Nutrition Education

sal10851

I'm in my 30s and I don't remember being taught any type of nutitional information. School lunches consisted of pizza, burgers, hot dogs fries. The only "healthy" options were canned fruits swimming in syrup or literally a handful of salad. I clearly remember the lunch lady using her bare hands. Ugh. So growing up I thought that's what what you are for lunch so naturally I gravitated towards the addictions of fast food. I did not know what a carbohydrate was. I couldn't understand how a liquid other than water could make you fat!

McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Denny's, Hardee's, CoCa Cola all these companies are businesses that are designed to make money. They use that money to hire food researchers to make their product as tasty as possible to keep us coming for more. It's all fat, salt, and sugar which is what we all crave. It tricks our brains into eating more because it taste do good! The end result is empty calories that make you hungry an hour later and the cycle begins all over again. It's not just fast food. Snacks are perfectly sweet and perfectly crunchy for a reason.

My point is that we need better physical and nutritional information in our school systems. If fast foods displayed the calorie count as big as they displayed their prices we would be better informed. We are all responsible for what we put in our mouths but having the information would make a difference.

Have any of you encountered a similar issue?

Do you have kids in school who are actively being taught the value of nutrition?

Anyway that's the end of my rant thanks for reading. Cheers!

cmriverside

Yeah, it's a problem.

I guess as with anything else it ultimately falls to the parents to teach the kids what they think is important. There's just as much poor nutrition in many homes due to habit, time restrictions, budget and other factors.

Diatonic12

I remember Jamie O. taking all of this on, here's his nugget video for the kids.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/school-lunch-jamie-oliver-huntington_n_589cf796e4b0ab2d2b13ab89


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKwL5G5HbGA

lemurcat2

I don't recall much nutrition education at all, but for a vague memory of learning about food groups, but I think we did have some education. I am very much in favor of more education and, ideally, cooking and meal-planning instruction, but in reality I think most people tend to learn this kind of thing from their families. My family wasn't super focused on nutrition and would use convenience products (and my mom wasn't into cooking), but for the most part we ate reasonably healthfully -- dinner, for example, was meat, one type of starch (potato, corn, spaghetti, bread), and some vegetables. Sometimes a salad too, sometimes in the summer the salad was the veg. When I was younger we lived in an area where veg outside of the summer would be mostly canned or frozen (I was older when our grocery store had "fresh" produce all year round and even then it was expensive). Lunches were sandwiches with some veg (carrots and celery or the like) or fruit on the side, and perhaps a small dessert. I was a weird kid who hated sandwiches, though (I was very picky about bread), and so I'd bring something like soup in a thermos instead. I don't recall much about our hot lunches except they were rarely stuff I liked (I look at the hot lunches in my local school district now and they do try to be kid-friendly, but that doesn't mean they can't have decent nutrition, even with things like chicken fingers or tacos as a main, and they have tried to provide nutritious meals, I know).

Fast food or any kind of restaurant food, but fast food and pizza were popular with kids, was an occasional treat thing, not something we thought was a regular thing. When my parents went out my sister and I would get to have TV dinners, and that was a special treat (probably because it was different, as I'm not sure why they were supposedly so tasty looking back).

Fast food does have calories and I think they -- and other places required to post them -- are easy enough to see. (I rarely have fast food, usually only on road trips, but last time I went through a drive through the calories were quite visibly displayed. When I get quick serve (like Potbelly's, a local sandwich chain here), I always check cals before also.)

Mainly I think the issue is more people not wanting to know vs. not having a clue, as I suspect most people realize that eating sufficient protein, plus a good amount of veg and some fruit is desirable. That so many people eat basically no veg, or almost none, makes me think it's not so much a lack of knowledge but habit or preferences or just not caring that much because you feel fine so there's no need to change.

BarbaraHelen2013

I totally agree that it’s ultimately down to parents to lead by example and teach the benefits of a balanced healthy diet.

I was taught all about nutrition at school, however, both in a human body segment of the Biology curriculum and in Food & Nutrition, the latter being a standard timetabled subject from age 11 up to 14 - being the point at which we chose subjects to concentrate on for ‘O’-levels (yes, I am that old!). After 14 it was available as a full exam course (which I did choose to take, incidentally).

All 4 of my children, both boys and girls were also taught about nutrition as part of at least. two subjects PHSE and Food Technology, and I can’t imagine that it’s not touched upon in Biology too, as part of the human body systems.

Education is only part of the solution. Personal responsibility is ultimately the answer though. Putting into practice what you learn is the key, simply knowing the facts is not enough!

Fuzzipeg

Jamie O's fight against the "turkey twisler" which once was the foundation of many a Brit school meal may need to return. I've heard its available again only its predominantly pork, more protein than before but next to no turkey.

Education is important - necessary

sal10851

Growing up we were poor. School lunch was our only meal throughout the day. At night we were not dining on steaks to put it nicely. More about quantity than quality.

Since I didn't learn about nutrition at home or at school I put on some weight. I didn't know what a carbohydrate was. I honestly thought it had something to do with water since it had the word hydrate! I had to teach myself basic nutrition like how to read the nutrition facts on a label. I learned the hard way that filling your stomach with crap will only make you hungrier an hour later. I know now that fresh and quality food does not make you as hungry. I've been able to shed most of the weight using MFP and some exercise. Now I can teach my kid good eating habits if I can afford to have one! I want to break that cycle of having kids just so you can name them after yourself! Yeah that's what my dad did! But it's ok I grew up a big fat happy kid who had to lose the weight when he grew up!

springlering62

I grew up in a home where “fresh” vegetables meant the can had just been opened. To my shame, it’s only since my WLJ began that I started reaching for fresh veg and I love them!

My girls attended a Montessori school for many years. The owner was notorious for going through kids’ lunchboxes and pulling out things like little debbies, candy bars, things like that. At first I was furious. I mean, they were individually wrapped convenience foods and I was all about convenience and had no clue what I was doing to my kids.

In retrospect, I sincerely appreciate her efforts. It was a wonderful school, well worth the idiosyncracy, and once Mom “learned” what the admin deemed appropriate lunchbox fare I fell in line. To this day, my kids could care less about sweets and junk, whereas I spent my first five decades craving, buying and hiding the stuff.

