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COVID19 - To Vaccinate or To Not Vaccinate
Replies
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pfeiferlindsey wrote: »hobbitses333 wrote: »Poison will not heal. Over 99% recovery rate world wide. If you die after getting the vaccine your life insurance is null too because its experimental. Give your insurer a call first.
The constantly quoted 99% recovery rate as an argument against lockdowns, masks and vaccines drive me nuts. As if the end point of survival is the only metric to be used. Do people see that the hospitalization rate is much, much higher than that, and that our health care systems are overwhelmed? Did they not see what happened in Europe and New York City in the first wave? People who end up in the hospital with severe Covid sometimes have to stay in ICU for weeks. People are dying from cancer and other illnesses because they can't get treatment when the hospitals are full. All these "I'll take my chances with a 1% death rate" people literally drive me insane.
All of that aside (and don't worry, I completely agree with you), people also fail to see that 1% of 328.2 million people is over 3 million dead. That would be devastating to our country and our economy. We don't want it to run rampant.
Yep! I have a coworker who just lost her father to Covid the other day. Most young and healthy people will be fine but what about older or sicker people? The death rate is much higher for people over 60, 70, and 80. I’m sure most people have a parent or grandparent they care about.
Not only that, when our hospitals were impacted a few months ago a lot of other people had their other care delayed like elective surgeries and things.
People need to stop being so selfish and think about people besides themselves.
My husband had an urgent health issue arise right around the time the hospitals starting filling up. Something that would have normally warranted at least a night of observation, pain meds, and further testing. He was sent home with a "good luck" and instructions to take Advil. That was fun.6 -
hobbitses333 wrote: »@hobbitses333 please provide link to the official ingredient list of any of the covid-19 vaccines then, and we'll discuss.
Vaccines are hardly experimental concoctions (at least not any more than other medicines).
List of metals/chemical elements in the multivitamin I take currently (might not meet chemical classification of heavy metal, I'm no chemist): magnesium, iron, iodine, copper, manganese, chromium, selenium and zinc. All healthy and necessary. Can't really compare these to the ingredient list of a vaccine without seeing it, though. These are all recommended by my public healthcare provider who doesn't get a dime from the vitamins I buy, and who very much has an interest in keeping me and my unborn child healthy so my child will one day become a tax-paying citizen who can do their part to keep the society and economy running.
I am not here to do the research for you just to point out that you may need to do some. The ingredient list for vaccine is available at your fingertips if you want it, try the CDC website though it is rife with proapganda, and when looking up the definitions of the ingredients I suggest you use duck duck go..I can assure you it is much different than your multivitamin.
Vitamins are also not vaccines with ingredients such as Potassium chloride, Sodium chloride, Monobasic potassium phosphate, Dibasic sodium phosphate dehydrate etc, aluminum Though you may want to look into what they are using as fillers in those vitamins while you are doing research as a precaution. Congrats and good luck with your baby. Note if you spoon-fed your child the ingredients in the vaccines you may be planning to give them you would be jailed, but if a vaccine injures you or your child the makers are not liable. Fair game.
hobbitses333 wrote: »@hobbitses333 please provide link to the official ingredient list of any of the covid-19 vaccines then, and we'll discuss.
Vaccines are hardly experimental concoctions (at least not any more than other medicines).
List of metals/chemical elements in the multivitamin I take currently (might not meet chemical classification of heavy metal, I'm no chemist): magnesium, iron, iodine, copper, manganese, chromium, selenium and zinc. All healthy and necessary. Can't really compare these to the ingredient list of a vaccine without seeing it, though. These are all recommended by my public healthcare provider who doesn't get a dime from the vitamins I buy, and who very much has an interest in keeping me and my unborn child healthy so my child will one day become a tax-paying citizen who can do their part to keep the society and economy running.
I am not here to do the research for you just to point out that you may need to do some. The ingredient list for vaccine is available at your fingertips if you want it, try the CDC website though it is rife with proapganda, and when looking up the definitions of the ingredients I suggest you use duck duck go..I can assure you it is much different than your multivitamin.
