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Are harsh straightforward reality checks good?
fatfish420
Posts: 11 Member
in Debate Club
This is more a musing of mine as I look back at what lead me to my current weight issues and one thing that always sticks out is the number of people who would tell me I still looked good or wasn't that overweight. these compliments came when I was well over 300 pounds but stopped shortly before getting to my peak of 420. I have wondered if someone had just taken the time to tell 20 something your old me you are gaining way too much weight would currently 32 year old me be a lot healthier.
So the thesis question is when it comes to people's health should we be a bit more blunt and honest about their weight gain?
So the thesis question is when it comes to people's health should we be a bit more blunt and honest about their weight gain?
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Replies
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Ah.....crossing the fine line. I don't know if you'll get many takers here. People are SO sensitive. It's hard to believe that you didn't know you were very overweight. I don't throw out compliments that aren't true, but I also don't volunteer comments on someones flaws. I need my friends.20
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Honest - yes.
Blunt is just one delivery style and I would say that's a maybe. That will work for some but not others.
I blamed the driver who mangled my leg (with a lot of justification) for my weight gain but no-one was brave enough to point out it was me putting too much food into my cake hole for the following 20 years that kept me overweight.
I wish someone had spoken up during my fat 20 years but hand on heart I don't know how I would have received it or how I would have reacted. A lot would no doubt have depended on who challenged me.7 -
snowflake954 wrote: »Ah.....crossing the fine line. I don't know if you'll get many takers here. People are SO sensitive. It's hard to believe that you didn't know you were very overweight. I don't throw out compliments that aren't true, but I also don't volunteer comments on someones flaws. I need my friends.
Oh I most certainly knew but if everyone tells you that you look good are you going to get motivated to change it is kind of what I am getting at. plus no one can tell me the didn't notice I gained at a rate of just over 20lbs a year to get to my maxHonest - yes.
Blunt is just one delivery style and I would say that's a maybe. That will work for some but not others.
I blamed the driver who mangled my leg (with a lot of justification) for my weight gain but no-one was brave enough to point out it was me putting too much food into my cake hole for the following 20 years that kept me overweight.
I wish someone had spoken up during my fat 20 years but hand on heart I don't know how I would have received it or how I would have reacted. A lot would no doubt have depended on who challenged me.
and that last part is why I this is an interesting musing to me. would I have received it well blunt or how would I have received it in general even if someone put it as nicely as possible. I know I resented people even in the moment who said I looked fine when I was over 300lbs because I knew I didn't.4 -
Criticisms and compliments aren't about you. Self-worth can't be built on compliments. Relying on willpower just primes the pump for rebound weight gain with friends. Change your approach. Don't overthink it.
No one has to live in our body. There's too much shame and blame attached to food choices. Adults and children like structure and routines. When we start flying by the seat of our pants, new or old healthy habits fly right out the window. Tiny steps for tiny feet.
Daily steps make our habits stick. Set some boundaries and don't leave yourself wide open to the mercy of peoples opinions. You'll be brought low by their criticism or jack yourself UP with compliments. What people think of you says nothing about you but only speaks of the way they are experiencing you.
Don't be moved by compliments or criticism. Let neither deter you or move you towards your goals.
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I'm extremely blunt, but what I say to people comes from a genuine caring place. The honesty and genuine, respectful care is what really matters, not how harsh it is being said.
I told a dear, wonderful friend this morning that he has demonstrated "an epic level of dumbf*^k stupidity" in terms of a really bad decision he made. But he knows this is my way of expressing love and support.
It's the caring honesty that really matters. The delivery style is just a personality thing.
If the person doesn't feel cared for by the person offering constructive criticism, then it won't feel constructive, and will likely just contribute to their already existing self esteem issues. And lower self worth and lower self esteem have rarely helped anyone with committing to long term healthy changes.
So maybe, if at 20 someone had lovingly taken you aside (whatever lovingly looks like to that person), and expressed concern over your weight, and taken a genuine interest as to what was driving your weight gain, and offered a compassionate understanding as to why you were eating in a way that caused gain? Yes, perhaps that might have made a difference for you in a positive way.