AnnPT77

I guess I was lucky.

I remember learning about nutrition in school, to some extent, across some science classes and health classes in junior high, and in home ec classes (girls only at the time, boys took shop). This was a million years ago. (OK, I hit kindergarten in hmmm, I guess 1960, and graduated high school in 1973.)

Relevant link, for some of what was covered (you'll be surprised, I predict, in one way or another): https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10625791/mainstream-eating-guidance-1960

That said, this was a pretty regrettable school overall, in a rural poverty area. A huge benefit of that schooling experience, in retrospect, was that it left me with zero illusion that I could expect school to teach me all the things I really needed to know. Instead, it left me with the idea that education was a thing I needed to do to myself, not something a school did to me. That tendency toward feeling responsible for self-directed learning - which my family environment also helped foster in various ways - has been a big asset over the years IMO.

As an aside, because I think it's funny, one of the common main dishes in our school lunch program was gravy. Yup, gravy. You would get a big heap of instant mashed potatoes, topped with a good-sized ladle of gravy that had meat chunks in it - not big ones, not many. There was beef gravy, hamburger gravy, chicken or turkey gravy, pork gravy - a common thing they served. Usually that plus perhaps a dinner roll (those were *good*, BTW - not necessarily nutritious, but tasty), maybe a small bit of canned green beans or the like, a little bit of lettuce with vinaigrette-ish dressing and (bizarrely) mini marshmallows.

My family, in general, was a good influence nutritionally. My parents were older (mom 43, dad 38, when I was born). They had lived through the depression as adults, my dad had grown up in a subsistence farming scenario, my mom had gone to nursing school in her early 40s before they got married (after being a live-in caregiver with some families where the wife was disabled). Between dad's gardening, and mom's good cooking (plus canning and freezing), we got good nutrition, mostly real food.

I don't have kids, so I don't know what's taught now, or needs to be.

I'm not very sympathetic with the idea that adults don't know how to eat, and don't know that it's important to get good nutrition. Life is busy, but that information is really widely available.

I'm being more harsh in my opinion about it, but I agree with Lemur - it's more about adults not caring to know, rather than this being information that isn't available or common in written media, TV shows, on the internet in various forms, recipes/signs/handouts at grocery stores, and more. People on autopilot could miss it, and I do feel some sympathy for lower-income, lower-education folks with limited resources and high-stress busy schedules, in areas with limited options.

Generally, though, the idea that we're hapless, helpless victims of fast food purveyors and food marketers is really disempowering . . . although really kind of convenient.

janejellyroll

I agree with @AnnPT77 here . . . even when I was at my least educated nutritionally, I still understood general concepts like "I should eat more vegetables" and "a honey bun from the vending machine is not an ideal breakfast." This didn't mean I was eating more vegetables or preparing a different breakfast, but my choices were not the result of ignorance.

I think that understanding things like exactly what carbohydrates are and how many calories we need to maintain our weight are useful. Most people needing to intentionally do things to control their weight would be better off learning these and similar concepts.

But when it comes to general guidelines on how to eat to meet our nutritional needs, I think many adults already get it. When I was choosing to have a personal pan pizza and two regular cokes for lunch in college, it wasn't because I thought it was a lunch that was best suited to meet my nutritional needs. I understood there were things I needed in fresh vegetables and whole grains and beans that I wasn't getting from that lunch (or from my other meals). I don't see myself has having been a victim of Pizza Hut.

When I would go through periods where I wanted to eat better, I understood the types of swaps to make within my time and budget. I wasn't making the very best meals possible and there were still lots of things I didn't know. But I knew foods like frozen broccoli, romaine lettuce, canned tuna, minestrone soup, oatmeal, apples, eggs, and whole grain pita bread were meeting more of my nutritional needs than pan pizza, coke, and pre-made pastries even if I couldn't always articulate why that was.

ccrdragon

I gotta agree with both of the above posts. I was lucky - both of my parents grew up poor, my father was the son of a farmer and my mother the daughter of a factory worker. Both of my grandmothers were teachers. Their families always had large gardens for vegetables (neither family bought veggies from the store) so they could eat fresh as they were harvested and canned for the winter (it was the only way they could make ends meet). My father always had a garden while I was growing up so fresh veggies were just the norm for us. We occasionally had treats but they were just that - treats and not an every day occurrence. I knew, both from school and from home what was good for me (read nutritious).

It wasn't until I started working in high school that I regularly started eating fast-food and junk food, mainly because I was missing meal times at home, so I was feeding myself. I still had access to food at the house and most of it was 'healthy' food. I just didn't eat it as much - it wasn't from ignorance that I made those choices, it was just quicker to grab something between school and work than to take the time to prepare something and keep up with it for the 'on-the-go' quick fix between school and work.

janejellyroll

ccrdragon wrote: »

I gotta agree with both of the above posts. I was lucky - both of my parents grew up poor, my father was the son of a farmer and my mother the daughter of a factory worker. Both of my grandmothers were teachers. Their families always had large gardens for vegetables (neither family bought veggies from the store) so they could eat fresh as they were harvested and canned for the winter (it was the only way they could make ends meet). My father always had a garden while I was growing up so fresh veggies were just the norm for us. We occasionally had treats but they were just that - treats and not an every day occurrence. I knew, both from school and from home what was good for me (read nutritious).

It wasn't until I started working in high school that I regularly started eating fast-food and junk food, mainly because I was missing meal times at home, so I was feeding myself. I still had access to food at the house and most of it was 'healthy' food. I just didn't eat it as much - it wasn't from ignorance that I made those choices, it was just quicker to grab something between school and work than to take the time to prepare something and keep up with it for the 'on-the-go' quick fix between school and work.

Yes, to the extent where more education might be helpful, I think it would specifically be in the area of how to make better choices within your budget and the time you want to and/or can spend preparing food. How to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good when it comes to meal planning, that sort of thing.

Because many people already know the type of things they should eat more of and the type of thing they might need to eat less of, but they might need some tips on how to make it work for their lifestyle. But at the end of the day, even these tools aren't going to do much if people still PREFER to eat how they've been eating and I think that's a big part of the picture.