Vitamins are also not vaccines with ingredients such as Potassium chloride, Sodium chloride, Monobasic potassium phosphate, Dibasic sodium phosphate dehydrate etc, aluminum Though you may want to look into what they are using as fillers in those vitamins while you are doing research as a precaution. Congrats and good luck with your baby. Note if you spoon-fed your child the ingredients in the vaccines you may be planning to give them you would be jailed, but if a vaccine injures you or your child the makers are not liable. Fair game.
You do realize that dosage matters? If I drank 2 gallons of clean water non stop, it can become toxic to the body.hobbitses333 wrote: »@hobbitses333 please provide link to the official ingredient list of any of the covid-19 vaccines then, and we'll discuss.
Vaccines are hardly experimental concoctions (at least not any more than other medicines).
List of metals/chemical elements in the multivitamin I take currently (might not meet chemical classification of heavy metal, I'm no chemist): magnesium, iron, iodine, copper, manganese, chromium, selenium and zinc. All healthy and necessary. Can't really compare these to the ingredient list of a vaccine without seeing it, though. These are all recommended by my public healthcare provider who doesn't get a dime from the vitamins I buy, and who very much has an interest in keeping me and my unborn child healthy so my child will one day become a tax-paying citizen who can do their part to keep the society and economy running.
I am not here to do the research for you just to point out that you may need to do some. The ingredient list for vaccine is available at your fingertips if you want it, try the CDC website though it is rife with proapganda, and when looking up the definitions of the ingredients I suggest you use duck duck go..I can assure you it is much different than your multivitamin.
Vitamins are also not vaccines with ingredients such as Potassium chloride, Sodium chloride, Monobasic potassium phosphate, Dibasic sodium phosphate dehydrate etc, aluminum Though you may want to look into what they are using as fillers in those vitamins while you are doing research as a precaution. Congrats and good luck with your baby. Note if you spoon-fed your child the ingredients in the vaccines you may be planning to give them you would be jailed, but if a vaccine injures you or your child the makers are not liable. Fair game.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
24 -
hobbitses333 wrote: »Poison will not heal. Over 99% recovery rate world wide. If you die after getting the vaccine your life insurance is null too because its experimental. Give your insurer a call first.
The constantly quoted 99% recovery rate as an argument against lockdowns, masks and vaccines drive me nuts. As if the end point of survival is the only metric to be used. Do people see that the hospitalization rate is much, much higher than that, and that our health care systems are overwhelmed? Did they not see what happened in Europe and New York City in the first wave? People who end up in the hospital with severe Covid sometimes have to stay in ICU for weeks. People are dying from cancer and other illnesses because they can't get treatment when the hospitals are full. All these "I'll take my chances with a 1% death rate" people literally drive me insane.
Not to mention an uncomfortable number of survivors, who may not even have gotten sick enough to worry about surviving, have damaged lungs. We have no idea how common it is because many people never sought advanced medical care, but some individual hospitals doing their own research have been shocked by the chest scans of patients who recovered from mild covid.
Then you could talk about the people with long covid, who also typically had only mild illness when they were infected, and many of whom haven't even been diagnosed yet.
Then there are all the Americans with no insurance or high deductible health plans, who "survived" but now have thousands of dollars of medical debt. And the families who went into debt to pay to bury multiple elderly family members and deal with the medical bills they left behind.
And that's the long term effects we know about barely one year out. We have no idea what the long term outcomes for "survivors" are. The long term psychological effects on the black communities that were hit so hard. The long term effects on ER and ICU doctors and nurses that have watched over the over half million deaths in this country while trying to stay distant from their own families in case they got infected.
The lack of compassion and basic human decency in order to hold tight to an illogical tangle of conspiracy theories is infuriating.21 -
NorthCascades wrote: »hobbitses333 wrote: »I have just as much right to voice my findings on this subject as anyone here.
"Findings" 🙄
As in, "I found it on the internet". Silly!6 -
There is lots of data now and the data show that the vaccines prevent severe disease and hospitalization at a rate of 95%. I have been studying all of the vaccine trials and data since they came out and they all look promising.
The vaccine is an mRNA one and can’t make you sick. All it can do just like any other vaccine is stimulate an immune response. This is physiology. There is really no harm in taking it. Even people with serious allergic reactions to other things can premeditate prior.
