Imagining Our Bodies as a Relational Construct: You and Me

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  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,669 Member
    edited January 28
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    To be crystal clear I'm trying to figure out if you're near/at/or past the six month mark of deficit eating. And the relative size of the deficits you've been hitting as compared to your daily TDEE
  • shel80kg
    shel80kg Posts: 150 Member
    edited January 29
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    Hi, Thanks for your interest and I shall attempt to answer each question with accuracy:

    Am I recalling correctly that you started back in September, about 5 months or so ago at about 118kg?

    Yes. After seeing myself in a photo and breaking a plastic chair at a family event (the next day) I hit the ground running and embarked on this round of weight management. Although I was a bit frightened of weighing myself following the "traumatic" event of the chair debacle, I am fairly sure I was 118kg or more. Maybe 120 kg and change? I had not started until that period so my official date was September 8th 2023.

    Or maybe you started well before that? I don't think you ever did indicate your height, or perhaps I've missed it.

    Height 176 cm

    That said: whereabouts are you now in terms of this process?
    I am enjoying a relatively balanced diet with some noticeable (positive) changes to my appetite and eating behaviour. I am not missing the junk food component to my previous food consumption and strangely beginning to crave fish. How weird is that. From Twisties to fish....the new me.

    I am also loving my new fitness capacity and have noticed so much more agility and spring to my step. MY body is feeling awesome.

    How far down?
    Not sure but 80g has always been my dream goal. Long term plan would be to reach that by May or June (2024)


    How long since you started?

    5 months

    What sort of deficits are you achieving and what sort of TDEE are you maintaining? Traditionally we approximate by using 3500 Cal = 1lb in weight change.

    Trying to keep within 1500 to 2000 cal. Does that make sense?


    Are you using a weight trend app or are you navigating based on scale weight or is use of scale something you don't do? Do you use an activity tracker or do you use MFP to track or some other combination or no tracking at all?

    Relying on scale weight, how clothes are now fitting and clients, friends and family's reactions.

    From your posts I "see" someone who is putting a considerable amount of thought and effort into all this.

    I find scribbling out my thoughts can be cathartic and enjoyable (and I hope helpful?) Maybe boring to most.


    This is GOOD. Really good. Because thinking things through can allow for adjustment. And adjustment, when and if appropriate, can help lead to sustainability of effort and continuing compliance. And sustainability of effort and continuing compliance is what will get us--all of us--our results.

    Yes. I have "yo-yoed" too many times in my weight management "career" and I hope I can use some degree of intelligence, honesty and regulation to keep up my success. I am feeling really really good.

    But I am also, perhaps incorrectly, getting the vibe that AT TIMES you may be feeling a bit frustrated. Hence my questions above.

    Hmmmm, like Donald Trump, frustration (for him "chaos" ) has followed me most of my life. At my age, 64, I still wonder how I create my own irritaton and frustration with myself.

    I hold the view that I create our own misery quite often. Not that we do this intentionally but perhaps we just don't consider future consequences from our choices. I am good at playing it forward for others but not so much for me. The early September experiences ought not to have been such a surprise. I carry me in my body all of the time so paying attention to the weight and size should be obvious.

    I think I dissociate from my body/weight rather quickly (perhaps some early child-hood trauma) and I can easily ignore the weight gain which just creeps up on me. I know that sounds a bit passive and I know I am responsible for my choices. Hence, my sense of reality checking now so I can live in my aware mind and make meaningful and constructive choices without completely disowning the joys and pleasures of nice food.

    Myfitnesspal has been one of my main sources of support and I am grateful to it and the nice people like you who bother to take the time to comment, reflect and ask questions.

    Thanks for your questions and interests and I hope I showed you the respect (I feel) you deserved by answering honestly.
    Take care
    Shel
    (off to eat some fish).
  • mtaratoot
    mtaratoot Posts: 13,288 Member
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    shel80kg wrote: »
    I hold the view that I create our own misery quite often. Not that we do this intentionally but perhaps we just don't consider future consequences from our choices. I am good at playing it forward for others but not so much for me. The early September experiences ought not to have been such a surprise. I carry me in my body all of the time so paying attention to the weight and size should be obvious.

    Shel,

    The bolded part above struck a chord for me.

    I don't usually do "New Year's Resolutions," but I do often reflect on my past and future. I do this more than once during the year - there are many different observations of "New" year.

    Last year I focused on gratitude. I was already doing OK with it, but it was my focus. I think I improved. There's still work to do, and I won't stop working on it.

    I had not come up with something new to work on this year until it dawned on my while listening to a podcast; self-compassion. Like you, I sometimes don't do a good job with it. For sure it will continue to be a goal. I am for sure a work in progress, and I don't know if I'll ever call myself successful. I think it's a worthwhile pursuit, and I hope you find a way to do it as well.

