Doctor wants me to try low fat plant based diet. Very difficult, need resources.
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Fat has more calories per gram than carbs do. It is much easier to exceed a calorie budget eating an equivalent amount of grams of fat as carbs. I see many overweight patients in my practice that eat way too much fat. Of course some also got fat eating too many refined carbs. I have also seen patients have heart attacks and develop gallstones after switching to the keto diet, which is popular now.
I’m not saying the keto diet doesn’t have any benefits to some people and apparently there are different ways to eat on keto, but generally speaking it is not healthy for most as most get too little fiber and too much saturated fat on this diet.
There definitely are healthy and unhealthy ways to eat keto, just like there are healthy and unhealthy ways to be vegan/plant based. Actually, there are healthy and unhealthy ways to eat every type of diet out there.12 -
There are keto plant based plans btw and low carb.2
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Fat has more calories per gram than carbs do. It is much easier to exceed a calorie budget eating an equivalent amount of grams of fat as carbs. I see many overweight patients in my practice that eat way too much fat. Of course some also got fat eating too many refined carbs. I have also seen patients have heart attacks and develop gallstones after switching to the keto diet, which is popular now.
I’m not saying the keto diet doesn’t have any benefits to some people and apparently there are different ways to eat on keto, but generally speaking it is not healthy for most as most get too little fiber and too much saturated fat on this diet.
There definitely are healthy and unhealthy ways to eat keto, just like there are healthy and unhealthy ways to be vegan/plant based. Actually, there are healthy and unhealthy ways to eat every type of diet out there.
Yes I agree. I actually got overweight eating too much healthy food.5 -
Fat has more calories per gram than carbs do. It is much easier to exceed a calorie budget eating an equivalent amount of grams of fat as carbs. I see many overweight patients in my practice that eat way too much fat. Of course some also got fat eating too many refined carbs. I have also seen patients have heart attacks and develop gallstones after switching to the keto diet, which is popular now.
I’m not saying the keto diet doesn’t have any benefits to some people and apparently there are different ways to eat on keto, but generally speaking it is not healthy for most as most get too little fiber and too much saturated fat on this diet.
There definitely are healthy and unhealthy ways to eat keto, just like there are healthy and unhealthy ways to be vegan/plant based. Actually, there are healthy and unhealthy ways to eat every type of diet out there.
Yes I agree. I actually got overweight eating too much healthy food.
In general, the data i have seen suggest very little difference in metabolic health with any approach given weight loss is equal. So regardless of the spectrum a person falls in, it really doesn't matter. Ultimately compliance is the only thing that matter.8 -
I tried eating small amounts of the "acceptable" (complex) carbs, paired with protein, and my sugar still went sky high because of the insulin release delay I have going on. This is why I do low carb. I suppose that if I wished to be low carb and vegan at the same time, I could find a way, but I am not choosing to do this right now. Everyone has different needs; YMMV.
If I hadn't gone to see the endocrinologist I would probably still be blundering around making mistakes because there's no way I would have known about the "lazy" pancreas.5 -
I can understand a person's reluctance to eat food that was once a living creature. It is a philosophical or ethical choice. But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.4
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Run away. Forks over knives is quackery of the worst kind. Go see a registered dietician and take their advice. That goes double if you are going vegan, because it's easy to not get all nutrients you need.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ID_2ymmvW5w4 -
wilson10102018 wrote: »But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
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southkonahi wrote: »wilson10102018 wrote: »But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
Diet is certainly important for good health. But a medical doctor who directs his patient to confine himself to a "plant based diet" is a quack.4 -
Second verse same as the first. I said the same thing back in 2020, I don't know of one licensed physician who would recommend Forks Over Knives for T2. If they are indeed an actual physician then you shouldn't be taking any advice other than medical and if you don't trust that advice, then get yourself a 2nd or 3rd opinion from another medical professional. No one here can diagnose your condition.3
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wilson10102018 wrote: »southkonahi wrote: »wilson10102018 wrote: »But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
Diet is certainly important for good health. But a medical doctor who directs his patient to confine himself to a "plant based diet" is a quack.
I've been vegetarian for 46+ years, and agree with the above, though I'd maybe put it a little more mildly. (The doctor's other medical advice may be sound . . . ?)
A doctor who says people *must* eat a fully planted based diet for best health - in the absence of some very unusual medical condition, anyway - is pushing philosophy, not medical knowledge.
The average person would be better off, health-wise, IMO, if s/he ate more veggies and fruits, because (in the US anyway) the average person eats pitifully few . . . surveys suggest it's well below the semi-standard "5 servings daily" recommendation, and some nutritional authorities are now suggesting that 5 is lower than optimal. Through most of millennia of human history, the majority of human societies have consumed at least some animal-source foods. It seems very unlikely to me that natural selection left us in a state where we get optimum health only by omitting them. (In fact, as observed earlier in the thread, it's normally required to supplement some nutrients when eating fully plant-based.)
A fully plant based diet can be a fine thing, and can be healthful and nutritious. There are many reasons to adopt such a way of eating, but for the average person the claim that it will result in improved health versus any possible omnivorous diet . . . I think that's nonsense. A doctor who says otherwise is IMO providing scientifically inaccurate nutritional advice. (I'd say the same about a doctor who said people *must* eat meat for good health, too, at least at this stage of scientific understanding.)
Forks Over Knives is an advocacy site - pretty openly and honestly so, and not the most absurdly unscientific example of the type (there are some doozies). For plant-based nutritional advice, though, I'd go with https://veganhealth.org/.