But chances are that if someone took poor 20 year old you aside and made you feel less-than because of your weight, it would likely have driven a downward spiral of self esteem and made any emotional eating issues you had even worse.
Shaming people rarely inspires better well being in them.
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If the person doesn't feel cared for by the person offering constructive criticism, then it won't feel constructive, and will likely just contribute to their already existing self esteem issues. And lower self worth and lower self esteem have rarely helped anyone with committing to long term healthy changes.
Truth.
I'm not afraid of offending the people I care about, but if I'm not involved enough to be a part of the solution it's not really my role to observe the problem. I naturally lean into the positive side of things.4 -
But chances are that if someone took poor 20 year old you aside and made you feel less-than because of your weight, it would likely have driven a downward spiral of self esteem and made any emotional eating issues you had even worse.
Shaming people rarely inspires better well being in them.
This.
I got many, many negative comments about my smoking throughout my years as a smoker. Much more socially acceptable to bash smokers. I'm not stupid, I knew it wasn't a healthy behaviour. The price just kept going up and up, and I hated the amount of money I was spending on it. Yet despite all this I kept it up for 24 years.
"I have wondered if someone had just taken the time to tell 20 something your old me you are gaining way too much weight would currently 32 year old me be a lot healthier." This comment has slight undertones of externalizing blame... not taking responsibility for your own actions and perceptions. Were you really not capable of realizing that your weight was too high without getting that feedback from others?12 -
It's not other people's job to fix me . . . nor is it mine to fix them, generally.
Should our friends and partners help and support us if we make it clear what our positive personal goals are (and should we do the same for them), even if they aren't mutually shared goals? Absolutely. People who don't do that are not truly friends, generally.
I think there are limited circumstances in which someone should be commenting on another person's body weight, when not sincerely and privately asked by that person:
* If one is their doctor or other medical, fitness, or health support person for whom the topic falls in their scope of practice with that individual.
* If it's a close relative, close friend, or intimate partner, and one is truly concerned about their health (not appearance), and bringing this up with them would not be hypocritical. "Not hypocritical" means that either one has healthier habits oneself, or that the conversation is "we are both risking our health, can we work together to improve things?" in nature.
Even then, the conversation should be caring, empathetic, and involve a lot of active listening. Most of us have a communication style, a sort of communication channel on which we can be reached. Someone who's not tuned into that can make matters worse, potentially.
Other than those situations, I think it's a minefield, inappropriate.
I agree with that observation about externalizing responsibility: It's a dodge. When I was class 1 obese, my social friends would say "you're not fat" if I happened to make an offhand comment about it in a reasonable conversational context. (Many/most of them were overweight, too, BTW.) I knew I was overweight, and it didn't occur to me to resent them for saying I wasn't, because their intention was to be nice, kind, and reassuring. To blame them for something that was meant to be kind and supportive: That doesn't make sense to me.
Like I said, it's not their job to fix me. It's mine. Eventually, with respect to body weight, I did. I wish I'd done it earlier, but it's 100% on me that I didn't, no one else.14 -
It's not other people's job to fix me . . . nor is it mine to fix them, generally.
Should our friends and partners help and support us if we make it clear what our positive personal goals are (and should we do the same for them), even if they aren't mutually shared goals? Absolutely. People who don't do that are not truly friends, generally.
I think there are limited circumstances in which someone should be commenting on another person's body weight, when not sincerely and privately asked by that person:
* If one is their doctor or other medical, fitness, or health support person for whom the topic falls in their scope of practice with that individual.
* If it's a close relative, close friend, or intimate partner, and one is truly concerned about their health (not appearance), and bringing this up with them would not be hypocritical. "Not hypocritical" means that either one has healthier habits oneself, or that the conversation is "we are both risking our health, can we work together to improve things?" in nature.
Even then, the conversation should be caring, empathetic, and involve a lot of active listening. Most of us have a communication style, a sort of communication channel on which we can be reached. Someone who's not tuned into that can make matters worse, potentially.
Other than those situations, I think it's a minefield, inappropriate.
