Imagining Our Bodies as a Relational Construct: You and Me

shel80kg

You are not what I intended you to be. You are large and have layers of fat which I did anticipate. You don't fit into any of my nice clothes and you hurt when I move. Getting you in and out of chairs and sofas and cars; to say nothing of stairs and steps......well, let me just say that you remind me of how you have changed and I don't know you. I am afraid of taking you to the beach. I fear that someone from Green Peace will try and rescue you. Do I accept you? Do I learn to just say you are NOT me? Or....do I learn to love you and begin a relatioship with you at the starting part of 118 kg, 4 XL shirts, 41 inch waist and clothes that could easily substitue as table cloths and covers for chairs? Ok....you did not choose what I fed you. You are a machine and your job is to swallow and process whatever I put into your mouth. It goes down your neck and triggers the digestive processes designed over millions of years. It is not you who makes you fat. It is me. I am going to learn to love you and perhaps together we can figure out how to make you healthy as I need to have a relation with you. You carry me like a mother carries a child. Without you, I am nothing other than an abstract concept. You give me physical reality and rather than see you as a large, fat, round object of disdain.....I will see you as the part of me that I had better start taking seriously and learn to treat as a friend and comrade. Without you....where would I be? Okay...body..."game on". Let's do this together.

paperpudding

Good luck

BZAH10

Interesting post and if it helps you get started on a better path to health, then great!

Now it's time to make a plan and start thinking and talking to your body positively.

kshama2001

Hi Shel! I remember you from some thought-provoking threads you've started in the past. How's it going?

This thread is good too!

I liked:

I will see you as the part of me that I had better start taking seriously and learn to treat as a friend and comrade.

ddsb1111

❤️

shel80kg

I appreciate the comments and encouragements. Hi Kshama. It is lovely to hear from you again. Yes...I am back as I am still on the journey and imagine that will be true for some time to come. I suspect that the early learning patterns that we establish "way back" continue to compete with all of the new patterns and habits we (I) have tried to establish over the past years and I accept that this will be one of the through lines in my life and I accept the challenge. Me and my body...well, we are in this together. Of course there is an established science to metabolism and weight and body management and to ignore the facts and realities is both foolish and arrogant. However, we are individuals with established patterns and responses that are often so automatic and unconsciously driven that even the best of the intentions and advice may not flip the unconscious switch that changes our focus, attention and in concrete terms, our choices. My wife for example tells me "It is easy" (to eat responsibly) and just "stop eating junk". Of course she is right. But if her brasen comments to me had a long term positive impact, I would be running to the beach with excitement and confidence. I do not blame my wife for becoming frustrated with my (seemingly) endless recurring weight gain. But.....it is happening for a reason or reasons and I am afraid that I have to approach this "Everest" one step at a time. If I may, I would like to use this thought "train" to take me on a more introspective track as I learn to love my body in a mor genuine way. My body has done its best to keep me alive and active but I have just seen it as the painful truth. I need to see both my body and me as BOTH valuable and essential and we can only succeed if we are both considered and respected. This is not intended to sound as an excuse and I have to be careful not to think that there is anything other than hard work ahead. But it has to be a labour of love and respect. Day two. Me and You...

shel80kg

Watching a movie which has references to Mexican food so of course I stepped out to honour the show by contemplating Doritos. So tempted. But my body is in Ketoland after 5 days of bidding farewell to sugary foods and most starchy carbs. I asked myself…. is it really that important? Could I imagine myself snacking on something else. No deep and meaningful. Just changing the narrative.
Left the shop without the Doritos . I will still enjoy the movie.

sollyn23l2

shel80kg wrote: »

Watching a movie which has references to Mexican food so of course I stepped out to honour the show by contemplating Doritos. So tempted. But my body is in Ketoland after 5 days of bidding farewell to sugary foods and most starchy carbs. I asked myself…. is it really that important? Could I imagine myself snacking on something else. No deep and meaningful. Just changing the narrative.
Left the shop without the Doritos . I will still enjoy the movie.