I think the misleading advocacy sites mis-state the valid case(s) for plant-based eating, make plant-based eaters look bad, and ultimately undermine their own goals by doing so. If they can only make converts by cherry picking studies or distorting conclusions, that's not a sign of integrity or intelligence.7 -
Folks, in case I wasn't clear, I'm seeing an endocrinologist and following her treatment plan. There is a dietitian integrated in the endocrinology practice.
At the outset, I was looking for ways to manage a vegan diet because I thought I was supposed to do that but had no experience with it.
Having discovered that such a diet is inappropriate for me, and having uncovered a load of conflicts of interest in the proponents of veganism that my GP follows, the conversation changed. OK? Not looking for a diagnosis on MFP. I already have one.4 -
wilson10102018 wrote: »southkonahi wrote: »wilson10102018 wrote: »But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
Diet is certainly important for good health. But a medical doctor who directs his patient to confine himself to a "plant based diet" is a quack.
I've been vegetarian for 46+ years, and agree with the above, though I'd maybe put it a little more mildly. (The doctor's other medical advice may be sound . . . ?)
A doctor who says people *must* eat a fully planted based diet for best health - in the absence of some very unusual medical condition, anyway - is pushing philosophy, not medical knowledge.
The average person would be better off, health-wise, IMO, if s/he ate more veggies and fruits, because (in the US anyway) the average person eats pitifully few . . . surveys suggest it's well below the semi-standard "5 servings daily" recommendation, and some nutritional authorities are now suggesting that 5 is lower than optimal. Through most of millennia of human history, the majority of human societies have consumed at least some animal-source foods. It seems very unlikely to me that natural selection left us in a state where we get optimum health only by omitting them. (In fact, as observed earlier in the thread, it's normally required to supplement some nutrients when eating fully plant-based.)
A fully plant based diet can be a fine thing, and can be healthful and nutritious. There are many reasons to adopt such a way of eating, but for the average person the claim that it will result in improved health versus any possible omnivorous diet . . . I think that's nonsense. A doctor who says otherwise is IMO providing scientifically inaccurate nutritional advice. (I'd say the same about a doctor who said people *must* eat meat for good health, too, at least at this stage of scientific understanding.)
Forks Over Knives is an advocacy site - pretty openly and honestly so, and not the most absurdly unscientific example of the type (there are some doozies). For plant-based nutritional advice, though, I'd go with https://veganhealth.org/.
I think the misleading advocacy sites mis-state the valid case(s) for plant-based eating, make plant-based eaters look bad, and ultimately undermine their own goals by doing so. If they can only make converts by cherry picking studies or distorting conclusions, that's not a sign of integrity or intelligence.
That is an excellent link. 👏I thank you fror posting.1 -
meeppeepneep wrote: »Run away. Forks over knives is quackery of the worst kind. Go see a registered dietician and take their advice. That goes double if you are going vegan, because it's easy to not get all nutrients you need.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ID_2ymmvW5w
If you're talking about OP's specific circumstance, I would agree (although it sounds like she's got it all worked out now). If you're talking about the average person: It's really not that hard. I'm almost fifteen years in, have never seen an RD, and my annual blood tests are fine. Just visit an evidence-based resource like veganhealth.org and you'll get the information you need to plan your diet.
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I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole1 -
I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole
I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.
I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole
I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.
I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.
Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole
I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.
I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.
Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.
I think at least part of it is having a stable population to study. Although lots of people try keto for weight management, I'm not sure there is a large group of people who stay on it long-term to provide the basis for the type of evidence that would be useful for this conversation.
(Someone else may have the information on many people are doing keto long-term for weight management, but I've never found an estimate).2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole
I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.
I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.
Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.
I think at least part of it is having a stable population to study. Although lots of people try keto for weight management, I'm not sure there is a large group of people who stay on it long-term to provide the basis for the type of evidence that would be useful for this conversation.
(Someone else may have the information on many people are doing keto long-term for weight management, but I've never found an estimate).
I go on Pub Med, NIH, etc. Science Direct.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole
I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.
I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.
Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.
I think you could also find a similar stories with plant based dieters and vegans. How many that fall into those categories have iron deficiencies or have seen b12 deficiencies? In my experience, i see more plant based dieters with these ailments than people following keto with other ailments. At most i have seem keto flu and a very small handful with keto rash. Maybe the population is not represented well.. meaning there are more people following vegan or plant based dieting.
While i largely support the LDL hypothesis, i do sometimes question it. Mainly because i haven't seen a large dataset of those studied that follow low carb diets. So the questioned to be asked, what kind of risk is there if LDL is slightly elevated, but you have great triglycerides, HDL, fasting glucose, and no history of cardiovascular disease in the family. Some of my questioning comes from having no heart disease in my family, but both sides have high LDL (100-150 range). And that doesn't matter if we are following a low fat or high fat diet. In fact, my results had the doctor rethink my mom and dads result as i am fit, don't drink or smoke and regularly exercise. My LDL was almost the same as my dad who was 60 lbs overweight, and he used to drink.
Also, when I do keto, i consume mainly lean red meat, chicken thighs, game meats, ahi tuna, salmon, nuts, seeds, greek yogurt, chia seeds, low gi berries, avocado and olive/avocado oil. Essentially, most of my fats are added, not from fatty meats and full fat dairy. I also focus on my protein and less fats. So my fat is often 55-60% at most.
The problem is when people feel the need to eat *kitten* tons of fat because they believe eating copious amounts of fat is the way. And they believe eating butter, coconut oil, or tons of heavy cream in coffee is healthy.6
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