I didn't eat fast food all the time because fast food was lying to me. I ate fast food all the time because I liked the way it tasted and I didn't want to wake up a few minutes earlier to prepare a lunch. Those were choices. And when I ate fast food, I wasn't even making an effort to minimize the calories in the meal or maximize the nutrients. These were things I could have tried to do, even with the limited nutritional information that I had. I wasn't unaware that there was a difference between the large Tater Tots and the small, I just wanted the large one.

quiksylver296

My child's nutrition education comes from me. I've educated myself, and now I'm passing that on to him.

AnnPT77

janejellyroll wrote: »

ccrdragon wrote: »

I gotta agree with both of the above posts. I was lucky - both of my parents grew up poor, my father was the son of a farmer and my mother the daughter of a factory worker. Both of my grandmothers were teachers. Their families always had large gardens for vegetables (neither family bought veggies from the store) so they could eat fresh as they were harvested and canned for the winter (it was the only way they could make ends meet). My father always had a garden while I was growing up so fresh veggies were just the norm for us. We occasionally had treats but they were just that - treats and not an every day occurrence. I knew, both from school and from home what was good for me (read nutritious).

It wasn't until I started working in high school that I regularly started eating fast-food and junk food, mainly because I was missing meal times at home, so I was feeding myself. I still had access to food at the house and most of it was 'healthy' food. I just didn't eat it as much - it wasn't from ignorance that I made those choices, it was just quicker to grab something between school and work than to take the time to prepare something and keep up with it for the 'on-the-go' quick fix between school and work.

Yes, to the extent where more education might be helpful, I think it would specifically be in the area of how to make better choices within your budget and the time you want to and/or can spend preparing food. How to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good when it comes to meal planning, that sort of thing.

Because many people already know the type of things they should eat more of and the type of thing they might need to eat less of, but they might need some tips on how to make it work for their lifestyle. But at the end of the day, even these tools aren't going to do much if people still PREFER to eat how they've been eating and I think that's a big part of the picture.

I didn't eat fast food all the time because fast food was lying to me. I ate fast food all the time because I liked the way it tasted and I didn't want to wake up a few minutes earlier to prepare a lunch. Those were choices. And when I ate fast food, I wasn't even making an effort to minimize the calories in the meal or maximize the nutrients. These were things I could have tried to do, even with the limited nutritional information that I had. I wasn't unaware that there was a difference between the large Tater Tots and the small, I just wanted the large one.

To add to this, and speaking only for myself, I didn't get fat/obese from eating fast food and drinking sugary drinks, either. I won't posture that my nutrition was ideal, or that I didn't eat treats, because that would be false. But I can't recall a time when I was eating common fast foods more often than a few times a year (may a bit more in college, but not lots even then), and might drink around a dozen or so servings of soda/pop or equivalent in a typical year. Those are just not my thing.

Snack foods were in the mix (chips, candy) and baked goods (often homemade/wholegrain), but not a daily major deal in my eating generally. My baking routine for decades was to cut sugar in half, in standard recipes where it wasn't a structural ingredient (like it is in hard meringues, say) - I've never liked things as sweet as the average recipe, especially not fruit things (pie, cobbler, etc.).

Most of what I ate while getting/staying fat and obese was decently nutritious: I've been vegetarian for 46 years, eat my veggies/fruits, strongly preferred whole grain foods vs. highly refined purely for taste, and more. I just ate too gol-dang much, in portion size and calorie density (fried things, dressings, cheese, rich sauces, large servings of whole wheat pasta), and got fat. It was simple.

This probably adds a bit of my emotional weight to my inherent skepticism about "fast food caused the obesity crisis", "food additives caused the obesity crisis", etc. . . . though I can state and defend a set of objective reasons for the skepticism, on top of that emotional/personal piece.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Food companies exist to make money. If we voted with our dollars to say that we wanted single-serve, shelf-stable, ready-to-eat, organic, heritage-variety, minmum oil, calorie-efficient roasted brussels sprouts with zero polysyllabic additives, in ecologically resaponsible packaging, the food companies would be falling all over themselves competing to make them as ubiquitously available and affordable as possible. There'd be spinner racks of them in every convenience store and grocery checkout, and drive-throughs would serve them up by the millions of tons daily.

We vote with our dollars. Companies figure out what we'll vote those dollars for, what we truly want (not just claim we want) and they deliver it. If we change our actual wants, they'll change what they deliver.

janejellyroll

AnnPT77 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

ccrdragon wrote: »

I gotta agree with both of the above posts. I was lucky - both of my parents grew up poor, my father was the son of a farmer and my mother the daughter of a factory worker. Both of my grandmothers were teachers. Their families always had large gardens for vegetables (neither family bought veggies from the store) so they could eat fresh as they were harvested and canned for the winter (it was the only way they could make ends meet). My father always had a garden while I was growing up so fresh veggies were just the norm for us. We occasionally had treats but they were just that - treats and not an every day occurrence. I knew, both from school and from home what was good for me (read nutritious).

It wasn't until I started working in high school that I regularly started eating fast-food and junk food, mainly because I was missing meal times at home, so I was feeding myself. I still had access to food at the house and most of it was 'healthy' food. I just didn't eat it as much - it wasn't from ignorance that I made those choices, it was just quicker to grab something between school and work than to take the time to prepare something and keep up with it for the 'on-the-go' quick fix between school and work.

Yes, to the extent where more education might be helpful, I think it would specifically be in the area of how to make better choices within your budget and the time you want to and/or can spend preparing food. How to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good when it comes to meal planning, that sort of thing.

Because many people already know the type of things they should eat more of and the type of thing they might need to eat less of, but they might need some tips on how to make it work for their lifestyle. But at the end of the day, even these tools aren't going to do much if people still PREFER to eat how they've been eating and I think that's a big part of the picture.

I didn't eat fast food all the time because fast food was lying to me. I ate fast food all the time because I liked the way it tasted and I didn't want to wake up a few minutes earlier to prepare a lunch. Those were choices. And when I ate fast food, I wasn't even making an effort to minimize the calories in the meal or maximize the nutrients. These were things I could have tried to do, even with the limited nutritional information that I had. I wasn't unaware that there was a difference between the large Tater Tots and the small, I just wanted the large one.

