Imagining Our Bodies as a Relational Construct: You and Me
Replies
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PAV8888, like many others on these forums, you responded with the type of logic which implies that guys like me"don't get it" and dieting and maintaining weight loss involve the same skills.
With respect, you appear to be missing the main point ( paraphrased by me but presented in scholarly fashion by a Psychologist with decades of experience in addiction and weight loss).
Here it is in more simple terms:
1. Individuals who truly struggle with obesity often "flip a switch" of some sort when they have had enough of whatever upsets them in relation to their body image. In a rather sudden and perhaps ill thought out way, they tend to be more motivated and passionate about dieting.Hence the embracing of diet fads and "quick fix" implementations in food consumption and "gym memberships".
These individuals utilize the skills of "white knuckling" suppress their cravings and impulses and go almost always into deprivation and rapid reduction of food consumption.
Obviously, these folks are reinforced with (relatively) rapid results and a sense of success.
2. The research on weight loss and maintaining a healthy body indicates that a majority of people who lose weight (and in particular lose weight quickly) are unable to maintain the newly established weight loss because they require deeper knowledge, understanding and practice with healthy eating habits and patterns.
Your rather long response ignores the sad and stark reality of weight -gain recidivism.
Individuals who engage in rapid dieting are driven (and motivated by) fast results, and external support and encouragement.....
These same Individuals are then required to focus on maintaining a healthy eating regime. But what have they learned and practiced. Dieting tends NOT to promote this and the person who has worked so hard to shed the weight may not have learned anything that may ensure ongoing success. That is reality.
Therefore, the skills required to create successful maintenance of a healthy body require a shift in attitude, enduring behavioural patterns, reduction in instant gratification and promotion of delayed rewards and a deeper understanding of the impact various foods have on the metabolic machinery.
I am not saying you are wrong or misguided in your previous responses. My view is you attempted to simplify and sidestep the obvious tendencies of a majority of dieters who are very good at getting the weight down but not equipped with the appropriate skills necessary for maintenance.
In my view, this is a common misperception and one main reason (perhaps) why people who are unable to keep the weight off are often misunderstood and demonised by those who think it is "just so straight forward"
Interested in what others think.
Shel
I'm confused.
You say that the problem is that maintenance isn't like loss, but is a different process, and that's why people fail.
You then describe a scenario (your #1) where people adopt a "quick fix" mindset, then find (your #2) that the practices that were good for "quick fix" aren't sustainable long term.
In my view, that's literally saying that the process those people use for weight loss doesn't work for maintenance, i.e., they're not using the same process in practice. Maybe they're trying, I have no idea. But it fails. On that, we agree. Maybe they believe the same process will work, but they find that it doesn't, because they can't sustain it. Their behavior during loss is a different process than their behavior during maintenance: Different process.
I think we all agree (maybe?) that a mindset shift is necessary, probably including your professor. I think one aspect of what @mtaratoot, @PAV8888 and I are saying is the the needed mindset shift is the realization that the loss process needs to be the same process as maintenance, i.e., weight loss as maintenance practice (for part of weight loss, at least). In other words, that the process for losing needs to be pretty much the same as the process for maintenance, and that in the common "quick fix' case, it's the loss process that's the problem. It's not sustainable.
mtaratoot, PAV, and I are coming from an experiential standpoint: We've all lost weight (a lot of weight in PAV's case at least) and maintained the loss. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like your professor is coming from a more theoretical standpoint. Saying why the common case doesn't work is good. Figuring out what does work is better. I think the insight that loss at some point needs to follow a path that will work in maintenance is a useful, applied, experiential insight.
Certainly that's where I'm coming from in saying that the loss process and the maintenance process are the same process. In my view, for me they've been very much the same process, except for a temporary sensibly-moderate calorie deficit during loss. My commitment to myself was not to do anything during loss that I wasn't willing to continue forever to stay at a healthy weight, except for that moderate calorie deficit: No special exercise, no special eating rules. I've been at a healthy weight for going on 8 years now, after 30 previous years of overweight/obesity. So far, at least, for me the "one process" approach has worked.
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PAV8888, like many others on these forums, you responded with the type of logic which implies that guys like me"don't get it" and dieting and maintaining weight loss involve the same skills.
With respect, you appear to be missing the main point ( paraphrased by me but presented in scholarly fashion by a Psychologist with decades of experience in addiction and weight loss).
Here it is in more simple terms:
1. Individuals who truly struggle with obesity often "flip a switch" of some sort when they have had enough of whatever upsets them in relation to their body image. In a rather sudden and perhaps ill thought out way, they tend to be more motivated and passionate about dieting.Hence the embracing of diet fads and "quick fix" implementations in food consumption and "gym memberships".
These individuals utilize the skills of "white knuckling" suppress their cravings and impulses and go almost always into deprivation and rapid reduction of food consumption.
Obviously, these folks are reinforced with (relatively) rapid results and a sense of success.