Honor mexican culture by having fajitas without the tortillas. Doritos aren't Mexican anyway... they were created in the US because they couldn't get people to eat enough regular tortilla chips, and they wanted to make more money.

kshama2001

shel80kg wrote: »

I appreciate the comments and encouragements. Hi Kshama. It is lovely to hear from you again. Yes...I am back as I am still on the journey and imagine that will be true for some time to come. I suspect that the early learning patterns that we establish "way back" continue to compete with all of the new patterns and habits we (I) have tried to establish over the past years and I accept that this will be one of the through lines in my life and I accept the challenge. Me and my body...well, we are in this together. Of course there is an established science to metabolism and weight and body management and to ignore the facts and realities is both foolish and arrogant. However, we are individuals with established patterns and responses that are often so automatic and unconsciously driven that even the best of the intentions and advice may not flip the unconscious switch that changes our focus, attention and in concrete terms, our choices. My wife for example tells me "It is easy" (to eat responsibly) and just "stop eating junk". Of course she is right. But if her brasen comments to me had a long term positive impact, I would be running to the beach with excitement and confidence. I do not blame my wife for becoming frustrated with my (seemingly) endless recurring weight gain. But.....it is happening for a reason or reasons and I am afraid that I have to approach this "Everest" one step at a time. If I may, I would like to use this thought "train" to take me on a more introspective track as I learn to love my body in a mor genuine way. My body has done its best to keep me alive and active but I have just seen it as the painful truth. I need to see both my body and me as BOTH valuable and essential and we can only succeed if we are both considered and respected. This is not intended to sound as an excuse and I have to be careful not to think that there is anything other than hard work ahead. But it has to be a labour of love and respect. Day two. Me and You...

This reminds me of my partner's response when I ask him to bring the cookies upstairs and put them under his bed.

He says, "Have some self control."

I reply than this IS me having self control. Or more accurately, enough self-awareness that I know I need to get them out of my sight.

shel80kg

Sorry Sollyn2312 re: "Honor mexican culture by having fajitas without the tortillas. Doritos aren't Mexican anyway... they were created in the US because they couldn't get people to eat enough regular tortilla chips, and they wanted to make more money".I suppose in the wake of "woke" one has to be careul of mixng up Tortilla chils with Doritos. Easy to miss the point however which is junk food is often linked to so many of our sedentry leisure activites( movies, reading, gaming etc) My body and me....well we have had decades of linking the worst foods with so many day to day activities that to break the association (thank you Piaget) requires cognitive shifts, narrative revisions and just sheer discipline. This is where "mind over matter" is essential. I want my body to learn that it can be satisfied with nutrition and healhy foods and not ones loaded with processed ingredients, salts, transfatty acids and sugars. My body says "hmmmmm, aren't you after comfort and sweet/savoury tastes"? "Yup", I say with reluctant honesty... But, the calories, the chemicals and and unhealthy fats.....cannot be ignored. So, my body.....if we are going to truly be friends...we have to face the cold hard truth. Some foods are better than others and why shouldn't we have healthy bodies...which is achieved only when make healthy choices (within reason). So....off to lunch with a close friend. Going to have a yummy Ceasar salad.....with no cheesecake for dessert. That is "our" plan.

sollyn23l2

shel80kg wrote: »

Sorry Sollyn2312 re: "Honor mexican culture by having fajitas without the tortillas. Doritos aren't Mexican anyway... they were created in the US because they couldn't get people to eat enough regular tortilla chips, and they wanted to make more money".I suppose in the wake of "woke" one has to be careul of mixng up Tortilla chils with Doritos. Easy to miss the point however which is junk food is often linked to so many of our sedentry leisure activites( movies, reading, gaming etc) My body and me....well we have had decades of linking the worst foods with so many day to day activities that to break the association (thank you Piaget) requires cognitive shifts, narrative revisions and just sheer discipline. This is where "mind over matter" is essential. I want my body to learn that it can be satisfied with nutrition and healhy foods and not ones loaded with processed ingredients, salts, transfatty acids and sugars. My body says "hmmmmm, aren't you after comfort and sweet/savoury tastes"? "Yup", I say with reluctant honesty... But, the calories, the chemicals and and unhealthy fats.....cannot be ignored. So, my body.....if we are going to truly be friends...we have to face the cold hard truth. Some foods are better than others and why shouldn't we have healthy bodies...which is achieved only when make healthy choices (within reason). So....off to lunch with a close friend. Going to have a yummy Ceasar salad.....with no cheesecake for dessert. That is "our" plan.