To add to this, and speaking only for myself, I didn't get fat/obese from eating fast food and drinking sugary drinks, either. I won't posture that my nutrition was ideal, or that I didn't eat treats, because that would be false. But I can't recall a time when I was eating common fast foods more often than a few times a year (may a bit more in college, but not lots even then), and might drink around a dozen or so servings of soda/pop or equivalent in a typical year. Those are just not my thing.

Snack foods were in the mix (chips, candy) and baked goods (often homemade/wholegrain), but not a daily major deal in my eating generally. My baking routine for decades was to cut sugar in half, in standard recipes where it wasn't a structural ingredient (like it is in hard meringues, say) - I've never liked things as sweet as the average recipe, especially not fruit things (pie, cobbler, etc.).

Most of what I ate while getting/staying fat and obese was decently nutritious: I've been vegetarian for 46 years, eat my veggies/fruits, strongly preferred whole grain foods vs. highly refined purely for taste, and more. I just ate too gol-dang much, in portion size and calorie density (fried things, dressings, cheese, rich sauces, large servings of whole wheat pasta), and got fat. It was simple.

This probably adds a bit of my emotional weight to my inherent skepticism about "fast food caused the obesity crisis", "food additives caused the obesity crisis", etc. . . . though I can state and defend a set of objective reasons for the skepticism, on top of that emotional/personal piece.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Food companies exist to make money. If we voted with our dollars to say that we wanted single-serve, shelf-stable, ready-to-eat, organic, heritage-variety, minmum oil, calorie-efficient roasted brussels sprouts with zero polysyllabic additives, in ecologically resaponsible packaging, the food companies would be falling all over themselves competing to make them as ubiquitously available and affordable as possible. There'd be spinner racks of them in every convenience store and grocery checkout, and drive-throughs would serve them up by the millions of tons daily.

We vote with our dollars. Companies figure out what we'll vote those dollars for, what we truly want (not just claim we want) and they deliver it. If we change our actual wants, they'll change what they deliver.

To add my own context to this conversation: in my early 20s, fast food and snack food were absolutely a factor in my excess weight -- in the sense that they provided a big portion of my daily calories. Then when I got into a relationship, I began cooking the majority of my own food and found it was very easy for me to maintain excess weight on a diet that contained relatively little pre-prepared food (and for several years of that time, I was also vegan). Just like you, I ate too much and I found that -- for me -- eating nutrient-rich foods didn't change my tendency to do that. If you set down bowls of brown rice, broccoli, and baked tofu in front of me, my impulse will be to eat a lot of it. Can't blame the broccoli company for that.

So having been on both sides of it, I too am skeptical of the "fast food did it" angle because the constant factor in my excess weight was the person putting the food into my face . . . me.

To some extent, most visits to a modern supermarket will reveal the market attempting to meet some of these desires we clearly have to "eat better." Some of them seem cynical to me (granola bars with "superfoods," organic Cheez-Its, etc). Others seem more helpful to the busy person trying to get more nutrients (pre-cut and washed vegetables ready to steam). Some of them I don't really see the point of beyond being tasty (beet chips).

AnnPT77

janejellyroll wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

ccrdragon wrote: »

I gotta agree with both of the above posts. I was lucky - both of my parents grew up poor, my father was the son of a farmer and my mother the daughter of a factory worker. Both of my grandmothers were teachers. Their families always had large gardens for vegetables (neither family bought veggies from the store) so they could eat fresh as they were harvested and canned for the winter (it was the only way they could make ends meet). My father always had a garden while I was growing up so fresh veggies were just the norm for us. We occasionally had treats but they were just that - treats and not an every day occurrence. I knew, both from school and from home what was good for me (read nutritious).

It wasn't until I started working in high school that I regularly started eating fast-food and junk food, mainly because I was missing meal times at home, so I was feeding myself. I still had access to food at the house and most of it was 'healthy' food. I just didn't eat it as much - it wasn't from ignorance that I made those choices, it was just quicker to grab something between school and work than to take the time to prepare something and keep up with it for the 'on-the-go' quick fix between school and work.

Yes, to the extent where more education might be helpful, I think it would specifically be in the area of how to make better choices within your budget and the time you want to and/or can spend preparing food. How to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good when it comes to meal planning, that sort of thing.

Because many people already know the type of things they should eat more of and the type of thing they might need to eat less of, but they might need some tips on how to make it work for their lifestyle. But at the end of the day, even these tools aren't going to do much if people still PREFER to eat how they've been eating and I think that's a big part of the picture.

I didn't eat fast food all the time because fast food was lying to me. I ate fast food all the time because I liked the way it tasted and I didn't want to wake up a few minutes earlier to prepare a lunch. Those were choices. And when I ate fast food, I wasn't even making an effort to minimize the calories in the meal or maximize the nutrients. These were things I could have tried to do, even with the limited nutritional information that I had. I wasn't unaware that there was a difference between the large Tater Tots and the small, I just wanted the large one.

To add to this, and speaking only for myself, I didn't get fat/obese from eating fast food and drinking sugary drinks, either. I won't posture that my nutrition was ideal, or that I didn't eat treats, because that would be false. But I can't recall a time when I was eating common fast foods more often than a few times a year (may a bit more in college, but not lots even then), and might drink around a dozen or so servings of soda/pop or equivalent in a typical year. Those are just not my thing.

Snack foods were in the mix (chips, candy) and baked goods (often homemade/wholegrain), but not a daily major deal in my eating generally. My baking routine for decades was to cut sugar in half, in standard recipes where it wasn't a structural ingredient (like it is in hard meringues, say) - I've never liked things as sweet as the average recipe, especially not fruit things (pie, cobbler, etc.).

Most of what I ate while getting/staying fat and obese was decently nutritious: I've been vegetarian for 46 years, eat my veggies/fruits, strongly preferred whole grain foods vs. highly refined purely for taste, and more. I just ate too gol-dang much, in portion size and calorie density (fried things, dressings, cheese, rich sauces, large servings of whole wheat pasta), and got fat. It was simple.