2. The research on weight loss and maintaining a healthy body indicates that a majority of people who lose weight (and in particular lose weight quickly) are unable to maintain the newly established weight loss because they require deeper knowledge, understanding and practice with healthy eating habits and patterns.
Your rather long response ignores the sad and stark reality of weight -gain recidivism.
Individuals who engage in rapid dieting are driven (and motivated by) fast results, and external support and encouragement.....
These same Individuals are then required to focus on maintaining a healthy eating regime. But what have they learned and practiced. Dieting tends NOT to promote this and the person who has worked so hard to shed the weight may not have learned anything that may ensure ongoing success. That is reality.
Therefore, the skills required to create successful maintenance of a healthy body require a shift in attitude, enduring behavioural patterns, reduction in instant gratification and promotion of delayed rewards and a deeper understanding of the impact various foods have on the metabolic machinery.
I am not saying you are wrong or misguided in your previous responses. My view is you attempted to simplify and sidestep the obvious tendencies of a majority of dieters who are very good at getting the weight down but not equipped with the appropriate skills necessary for maintenance.
In my view, this is a common misperception and one main reason (perhaps) why people who are unable to keep the weight off are often misunderstood and demonised by those who think it is "just so straight forward"
Interested in what others think.
Shel
I'm confused.
You say that the problem is that maintenance isn't like loss, but is a different process, and that's why people fail.
You then describe a scenario (your #1) where people adopt a "quick fix" mindset, then find (your #2) that the practices that were good for "quick fix" aren't sustainable long term.
In my view, that's literally saying that the process those people use for weight loss doesn't work for maintenance, i.e., they're not using the same process in practice. Maybe they're trying, I have no idea. But it fails. On that, we agree. Maybe they believe the same process will work, but they find that it doesn't, because they can't sustain it. Their behavior during loss is a different process than their behavior during maintenance: Different process.
I think we all agree (maybe?) that a mindset shift is necessary, probably including your professor. I think one aspect of what @mtaratoot, @PAV8888 and I are saying is the the needed mindset shift is the realization that the loss process needs to be the same process as maintenance, i.e., weight loss as maintenance practice (for part of weight loss, at least). In other words, that the process for losing needs to be pretty much the same as the process for maintenance, and that in the common "quick fix' case, it's the loss process that's the problem. It's not sustainable.
mtaratoot, PAV, and I are coming from an experiential standpoint: We've all lost weight (a lot of weight in PAV's case at least) and maintained the loss. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like your professor is coming from a more theoretical standpoint. Saying why the common case doesn't work is good. Figuring out what does work is better. I think the insight that loss at some point needs to follow a path that will work in maintenance is a useful, applied, experiential insight.
Certainly that's where I'm coming from in saying that the loss process and the maintenance process are the same process. In my view, for me they've been very much the same process, except for a temporary sensibly-moderate calorie deficit during loss. My commitment to myself was not to do anything during loss that I wasn't willing to continue forever to stay at a healthy weight, except for that moderate calorie deficit: No special exercise, no special eating rules. I've been at a healthy weight for going on 8 years now, after 30 previous years of overweight/obesity. So far, at least, for me the "one process" approach has worked.
Absolutely. I'll add to that that I think where people run into issues with this is that people are bad... like.... really, really bad... at understanding and predicting what kinds of behaviors they will be able to sustain long term. I know I've seen many people who go into an extreme diet fully and wholeheartedly believing that their new super restrictive, puritanical diet is their new "forever" diet. Until they realize they can't be happy on just meat forever, or living on 1000 calories a day forever, or fruitarian forever, or what have you.2 -
Maybe taking a step back and looking at it differently would help.
The "quick fix" approach is NOT "the process" to lose weight. It's the process to temporarily lose weight, ring the bell, and then quit. That clearly doesn't work for many.
The "build habits" process is actually "the process" both to lose weight and to keep it off. Both require a person to "stick to it."
I could come up with some bad analogies, but I'll refrain this once to keep it short. Maybe one: One process to running a distance running race (or bike race or swimming race) that is almost certain to fail is to sprint from the starting line and keep it up as long as possible. You might even be out front for a little while. But it's not sustainable. The process for finishing the race would not be to go at a reasonable pace from the start and STICK TO IT. That is much more likely to get you to the finish line, and it's the same process at the beginning and all the way through. The difference is that at the end of the race you stop. With weight management, you can't stop. You have to keep that pace going indefinitely.
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My apologies as I think I confused (even) myself and you have all been very kind, patient and respectful to this discussion. I really liked the metaphor of the "sprint" vs the "marathon" as that captures what I think both the professor and I were reflecting on.
Both involve running, but one is less sustainable. The "marathon" requires different skills, attitude and a longer term commitment.
Now I realize that I need to accept that our endeavours to loose weight and keep ourselves in the healthy zone might best be framed as a continuum of sorts but the emphasis may shift as we approach "goal" weight and dieting morphs into established and sustainable eating (and exercise) patterns and choices.