  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,669 Member
    edited January 30
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    A reminder that in addition to the various mental challenges (such as under which conditions and why each of us as an individual tends to overeat even when we are not physically hungry) there also exist physiological aspects to weight loss.

    I am not certain that you are indicating that you are trying to keep your food intake to between 1500 to 2000 Cal or if you're trying to keep your deficit between the two numbers. I suspect the first.

    A few back calculations put your stated goals as wanting to lose 88lbs in 39 weeks or an AVERAGE of 2.26lbs a week.

    This would be going from September to June. And while it would not exceed 1% of body weight lost per week while you're above 100kg, it WOULD exceed that mark when you're below 220lbs.

    I also note that more people tend to find 0.5% of body weight lost per week more easy to sustain longer term than rates closer to 1%

    A loss of 2.26lbs a week translates to a weekly deficit of 7910 Cal. Or a bit more than 1100 a day.

    Your target eating being in the 1500 to 2000 range with a deficit of 1100 a day puts your TDEE in the 2600 to 3100 range. Before people object to that, I note that I would consider it quite feasibe for a 176 cm guy having direct personal experience that it is feasible for a 172.5cm guy :wink:

    What sticks out, to me, a bit, is that 1100/2600=42.31% deficit, or conversely, 1100/3100=35.48% deficit.

    Both of these numbers are incredibly taxing on the body.

    Just a heads up as you make plans and adjustments that the traditional "reaction" point for large deficits tends to come up when people get closer to the 6+ month mark and to the mid point of the overweight range.

    Generally speaking 25% deficits while carrying fat levels that would have you correctly classified as obese and 20% deficits while carrying energy reserves that would have you correctly classified in the mid overweight to normal range are already quite aggressive.

    In fact, longer term, people may find it easier to comply with and adhere to plans that require smaller as opposed to larger deficits. The risk of gallbladder stones with rapid loss is also far from insignificant.

    It sounds like you're currently at a good spot. This is good. And I would be hypocritical if I were to pretend that I didn't (and wouldn't) ride the happy wave while things are going good.

    But I was also lucky enough to recognize when I was over-pushing the envelope and to adjust.

    So my suggestion to you would be to keep an open mind and to not hesitate to adjust your calories towards a smaller deficit, without self recrimination and without angst, should you start finding yourself coming up with thoughts that would jeopardize the continuity of your effort.

    Food obsessions (and I am not talking about fish), irritability, headaches, lack of strength, fatigue, that may exist before you eat and diminish soon after, feeling that you're not getting rewarded enough for your efforts are all things that should raise various levels of caution flags if they come into play.

    Making things easy enough to continue to stay in the game is the only way you will be able to stay in the game and the process of weight loss and maintenance is not one of nine months or one year.

    Think in terms of 5+ years and make your choices according to the longer term to avoid the two phase trap you discussed above.
  • shel80kg
    shel80kg Posts: 150 Member
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    That was very helpful Pav so thank you for the number crunching and the reflections (as well as the sound advice).
    I am curious about your rational for presuming that my TDEE could be between 2600 and 3100 calories? I try and work out at the gym and or go for run/walks 5 times a week now ( and burn between 300 to 500 calories at a time). Were you adding this into the mix? I ask that because when I calculate my TDEE on one of the available calculators on the net, 2000c is about average (although I tend not to include body fat as one of the dependent variables. My thought was that if I could keep calories to approx 1000 for most days between now and June, I may finally reach my target....but I am wondering now (after having read your comments) if I am being realistic let alone responsible for such a dramatic change?
    I think I can and perhaps ought to be more patient now and considered with meal adaptations. I want to be in the long game now as it is just too taxing physcially and mentally to going up and down. This is really important to me and I will appreciate all of the wisdom and help I can get. Thanks again.
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,669 Member
    edited January 30
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    I can only go by the numbers you give out. So their accuracy is predicated on what I am working with :)

    You said September to July, 88lbs, and indicated you're on track.
    that's 9 months so 75% of 52 weeks = 39 weeks.

    88lbs * 3500 Cal / 39 weeks = a bit more than 1125 Cal a day.

    If you're achieving that and eating 1500, TDEE which is your total daily energy expenditure including all exercise would be 1500+1125 = 2625. If you're achieving that 1125 Cal deficit while eating 2000 Cal then your TDEE is 3125. I rounded a bit.

    That includes everything movement and exercise and breathing and is based just on calories logged as eaten and weight change.

    Calculators can ESTIMATE a starting point for what you will spend.

    The quality of your logging, of course is a variable. and could be "on" or "off". But if your logging is consistent and you add your body weight TREND change the two together give you an estimate that is workable for YOU.