This probably adds a bit of my emotional weight to my inherent skepticism about "fast food caused the obesity crisis", "food additives caused the obesity crisis", etc. . . . though I can state and defend a set of objective reasons for the skepticism, on top of that emotional/personal piece.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Food companies exist to make money. If we voted with our dollars to say that we wanted single-serve, shelf-stable, ready-to-eat, organic, heritage-variety, minmum oil, calorie-efficient roasted brussels sprouts with zero polysyllabic additives, in ecologically resaponsible packaging, the food companies would be falling all over themselves competing to make them as ubiquitously available and affordable as possible. There'd be spinner racks of them in every convenience store and grocery checkout, and drive-throughs would serve them up by the millions of tons daily.

We vote with our dollars. Companies figure out what we'll vote those dollars for, what we truly want (not just claim we want) and they deliver it. If we change our actual wants, they'll change what they deliver.

To add my own context to this conversation: in my early 20s, fast food and snack food were absolutely a factor in my excess weight -- in the sense that they provided a big portion of my daily calories. Then when I got into a relationship, I began cooking the majority of my own food and found it was very easy for me to maintain excess weight on a diet that contained relatively little pre-prepared food (and for several years of that time, I was also vegan). Just like you, I ate too much and I found that -- for me -- eating nutrient-rich foods didn't change my tendency to do that. If you set down bowls of brown rice, broccoli, and baked tofu in front of me, my impulse will be to eat a lot of it. Can't blame the broccoli company for that.

So having been on both sides of it, I too am skeptical of the "fast food did it" angle because the constant factor in my excess weight was the person putting the food into my face . . . me.

To some extent, most visits to a modern supermarket will reveal the market attempting to meet some of these desires we clearly have to "eat better." Some of them seem cynical to me (granola bars with "superfoods," organic Cheez-Its, etc). Others seem more helpful to the busy person trying to get more nutrients (pre-cut and washed vegetables ready to steam). Some of them I don't really see the point of beyond being tasty (beet chips).

At risk of digressing further from the key question (but still commenting on text/subtext of the OP):

Marketers are interested in both what we say we want (or think we ought to want), and what we *demonstrate* we want.

For a while, I went to MBA school**, which included multiple marketing classes. What I stated above was very, very clear.

The basic principle of marketing as taught at the time (1980s****) was that you figure out what the consumer *needs*, as they express the need behaviorally. This plays out in things like taste tests, careful/subtle assessment of focus groups, etc., as well as analysis of market/sales trends. That's the product development side of marketing, oversimplified. (As an aside, this is a specialized sense of "need", perhaps: One that doesn't position the food company as the consumers' mommy and daddy, responsible for raising them right. 😉)

Once you know the need, which is sometimes a rather deeply hidden or disguised one, and you have your product in mind, you figure out how to fine-tune and sell it to them. That's the part most people think of as marketing, but it's really more like promotion and advertising. This is where what the consumer thinks they *ought* to want comes in. We like to think of ourselves as rational people who make good, mature decisions, right?

Examples: You want fried chicken, but think a salad would be healthier? Voila: Crispy chicken salad! You know you should eat your whole grains, but secretly would prefer a candy bar? Here ya go, it's a chocolate-chip marshmallow caramel granola bar!

And so forth. Position the product close to the deep wants, advertise/promote it based on the "should want"/"feel good about wanting" veneer.

That's a very cynical way to describe it. Maybe more cynical than the "it's all a plot to harm us" scenario. Meh. Caveat emptor, temet nosce, and all that good jazz.

** Truth in advertising, I didn't complete that degree.

**** Often regarded as the time when the obesity crisis started. Coincidence? 🤨 (<= 😆 Joking, sincerely. )

heybales

I just got a vision of what happens at a public school with a nutritional class that actually gets into some depth on some of the skills that needs to be learned going forward - calorie budget, and the effects of being off.

Even if the teacher did a great job of not giving an inkling toward any student that may need to understand this concept - you know other kids during the discussion are going to sadly single out someone for making fun of.

Now if the parent is keeping up with their kid, they are going to hear about it - perhaps not the fact it was other students actually, but even some claim the teacher was insinuating something or focused on their kid.

Now several parents are in an uproar over the perceived wrong done to their kid because of what this class is getting in to. Even if the parent would benefit from knowing and using such info perhaps. (as commented though - they know)

I could well imagine this is why my son's grade school nutrition info was just on the food plate concept and types of foods - not one thing in it about calories. It stood out as lacking because I asked my son why he thought this portion of oil/fats over here was so small compared to the others.

corinasue1143

Nope. Never had any nutrition education at home or in school. Have a masters degree. Finally went to a dietician and learned A LOT when I was 55. Finally started looking at vegetarian cookbooks and recipes (I’m a MEAT EATER) and finally started liking vegetables at the age of 55.

janejellyroll

AnnPT77 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

ccrdragon wrote: »

I gotta agree with both of the above posts. I was lucky - both of my parents grew up poor, my father was the son of a farmer and my mother the daughter of a factory worker. Both of my grandmothers were teachers. Their families always had large gardens for vegetables (neither family bought veggies from the store) so they could eat fresh as they were harvested and canned for the winter (it was the only way they could make ends meet). My father always had a garden while I was growing up so fresh veggies were just the norm for us. We occasionally had treats but they were just that - treats and not an every day occurrence. I knew, both from school and from home what was good for me (read nutritious).

It wasn't until I started working in high school that I regularly started eating fast-food and junk food, mainly because I was missing meal times at home, so I was feeding myself. I still had access to food at the house and most of it was 'healthy' food. I just didn't eat it as much - it wasn't from ignorance that I made those choices, it was just quicker to grab something between school and work than to take the time to prepare something and keep up with it for the 'on-the-go' quick fix between school and work.

Yes, to the extent where more education might be helpful, I think it would specifically be in the area of how to make better choices within your budget and the time you want to and/or can spend preparing food. How to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good when it comes to meal planning, that sort of thing.

Because many people already know the type of things they should eat more of and the type of thing they might need to eat less of, but they might need some tips on how to make it work for their lifestyle. But at the end of the day, even these tools aren't going to do much if people still PREFER to eat how they've been eating and I think that's a big part of the picture.

I didn't eat fast food all the time because fast food was lying to me. I ate fast food all the time because I liked the way it tasted and I didn't want to wake up a few minutes earlier to prepare a lunch. Those were choices. And when I ate fast food, I wasn't even making an effort to minimize the calories in the meal or maximize the nutrients. These were things I could have tried to do, even with the limited nutritional information that I had. I wasn't unaware that there was a difference between the large Tater Tots and the small, I just wanted the large one.