Again, my apologies for my rather poor and confusing responses. I really do appreciate the wisdom and expertise available on the platform and I hope I have not offended anyone.
Shel
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Two different goals likely require separate and well thought out approaches.The first is about breaking the patterns, building momentum and confidence and noticing results which reinforce the changed eating routines.
The second, FAR MORE DIFFICULT. The second, life-style changes and a responsible approach to food and the impact(s) on our bodies over time. Understanding the relationship between mind and body and how we treat ourselves may as important from a psychological perspective as a physical.
I’ve been really struggling to understand what he means. I had to pull myself out of the physical process and the long term plan it takes to make losing weight and maintaining that weight loss successful. Because, to me, that’s the entire point.
1. Lose weight
2. Maintain indefinitely
How do we do that?
Answer: Create a lifestyle that allows you to burn more calories than you use. Then do the exact same thing with slightly more calories.
Then I put the emphasis on the word “approach”. Approach doesn’t mean plan, it means, by definition, a way of dealing with something. Perhaps he’s saying the way one emotionally deals with losing weight and the way one emotionally deals with keeping it off are different.
I suppose, emotionally, seeing the results of my plan would give me momentum and make me happy. I also suppose that I need to break-up with my emotional attachment to the way I ate/lived before to help me build new emotional connections with my new patterns and behaviors.
The second phase he mentions is understanding the connection between mind and body. I have to admit, I don’t see the approach part here. Maybe it has something to do with approaching yourself with kindness and making the decision every single day to do something good for yourself, like brushing your teeth, taking care of your body, things like that. I don’t see how that’s different than the first phase, but possibly it’s the self love you’re choosing even though you’re at your goal weight and not because you want to be at your goal weight? It’s the shift of doing things because they’re good for you and you love yourself and not because you want something like a certain BF % or number on the scale.
I sense the motives in his theory are based on emotions and not on what process works. How he can deduce what emotional approach works from one person to another is beyond me, I wasn’t there for the lecture, but I'm happy it connected with you and made you want to approach weight loss in a healthier way.
Sorry if I’m completely off base here.1 -
My first response ddsb1111 is...what on Earth does your name mean? I struggle with understanding if it is an acronym of some sort or if it has some hidden symbolic meaning that has no real relevance to anyone other than you....
I suppose this is my way of saying, I do not really need you to pick apart each of my words and phrases as if you are required to analyze my thought processes and quality of expression. I was forgiving (and even appreciative) of several of the other responses which offerred what I considered to be helpful, thoughtful and challenging points of clarification and meaningful criticisms of my suggestions related to dieting and maintenance .
In the case of your response, I just find myself irritated.
And I do not appreciate you referring to me in "third person". That was just rude. I have always tried to present my views in an honest and sincere manner and of course there is a significant emotional component to discussing weight management and approaches both short and long term. Dismissing or minimising my comments as "emotional" is offensive.
I do not think I am going to continue this thread.
S
(I was not promulgating a theory by the way. Just ideas)
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My first response ddsb1111 is...what on Earth does your name mean? I struggle with understand if it is an acronym of some sort or if it has some hidden symbolic meaning that has no real relevance to anyone other than you....
I suppose this is my way of saying, I do not really need you to pick apart each of my words and phrases as if you are required to analyze my thought processes and quality of expression. I was forgiving (and even appreciative) of several of the other responses which offerred what I considered to be helpful, thoughtful and challenging points of clarification and meaningful criticisms of my suggestions related to dieting and maintenance .
In the case of your response, I just find myself irritated.
And I do not appreciate you referring to me in "third person". That was just rude.
S
(I was not promulgating a theory by the way. Just ideas)
I
The “he” is your professor. I was talking to you about your professor. I was also trying to make the connection with you. I’m sorry.2 -
Hi Shel,
I appreciated your post from yesterday where you shared your thinking about the sprint/marathon analogy. I think that it was heartfelt, and it showed you were open to looking at things through a different lens. That's a great way to approach personal growth. I commend you for being so open about it.
Might I suggest not to take things too personally? I'm not sure if @ddsb1111 was speaking directly to you in her writing, speaking to others here, or speaking possibly about your mentor. I sincerely doubt she was trying to be offensive; however I could be wrong.
People will disagree with ideas here. It's encouraged. We can do it civilly. That's expected. Thank you for continuing to be civil. I look forward to future dialogue about many other aspects of health, fitness, and nutrition.4 -
Thank you for your prompt responses and my sense is that ddsb1111 was not trying to be offensive. I certainly accept that. I do not mind debate and I value critical thinking which is so important in the pursuit of knowledge and insight. I am prone to my own emotional reactions and I know I need to do more to not take things personally. That may be my greatest weakness. I will give more thought to my knee jerk response and reread her text with less sensitivity. Thank you
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May I just add that it is extremely refreshing how this dialogue is so respectful of diverse opinions and the way they are addressed. Thank you to everyone. This is a good example of the way the MFP community is supposed to work.