    My Fitbit gives me an estimate of my TDEE. But my logging and weight change is what validates it.

    Once you're sufficiently into the game your own numbers predict you better than a web based estimation.

    Of course without exact figures I am probably off. But the calculation is something you can do for yourself and the concepts of deficit as % of TDEE and weight loss as a % of body weight are mentioned by others from time to time.

    While slightly off from one another if you sit and calculate them (the % of body weight tends to produce a larger deficit) ... they offer a workable approximation of what would be a middle path between too little and too much speed.

    My own experience was that 695 Cal per year deficit for a year (-72.5) on average was fairly fast (at the limits of what I would consider to have been safe in retrospect) for myself. And I actually applied increased activity that allowed me to eat on average 2560 Cal per day during that time period, i.e. it was an average deficit of "only" 21.35% of TDEE. This came after having already lost 40-45lbs before MFP so it was longer than a year cumulatively. I then spent another year 2015-2016 losing 11.1lbs and training for maintenance :wink: Before calling the next year (2016-2017) the beginning of maintenance.

    Of course I would not have called it training at the time... just very slow loss! :blush:

    But. This is me. What I am highlighting to you is that this is not a lose weight and call it a day thing. And that, in addition to feeling good, there are also cumulative stresses that are piling on underneath and that the current level of energy reserves plus the speed of loss (plus your own uniqueness) do all play into how the stresses pile up.

    Just try to apply your powers of observation to yourself and be willing to adjust and seek the paths that allow you to keep on keeping on. Speed of results is not what matters. Developing long term workable processes --for you-- DO matter.

    again n=1 limitations to my observations and all that.
  • shel80kg
    shel80kg Posts: 150 Member
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    Thanks for the clarifications. I will think and re-think my process and slow the plan down a bit. Makes sense.
    Thanks again
  • Adventurista
    Adventurista Posts: 402 Member
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    Ok?
  • shel80kg
    shel80kg Posts: 150 Member
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    Hi Epoch,
    I am very moved that you reached out. I just don't get on the platform as often as I would like due to personal circumstances but I am doing well. I know that I share (at times) the emotional side of me on this platform and I may leave readers thinking that I am a bit fragile. I do agree that I am moody and easily impacted (triggered) by certain topics and opinions. At the same time, I am resilient and push through with the many challenges in my life and look at life with curiousity and optimism. Thank you again for checking in.
  • shel80kg
    shel80kg Posts: 150 Member
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    I have been reflecting on weight loss from a motivational perspective and wondered if those of us who are frequent flyers in the dieting game need to address (honestly) how we came to be overweight and even more importantly, why we allowed fat to accumulate in obvious placed on our bodies in an almost dissociated/unaware manner.

    So many individuals are commenting on how good I look and how my body has changed. Although it is great to hear that, I do have mixed emotions with regards to the feedback I am receiving. I am not sure if I can share with you in precise terms which feelings but it would be most similar to some degree of discomfort and anxiety.

    I wonder how my family and friends saw me and thought of me when I was at my largest? Did they worry about me? Was my body grotesque from their point of view? Was it unpleasant to be around me as I certainly could not disguise my obesity.

    Instead they were being kind and respectful I imagine and choosing to not let my fat body not be a focal point in any discussion.

    So....if the "outside world" tolerated my physique, I imagine this assisted in my dissociation and ease of avoidance. Ahhhh. Perhaps that is why, when I broke a plastic chair in September and saw pictures of my at a family function I had a major break down. That makes sense. I confronted myself with the truth. Is that what it takes? Is that what motivates us? Something happens and we cannot turn away from the reality. And if that is what happenned and we start to take our situations seriously, how do we maintain the "momentum" when the original catalyst loosens its grip on our shame and guilt?.

    Now....I have to not driven by shame or guilt; nor do I want to be running from the fear of recycling back to fat man. It has to be a labour of love and appreciation for healthy eating and treating my body as a friend, and as a machine that requires objective and consistent maintenance. Food is fuel and not the conduent to my happiness or a replacement for an exciting fulfilling life. Perhaps the motivation will be derived from the level above constantly thinking about food, weight loss, MPF, the scales, the gym, etc. Perhaps that higher level is the level of living the considered and value-based life with intention and mindfulness. I don't want to keep going back down to world of dieting and endless cycles. There is so much more to live for.

    In any case, if you read this far, thank you and I would love to know your thoughts?
    Thanks
    Shel


  • Adventurista
    Adventurista Posts: 402 Member
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    Alright!