I agree with that observation about externalizing responsibility: It's a dodge. When I was class 1 obese, my social friends would say "you're not fat" if I happened to make an offhand comment about it in a reasonable conversational context. (Many/most of them were overweight, too, BTW.) I knew I was overweight, and it didn't occur to me to resent them for saying I wasn't, because their intention was to be nice, kind, and reassuring. To blame them for something that was meant to be kind and supportive: That doesn't make sense to me.
Like I said, it's not their job to fix me. It's mine. Eventually, with respect to body weight, I did. I wish I'd done it earlier, but it's 100% on me that I didn't, no one else.
Truth.
When I was obese so many people insisted I couldn't possibly be obese and that I looked great. I carried the weight very well esthetically. Never needed plus sized clothes, often wearing a "medium" or size 8. Which to be fair, thanks to vanity sizing would have been plus sizes in the 90s. But point being, I had what most people these days would think is a healthy, curvy body. Picture Joan from Mad Men.
To this day I'm fine with my appearance back then, but people's personal opinions about my appearance don't get to define whether or not I'm obese. I was. I was obese and I wasn't healthy.
No body type trend was going to change that. Nobody reassuring me that I was pretty was going to convince me that carrying an uncomfortable amount of excess fat was a good idea.
I've been told many, MANY times since I lost a lot of weight that I looked better before losing so much and that I "went too far" with my weight loss and that I "got too thin."
I got the most positive feedback at a BMI around 27, or overweight. Many men in particular have insisted I should go back to that weight. As if I cared about their opinions.
I simply do not let the esthetic preferences of others dictate my autonomous health decisions.
These are simply unrelated things.12 -
I watched a TV Program where they did an experiment on good praise vs negative feedback.
They asked 2 groups of people to spin a plate on a stick, and then a panel of 3 people appraised the performance.
Group 1 - whether they were good or bad, they received good praise.
Group 2 - whether they were good or bad, the received critique and poor feedback.
They then asked the groups to come back and try again.
Group 1 performed much better, able to spin the plate for much longer then the first round.
Group 2 did a lot worse! People who span the plate amazingly in the first round, now couldn't do it at all.
It was crazy to watch. Me personally, being negatively critiqued removes my energy and makes me feel a bit hopeless.
I'm a big believer now that positive praise and support will always encourage better performance in a person. So no, I don't believe that by any of us being told to lose weight it would help us at all. If anything, it might lead to a downward spiral. I think we'd all do much better at reaching our goals with positive support and unconditional love.
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Hmmm, good question. I think blunt observations from others would've sent me spiraling faster down the overweight rabbit hole, only because it would've made me feel that much worse than I already did. But OTOH, having someone come right out and say it to my face, I might've thought 'I'll show them'.
I did not appreciate all the comments such as 'oh you're tall, you can carry the extra weight' or 'why are you trying to lose weight, you look great', when I knew how I felt in my own body and that was what I needed to take care of, for myself. It always felt so condescending to me.
In the end, I think you need to know your audience, your relationship with that person, and be able to speak frankly with love. It's hard to predict how the other person will accept any comments though so it's best to stay neutral. JMO4 -
I dunno. I think it's not okay to make comments on other peoples' bodies ever - unless they point blank ask me, (which no one ever would IMO) "Do you think I'm fat?"
That said: I didn't see myself as fat. I was bordering on morbidly obese but I had a best friend who was bigger, we centered our lives around food and drink and it was just who I was. I was middle-aged and in the U.S. most middle aged women I know are over-weight so I didn't feel stigmatized; I thought that was just what happens. The mirror didn't tell me I was particularly fat even though I was wearing sizes 16-20. I was just a bit larger than I used to be.
However, one woman at work did call me a "fat @ss " after I had made a snip comment to her about something. That was enlightening. I didn't think other people thought of me as fat either.
The person who it would have made a difference is my doctor. I respected her. She never mentioned my weight - she just kept giving me pills and referrals for my physical complaints. As it turns out, all my medical issues cleared up when I lost the weight. Who knew?? I am still mad about that, 14 years later! She could have encouraged me to get healthier on my own instead of throwing pills at me.10 -
As a general thing, people who are fat know they are fat. Telling them they are fat is not really an effective thing. Expressing concern for the entire person and their mental and physical health, but you need to KNOW that person well enough to be concerned for THEM - sincerely concerned - otherwise you're achieving nothing.