I work in the ER, already had Covid, and am high risk for catching it again so I got vaccinated in January and February. I’m pregnant also but felt this was the best decision and my OB agreed. All of the physicians and PAs I work with also got vaccinated and about half of the nurses did too.
I really don’t understand the apprehension behind the vaccine. The whole argument that it was rushed makes no sense. Of course it came out faster, because the whole world was working on developing it. That’s what happens when scientists put forth a world wide effort on something.
As a health care worker, I am a firm believer in vaccines. There haven’t been any vaccines in the history of vaccines that have been proven to do any real harm to people. Side effects are exceedingly rare and when they do occur could just as easily occur from catching the actual virus the disease is designed to prevent. Vaccines have saved lives over the years and will continue to do so.
I have also seen many flu related deaths over the years which could be prevented if more people get vaccinated. Vaccination is not only about protecting yourself but others.
Congratulations!
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As of the published first-month report, of the post-vaccine events reported to VAERS in the US, there were 113 deaths, after 13,794,904 doses being administered. Reporting to VAERS doesn't inherently imply causality, just post-vaccine occurrence. Those that had been assessed did not find the vaccine to be the cause of death, though some analyses were still pending at the time of that publication. With early numbers like that, I'm not even remotely concerned about whether my life insurance will pay out if I die from the vaccine. Others can make their own decisions about whether to phone their agent or not, but I'm not going to bother.
Regarding post-vaccine deaths: it's worth remembering that the majority of people who've been getting vaccines so far are elderly or have other risk factors, so they are more likely to die anyway (harsh, but true). Here in Finland someone panic started spreading about elderly people dying soon after taking the vaccine. Yeah, it sucks, but it was quickly pointed out that the amount of deaths in that age group in that time period was in line with the statistical amount of deaths in that age group in general, they just happened to die of unrelated causes soon after taking the vaccine.
The vaccine prevents covid-19, not deaths from other causes.
I did read that some people who are very, very ill and frail could be "pushed over the edge" to death by the vaccine. So in those cases for sure it would make sense to balance the benefits and risks. I believe that these would be people that are already near death so one would expect that there would be a number of factors that could unfortunately hasten that.
Agreed. The cynical side in me would want to balance the benefit of giving these very ill and frail people the vaccine vs. giving it to someone younger and healthier who could likely have more healthy living years "saved" by the vaccine. I'm really happy it's not my job to make these ethical considerations and decisions.
Funny my mom is 87 and lives in a congregate seniors setting so she was prioritized for the vaccine. She kept telling me "I don't know why they are giving it to me first, why don't they give it to you young people who have to go out to work."
I tried to explain to her that the risk was higher where she was without scaring her (we had so very many seniors die here in Ontario in long term care it was heartbreaking). Finally I just told her she has to take it and if she refused it's not like they would give it to us anyway.
Yup. I’m convinced the people deciding the vaccine orders have had some very difficult discussions and weighed multiple viewpoints to find an ethical and effective balance. Just glad it’s not my job. Lately I’ve been entertaining myself by reading the open-letter section of a major newspaper, it’s mostly thinkpieces of why group X, Y or Z should be prioritized in getting vaccinated. Most of them have some variation of ”why is nobody thinking of XYZ” in them - I’m pretty sure that has been thought of, but something else was simply more critical.
Besides that, with which I agree, some of the opinion pieces I've seen about prioritizing groups are IMO not thinking through the complexity of this whole enterprise, and the practicality cost of further complicating it.
I'm sure that the priority orders could productively fine-tuned in some ways, nothing is perfect, and it had to be put together quite quickly. But even with the order we have (where I am, anyway), questions arise about how one verifies that a person is in a particular priority group, either when they sign up or when they arrive for the shot.
For example, I could claim that I have COPD (because I have a CT scan report saying that I do). The sign up sites have a box to check for it (I didn't). How is this verified? Do they take my word? Do I have to prove it?
Some groups here have been given priority by offering shots through their workplace (health care workers, teachers). If we want to extend this to other front-line occupational groups like (say) grocery workers or hairdressers or massage therapists, how do we do that? They aren't concentrated in big workplaces, some don't have licenses to show, etc.
