Doctor wants me to try low fat plant based diet. Very difficult, need resources.
gothchiq
Posts: 4,590 Member
I'm type 2 diabetic. Used to be prediabetic, but it got worse. The metformin stopped working so I went back to the doctor and she wants me to try 30 days of a vegan low fat diet. I thought it wouldn't be hard to find resources online but boy was I wrong! There are too many criteria to meet at once. Low fat and vegan and diabetic friendly and not hideously expensive, all at the same time. Ugh! She recommends this program: https://www.forksoverknives.com/ Well.... I looked at it, and I find all their stuff to be very expensive and impractical. I live on a tight budget and can't get esoteric ingredients or do fancy recipes.
I figured I can't be the only person to be going through this, and maybe people who have been doing plant based for a while could point me to some resources that are practical for daily cooking and living in this situation. Sites, books, general principles, any advice for making this diet work would be welcome. After 30 days, we check my glucose tolerance again and see if this works like she thinks it will. I would rather do low carb, but she thinks that won't work for the long term. I am skeptical... but I have to try this vegan diet out and put it to the test.
I figured I can't be the only person to be going through this, and maybe people who have been doing plant based for a while could point me to some resources that are practical for daily cooking and living in this situation. Sites, books, general principles, any advice for making this diet work would be welcome. After 30 days, we check my glucose tolerance again and see if this works like she thinks it will. I would rather do low carb, but she thinks that won't work for the long term. I am skeptical... but I have to try this vegan diet out and put it to the test.
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Replies
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I’m not sure what aspect you’re finding expensive, esoteric or difficult with the principles behind the plan you’ve been asked to follow?
Things like brown rice, potatoes, dried beans and fruit and vegetables are some of the cheapest foods and certainly not ‘exotic’ or hard to source. Sounds like normal life to me!
I’m guessing it’s more of a mental struggle if this is very far from your normal way of eating?
Maybe if you give us some examples of what you normally eat we’d be able to help by ‘converting’ your meals to things that would better ‘fit’ your changing needs?21 -
Plant based doesn’t have to be expensive or difficult. Beans, rice, oats, sweet potatoes. etc are cheaper than meat and other animal products, generally speaking. You can find a lot of recipes on Pinterest.
Diabetics don’t necessarily have to avoid carbs, just simple ones in excess. Some carbs like oatmeal or berries don’t raise blood glucose much.7 -
Can the doctor not refer you to a Dietician? They tend to know more about diets than Family Doctors.
It seems counter-intuitive that she would make you eat vegan, when so many folks go low-carb or keto for diabetes control.20 -
Vegan is super cheap if you know how to shop. It’s also fun growing your own herbs and veggies if you want.5
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To explain, the hard part is making anything like a palatable and nutritionally sound recipe as opposed to eating unadorned potatoes, beans, etc baked, boiled or steamed with no fats. Every way that I know to make a pleasant vegetable dish includes some kind of fat, like stir frying. Added fats are apparently verboten, even healthy ones like olive oil. The theory she's following is a newer one stating that the fats prevent insulin from carrying glucose into the cells for energy so that it floats around in the blood instead. So the program she recommends with recipes that purport to meet all the nutritional needs (protein, iron, etc) while also following this strict regimen calls for expensive ingredients that are hard to get. I don't think my insurance plan pays for dietitians, but I'll check again in case it's changed. I don't have the money to pay their fees on my own. The budget friendly non-weird vegan recipes and books that I could find online all called for added fats and/or sugars in some form. Books that purport to be "for diabetics" are putting dried fruits into carby foods! Dried fruit is a sugar bomb.