And honestly if anyone came at me with 'blunt statements' and 'harsh truths' about my weight I'd probably have just felt picked on and ticked off. People vary but the ability to do something about my weight had to come from ME being concerned about my mental and physical health. No one else was going to provide that for me.7 -
Bad in the short term but good in the long term. You may react negatively in the present but it might or will probably help you for the future.
That's my experience.0 -
Bad in the short term but good in the long term. You may react negatively in the present but it might or will probably help you for the future.
That's my experience.
That's the effect *for you*.
There are too many factors to generalize. It depends on the self esteem and level of autonomy of the person hearing the criticism, whether they have an internal or external locus of control, the intent of the person leveling the criticism, and how much the person trusts the person who is leveling the criticism.
I say this as someone who is literally a professional at criticizing people. It's a delicate artform and the approach needs to be tailored to the individual. I happen to be very, very good at motivating people to change their lifestyle habits, especially hostile people who are in no way ready to hear it, and no one approach works with everyone.9 -
This is more a musing of mine as I look back at what lead me to my current weight issues and one thing that always sticks out is the number of people who would tell me I still looked good or wasn't that overweight.
But perhaps you did still look good - one can look good at any weight after all
of course that doesnt mean you don't need to lose weight for health - but that is a different issue to appearance.
There have been umpteen threads on here about people telling others they are overweight when the person did not ask for any advice or opinion - so I think doing so is something best not done - unless you are the persons doctor or perhaps a loving close family member
Unless you ask a very direct question - do you think I am overweight? - then I guess I would say Yes and look at BMI or some objective data to suggest by how much.
I say I guess - because IRL nobody has asked me that direct question.
Did you ask people that directly?
People have asked questions like Do I look good in this? in which case I can answer things like Yes you look good, it suits you, no, I dont think it suits you etc - without mentioning their weight and usually without offending them either
So if that is the sort of question you asked or if you didnt ask a question, people just made what they thought were nice comments - then I can understand why nobody told you you were overweight, even though you obviously were.8 -
I didn’t need anyone to tell me I was fat, anymore than I needed anyone to tell me smoking was bad. I knew both of those things, I just didn’t care at the time. Some people may get the “I will show them” attitude that was mentioned, but my guess is more would get the downward spiral one.
Tl;dr is it’s no one else’s job to tell you that you need to lose weight3 -
A related problem I've had in the past is when I need to lose, say 50 lbs, for example. After I lose maybe 20 or 25 lbs, people start noticing and complimenting me, saying how good I look. Then I lose all motivation to continue and complete my goal because I subconsciouslythink I don't need to. I'm good now. Then, my weight eventually creeps back up and often ends up even higher than where I started.6
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A related problem I've had in the past is when I need to lose, say 50 lbs, for example. After I lose maybe 20 or 25 lbs, people start noticing and complimenting me, saying how good I look. Then I lose all motivation to continue and complete my goal because I subconsciouslythink I don't need to. I'm good now. Then, my weight eventually creeps back up and often ends up even higher than where I started.
That's why I always have lifestyle goals, not weight goals.8 -
Are harsh straightforward reality checks good?
Back in the late 80s early 90s I attended an art school and we were expected to critique others work and have our work critiqued by the instructor and classmates. You really had to have a thick skin because the critiques could be really harsh but if you could take your emotions out of it, there were things worth learning that would improve your work. There were some critiques born our of jealousy or the person was just malcontent so you would have to let those go. They are pretty easy to spot on what is said and how its said.
I went back to school a number of years ago and the critiques were so very different. It was really softball and you had to be really careful to preface constructive criticism with a positive spin every time. I never really saw a student in the past cry or get upset during a critique unlike my most recent college experience where it happened at least 2-3 times a semester. I had one instructor from Russia who would call out students for half-assed work which was always entertaining and reminded me of days past. There is a layer of sensitivity these days where even constructive criticism is viewed as a personal attack. There are a lot of artists out there today learning the hard way or washing out because the real world doesn't hold back.