To add to this, and speaking only for myself, I didn't get fat/obese from eating fast food and drinking sugary drinks, either. I won't posture that my nutrition was ideal, or that I didn't eat treats, because that would be false. But I can't recall a time when I was eating common fast foods more often than a few times a year (may a bit more in college, but not lots even then), and might drink around a dozen or so servings of soda/pop or equivalent in a typical year. Those are just not my thing.

Snack foods were in the mix (chips, candy) and baked goods (often homemade/wholegrain), but not a daily major deal in my eating generally. My baking routine for decades was to cut sugar in half, in standard recipes where it wasn't a structural ingredient (like it is in hard meringues, say) - I've never liked things as sweet as the average recipe, especially not fruit things (pie, cobbler, etc.).

Most of what I ate while getting/staying fat and obese was decently nutritious: I've been vegetarian for 46 years, eat my veggies/fruits, strongly preferred whole grain foods vs. highly refined purely for taste, and more. I just ate too gol-dang much, in portion size and calorie density (fried things, dressings, cheese, rich sauces, large servings of whole wheat pasta), and got fat. It was simple.

This probably adds a bit of my emotional weight to my inherent skepticism about "fast food caused the obesity crisis", "food additives caused the obesity crisis", etc. . . . though I can state and defend a set of objective reasons for the skepticism, on top of that emotional/personal piece.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Food companies exist to make money. If we voted with our dollars to say that we wanted single-serve, shelf-stable, ready-to-eat, organic, heritage-variety, minmum oil, calorie-efficient roasted brussels sprouts with zero polysyllabic additives, in ecologically resaponsible packaging, the food companies would be falling all over themselves competing to make them as ubiquitously available and affordable as possible. There'd be spinner racks of them in every convenience store and grocery checkout, and drive-throughs would serve them up by the millions of tons daily.

We vote with our dollars. Companies figure out what we'll vote those dollars for, what we truly want (not just claim we want) and they deliver it. If we change our actual wants, they'll change what they deliver.

To add my own context to this conversation: in my early 20s, fast food and snack food were absolutely a factor in my excess weight -- in the sense that they provided a big portion of my daily calories. Then when I got into a relationship, I began cooking the majority of my own food and found it was very easy for me to maintain excess weight on a diet that contained relatively little pre-prepared food (and for several years of that time, I was also vegan). Just like you, I ate too much and I found that -- for me -- eating nutrient-rich foods didn't change my tendency to do that. If you set down bowls of brown rice, broccoli, and baked tofu in front of me, my impulse will be to eat a lot of it. Can't blame the broccoli company for that.

So having been on both sides of it, I too am skeptical of the "fast food did it" angle because the constant factor in my excess weight was the person putting the food into my face . . . me.

To some extent, most visits to a modern supermarket will reveal the market attempting to meet some of these desires we clearly have to "eat better." Some of them seem cynical to me (granola bars with "superfoods," organic Cheez-Its, etc). Others seem more helpful to the busy person trying to get more nutrients (pre-cut and washed vegetables ready to steam). Some of them I don't really see the point of beyond being tasty (beet chips).

At risk of digressing further from the key question (but still commenting on text/subtext of the OP):

Marketers are interested in both what we say we want (or think we ought to want), and what we *demonstrate* we want.

For a while, I went to MBA school**, which included multiple marketing classes. What I stated above was very, very clear.

The basic principle of marketing as taught at the time (1980s****) was that you figure out what the consumer *needs*, as they express the need behaviorally. This plays out in things like taste tests, careful/subtle assessment of focus groups, etc., as well as analysis of market/sales trends. That's the product development side of marketing, oversimplified. (As an aside, this is a specialized sense of "need", perhaps: One that doesn't position the food company as the consumers' mommy and daddy, responsible for raising them right. 😉)

Once you know the need, which is sometimes a rather deeply hidden or disguised one, and you have your product in mind, you figure out how to fine-tune and sell it to them. That's the part most people think of as marketing, but it's really more like promotion and advertising. This is where what the consumer thinks they *ought* to want comes in. We like to think of ourselves as rational people who make good, mature decisions, right?

Examples: You want fried chicken, but think a salad would be healthier? Voila: Crispy chicken salad! You know you should eat your whole grains, but secretly would prefer a candy bar? Here ya go, it's a chocolate-chip marshmallow caramel granola bar!

And so forth. Position the product close to the deep wants, advertise/promote it based on the "should want"/"feel good about wanting" veneer.

That's a very cynical way to describe it. Maybe more cynical than the "it's all a plot to harm us" scenario. Meh. Caveat emptor, temet nosce, and all that good jazz.

** Truth in advertising, I didn't complete that degree.

**** Often regarded as the time when the obesity crisis started. Coincidence? 🤨 (<= 😆 Joking, sincerely. )

This is very interesting stuff and really explains a lot of what we see in grocery stores and restaurants.

AnnPT77

heybales wrote: »

I just got a vision of what happens at a public school with a nutritional class that actually gets into some depth on some of the skills that needs to be learned going forward - calorie budget, and the effects of being off.

Even if the teacher did a great job of not giving an inkling toward any student that may need to understand this concept - you know other kids during the discussion are going to sadly single out someone for making fun of.

Now if the parent is keeping up with their kid, they are going to hear about it - perhaps not the fact it was other students actually, but even some claim the teacher was insinuating something or focused on their kid.

Now several parents are in an uproar over the perceived wrong done to their kid because of what this class is getting in to. Even if the parent would benefit from knowing and using such info perhaps. (as commented though - they know)

I could well imagine this is why my son's grade school nutrition info was just on the food plate concept and types of foods - not one thing in it about calories. It stood out as lacking because I asked my son why he thought this portion of oil/fats over here was so small compared to the others.

You have a good point there.

This is a cynical and pretty much just snarky add-on: Perhaps they may also recognize that the math skills the students are getting alongside that plate theory are not completely up to the task, in addition to the problem of potential parental horror over an obsessive, prejudiced thing like calorie counting.