What I normally eat is stuff like plain Greek yogurt, eggs, nuts, lean meats, nonstarchy vegetables that are either steamed, roasted, or stir fried, and lower sugar fruits. I avoid grains of all sorts right now because they make my blood sugar go up high.5 -
To explain, the hard part is making anything like a palatable and nutritionally sound recipe as opposed to eating unadorned potatoes, beans, etc baked, boiled or steamed with no fats. Every way that I know to make a pleasant vegetable dish includes some kind of fat, like stir frying. Added fats are apparently verboten, even healthy ones like olive oil. The theory she's following is a newer one stating that the fats prevent insulin from carrying glucose into the cells for energy so that it floats around in the blood instead. So the program she recommends with recipes that purport to meet all the nutritional needs (protein, iron, etc) while also following this strict regimen calls for expensive ingredients that are hard to get. I don't think my insurance plan pays for dietitians, but I'll check again in case it's changed. I don't have the money to pay their fees on my own. The budget friendly non-weird vegan recipes and books that I could find online all called for added fats and/or sugars in some form. Books that purport to be "for diabetics" are putting dried fruits into carby foods! Dried fruit is a sugar bomb.
What I normally eat is stuff like plain Greek yogurt, eggs, nuts, lean meats, nonstarchy vegetables that are either steamed, roasted, or stir fried, and lower sugar fruits. I avoid grains of all sorts right now because they make my blood sugar go up high.
The whole first paragraph is why a whole food, plant based diet works. Its lowers the ED, increases fiber, eliminates many hyper processed/ hyperpalitable foods. There is evidence that a high carb/ very low fat, diet helps reverse diabetes 2. Type 2 is very sensitive to caloric intake. Weight loss increases insulin sensitivity in most people, not all, but most. If you want to give it a try, keep track of bs as you go. If A1C gets elevated even as you lose weight, just go back to what you were doing. Jmho. I would love to see your results.9 -
The most expensive thing on a WFPB diet is dairy. Get yourself a nutmilk bag (seven bucks on Walmart.com) to begin with and some containers for plant milk and make your own. It's not hard at all. Oat milk is very cheap to make yourself. I make homemade soy milk but that's more difficult because you have to heat soy milk, but it's also very cheap and more protein.
Plus, homemade nutmilks have no added fat. The processed ones add a ton of vegetable oils. You'll both save money and add in no oil.
Costco is fantastic for cheap organic quinoa. Quinoa is a very important part of my diet when I eat meatless -- I'm not vegan but we try to eat WFPB at least two or three times a week. I could go vegan but my wife would never do it. Kroger/Fry's has organic chick peas for like a dollar a can. Get them in four packs when you can.
I'm not a huge fan of the Plants over Knives recipes but I love the Oh She Glows Cookbook (the original one). All vegan and gluten free recipes. Very flavorful too.
https://www.ambitiouskitchen.com/crunchy-cashew-thai-quinoa-salad-with-ginger-peanut-dressing/
This is one of my favorite recipes. If something has oil, you can replace with chia seed water (blend water and chia seeds and let it sit -- great oil replacer!). My daughter was here for months during Covid-19. She doesn't eat oil. I used a ton of Chia water for us while she was here! She's a vegetarian.
Also, check it out with your doc, but I know a lot of Holistic docs are moving from Metformin to Berberine -- it's a supplement (root derived I'm pretty sure) that is completely natural, does what Metformin does with no side effects. It's also fantastic for Fibromyalgia.
Homemade Falafels are super easy too. I make them using dry chickpeas I order off of Nuts.com (they have fantastic dried beans). Great protein source. I'm having some of them next week.
Sorry -- I keep editing -- I cook nearly every day, so if you have questions, let me know. My wife is allergic to cow dairy and I'm Celiac (really hard to find processed foods we can eat). But you will find cooking from scratch hardest. If you have a food processor and a mandoline, that will help you tremendously. I love my food processor. Chopped salads are so easy with it.
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I poach a lot of my veggies in spices and dry fry my tofu etc in a non-stick pan. I rarely eat anything fried as I’m not a fan of oily food. Nutritional yeast is the best for adding flavour without fat. Vegan requires you to get inventive and it’s loads of fun creating or following new recipes. Definitely look up vegan recipe books. Your idea of vegan food is that of many people unfamiliar with how it works. Research and joining forums for new vegans or plant-based eaters will be beneficial.5
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I should have noted that I've already lost the excess weight, but my blood sugar has not been helped by it. I weigh 118 pounds, but the moment I eat a carb (such as 1/3 cup old fashioned oats) my sugar skyrockets. I have a test scheduled to see if I still produce enough insulin, which is a requirement for going forward with this vegan diet.8
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I should have noted that I've already lost the excess weight, but my blood sugar has not been helped by it. I weigh 118 pounds, but the moment I eat a carb (such as 1/3 cup old fashioned oats) my sugar skyrockets. I have a test scheduled to see if I still produce enough insulin, which is a requirement for going forward with this vegan diet.