So are harsh straightforward reality checks good? For me yes they are but I was raised differently than a lot of younger folks today. If you are not used to a harsh critique then maybe they are not for you. I've learned to hold back some unless I really know the person and they are open to constructive criticism. I don't think anyone can be as critical of my work or my weight as I am so I've probably heard it all before but it can be a good reminder to hear it from another. Also you can either take what is said to heart and use it for motivation or not.6 -
Are harsh straightforward reality checks good?
Back in the late 80s early 90s I attended an art school and we were expected to critique others work and have our work critiqued by the instructor and classmates. You really had to have a thick skin because the critiques could be really harsh but if you could take your emotions out of it, there were things worth learning that would improve your work. There were some critiques born our of jealousy or the person was just malcontent so you would have to let those go. They are pretty easy to spot on what is said and how its said.
I went back to school a number of years ago and the critiques were so very different. It was really softball and you had to be really careful to preface constructive criticism with a positive spin every time. I never really saw a student in the past cry or get upset during a critique unlike my most recent college experience where it happened at least 2-3 times a semester. I had one instructor from Russia who would call out students for half-assed work which was always entertaining and reminded me of days past. There is a layer of sensitivity these days where even constructive criticism is viewed as a personal attack. There are a lot of artists out there today learning the hard way or washing out because the real world doesn't hold back.
So are harsh straightforward reality checks good? For me yes they are but I was raised differently than a lot of younger folks today. If you are not used to a harsh critique then maybe they are not for you. I've learned to hold back some unless I really know the person and they are open to constructive criticism. I don't think anyone can be as critical of my work or my weight as I am so I've probably heard it all before but it can be a good reminder to hear it from another. Also you can either take what is said to heart and use it for motivation or not.
I think there is a distinct difference between a critique of your work vs. a critique of your physical appearance. Yes, people can be very emotionally attached to something they have produced, especially a work of art, but it's still different.
I agree with you that people often need to take the emotion out of honest, constructive criticism when it comes to work, sports activities, and creative endeavors.
But, I don't think that unsolicited "constructive criticism" of someone's body or physical traits is ever appropriate. Someone reacting negatively to such criticism is not being overly sensitive. "Unsolicited" being the key word here...if someone ASKS for your honest opinion, then they should be prepared for an honest answer.11 -
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »But, I don't think that unsolicited "constructive criticism" of someone's body or physical traits is ever appropriate. Someone reacting negatively to such criticism is not being overly sensitive. "Unsolicited" being the key word here...if someone ASKS for your honest opinion, then they should be prepared for an honest answer.
Yeah I agree with your statement. Unsolicited criticism isn't really welcome even in art but it happens all the time so its worth learning how to deal with it. Many times its just a troll and the best thing to do is not feed them nor take what they say to heart. It can be very hard to do, I know I've had my fair share of art critics and people who've commented on my appearance as well.1 -
I created my own hole to slip into. Alcohol abuse. I would go on a binge for weeks- months- years and the weight would go up and up and up until the next dose of reality would set in. Then it was daily exercise, clean eating and grudges against booze and boozers. Rerun the script over and over again. Then it was back on the wagon and I would post on alcoholism support sites that I had just completed xx sober days. The congratulations would follow from others, but I would have much rather have a kick in the pants than the hugs for slipping.3
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I'm going to say something that's not popular, but I'm saying it anyway. Since people here are talking about wanting 'harsh, straightforward reality checks' maybe I can provide one.
I feel like people saying 'I need the kick in the pants' 'I need 'reality checks' 'I don't want hugs, I want harsh reality' are not actually saying what they think they are.
I think what they believe they are saying is 'I'm tough and can take it'.
What they are actually saying - to me - is 'let me make my weight/addictions/personal problems everyone else's responsibility'.
