt such a way of eating, but for the average person the claim that it will result in improved health versus any possible omnivorous diet . . . I think that's nonsense. A doctor who says otherwise is IMO providing scientifically inaccurate nutritional advice. (I'd say the same about a doctor who said people *must* eat meat for good health, too, at least at this stage of scientific understanding.)

    Forks Over Knives is an advocacy site - pretty openly and honestly so, and not the most absurdly unscientific example of the type (there are some doozies). For plant-based nutritional advice, though, I'd go with https://veganhealth.org/.

    I think the misleading advocacy sites mis-state the valid case(s) for plant-based eating, make plant-based eaters look bad, and ultimately undermine their own goals by doing so. If they can only make converts by cherry picking studies or distorting conclusions, that's not a sign of integrity or intelligence.

    That is an excellent link. 👏I thank you fror posting.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    Run away. Forks over knives is quackery of the worst kind. Go see a registered dietician and take their advice. That goes double if you are going vegan, because it's easy to not get all nutrients you need.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=ID_2ymmvW5w

    If you're talking about OP's specific circumstance, I would agree (although it sounds like she's got it all worked out now). If you're talking about the average person: It's really not that hard. I'm almost fifteen years in, have never seen an RD, and my annual blood tests are fine. Just visit an evidence-based resource like veganhealth.org and you'll get the information you need to plan your diet.

  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,772 Member
    I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
    Same with any restriction as a whole
  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,772 Member
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
    Same with any restriction as a whole

    I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.

    I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.

    Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
    Same with any restriction as a whole

    I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.

    I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.

    Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.

    I think at least part of it is having a stable population to study. Although lots of people try keto for weight management, I'm not sure there is a large group of people who stay on it long-term to provide the basis for the type of evidence that would be useful for this conversation.

    (Someone else may have the information on many people are doing keto long-term for weight management, but I've never found an estimate).
  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,772 Member
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
    Same with any restriction as a whole

    I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.

    I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.

    Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.

    I think at least part of it is having a stable population to study. Although lots of people try keto for weight management, I'm not sure there is a large group of people who stay on it long-term to provide the basis for the type of evidence that would be useful for this conversation.

    (Someone else may have the information on many people are doing keto long-term for weight management, but I've never found an estimate).

    I go on Pub Med, NIH, etc. Science Direct.