Fair enough. So, do you "lift"?1 -
Yes, I lift. But it's light weight high reps because I'm arthritic. Also body weight exercises and low impact cardio.0
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Engine2 has some starter plan that's similar to FoK, and same with NoMeatAthlete, I believe. I'd look for whatever free tips there are on their sites.
My understanding is that the basic plan is whole grain + beans + veg for the standard meal template (with potatoes or sweet potatoes being substitutable for grains). I once (many years ago) read an Ornish cookbook, and as I recall he recommended things like sauteeing in some vegetable stock vs. oil. Steaming is a good way to cook veg that doesn't require oil, and of course if you incorporate them into a stew or soup no oil is needed. Cashews are a fabulous way to make things creamy without dairy, and tahini is a great condiment (obv both of those are high fat, but in small amounts you should be able to use them within a low fat diet, I think).
I'd experiment with other taste enhancers like herbs, vinegars, and spices (and additions like chiles and peppers if you like hot).
None of this should be expensive -- I'd save money eating that way. I agree it can take a bit more work to prevent blandness, which is one reason I tend to try stuff like this for a period of time (like Lent) and then go back, but if you are trying it for your health for 30 days, try to think of it as a way to broader your cooking repertoire.5 -
One of my favorite vegan cookbooks happens to be low fat - it's called "Appetite for Reduction" by Isa Chandra Moskowitz. While not explicitly WFPB, she happens to stick pretty close to common definitions of WFs. There is limited oil in some of the recipes, but I think you could easily omit it in many cases (for example, by "sauteing" vegetables in some vegetable stock). I'm not even on a low fat diet, but I cook out of the book all the time because the recipes are good and fit easily into my calorie goals. There also isn't a lot of dried fruit or "weird" ingredients (by my standard anyway).
Another cookbook I've used in the past is the Moosewood Low Fat cookbook. It isn't PB (it's pescatarian), but there are a lot of recipes in it that are PB or can be adapted to be so. That cookbook sometimes calls for some "ethnic" ingredients like wonton wrappers and stuff like that, but it's pretty normal. It was a big help for me when I began cooking with plants because it helped me figure out how to extract tons of flavors without adding tons of fat to recipes. (Note: all the other Moosewood cookbooks I've seen have been pretty high fat, so I would only recommend this particular one in your case).
I personally haven't been impressed by any of the Forks over Knives recipes that I've tried -- everything is a bit bland to me.
Good luck!4 -
@janejellyroll - I found the same thing about FoK. But I do love that Maple Tahini Salad in the book. That's the one recipe I did love.
OP - It's a chopped salad with (I think) Kale, Chickpeas, Red Cabbage, Carrots and Red Pepper -- but you can do it with really anything. And from what I've read, Maple Syrup is one of the safest sweeteners for diabetics. It's just Tahini, Water, Maple Syrup and fresh lemon juice. So basic but delicious. I assume you could use Stevia instead of Maple Syrup if that's a concern.
This is a similar recipe. Minimalist Baker also is a great source. She cooks very simple ingredients that are cheap.
https://minimalistbaker.com/make-tahini-dressing/3 -
Have other reasons than being overweight be ruled out for your diabetes? A pancreas condition maybe?4
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Have you been asked to do this by a general family doc or endocrinologist? Unless a GP has done specific and recent diabetes education I'd feel somewhat concerned that they're giving you advice as a 'let's see' 'experiment' of their own, instead of adhering to current evidence-based clinical guidelines. Personally I'd want to a referral to endocrinology.9
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I would make sure to talk to an up-to-date and registered dietician. The extreme low-fat advice for a 115 pound Type II diabetic just seems a bit out of date to me. Currently, the American Diabetes Association recommends diabetics get 20% to 35% of their daily calories from healthy fats. Most articles I find about using low-fat as a diabetes treatment seem to be 15 years old or so. The knowledge about the importance of fat in the human diet has advanced a good deal since then.12
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My insurance won't pay for a dietitian. I went to an endocrinologist at the outset but all she did was go over the basics that I already knew then send me back to my regular doctor. I may have to ask for another referral.5
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My insurance won't pay for a dietitian. I went to an endocrinologist at the outset but all she did was go over the basics that I already knew then send me back to my regular doctor. I may have to ask for another referral.