You're an adult. If you have a problem with your weight or whatever it's YOUR responsibility to kick YOURSeLF in your own pants. Not blame other people for being *NICE* to you.28 -
IDK...my wife expressed concern over my health when I was over-fat, but that concern wasn't solely about my weight...weight was only one aspect of the concern. When I was getting fat, nobody needed to tell me I was getting fat. I have a mirror and I could see what I looked like in pictures. When I started the weight loss process I did get some comments in regards to why...I wasn't that fat, etc. But those comments were also from people who were over-fat and frankly being overweight is far more the norm than being healthy and fit and relative to some of those commenters, I wasn't as fat as they were...but I was still obese class I by medical standards and looked the part aesthetically as well.
I was lean, healthy, and fit for most of my life and a competitive athlete for a good chunk of my young life as well. I put on my fat body in my 30s when I settled down with family and career ambitions. Having lived in both worlds, I was never in any kind of denial about what was happening to me and ultimately decided that I preferred my previous lean, healthy, and fit self who was physically capable and all around healthy.5 -
I think it depends on who it is coming from. A doctor -- usually OK. Other than that, there are very very few people in my life where I think it would go well. Even though I KNOW that I am overweight and that I felt better and was healthier when I was lower weight and eating healthy. Hearing it from someone else is likely to just re-enforce how much I feel like a failure right now, and not make anything any easier.2
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I think it depends on who it is coming from. A doctor -- usually OK. Other than that, there are very very few people in my life where I think it would go well. Even though I KNOW that I am overweight and that I felt better and was healthier when I was lower weight and eating healthy. Hearing it from someone else is likely to just re-enforce how much I feel like a failure right now, and not make anything any easier.
No, not usually.
I can't tell you how many patients I've had get angry at me for telling them that their blood pressure is high.
Like, that's just an objective fact and something I'm legally obligated to express concern about, but nope, somehow I'm a judgemental a-hole for telling them. And GOD FORBID I mention their weight.
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IMO, the "is it a good thing" really boils down to the conversation and what that person is asking/talking about. Solicited vs unsolicited conversations/questions.
I'm not going to blow smoke up your you-know-what, but I'm not going to provide unsolicited criticism, either. For example, my mother has always been rather unfit, and has a gazillion reasons, excuses, and jumps through hoops to justify her perspective. I am not going to voluntarily tell her the truth - however - if she is talking to me about it, and ASKS me why she can't lose weight (or whatever), well, she's asked for it, and I will provide her with the answers. I have a background in fitness and nutrition, both personally and through formal study, so I approach it very much from the facts side of things as opposed to the feelings side of things, but she still doesn't like to hear it because she'd rather hear why her justifications are right (even though, in this case, even her doctors are telling her the same thing).
So, it can be a catch 22, but if someone asks, I will provide an honest (nice, but honest) answer. I will also try to provide some ideas on solutions.
Just calling someone out who isn't asking me anything - that I won't do, it's their life and their choices, and they aren't asking me for my input.6 -
Pretty sure if my husband was harsh and truthful, the marriage would have ended in divorce.
I knew I was fat when I crossed that 160ish threshold. My clothes didn't fit, I no longer looked good. That didn't deter me from the climb to 207.
Someone telling me I was fat wouldn't have made a bit of difference. I needed to become fed up with being fat and out of shape. Getting winded climbing the stairs. Struggling to finish a 1 mile walk with the dog.
This is my change, for me, not for anyone other than myself (well maybe my hubby as I would like to live a long life in retirement).
I got fat on my own. I can get fit on my own. Support is nice too!8 -
fatfish420 wrote: »This is more a musing of mine as I look back at what lead me to my current weight issues and one thing that always sticks out is the number of people who would tell me I still looked good or wasn't that overweight. these compliments came when I was well over 300 pounds but stopped shortly before getting to my peak of 420. I have wondered if someone had just taken the time to tell 20 something your old me you are gaining way too much weight would currently 32 year old me be a lot healthier.
So the thesis question is when it comes to people's health should we be a bit more blunt and honest about their weight gain?
I can tell you if someone had mentioned to me, in late 2018, that I was gaining weight, I would have been furious and I would have been a little more than blunt in return.
It would have been an entirely inappropriate comment and would not have had a positive response in any way.
For someone to understand my reaction, someone would have to know my background. If someone doesn't know my background, any such comments are off limits.
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