Most people here on MFP are doing OK math-wise, perhaps partly because this kind of site probably tends to peel off a somewhat better-educated (or equivalent) segment of the population. Even so, I'm frequently surprised by things people - sadly - struggle with. I'm talking about things like taking the calorie count of a raw food, and trying to figure out (even with all relevant weights in hand) how to determine how many calories is in 127g of the 358g cooked foods is, if the raw food amounted to 653g and 226 calories.

School was a long time ago, for me. I can still remember "story problems" being the most disliked by most all of us, considered to be the hardest. Even now, I hear/see friends say they never got anything out of algebra, and never use it. Unfortunately, adult life is one long series of story problems, often ones where we're solving for X.

Would simply improving arithmetic/math education, and working on reducing other forms of innumaracy, make calorie counting more appealing? Probably not, but a woman can dream.

(Semi-relevant li'l ol' lady digressive story: Does anyone else remember the furor, back in the early 1990s, about the talking Barbie Doll that said "Math class is tough"? 😆)

And, yes, I understand that calorie counting, or nutrition, or cooking could be used as a tool to teach applied math.

whoami67

I remember learning about food group boxes and, later, the food pyramid in school. I also took home ec where we learned about planning meals and cooking. I don't think there was much else. My school didn't serve food...we brought our own lunches up until high school. The high school did have some food for sale. There were corn dogs and pizza, but I'm not sure there was anything else. Just about everyone still brought their lunch from home and only supplemented with corn dogs if mom's lunch didn't hit the spot. In kindergarten, we did get a carton of milk for snack; I'm pretty sure it was whole milk.

I come from a long line of morbidly obese people on both sides of my family going back many generations. My mother was determined to avoid that fate for our family. She conscientiously served the healthiest meals she knew to serve at the time. Breakfast was usually oatmeal or a carton of lowfat yogurt. My lunch most days was a turkey sandwich on whole wheat bread, a piece of fruit and 1 small homemade cookie. Snack after school was a piece of fruit. Dinner was typically steamed broccoli, baked chicken breast, some brown rice or pasta or potato and a glass of skim milk. Once a week, we got to indulge in a few ounces of soda. I never got to try all the foods kids in the 1970's and 1980's loved. No pop tarts or Captain Crunch allowed. We were limited to 3 pieces of candy on Halloween.

The result was that we all grew up to be almost as obese as the previous generations who had indulged in unlimited amounts of butter, cream and sweets. And as for the next generation, I once heard my sister tell her young son that he had to finish the pizza on his plate before he ate any more french fries, much like most mothers tell their children to finish their vegetables or no dessert. I learned about nutrition from Jenny Craig back when they had classes you had to attend as part of their weight loss program. I learned more about it by trying every diet plan and fad ever invented and paying attention to how my body reacted.

All that to say, no, I don't think nutrition should be taught in school. I mostly think we learn these things from our families and from our own experiences. I don't think the schools are even managing to teach reading, writing and arithmetic competently. I don't think we know enough about nutrition or how individuals react to certain ways of eating to teach it. I certainly don't agree at all with the standard American diet that the average dietitian would be teaching. Their "education" would simply be a recipe for diabetes, heart disease and obesity. I'm quite sure public school nutrition education would be equivalent to the American Heart Association putting their logo on KFC boxes.

janejellyroll

whoami67 wrote: »

I remember learning about food group boxes and, later, the food pyramid in school. I also took home ec where we learned about planning meals and cooking. I don't think there was much else. My school didn't serve food...we brought our own lunches up until high school. The high school did have some food for sale. There were corn dogs and pizza, but I'm not sure there was anything else. Just about everyone still brought their lunch from home and only supplemented with corn dogs if mom's lunch didn't hit the spot. In kindergarten, we did get a carton of milk for snack; I'm pretty sure it was whole milk.

I come from a long line of morbidly obese people on both sides of my family going back many generations. My mother was determined to avoid that fate for our family. She conscientiously served the healthiest meals she knew to serve at the time. Breakfast was usually oatmeal or a carton of lowfat yogurt. My lunch most days was a turkey sandwich on whole wheat bread, a piece of fruit and 1 small homemade cookie. Snack after school was a piece of fruit. Dinner was typically steamed broccoli, baked chicken breast, some brown rice or pasta or potato and a glass of skim milk. Once a week, we got to indulge in a few ounces of soda. I never got to try all the foods kids in the 1970's and 1980's loved. No pop tarts or Captain Crunch allowed. We were limited to 3 pieces of candy on Halloween.

The result was that we all grew up to be almost as obese as the previous generations who had indulged in unlimited amounts of butter, cream and sweets. And as for the next generation, I once heard my sister tell her young son that he had to finish the pizza on his plate before he ate any more french fries, much like most mothers tell their children to finish their vegetables or no dessert. I learned about nutrition from Jenny Craig back when they had classes you had to attend as part of their weight loss program. I learned more about it by trying every diet plan and fad ever invented and paying attention to how my body reacted.

All that to say, no, I don't think nutrition should be taught in school. I mostly think we learn these things from our families and from our own experiences. I don't think the schools are even managing to teach reading, writing and arithmetic competently. I don't think we know enough about nutrition or how individuals react to certain ways of eating to teach it. I certainly don't agree at all with the standard American diet that the average dietitian would be teaching. Their "education" would simply be a recipe for diabetes, heart disease and obesity. I'm quite sure public school nutrition education would be equivalent to the American Heart Association putting their logo on KFC boxes.

The current US dietary recommendations are based on reducing the risk of diabetes, heart disease, and obesity based on what we currently know about outcomes related to nutrition. Unfortunately, even the best designed diet isn't going to significantly reduce obesity-related illness if too many calories are still consumed overall.

That said, I don't think it would be harmful to provide basic nutritional information based on current US guidelines. This would be information like make half your plates fruits and vegetables (with a focus on whole fruit), make sure to include whole grains in your grain selections, eat a variety of protein-containing foods, and be aware of added sugar and sodium in the foods you're choosing. I'm not sure how this could be harmful, to be honest.

dsc84

I remember nutrition education as far back as 2nd grade, but it wasn't necessarily good education. I can remember Pizza being stated as a wonder food because of the dairy, veg, carbohydrate, and protein. It hit the food pyramid like a boss. I remember learning about the food pyramid as well, but nothing was ever communicated about appropriate servings etc. At the same time no one ever talked about drinking calories or Calories in general. My parents weren't a good resource as they were always busy and we ate some pretty calorie dense food, not to mention the gallons of soda I drank as a kid.