Nearly any subgroup to be given priority raises issues like this. If we take people's word, that can be enabling line jumping. If we don't take their word, it makes the process more complicated, maybe requires complicated questionnaire systems for sign-up, possibly slows down the check-in process at the vaccination sites, etc.
I suspect that even if we could identify a perfect, nuanced priority, it could be a nightmare to administer; and if we set up priorities that are easy to administer, it may not be very nuanced.
The opinion pieces I've seen about priorities have mostly been about "fairness" or something like that, but don't seem to consider practicality of administration within a huge, nationwide process.1 -
Since this thread is now in Debate, I'll say something that I thought when I first read it, but didn't say.
This document is so well constructed that I think it's intentional disinformation, carefully planned to isolate some facts that sound ominous, most or all of which will check out as strictly true, based on sound sources. They're put together in a way that cleverly implies a larger untruth.
It's just too good a job, as a propaganda piece, to be an accident. I think it's a document intentionally created to mislead, deceive, stir up fear and controversy. It's a sales job.
I removed the attribution to any particular poster here, because I don't think that's relevant to my point at all. I think it came here from someone who was convinced by it (or other similar material).
I'll leave it up to others to make their own judgements about the source organization, Pennsylvania Coalition for Informed Consent (PCIC). (The URL in the document image, which is cut off and hard to read, ends in PA, in case you want to go there.)
The web site's "about" info and contact info is all very non-personal, post office boxes, generic email address, contact forms to communicate with them, couldn't find any actual people's names, like officials of the organization, for example. Many (most? all?) of the blog posts show "Steering Team" as the author, with no clear indication of who that is.
The "about" page says they're not anti-vaccine, but a pro-personal choice. Their helpful links and resources appear strongly slanted toward anti-vaccine sources. It's not Covid-specific.
They have a list of local chapters, and those are just generic email addresses, too. One county chapter (Butler) has an additional link for donations for "informative billboards", that just leads to a Paypal "give money" link with no additional information or other explanation on it.
Their "partners" list is a small group of chiropractors and wholistic/integrative health practitioners/clinics (there are some specific people's names there, and phone numbers, street addresses, etc.).
That's what I found at the web site, stated as objectively/neutrally as I can manage, given that I do have an opinion.
Some of my opinion: IMO, that's not what legit, transparent organizations' web sites look like. Not even close.30 -
Well I look it like this .
We already no what happens to people when they don't get it so .
If I can avoid getting the virus then yes vaccine me .7 -
There is lots of data now and the data show that the vaccines prevent severe disease and hospitalization at a rate of 95%. I have been studying all of the vaccine trials and data since they came out and they all look promising.
The vaccine is an mRNA one and can’t make you sick. All it can do just like any other vaccine is stimulate an immune response. This is physiology. There is really no harm in taking it. Even people with serious allergic reactions to other things can premeditate prior.
I work in the ER, already had Covid, and am high risk for catching it again so I got vaccinated in January and February. I’m pregnant also but felt this was the best decision and my OB agreed. All of the physicians and PAs I work with also got vaccinated and about half of the nurses did too.
I really don’t understand the apprehension behind the vaccine. The whole argument that it was rushed makes no sense. Of course it came out faster, because the whole world was working on developing it. That’s what happens when scientists put forth a world wide effort on something.
As a health care worker, I am a firm believer in vaccines. There haven’t been any vaccines in the history of vaccines that have been proven to do any real harm to people. Side effects are exceedingly rare and when they do occur could just as easily occur from catching the actual virus the disease is designed to prevent. Vaccines have saved lives over the years and will continue to do so.
I have also seen many flu related deaths over the years which could be prevented if more people get vaccinated. Vaccination is not only about protecting yourself but others.
Congratulations!
Thank you ❤️1 -
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Throughout the pandemic, the US COVID mortality rate has steadily hovered around 0.017%
Since deploying the vaccine, the average mortality rate hasn't changed.
With or without the vaccine, COVID has a 99.98% survival rate.
Those aren't bad odds.7 -
This was the only thing I saw on life insurance in US
“The insurance lobbying group American Council of Life Insurers (ACLI) spokesperson Jack Dolan also confirmed to Snopes in an email that receiving the COVID-19 immunization will have no effect on life insurance in the U.S. — and even in instances of experimental drugs, life insurers have to pay death claims.” https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/covid-vaccine-life-insurance/
I work in healthcare and got first Moderna shot last week. I trust the science behind vaccines.11 -
Analog_Kid wrote: »Throughout the pandemic, the US COVID mortality rate has steadily hovered around 0.017%
Since deploying the vaccine, the average mortality rate hasn't changed.