Sometimes things devolve. Sometimes they get brought back to civility. Sometimes they get moved over to the Debate area. Sometimes they get squashed out of existence. This one is both informative AND respectful.
Just wow.
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@shel80kg
Am I recalling correctly that you started back in September, about 5 months or so ago at about 118kg? Or maybe you started well before that? I don't think you ever did indicate your height, or perhaps I've missed it.
That said: whereabouts are you now in terms of this process? How far down? How long since you started? What sort of deficits are you achieving and what sort of TDEE are you maintaining? Traditionally we approximate by using 3500 Cal = 1lb in weight change.
Are you using a weight trend app or are you navigating based on scale weight or is use of scale something you don't do? Do you use an activity tracker or do you use MFP to track or some other combination or no tracking at all?
From your posts I "see" someone who is putting a considerable amount of thought and effort into all this.
This is GOOD. Really good. Because thinking things through can allow for adjustment. And adjustment, when and if appropriate, can help lead to sustainability of effort and continuing compliance. And sustainability of effort and continuing compliance is what will get us--all of us--our results.
But I am also, perhaps incorrectly, getting the vibe that AT TIMES you may be feeling a bit frustrated. Hence my questions above.5 -
To be crystal clear I'm trying to figure out if you're near/at/or past the six month mark of deficit eating. And the relative size of the deficits you've been hitting as compared to your daily TDEE1
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Hi, Thanks for your interest and I shall attempt to answer each question with accuracy:
Am I recalling correctly that you started back in September, about 5 months or so ago at about 118kg?
Yes. After seeing myself in a photo and breaking a plastic chair at a family event (the next day) I hit the ground running and embarked on this round of weight management. Although I was a bit frightened of weighing myself following the "traumatic" event of the chair debacle, I am fairly sure I was 118kg or more. Maybe 120 kg and change? I had not started until that period so my official date was September 8th 2023.
Or maybe you started well before that? I don't think you ever did indicate your height, or perhaps I've missed it.
Height 176 cm
That said: whereabouts are you now in terms of this process?
I am enjoying a relatively balanced diet with some noticeable (positive) changes to my appetite and eating behaviour. I am not missing the junk food component to my previous food consumption and strangely beginning to crave fish. How weird is that. From Twisties to fish....the new me.
I am also loving my new fitness capacity and have noticed so much more agility and spring to my step. MY body is feeling awesome.
How far down?
Not sure but 80g has always been my dream goal. Long term plan would be to reach that by May or June (2024)
How long since you started?
5 months
What sort of deficits are you achieving and what sort of TDEE are you maintaining? Traditionally we approximate by using 3500 Cal = 1lb in weight change.
Trying to keep within 1500 to 2000 cal. Does that make sense?
Are you using a weight trend app or are you navigating based on scale weight or is use of scale something you don't do? Do you use an activity tracker or do you use MFP to track or some other combination or no tracking at all?
Relying on scale weight, how clothes are now fitting and clients, friends and family's reactions.
From your posts I "see" someone who is putting a considerable amount of thought and effort into all this.
I find scribbling out my thoughts can be cathartic and enjoyable (and I hope helpful?) Maybe boring to most.
This is GOOD. Really good. Because thinking things through can allow for adjustment. And adjustment, when and if appropriate, can help lead to sustainability of effort and continuing compliance. And sustainability of effort and continuing compliance is what will get us--all of us--our results.
Yes. I have "yo-yoed" too many times in my weight management "career" and I hope I can use some degree of intelligence, honesty and regulation to keep up my success. I am feeling really really good.
But I am also, perhaps incorrectly, getting the vibe that AT TIMES you may be feeling a bit frustrated. Hence my questions above.
Hmmmm, like Donald Trump, frustration (for him "chaos" ) has followed me most of my life. At my age, 64, I still wonder how I create my own irritaton and frustration with myself.
I hold the view that I create our own misery quite often. Not that we do this intentionally but perhaps we just don't consider future consequences from our choices. I am good at playing it forward for others but not so much for me. The early September experiences ought not to have been such a surprise. I carry me in my body all of the time so paying attention to the weight and size should be obvious.
I think I dissociate from my body/weight rather quickly (perhaps some early child-hood trauma) and I can easily ignore the weight gain which just creeps up on me. I know that sounds a bit passive and I know I am responsible for my choices. Hence, my sense of reality checking now so I can live in my aware mind and make meaningful and constructive choices without completely disowning the joys and pleasures of nice food.
Myfitnesspal has been one of my main sources of support and I am grateful to it and the nice people like you who bother to take the time to comment, reflect and ask questions.
Thanks for your questions and interests and I hope I showed you the respect (I feel) you deserved by answering honestly.
Take care
Shel
(off to eat some fish).3 -
I hold the view that I create our own misery quite often. Not that we do this intentionally but perhaps we just don't consider future consequences from our choices. I am good at playing it forward for others but not so much for me. The early September experiences ought not to have been such a surprise. I carry me in my body all of the time so paying attention to the weight and size should be obvious.