As I got older those habits were hard to break. I did take a couple of courses in college on nutrition and that helped, but at the end of the day it wasn't enough to change my habits until I got older, and even then some stick around. I have had to teach myself about nutrition, portion size, Macros, and overall importance of your diet to your bodies performance. My kids have not touched this stuff in school nor do I suspect they will. I would love for schools to teach this stuff, but by the time they are old enough to start learning in school habits (good and bad) have been made. We have started our children from an early age with healthy foods. We still allow them treats on occasion. We do not desire to create binge eating, or food hiding habits, and you have to learn about moderation. When I was my oldest's age I guzzled sugary drinks. She gets a soda or juice at most once a week and prefers to drink water, and occasionally milk. My youngest is the same way. They choose healthy snacks 95% of the time, and the other 5% is during special events. Kids don't start life by being picky, and choosing to eat nothing but Junk. They just have to be presented with the option and they learn. Teach good habits and they'll stick to it. The details can be taught later, but the habits can effect them for the rest of their lives.

whoami67

janejellyroll wrote: »

whoami67 wrote: »

I remember learning about food group boxes and, later, the food pyramid in school. I also took home ec where we learned about planning meals and cooking. I don't think there was much else. My school didn't serve food...we brought our own lunches up until high school. The high school did have some food for sale. There were corn dogs and pizza, but I'm not sure there was anything else. Just about everyone still brought their lunch from home and only supplemented with corn dogs if mom's lunch didn't hit the spot. In kindergarten, we did get a carton of milk for snack; I'm pretty sure it was whole milk.

I come from a long line of morbidly obese people on both sides of my family going back many generations. My mother was determined to avoid that fate for our family. She conscientiously served the healthiest meals she knew to serve at the time. Breakfast was usually oatmeal or a carton of lowfat yogurt. My lunch most days was a turkey sandwich on whole wheat bread, a piece of fruit and 1 small homemade cookie. Snack after school was a piece of fruit. Dinner was typically steamed broccoli, baked chicken breast, some brown rice or pasta or potato and a glass of skim milk. Once a week, we got to indulge in a few ounces of soda. I never got to try all the foods kids in the 1970's and 1980's loved. No pop tarts or Captain Crunch allowed. We were limited to 3 pieces of candy on Halloween.

The result was that we all grew up to be almost as obese as the previous generations who had indulged in unlimited amounts of butter, cream and sweets. And as for the next generation, I once heard my sister tell her young son that he had to finish the pizza on his plate before he ate any more french fries, much like most mothers tell their children to finish their vegetables or no dessert. I learned about nutrition from Jenny Craig back when they had classes you had to attend as part of their weight loss program. I learned more about it by trying every diet plan and fad ever invented and paying attention to how my body reacted.

All that to say, no, I don't think nutrition should be taught in school. I mostly think we learn these things from our families and from our own experiences. I don't think the schools are even managing to teach reading, writing and arithmetic competently. I don't think we know enough about nutrition or how individuals react to certain ways of eating to teach it. I certainly don't agree at all with the standard American diet that the average dietitian would be teaching. Their "education" would simply be a recipe for diabetes, heart disease and obesity. I'm quite sure public school nutrition education would be equivalent to the American Heart Association putting their logo on KFC boxes.

The current US dietary recommendations are based on reducing the risk of diabetes, heart disease, and obesity based on what we currently know about outcomes related to nutrition. Unfortunately, even the best designed diet isn't going to significantly reduce obesity-related illness if too many calories are still consumed overall.

That said, I don't think it would be harmful to provide basic nutritional information based on current US guidelines. This would be information like make half your plates fruits and vegetables (with a focus on whole fruit), make sure to include whole grains in your grain selections, eat a variety of protein-containing foods, and be aware of added sugar and sodium in the foods you're choosing. I'm not sure how this could be harmful, to be honest.

The current US dietary recommendations have resulted in an explosion of diabetes, heart disease and obesity, so clearly they are wrong. And Americans have changed their diets over the decades to comply more closely with those guidelines. We were healthier before.

You do have the issue that, for example, only about 1/3 of people need to be cautious of how much sodium is in their food. For another 1/3 it has no effect. And for the final 1/3, they need higher levels of sodium. Never mind that the USDA guidelines on how much sodium to eat were basically pulled out of thin air. And then you have issues like the Journal of the American College of Cardiology's latest meta analysis of studies on saturated fat concluding that oops, we've been wrong all these years, it doesn't need to be limited and eating too little actually increases the risk for stroke. Or just the whole debacle of eggs are bad for us; no eggs are good for us; no maybe eggs are okay, but don't eat too many; no, you can eat as many as you want. Or studies showing we must eat nonfat dairy to lose weight pitted against studies that show eating full fat dairy will help us lose weight. And as a celiac who can't tolerate fruit sugar, I'd be pretty sick if you told me I had to eat most whole grains or fill half my plate with sugary fruit.

If you want to teach kids that Coca Cola and McDonalds aren't particularly nutritious, I'm all for it, but I guarantee you any nutrition program put into the public schools is going to be sponsored by Coca Cola and McDonalds and all anyone will be taught is that they are a healthy part of a varied diet.

heybales

whoami67 wrote: »

The current US dietary recommendations have resulted in an explosion of diabetes, heart disease and obesity, so clearly they are wrong. And Americans have changed their diets over the decades to comply more closely with those guidelines. We were healthier before.

If you want to teach kids that Coca Cola and McDonalds aren't particularly nutritious, I'm all for it, but I guarantee you any nutrition program put into the public schools is going to be sponsored by Coca Cola and McDonalds and all anyone will be taught is that they are a healthy part of a varied diet.

To the bolded - they have?

I hear these claims on past recommendation styles too. Never seen a study that occurred proving such.

But where is the survey that says people in any decent number actually followed or attempted to these guidelines?
Even beyond people answering they have when they may have no clue if they really are, or know they actually are not - where's the beyond-a-survey verification of what people are actually eating or have knowledge of these guidelines?