With or without the vaccine, COVID has a 99.98% survival rate.
Those aren't bad odds.
We don't know how many people have been infected with enough precision to be able to say what you just did.
How does that made up number treat people being infected multiple times and having progressively worse outcomes from subsequent infections?
The 1918 flu was just the flu you know.11 -
Analog_Kid wrote: »Throughout the pandemic, the US COVID mortality rate has steadily hovered around 0.017%
Since deploying the vaccine, the average mortality rate hasn't changed.
With or without the vaccine, COVID has a 99.98% survival rate.
Those aren't bad odds.
Could you show your source for this please?
When I looked I found a mortality rate, for US, of almost 2% - far greater than 0.017%, on a population level
This appears overall mortality rate - obviously higher in at risk groups - ie age, chronic medical conditions
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality - appears credible source of information.
Happy to have it refuted if not.
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US deaths in 2018 - 2,839,205 - source: US government
US deaths in 2019 - 2,854,838 - source: US government
US deaths in 2020 - no number yet, however it's estimated at 3.2 million according to https://fortune.com/2020/12/22/covid-us-deaths-3-million-all-time-high/ note that these numbers don't correlate well with the pandemic, since deaths started getting up there by late March. That means there was 2 3/4 months when deaths were pretty much at normal amounts5 -
UK persepctive where we are up to about four tenths of the adult population having received their first vaccine dose.....
Question was posed to a virologist and a professor of public health.
Q - "Do the quoted efficacy rates mean people don't get the virus or does it mean that have better outcomes if they contract the virus?"
The answer was that the definition in the clinical trails for efficacy was avoidance of severe health issues and deaths and that is being shown to be the case with clear divergence between those groups vaccinated and those who haven't.
But as more real world data is coming out comparing people vaccinated or not vaccinated with the same exposure risk it's become clear it's also making a big difference in transmission rates with people exposed not contracting the virus at all.
On a broader level comparing UK to mainland Europe where vaccine uptake has been much slower they are in a far worse situation than us whereas our death rates, infection rates and hospital admissions are declining significantly.
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Analog_Kid wrote: »Throughout the pandemic, the US COVID mortality rate has steadily hovered around 0.017%
Since deploying the vaccine, the average mortality rate hasn't changed.
With or without the vaccine, COVID has a 99.98% survival rate.
Those aren't bad odds.
Where did you get this number from? It doesn't even make sense. We've had over 22,000 deaths in Canada, which is significantly higher than 0.017% of the entire population.
8 -
Analog_Kid wrote: »Throughout the pandemic, the US COVID mortality rate has steadily hovered around 0.017%
Since deploying the vaccine, the average mortality rate hasn't changed.
With or without the vaccine, COVID has a 99.98% survival rate.
Those aren't bad odds.
Bad odds? Are you kidding me? I'll entertain your 99.98% survival rate. Out of the survival rate, we still don't know the long term impact of COVID-19. My coworker that "survived" is basically disabled at the moment. Brain swelling, heart swelling, she still has trouble breathing. She MIGHT be able to come back to work in a few weeks with restrictions if the new glasses she got for the double/blurry/prism vision helps and she's not exhausted all the time.
But yes, keep spouting that 99.98% "survive".21 -
Except for elderly people and people with higher susceptibility. I have an 87 year old dad. Not willing to chance that 1% with him. He got the vaccine and so did I and siblings.Analog_Kid wrote: »Throughout the pandemic, the US COVID mortality rate has steadily hovered around 0.017%
Since deploying the vaccine, the average mortality rate hasn't changed.
With or without the vaccine, COVID has a 99.98% survival rate.
Those aren't bad odds.
To me this is like saying that people die in car accidents whether they wear seatbelts or not. I'll take the chance that wearing a seatbelt will likely still be the safer choice than not wearing one.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
20 -
Got my first dose yesterday...I'm surprised my face hasn't melted off yet or something. My arm doesn't even hurt.12
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