Shel,
The bolded part above struck a chord for me.
I don't usually do "New Year's Resolutions," but I do often reflect on my past and future. I do this more than once during the year - there are many different observations of "New" year.
Last year I focused on gratitude. I was already doing OK with it, but it was my focus. I think I improved. There's still work to do, and I won't stop working on it.
I had not come up with something new to work on this year until it dawned on my while listening to a podcast; self-compassion. Like you, I sometimes don't do a good job with it. For sure it will continue to be a goal. I am for sure a work in progress, and I don't know if I'll ever call myself successful. I think it's a worthwhile pursuit, and I hope you find a way to do it as well.
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A reminder that in addition to the various mental challenges (such as under which conditions and why each of us as an individual tends to overeat even when we are not physically hungry) there also exist physiological aspects to weight loss.
I am not certain that you are indicating that you are trying to keep your food intake to between 1500 to 2000 Cal or if you're trying to keep your deficit between the two numbers. I suspect the first.
A few back calculations put your stated goals as wanting to lose 88lbs in 39 weeks or an AVERAGE of 2.26lbs a week.
This would be going from September to June. And while it would not exceed 1% of body weight lost per week while you're above 100kg, it WOULD exceed that mark when you're below 220lbs.
I also note that more people tend to find 0.5% of body weight lost per week more easy to sustain longer term than rates closer to 1%
A loss of 2.26lbs a week translates to a weekly deficit of 7910 Cal. Or a bit more than 1100 a day.
Your target eating being in the 1500 to 2000 range with a deficit of 1100 a day puts your TDEE in the 2600 to 3100 range. Before people object to that, I note that I would consider it quite feasibe for a 176 cm guy having direct personal experience that it is feasible for a 172.5cm guy
What sticks out, to me, a bit, is that 1100/2600=42.31% deficit, or conversely, 1100/3100=35.48% deficit.
Both of these numbers are incredibly taxing on the body.
Just a heads up as you make plans and adjustments that the traditional "reaction" point for large deficits tends to come up when people get closer to the 6+ month mark and to the mid point of the overweight range.
Generally speaking 25% deficits while carrying fat levels that would have you correctly classified as obese and 20% deficits while carrying energy reserves that would have you correctly classified in the mid overweight to normal range are already quite aggressive.
In fact, longer term, people may find it easier to comply with and adhere to plans that require smaller as opposed to larger deficits. The risk of gallbladder stones with rapid loss is also far from insignificant.
It sounds like you're currently at a good spot. This is good. And I would be hypocritical if I were to pretend that I didn't (and wouldn't) ride the happy wave while things are going good.
But I was also lucky enough to recognize when I was over-pushing the envelope and to adjust.
So my suggestion to you would be to keep an open mind and to not hesitate to adjust your calories towards a smaller deficit, without self recrimination and without angst, should you start finding yourself coming up with thoughts that would jeopardize the continuity of your effort.
Food obsessions (and I am not talking about fish), irritability, headaches, lack of strength, fatigue, that may exist before you eat and diminish soon after, feeling that you're not getting rewarded enough for your efforts are all things that should raise various levels of caution flags if they come into play.
Making things easy enough to continue to stay in the game is the only way you will be able to stay in the game and the process of weight loss and maintenance is not one of nine months or one year.
Think in terms of 5+ years and make your choices according to the longer term to avoid the two phase trap you discussed above.2 -
That was very helpful Pav so thank you for the number crunching and the reflections (as well as the sound advice).
I am curious about your rational for presuming that my TDEE could be between 2600 and 3100 calories? I try and work out at the gym and or go for run/walks 5 times a week now ( and burn between 300 to 500 calories at a time). Were you adding this into the mix? I ask that because when I calculate my TDEE on one of the available calculators on the net, 2000c is about average (although I tend not to include body fat as one of the dependent variables. My thought was that if I could keep calories to approx 1000 for most days between now and June, I may finally reach my target....but I am wondering now (after having read your comments) if I am being realistic let alone responsible for such a dramatic change?
I think I can and perhaps ought to be more patient now and considered with meal adaptations. I want to be in the long game now as it is just too taxing physcially and mentally to going up and down. This is really important to me and I will appreciate all of the wisdom and help I can get. Thanks again.
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I can only go by the numbers you give out. So their accuracy is predicated on what I am working with
You said September to July, 88lbs, and indicated you're on track.
that's 9 months so 75% of 52 weeks = 39 weeks.
88lbs * 3500 Cal / 39 weeks = a bit more than 1125 Cal a day.
If you're achieving that and eating 1500, TDEE which is your total daily energy expenditure including all exercise would be 1500+1125 = 2625. If you're achieving that 1125 Cal deficit while eating 2000 Cal then your TDEE is 3125. I rounded a bit.