Would you be able to get a second opinion? I only ask because, having some type 2 diabetics in the family, your doctor's recommended diet for you is not what they're being recommended. In fact, it's kind of the opposite. They're being told to try out a medically compliant ketogenic diet (so high fat, low carb) as something to help for those who may have insulin resistance.
My vague layman's understanding of what they'd said is that with a keto diet, the body shifts from carb consumption for energy to fat consumption for energy (hence the higher fat), which can supposedly be a good thing for folks who may be insulin resistant or have diabetes.
Like Heidicooks... said, a low fat diet seems like really outdated advice, potentially. :-(5 -
Some books worth reading are Engine 9, How Not to Die, No Meat Athlete, and Eat to Live. This is a link to a book, Plant Based on a Budget
https://salamanderfamily.store/product/plant-based-on-a-budget-delicious-vegan-recipes-for-under-30-a-cooking-diets/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwo6D4BRDgARIsAA6uN1_0UcKJ236vM6m8FlMqx8sgOu9vMV4R13yVipwvBQqPSCV0WDyOOjMaAqfnEALw_wcB
You may want to research "Plant Based" or " Vegan" for diabetes in Google. Just be aware of author, credentials and sources to avoid fad type books. There are also communities that are very sound, and medically backed. Food Revolution Network is worth looking into.
A wholefood plant based diet can also be low carb,moderate healthy fat. Adding things like hemp, seeds, avocado, olives( not just the oil but whole olive) and macadamia all in moderation, tempeh, nut butters in moderation. Low fat doesn't mean no fat, we need all the macronutrientss in our diet( even keto)
If strait vegan is taking too much out of you, perhaps adding in fish, or researching a Mediterranean diet.
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janejellyroll wrote: »One of my favorite vegan cookbooks happens to be low fat - it's called "Appetite for Reduction" by Isa Chandra Moskowitz. While not explicitly WFPB, she happens to stick pretty close to common definitions of WFs. There is limited oil in some of the recipes, but I think you could easily omit it in many cases (for example, by "sauteing" vegetables in some vegetable stock). I'm not even on a low fat diet, but I cook out of the book all the time because the recipes are good and fit easily into my calorie goals. There also isn't a lot of dried fruit or "weird" ingredients (by my standard anyway).
Another cookbook I've used in the past is the Moosewood Low Fat cookbook. It isn't PB (it's pescatarian), but there are a lot of recipes in it that are PB or can be adapted to be so. That cookbook sometimes calls for some "ethnic" ingredients like wonton wrappers and stuff like that, but it's pretty normal. It was a big help for me when I began cooking with plants because it helped me figure out how to extract tons of flavors without adding tons of fat to recipes. (Note: all the other Moosewood cookbooks I've seen have been pretty high fat, so I would only recommend this particular one in your case).
I personally haven't been impressed by any of the Forks over Knives recipes that I've tried -- everything is a bit bland to me.
Good luck!
The first author also wrote Veganomicon (I think), don't know about low fat...but plant based.
Moosewood books are pretty good...and there are always ways to cut fat. Low Fat Favorites is one of my favorites. A lot of times, I just cut the fat in half. Some of the recipes are a bit complicated but most are really good. Sweet potato and black bean burritos are awesome...low fat and it says 6-8 servings but I end up with 12 servings...freezes well.
A previous post referenced Ornish's recommendation to sub broth for fat in sauteeing works. The only thing I don't like about Ornish is how much work his recipes take...I don't have that kind of time...