That was my point. That there are alternatives to doritos. You were making a joke, essentially, so was I.

neanderthin

Good luck and I do mean that. Most people just can't consume a diet that is essential for being a healthy human. A diet that is mostly whole foods of plants and animals in moderate amounts with a life filled with activities that include more interaction with family, friends, and community that is fulfilling, positive and worth wile seems to work for most indigenous peoples of pretty much all cultures with as much difference in the whole foods they eat as the cultures they live, so it's not a fluke and it's not really their food. Highly processed foods are also having success regardless of the culture they infiltrate and are reeking havoc, it's science and the results are in, resistance is futile.

shel80kg

Thanks fortheinsight Neanderthin (love the name).I know it may seem futile and we are at the mercy of the food multinationals who are holding our palets hostage. I am sure they have chemists and researchers who work around the clock to determine the fastest and most successful ways of creating addictive substances that we can binge on without any limitations. Yet....I cling to the hope that this thing between our ears which works on a good day (if you are not Trump) can make indivdiual choices and can help us evaluate our food selection with some degree of critical analysis and intention. Why else would many of us utilise this website? So whether I am choosing between Doritos/Tortillas or Avocados or Yogart, it is me making the final choice and it is my body that wears the consequences. I have to, sooner or later, take responsibilty for the decision and not blame it on the "fat cats" who make us fat. So.... its up to you and me. Not them. In my view.

zebasschick

in no particular order...

i have emotional eating issues, and it takes me an insane amount of fingernail-biting will not to medicate with food. it's not just a little will power. i am in most areas, highly disciplined, very self-,motivated and pro-active. i deal with food issues by making sure i have lots of super low or no calorie stuff around, and i try and play the bass more and do watercolor painting. i notice when i'm the most rested and the most emotionally rested, i tend not to do emotional eating at all.

that being said, i have a different take on being heavy. my body stored fat in case i needed it. that's what bodies do. it meant well - it's trying to help, but it's all programming. i want to take care of my body to take care of myself, and also to take care of it. it's been my body for 66 years, and i really appreciate it. my physical self and my mental / emotional self, we're part of the same being, the yin and yang. maybe part of me wishes i was the fit, firm, slim and strong self i was in my 20s or the muscled, very strong self i was in my 30s and 40s. but that was the same body it is now, and i'm doing my best.

i'm happy to report that my husband has never made a negative comment about my eating or my weight. we were a couple for years, and we got married at my highest weight ever, and he was as happy as i've ever seen him on that day in 2006. he does his best for me, and his best is very, very good. and i do my best for him...

sollyn23l2

shel80kg wrote: »

Thanks fortheinsight Neanderthin (love the name).I know it may seem futile and we are at the mercy of the food multinationals who are holding our palets hostage. I am sure they have chemists and researchers who work around the clock to determine the fastest and most successful ways of creating addictive substances that we can binge on without any limitations. Yet....I cling to the hope that this thing between our ears which works on a good day (if you are not Trump) can make indivdiual choices and can help us evaluate our food selection with some degree of critical analysis and intention. Why else would many of us utilise this website? So whether I am choosing between Doritos/Tortillas or Avocados or Yogart, it is me making the final choice and it is my body that wears the consequences. I have to, sooner or later, take responsibilty for the decision and not blame it on the "fat cats" who make us fat. So.... its up to you and me. Not them. In my view.