That includes everything movement and exercise and breathing and is based just on calories logged as eaten and weight change.
Calculators can ESTIMATE a starting point for what you will spend.
The quality of your logging, of course is a variable. and could be "on" or "off". But if your logging is consistent and you add your body weight TREND change the two together give you an estimate that is workable for YOU.
My Fitbit gives me an estimate of my TDEE. But my logging and weight change is what validates it.
Once you're sufficiently into the game your own numbers predict you better than a web based estimation.
Of course without exact figures I am probably off. But the calculation is something you can do for yourself and the concepts of deficit as % of TDEE and weight loss as a % of body weight are mentioned by others from time to time.
While slightly off from one another if you sit and calculate them (the % of body weight tends to produce a larger deficit) ... they offer a workable approximation of what would be a middle path between too little and too much speed.
My own experience was that 695 Cal per year deficit for a year (-72.5) on average was fairly fast (at the limits of what I would consider to have been safe in retrospect) for myself. And I actually applied increased activity that allowed me to eat on average 2560 Cal per day during that time period, i.e. it was an average deficit of "only" 21.35% of TDEE. This came after having already lost 40-45lbs before MFP so it was longer than a year cumulatively. I then spent another year 2015-2016 losing 11.1lbs and training for maintenance Before calling the next year (2016-2017) the beginning of maintenance.
Of course I would not have called it training at the time... just very slow loss!
But. This is me. What I am highlighting to you is that this is not a lose weight and call it a day thing. And that, in addition to feeling good, there are also cumulative stresses that are piling on underneath and that the current level of energy reserves plus the speed of loss (plus your own uniqueness) do all play into how the stresses pile up.
Just try to apply your powers of observation to yourself and be willing to adjust and seek the paths that allow you to keep on keeping on. Speed of results is not what matters. Developing long term workable processes --for you-- DO matter.
again n=1 limitations to my observations and all that.2 -
Thanks for the clarifications. I will think and re-think my process and slow the plan down a bit. Makes sense.
Thanks again
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Ok?0
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Hi Epoch,
I am very moved that you reached out. I just don't get on the platform as often as I would like due to personal circumstances but I am doing well. I know that I share (at times) the emotional side of me on this platform and I may leave readers thinking that I am a bit fragile. I do agree that I am moody and easily impacted (triggered) by certain topics and opinions. At the same time, I am resilient and push through with the many challenges in my life and look at life with curiousity and optimism. Thank you again for checking in.
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I have been reflecting on weight loss from a motivational perspective and wondered if those of us who are frequent flyers in the dieting game need to address (honestly) how we came to be overweight and even more importantly, why we allowed fat to accumulate in obvious placed on our bodies in an almost dissociated/unaware manner.
So many individuals are commenting on how good I look and how my body has changed. Although it is great to hear that, I do have mixed emotions with regards to the feedback I am receiving. I am not sure if I can share with you in precise terms which feelings but it would be most similar to some degree of discomfort and anxiety.
I wonder how my family and friends saw me and thought of me when I was at my largest? Did they worry about me? Was my body grotesque from their point of view? Was it unpleasant to be around me as I certainly could not disguise my obesity.
Instead they were being kind and respectful I imagine and choosing to not let my fat body not be a focal point in any discussion.
So....if the "outside world" tolerated my physique, I imagine this assisted in my dissociation and ease of avoidance. Ahhhh. Perhaps that is why, when I broke a plastic chair in September and saw pictures of my at a family function I had a major break down. That makes sense. I confronted myself with the truth. Is that what it takes? Is that what motivates us? Something happens and we cannot turn away from the reality. And if that is what happenned and we start to take our situations seriously, how do we maintain the "momentum" when the original catalyst loosens its grip on our shame and guilt?.
Now....I have to not driven by shame or guilt; nor do I want to be running from the fear of recycling back to fat man. It has to be a labour of love and appreciation for healthy eating and treating my body as a friend, and as a machine that requires objective and consistent maintenance. Food is fuel and not the conduent to my happiness or a replacement for an exciting fulfilling life. Perhaps the motivation will be derived from the level above constantly thinking about food, weight loss, MPF, the scales, the gym, etc. Perhaps that higher level is the level of living the considered and value-based life with intention and mindfulness. I don't want to keep going back down to world of dieting and endless cycles. There is so much more to live for.
In any case, if you read this far, thank you and I would love to know your thoughts?
Thanks
Shel
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Alright!
Yes.
find the discussions thought provoking, but my reply limited by typos on tiny keyboard, lol. Hope to get on puter for a longer rambletude...
i am glad to have more to ponder... disappear, not... 0 -
I learned at a family dinner that young people are getting their nutritional knowledge and guidance from the "expertise" available on Tik Tok, Instagram etc. My 16 year old grandson has embraced the Carnivore diet and believes that vegetbles and fats are superflous and meat is the "bomb". His evidence is soley reliant on the 30 to 45 second video clips which prove his thesis that if "cows eat plants and we eat cows, why should we eat plants as well"? "
His sister, holds the view that one loses weight from going to the gym for 2 hours a day so that you can eat whatever you want and make yourself strong so you won't be bullied at HighSchool. Her references are derived from the three sources on Instagram from kids who have discovered these "truthisms".