My recommendation every time is to check out your local library. You can check out cookbooks and see what you like, what works for you. And if you can't find one you like, you can inter-library loan (in the sataes, anyway).3 -
@melaniedscott - I found Vegan Richa to be the same way. Love her recipes but they are a LOT of work. To me, not worth that much effort. Though, it seems her blogs and Facebook recipes are easier than the cookbooks ones, so maybe she's realizing people just don't have that much time to cook vegan.
I thought of two more of my favorites that are relatively easy and delicious.
https://minimalistbaker.com/sweet-potato-chickpea-buddha-bowl/
This Indian Frankie Recipe is to die for. LOVE IT! Now, I'm Celiac again and the wife is cow dairy free but I make it with GF Wraps and use a good quality DF Yogurt for the sauce and it's delicious.
https://www.feastingathome.com/indian-frankie-recipe/3 -
Perhaps https://drmcdougall.com/might offer some good resources and info.
https://drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/common-health-problems/diabetes-adult-onset-and-juvenile/
And here are some recipes. https://drmcdougall.com/health/education/recipes/mcdougall-recipes/
They r mostly very simple. and if one has some odd or expensive or hard to find ingredient, you could pick a Different recipe.
It is true that if u begin preparing food with far less fats/oils, it will taste different, and probably feel different in your mouth. But taste buds can adjust. And if your health markers improve from this change recommended by your doctor, maybe u might be interested in pursuing it.4 -
Thank you everyone. I really appreciate all the links and your commentary of what these cookbooks are like. I'm more than willing to deal with stuff I don't like as much in order to manage the diabetes. The challenge is just the finding of workable recipes that don't claim to be "for diabetics" and then include sugars, and the like. I was also thinking that maybe if I adapted some Indian vegetarian recipes, skip the ghee and use almond milk that I make rather than dairy, it could be good and properly nutritious. It would probably work out better in the long run to adapt a vegetarian cuisine that evolved culturally than to try to force something with hard to find or expensive ingredients, or time consuming techniques. I like Indian food, after all, and so does my husband.
I was laughing in disbelief at the $250 for the forks over knives cooking course! I was like... well ain't this a cash grab! It made me somewhat skeptical of their whole program. Take a bunch of desperate diabetics and wring them for money. Such ethical, many legit. lol
Anyway, I have my insulin check scheduled for Tuesday. Then the doctor is out of town for a week and a half, blah. I'll be low carbing until she gets back and then we can proceed according to what my insulin levels look like. I will probably get an injectable medication as I'm allergic to the glycols present in most pills.10 -
I take back what I said about Ornish. I went back and looked at the cookbook again. The recipies aren't THAT bad in terms of ingredients and time. The problem is that my husband wouldn't eat 75% of them...he is so picky! Doesn't like soup (many soups in Ornish). Doesn't like eggplant, zucchini, squash or okra (unless fried), which, of course, figure prominently in the Ornish recipies...
A couple things that might be helpul: in baking, you can sub an equal amount of applesauce for fat. I usually go 50/50 but I've replaced all and it works okay. I've heard you can do the same thing with pumpkin puree and banana (no motivation to try either, hate bananas and, well, I'm lazy...pumpkin seems like work when you can buy unsweetened apples sauce in a jar and it keeps really well...and Ornish recommends purne puree (that might have unintended results!).
You can also replace eggs with silken tofu. I think the ratio is 1/4 cup tofu to each egg. Just made a vegan cupcake recipie a couple days ago and I think the egg replacer was to mix a little apple cider vinegar with plant milk (said soy or oat? but I used almond) and 2 tbs of corn starch. The cupcakes were amazing...Veganomicon!
I'd probably go for coconut milk in the indian rather that almond...it has more fat and calories but it is more authentic...cutting out all fat seems...unsustainable...you could try coconut oil? I tend to be of the mind that fat is fat is fat but coconut oil is touted for...well, all sorts of stuff and it does act a lot like ghee...maybe use smaller amounts. I've found I can generally get away with using a couple tablespoons instead of 1/4 cup in cooking (NOT baking) or using cooking spray.