This exactly!!!! You've taken the biggest step already just by being aware. You can do this, and no, it's not futile. There are many, many people who are proof of that. Neanderthin's just being a bit.... dramatic to try and make a point, though he definitely has a valid point. Yes, it's a challenge, but that's what life is all about. It's not meant to be easy. We're meant to learn and grow through various difficult experiences.

sollyn23l2

neanderthin wrote: »

Good luck and I do mean that. Most people just can't consume a diet that is essential for being a healthy human. A diet that is mostly whole foods of plants and animals in moderate amounts with a life filled with activities that include more interaction with family, friends, and community that is fulfilling, positive and worth wile seems to work for most indigenous peoples of pretty much all cultures with as much difference in the whole foods they eat as the cultures they live, so it's not a fluke and it's not really their food. Highly processed foods are also having success regardless of the culture they infiltrate and are reeking havoc, it's science and the results are in, resistance is futile.

Have you ever heard of learned helplessness? It's where someone decides they can't do something, they feel they have no control over it, so they just give up. They did studies on this back in the day using dogs. They put dogs in a room with an electrified floor, where half of the room was electrified, and the other half wasn't. But they had to get from the electrified to the nonelectrified side. Every time the dog tried to take a step, they randomly got zapped by the electric floor. Some dogs were given a warning light that came before the zap, others were not.The dogs without the warning light would eventually just give up, lay down, and not take any more steps. They could have. They just chose to give up. The dogs with the warning light generally made it over to the nonelecrified side.

neanderthin

shel80kg wrote: »

Thanks fortheinsight Neanderthin (love the name).I know it may seem futile and we are at the mercy of the food multinationals who are holding our palets hostage. I am sure they have chemists and researchers who work around the clock to determine the fastest and most successful ways of creating addictive substances that we can binge on without any limitations. Yet....I cling to the hope that this thing between our ears which works on a good day (if you are not Trump) can make indivdiual choices and can help us evaluate our food selection with some degree of critical analysis and intention. Why else would many of us utilise this website? So whether I am choosing between Doritos/Tortillas or Avocados or Yogart, it is me making the final choice and it is my body that wears the consequences. I have to, sooner or later, take responsibilty for the decision and not blame it on the "fat cats" who make us fat. So.... its up to you and me. Not them. In my view.

I'm talking in the general sense and from the scientific literature. There will always be people that have better luck than others and it's always the antidotal examples that people tend to allow to dismiss the concept altogether and it's just a matter of discipline and person accountability, I get that and for some it works. A lot is tied to the percentage of these foods that make up a persons diet and in the US those foods make up about 75% for about 75% of the population, so it's not just a trivial amount. In order to control our strong urges to eat certain foods that we know aren't good for us is asking the brain to ignore the fact for us to be able to exert self control we require proper function of the area's of the brain that regulate our behavior, which is exactly what these foods effect, so it's generally a battle for most people. I do hope you find success with your approach. cheers

shel80kg

Hi again,
It’s important to clarify that the original concept of “learned helplessness “ has been debunked over and over again in peer/reviewed clinical studies. Helplessness is now seen in conventional Psychology as instinctual that can be overcome with learning and choosing more (contextually) acceptable responses. I used to share the “learned helplessness” argument with my clients but was due fully corrected as I was out of date. I like the new way of thinking which validates the power we have to choose the foods that are going to make/keep us healthy. We are creatures of habit but we have active frontal lobes that can be trained to become more independent of conditioned responses …but that is damn hard work. No easy way through it and is overeaters ( especially if the food includes junk food) has to be deliberately avoided with cognitive awareness and the image of an eventual award. We have to replace immediate gratification with delayed rewards I.e. sculpturing our bodies to the shape we have always wanted, It has to be super important to us. The image has to be clear and compelling. And the juxtaposition is that we still have to love our bodies in the present state. I suppose it moves towards the concept on unconditional love. I would really like to hear your thoughts about this?
Thanks for reading
Shel

sollyn23l2

shel80kg wrote: »