Here I am, trying to work out, at the age of 64, how to shed my final 10 kg ( and then keep it off) and somehow I believe that I might not be any more insightful then the neonates 100 years younger than me.
We all tend to be at the mercy of misinformation and incorrect ideas regardng the science and truth regarding body function and food impact and we allow ourselves to embrace fad diets, nonsensical approaches and questionable eating suggestions when there is a more honest and accurate set of explanations and recommendations which will lead to healthy body management.
I hope I can do my part to quell my impatience and anxieties surrounding being overweight and just work through the process with common sense and accurate information. It does not have to be so hard to get this right. Just the right plan.
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So....if the "outside world" tolerated my physique, I imagine this assisted in my dissociation and ease of avoidance. Ahhhh. Perhaps that is why, when I broke a plastic chair in September and saw pictures of my at a family function I had a major break down. That makes sense. I confronted myself with the truth. Is that what it takes? Is that what motivates us? Something happens and we cannot turn away from the reality. And if that is what happened and we start to take our situations seriously, how do we maintain the "momentum" when the original catalyst loosens its grip on our shame and guilt?.
Now....I have to not driven by shame or guilt; nor do I want to be running from the fear of recycling back to fat man. It has to be a labour of love and appreciation for healthy eating and treating my body as a friend, and as a machine that requires objective and consistent maintenance. Food is fuel and not the conduent to my happiness or a replacement for an exciting fulfilling life. Perhaps the motivation will be derived from the level above constantly thinking about food, weight loss, MPF, the scales, the gym, etc. Perhaps that higher level is the level of living the considered and value-based life with intention and mindfulness. I don't want to keep going back down to world of dieting and endless cycles. There is so much more to live for.
In any case, if you read this far, thank you and I would love to know your thoughts?
I think some people do indeed experience a moment of truth and that truth sets them on their path of weight loss. It can be a moment of shame (breaking a chair, not fitting into a fairground attraction,...) or a moment of fear (medical diagnosis that significantly decreases life expectancy if no measures are taken).
How to keep up that momentum? I think it can be a mix of things:
- building habits (food and activity related) that carry you though when 'acute' motivation is lacking. Motivation in the sense of enthusiasm is a fleeting thing and if we try to build our lives on that foundation, it will more than likely fail. Not just for weight-loss, but health in general (are you enthusiastic about brushing your teeth, for example?) and even our lives on the whole
- a deeper motivation: I do agree that a positive one (envisioning yourself healthy, with a good quality of life...) is probably better than a negative one (shame, fear). But in reality it might be a mix, and we're all different in what drives us.
My own weight-loss was not triggered by a moment of truth, just a gradually increasing sense of unease, unhappiness (as gradual as my weight gain)... That unease made me susceptible: some time before MFP I bought some weight loss pills (the type that keep nutrients/calories from being absorbed) after seeing an ad. A few months later I saw an ad for Noom on Facebook and started a free trial. I got frustrated with the app, but it pushed me to search for a food logging alternative and my true weight-loss journey began, on MFP.
I didn't really believe anything would happen, but I still gave it a go. I didn't get truly motivated until the weight-loss started happening (overturning an idea stuck in my head that gaining weight as you get older was inevitable and weight loss doomed to fail) and on top of that it was easy! If I had known earlier how easy it could be, I would have saved myself lots a lot of stretch marks and loose skin. But perhaps I simply wasn't ready mentally before then.
As I lost weight, the motivation to keep going/keep the weight off became how good I felt - lighter and fitter. My weight gain had been so gradual I hadn't realised how much it was (in all senses of the word) weighing me down. There was and still is a bit of 'negative' motivation too: avoiding becoming like my mother, who holds it as a universal truth that weight-loss is impossible, who considers thinking about your health and being aware of your body (for example fitness trackers) is bad and who is out of breath after walking 100 yards or half a flight of stairs. Bad quality of life, and also limiting my father in his ambitions to take advantage of his retirement (no travel possible,...).
So both negative and positive deeper motivation.
But I wasn't always motivated (in the sense of enthusiastic) - that's when habits carried me through: the habit of logging, being so used to exercise that I become irritable when unable to exercise for several days,...
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Let us dispel the notion that weight loss is impossible as we age. I was 70 when I finally decided NO MORE. I am not at ideal weight but about 100 lbs down with maybe 20 to go. Loose skin was inevitable. Even if this is as good as it gets I’m happy. The last five years have been a revelation and wonderful.8
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Let us dispel the notion that weight loss is impossible as we age. I was 70 when I finally decided NO MORE. I am not at ideal weight but about 100 lbs down with maybe 20 to go. Loose skin was inevitable. Even if this is as good as it gets I’m happy. The last five years have been a revelation and wonderful.