Or...recently bought some really high quality non-stick pans BergHOFF EC Essentials...they require none. Was less than 100% convinced I wasn't being taken for a ride when I bought them...but they are wonderful! Worth every penny...3 -
I am not wild about squash either, but this is about me dodging the Grim Reaper, not about my favorite foods, so I will just have to adapt. Soup is fine with me. I would have to test pumpkin versus applesauce in my blood sugar readings to make the best choice. I like pumpkin curry soup and could see myself preferring pumpkin. I don't see me baking much at all because flours, even whole wheat, send my sugar stratospheric. I may end up purchasing Ezekiel bread or something like that, sprouted grain stuff etc. What I understand that the doctor expects of me is to accept oils that are present in natural foods, such as avocadoes and nuts, but to not cook with oils that have been extracted from the vegetables. It sounds like a lot of poaching will be going on. I contacted a friend who is on a medical vegan diet and she sent me a bunch of links to vegan and low fat Indian and Mexican recipes which I would definitely prefer over "forks over knives" recipes.
I don't mind people hitting the disagree button as we are all free to think as we wish, but it doesn't really offer any feedback, either. Disagree with eating vegan, disagree with low fat, or disagree that the Forks over Knives cooking course is a cash grab, or... well, I don't know. LOL.7 -
I know you’re getting lots of links and helpful info here, but I wanted to encourage you to call your insurance company and/or really deep read your SPD. Nutrition counseling by a registered dietician is nearly always covered for diabetics. There may be visitation limits and/or referral requirements, but the service is considered medically necessary for conditions where diet has a significant effect on disease management (eg-diabetes).
Looking up nutrition or dietician or something may not make that clear (as it is not typically covered in the absence of a specific disease/condition).
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melaniedscott wrote: »I take back what I said about Ornish. I went back and looked at the cookbook again. The recipies aren't THAT bad in terms of ingredients and time. The problem is that my husband wouldn't eat 75% of them...he is so picky! Doesn't like soup (many soups in Ornish). Doesn't like eggplant, zucchini, squash or okra (unless fried), which, of course, figure prominently in the Ornish recipies...
Yeah, I recall thinking they were okay (I agree with those who think FoK is largely bland, and I don't think they forward taste at all). I did think they were more extreme than I ended up wanting, but I also would have felt differently if trying it for health.
I haven't tried this site, but it looks like you might want to check it out: https://blog.fatfreevegan.com/
I also agree with the recommendation of Appetite for Reduction, even though weight loss is not your goal.1 -
I've messaged the insurance company about nutrition counseling for diabetics and await a reply. They used to cover 4 visits a year for any reason, but that changed.4
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I would like to find a good vegan/vegetarian cookbook, but can't have soy, chickpeas, seeds or peanuts. A lot of the recipes rely heavily on these restricted foods. Sorry OP, I'm not trying to hijack your thread. If you can find a cookbook that fits your plan, maybe that will allow you to play with the seasoning and your pallet will also adjust over a few weeks of eating better/limiting the bad fats. So, anyone have additional realistic cookbooks to start from?Some books worth reading are Engine 9, How Not to Die, No Meat Athlete, and Eat to Live. This is a link to a book, Plant Based on a Budget
https://salamanderfamily.store/product/plant-based-on-a-budget-delicious-vegan-recipes-for-under-30-a-cooking-diets/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwo6D4BRDgARIsAA6uN1_0UcKJ236vM6m8FlMqx8sgOu9vMV4R13yVipwvBQqPSCV0WDyOOjMaAqfnEALw_wcB
You may want to research "Plant Based" or " Vegan" for diabetes in Google. Just be aware of author, credentials and sources to avoid fad type books. There are also communities that are very sound, and medically backed. Food Revolution Network is worth looking into.
A wholefood plant based diet can also be low carb,moderate healthy fat. Adding things like hemp, seeds, avocado, olives( not just the oil but whole olive) and macadamia all in moderation, tempeh, nut butters in moderation. Low fat doesn't mean no fat, we need all the macronutrientss in our diet( even keto)
If strait vegan is taking too much out of you, perhaps adding in fish, or researching a Mediterranean diet.
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