Hi again,
It’s important to clarify that the original concept of “learned helplessness “ has been debunked over and over again in peer/reviewed clinical studies. Helplessness is now seen in conventional Psychology as instinctual that can be overcome with learning and choosing more (contextually) acceptable responses. I used to share the “learned helplessness” argument with my clients but was due fully corrected as I was out of date. I like the new way of thinking which validates the power we have to choose the foods that are going to make/keep us healthy. We are creatures of habit but we have active frontal lobes that can be trained to become more independent of conditioned responses …but that is damn hard work. No easy way through it and is overeaters ( especially if the food includes junk food) has to be deliberately avoided with cognitive awareness and the image of an eventual award. We have to replace immediate gratification with delayed rewards I.e. sculpturing our bodies to the shape we have always wanted, It has to be super important to us. The image has to be clear and compelling. And the juxtaposition is that we still have to love our bodies in the present state. I suppose it moves towards the concept on unconditional love. I would really like to hear your thoughts about this?
Thanks for reading
Shel

I think you may be misunderstanding. Learned helplessness is not actual helplessness. Yes, the whole point is that an individual can pull themselves out of learned helplessness, as it is learned, not biological. It has not been debunked, more realistically, some people misunderstand what it is. Learned helplessness, in fact, completely validates the idea that we are in control of our responses to the things around us. It's simply that we can be convinced that we aren't.

shel80kg

Dear Sollyn

I am aware that in your two responses to my posts, you have felt a need to correct me and demonstrate your broad knowledge of Mexican food and psychological constructs. Doritos are not Mexican and Learned Helplessness has not been debunked in psychological studies post the original writings of Seligman, Okay.Thanks for sharing and clarifying although I’m guessing that folks interested in reading and reflecting on my thread my be more interested in the discussion around "better ways to see our bodies in a more integrated (rather than dissociated) way" rather may prefer than tangental arguments about terminology and metaphors.
I was just wondering if you understand the value of being vulnerable and if you are willing to share your own struggles with food, body image and/or weight management. Nit picking a post might be construed as a bit of avoidant behaviour rather than contributing in a meaningful way to the discussion. Certainly you can argue and correct the (irrelevant) distinctions between Doritos and Tortillas or the revised and updated opinion’s of Seligman’s Learned Helplessness which most trained Psychologists are more careful about referencing when discussing the murky and complex patterns of addiction and obsessive tendencies.
I may be wrong, but these threads can easily be derailed by people who believe that they are the “fact-police” and that is a shame because this tendency may make it less interesting to share and explore far more important aspect of how many of us struggle with achieving our critical goals. Thanks for keeping an open mind and I am certainly willing to hear all points of view. Thank you
Shel

sollyn23l2

shel80kg wrote: »

Dear Sollyn

I am aware that in your two responses to my posts, you have felt a need to correct me and demonstrate your broad knowledge of Mexican food and psychological constructs. Doritos are not Mexican and Learned Helplessness has not been debunked in psychological studies post the original writings of Seligman, Okay.Thanks for sharing and clarifying although I’m guessing that folks interested in reading and reflecting on my thread my be more interested in the discussion around "better ways to see our bodies in a more integrated (rather than dissociated) way" rather may prefer than tangental arguments about terminology and metaphors.
I was just wondering if you understand the value of being vulnerable and if you are willing to share your own struggles with food, body image and/or weight management. Nit picking a post might be construed as a bit of avoidant behaviour rather than contributing in a meaningful way to the discussion. Certainly you can argue and correct the (irrelevant) distinctions between Doritos and Tortillas or the revised and updated opinion’s of Seligman’s Learned Helplessness which most trained Psychologists are more careful about referencing when discussing the murky and complex patterns of addiction and obsessive tendencies.
I may be wrong, but these threads can easily be derailed by people who believe that they are the “fact-police” and that is a shame because this tendency may make it less interesting to share and explore far more important aspect of how many of us struggle with achieving our critical goals. Thanks for keeping an open mind and I am certainly willing to hear all points of view. Thank you
Shel

Sure. I was sharing an alternate viewpoint, as you point out. If you believe I was nitpicking, I can't control that.