That’s beautiful, I agree with you, and so happy you stopped finding reason why you can’t and started finding reasons why you can. That’s all it takes, no matter how fast or slow. You should be on a poster, I just love this so much.1 -
I agree with you Yoolypr as I discovered something similar at 64. Weight management or more generally, life and health management can be improved at any point along on our journey and can be a rewarding experience regardless of age.
I have found the most recent period (Sept 2023 to now) to be quite challenging as I have noticed that my body is far less responsive to the calorie deficit change that I have imposed on it. I am aware that I may have been a bit too dramatic (impatient??) in the alterations to my diet and I suspect that my expectations were unrealistic. Yet,5 months later we have reached a homeostasis of sorts and I feel great. I am walking'running 3 to 6 km a day and finding the routines of eating well, and recording meals etc quite regularly and loving what is happening to me.
One of my clients said to me once after a cool therapy session "this *kitten* really works". I guess that says it all.
Never too late embrace what can only lead us to a better life. "bring it".
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I am learning to adjust to a body that moves faster, is more flexible, and wears smaller clothes. It does not feel like "me" quite yet but my hope is that we will learn to get use to one another. My car seems easier to get into, I find it so much easier to move up and down our narrow staircase and I get in and out of chairs, sofas and bed without the previous strain and effort.
I wonder how long the brain takes to update new and changed images of ourselves? I went shopping for a new shirt last week and immediately found myself in the 4xl section and could have easily purchased a top that could have doubled for a shower curtain in my ensuite. I guess this is going to take some getting use to.
From a food consumption point of view, I certainly do not feel the previous ravinous hunger and the cravings for chips, chocolates etc and strangely have had a desire to eat more fish and vegetables. I am certainly convinced that I am altering the neuropathways dedicated to food choice and preference although I do not think it wise to "test" my resolve with too much temptation.
The greatest gift my body is giving me is the capacity to walk/run and I am so enjoying the early morning jogs by the ocean. I do not think the Australian olympians have anything to fear but I am holding my own as a "seniors" runner and I am loving the feeling of being able to "move it move it move it"
I just felt like sharing a few positive thoughts today. Quite a journey and one which will likely never end for me. But I think I am getting there.
Thanks for reading.
Shel5 -
Shel, that update was so great to read: Congratulations on your progress. What a great payoff for the thought and effort you've invested! Looking forward to hearing about your next milestones.0
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Hey folks,
It's not "just about" weight loss me thinks. There is no doubt in my mind (now) that losing weight is mathematics, science and correct application of known facts about the qualities of foods, impact on the body and the metabolic requirements informed by our biological and environmental realities. In short, number of calories injested and the number of calories required by the demands placed on our physcial selves. There are no short cuts, no fad diets, no supplements and no magical bullets (that I am aware of at least) that can make weight loss happen in a healthy and sustainable manner unless any of these variables combine with making intelligent, informed and scientifcially-based good food choices.
A review of the questions and Threads listed in the the Discussion areas of this platform indicate that like me, users of this service are searching for that "light at the end of the tunnel" that might assist in giving us hope/faith/reassurance and even guidance with how we can manage the confronting and looming desire to have the body we so desparately crave. The topics tend to repeat and re-ask the obvious and hint at the futility of that which can only be answered if one is prepared to make the necessary changes (and at times sacrifices) in the transformation to health life-style choices.
It is more clear to me than ever that we are MORE than "we are what we eat".....We are what we think about eating. If we believe we "need" sugary and savoury foods more than we need balance, good nutrition and sensible cuisine, then we will always be at "war" in our minds with our right to eat what we want (need) and the truth about what certain foods and quantities do to our minds and bodies. It is this "war" which consumes many of us and makes us obsess and at times depressed with the inevitable impact of an endless conflict....exhaustion, exasperation and maybe even depression and anxiety; to say nothing of low self-esteem and deteriorated self-worth. The scale, although not to be over-used, will give us a reasonable reflection of our reality over time. No matter how we spin our "truths" regarding why the needle points far away from what we are longing for...we have to face the "number" and decide what our weight really means in terms of our patterns, choices and life-style over the course of our lives.
I know that regardless of my recent achievements with weight loss, I will be faced with the challenges of what I ought to eat, what I believe I deserve and what I end up consuming. My body will be required, as always, to manage my choices from the physiological imperitives inherent in metabolism and digestion.
No longer can I look at my body as the "enemy". It is a by-product of my choices and must considered as the machine which carries me through out life as best as it can with the fuel I put in its tank and the nutrition I provide to and for it. Perhaps, like the vintage car owners that cherish the old chariots that still have remarkble value but require constant tinkering and readjusting, I can love and care for this 64 year piece of equpiment like it is a finite and delicate unit; worthy of respect, love and responsible maintenance.
Wonder what your thoughts are as you read this?
Thank for reading
She
3
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