    Yes.

    find the discussions thought provoking, but my reply limited by typos on tiny keyboard, lol. Hope to get on puter for a longer rambletude...

    i am glad to have more to ponder... disappear, not... ;)
  • shel80kg
    shel80kg Posts: 150 Member
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    I learned at a family dinner that young people are getting their nutritional knowledge and guidance from the "expertise" available on Tik Tok, Instagram etc. My 16 year old grandson has embraced the Carnivore diet and believes that vegetbles and fats are superflous and meat is the "bomb". His evidence is soley reliant on the 30 to 45 second video clips which prove his thesis that if "cows eat plants and we eat cows, why should we eat plants as well"? "

    His sister, holds the view that one loses weight from going to the gym for 2 hours a day so that you can eat whatever you want and make yourself strong so you won't be bullied at HighSchool. Her references are derived from the three sources on Instagram from kids who have discovered these "truthisms".

    Here I am, trying to work out, at the age of 64, how to shed my final 10 kg ( and then keep it off) and somehow I believe that I might not be any more insightful then the neonates 100 years younger than me.

    We all tend to be at the mercy of misinformation and incorrect ideas regardng the science and truth regarding body function and food impact and we allow ourselves to embrace fad diets, nonsensical approaches and questionable eating suggestions when there is a more honest and accurate set of explanations and recommendations which will lead to healthy body management.

    I hope I can do my part to quell my impatience and anxieties surrounding being overweight and just work through the process with common sense and accurate information. It does not have to be so hard to get this right. Just the right plan.
  • ddsb1111
    ddsb1111 Posts: 774 Member
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    Yoolypr wrote: »
    Let us dispel the notion that weight loss is impossible as we age. I was 70 when I finally decided NO MORE. I am not at ideal weight but about 100 lbs down with maybe 20 to go. Loose skin was inevitable. Even if this is as good as it gets I’m happy. The last five years have been a revelation and wonderful.

    That’s beautiful, I agree with you, and so happy you stopped finding reason why you can’t and started finding reasons why you can. That’s all it takes, no matter how fast or slow. You should be on a poster, I just love this so much.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 32,242 Member
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    Shel, that update was so great to read: Congratulations on your progress. What a great payoff for the thought and effort you've invested! Looking forward to hearing about your next milestones.
  • shel80kg
    shel80kg Posts: 150 Member
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    Hey folks,

    It's not "just about" weight loss me thinks. There is no doubt in my mind (now) that losing weight is mathematics, science and correct application of known facts about the qualities of foods, impact on the body and the metabolic requirements informed by our biological and environmental realities. In short, number of calories injested and the number of calories required by the demands placed on our physcial selves. There are no short cuts, no fad diets, no supplements and no magical bullets (that I am aware of at least) that can make weight loss happen in a healthy and sustainable manner unless any of these variables combine with making intelligent, informed and scientifcially-based good food choices.

    A review of the questions and Threads listed in the the Discussion areas of this platform indicate that like me, users of this service are searching for that "light at the end of the tunnel" that might assist in giving us hope/faith/reassurance and even guidance with how we can manage the confronting and looming desire to have the body we so desparately crave. The topics tend to repeat and re-ask the obvious and hint at the futility of that which can only be answered if one is prepared to make the necessary changes (and at times sacrifices) in the transformation to health life-style choices.

    It is more clear to me than ever that we are MORE than "we are what we eat".....We are what we think about eating. If we believe we "need" sugary and savoury foods more than we need balance, good nutrition and sensible cuisine, then we will always be at "war" in our minds with our right to eat what we want (need) and the truth about what certain foods and quantities do to our minds and bodies. It is this "war" which consumes many of us and makes us obsess and at times depressed with the inevitable impact of an endless conflict....exhaustion, exasperation and maybe even depression and anxiety; to say nothing of low self-esteem and deteriorated self-worth. The scale, although not to be over-used, will give us a reasonable reflection of our reality over time. No matter how we spin our "truths" regarding why the needle points far away from what we are longing for...we have to face the "number" and decide what our weight really means in terms of our patterns, choices and life-style over the course of our lives.

    I know that regardless of my recent achievements with weight loss, I will be faced with the challenges of what I ought to eat, what I believe I deserve and what I end up consuming. My body will be required, as always, to manage my choices from the physiological imperitives inherent in metabolism and digestion.

    No longer can I look at my body as the "enemy". It is a by-product of my choices and must considered as the machine which carries me through out life as best as it can with the fuel I put in its tank and the nutrition I provide to and for it. Perhaps, like the vintage car owners that cherish the old chariots that still have remarkble value but require constant tinkering and readjusting, I can love and care for this 64 year piece of equpiment like it is a finite and delicate unit; worthy of respect, love and responsible maintenance.

    Wonder what your thoughts are as you read this?

    Thank for reading
    She

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