Imagining Our Bodies as a Relational Construct: You and Me
Replies
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Feeling much better this morning. A close friend asked me if I might be setting my expectations too high. Is there a danger with regards to being too strict and creating something unsustainable. I was defensive at first but now I’m sitting with the discomfort of the challenge that I may be demanding quick results and not developing long term habits. I think I need to be strict or rigid for awhile but I will think more about a longer term plan. If we are honest with ourselves most of us have been doing this for many years. I wonder why?
Yes there is. I honestly think it may be one of the most common causes for failing in the long term, based on threads I've read here in the 8+ years since I joined MFP.
Fast loss via restrictive eating and/or extreme exercise can be a trap. Those are more likely to cause deprivation-triggered over-eating eventually, possible breaks in progress, and even possibly giving up altogether earlier rather than later. (For someone who has a meaningful total amount of weight to lose, even fast loss takes a long time. Sustainability matters.)
Extreme tactics also contribute nearly zero to learning new permanent habits for staying at a healthy weight once one reaches goal. That's a forever endeavor.
A longer term plan is really important. Sooner or later, to maintain weight, a person has to settle into a relatively easy, relatively practical eating routine, one that can continue almost on autopilot when other parts of life get complicated . . . because they will.
That's complemented by an approach to activity (exercise and otherwise) that permits good life balance. "Good life balance" is enough time and energy for job, family, social life, non-exercise hobbies, or anything else important to the person.
I'd argue strongly that one needs to start finding those habits sometime during weight loss . . . maybe not right away, but well in advance of actually reaching goal weight. One can start experimenting to find those new sustainable tactics while there's still the calorie deficit in the picture to cushion any oopsies.
Not every tactic experimented with will be sustainable. Once one finds some reasonable ones, it takes time to groove them in as near-autopilot habits.
Arriving at goal weight without most of that dialed in is a recipe for "going back to normal" and regaining.
I don't argue that everyone has to do it exactly like I did, but I decided up front that I wasn't going to do anything to lose weight that I wasn't willing to continue forever to stay at a healthy weight, except for the sensibly moderate calorie deficit. I'm happy with how that turned out. (I'd been overweight to obese for around 30 years. I've been at a healthy weight for 7+ now.)
Sometimes I wonder if we have a subconscious feeling that fatness is a sin, so we have to suffer during weight loss to expiate it. It just isn't so.
I like this line of thought you're having about sustainability.1 -
Feeling much better this morning. A close friend asked me if I might be setting my expectations too high. Is there a danger with regards to being too strict and creating something unsustainable. I was defensive at first but now I’m sitting with the discomfort of the challenge that I may be demanding quick results and not developing long term habits. I think I need to be strict or rigid for awhile but I will think more about a longer term plan. If we are honest with ourselves most of us have been doing this for many years. I wonder why?
Don't practice what you don't want to become. It's funny sometimes that what we need the most is always where you least want to look, so be resilient by exposing yourself to things that make you feel uncomfortable, that seems to work for me. Friedrich Nietzsche, that German guy that thinks a lot once brilliantly said, “He whose life has a why can bear almost any how.”0 -
I have to be honest. I am obsessed with Brendan Fraser's depiction of Charlie in "The Whale". He weaponized his body after his partner died (quite possibly suicide) and becomes an eating machine. Yet, he shaves every day, keeps his place relatively neat and tide, surrounds himself with books and memories, and commits to helping his daughter. A beautiful man, clearly, but lost in his grief, shame and sad life and does not reach out for help. He accepts the support from his friend Liz but she has a type of codependent relationship with Charlie as she needs him as much as he needs her. Watch his face as he consumes his food. He cannot get it in his body quickly enough and has no ability (or is completely disinterested) in managing his food intake ; as he is truly inviting death. What I learn from this is that the relationship with our bodies determines our relationship with food. We don't care what happens to us and the impacts of crappy food....we eat anything and everything...sooner or later. Don't deal with our psychological issues and traumas. Well, folk, they deal with us. Now, many (most) of you here probably just have a few KG to shed here and there and would like to reduce your shape by a few inches. But....in the world of eating disorders which I am pretty sure I am a card caring member, the paradigm is dramatically different and requires a very careful, thought out plan with support and quite likely professional assistance including therapy, nutritional guidance, personal fitness support etc. As I write this, I just became aware that I should not think my thoughts and ideas are neither conventional or helpful to a majority of you as you can close the fridge/cupboard/drawers of chocolates, chips etc. and carry on with the day. But there are a few of us who really really struggle with our negative relationsips with oour body and by proxy food and it is quite a challenge. Just thought I would share this. Having said what I have been contemplating, I am very motivated and I am going to achieve my goals this time. I just hope I can do it more kindly and systematically than Charile (and me in the past). Thanks for reading this.5
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It was good to be able to work through what was bugging me the other day. I think I turned a corner. It's about moderation not deprivation and just working through our own individual issues. This platform is good for that. I had a "normal" eating day yesterday. 3 meals of really nice healthy food and it felt great. I guess we have to go through whatever is true and real for us and perhaps we can never really know what is going on for us until we take the risk and allow ourselves to be vulnerable. With great respect, most of the threads and conversations I have read seem a bit surfacy and repetative. "Why can't lose weght"?, "Why am I stuck at a certain weight"? "What can I eat that doesn't make me fat"? "Is it all about the calories....."? And on and on and on. Somehow I think answering these questions becomes an act of futility as the "askers" haven't really admitted that the weight management problems go much deeper than whether to understand the most basic concepts of nutrition and metabolic processes. And drilling down to the minutia of these areas of science aren't likely to improve or alter or more established patterns and habits. I think its more about the relationshp we have with ourselves and our body...hence this thread. Of course we need to understand the prinicples of good eating and healthy life style. But....we need to care about ourselves enough to make these prinicples a reality, a promise, a commitment. Like in any healthy relationship. We have to be honest, respectful and kind and commuicate honestly and effictively with ourselves. I wonder what your thoughts are about this?
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Why was it hard to read?
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Why was it hard to read?
It's like a wall of words. Paragraphs are much easier to read and are more inviting. Your punctuation is fine but sometimes many posts leave a lot to be desired and compounded with a wall of words, makes it almost impossible to read and a lot of people will just give the wall of words a pass. I didn't, I found it ok, but many won't bother. imo5 -
neanderthin wrote: »Paragraphs are much easier to read and are more inviting.
Agreed. With word wrap and good line length settings big paragraph can work. In these forums with their variable presentations, smaller paragraphs serve to make it more approachable.
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Thank you for the feedback.
Do you think I am verbose?
Perhaps less is better
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Thank you for the feedback.
Do you think I am verbose?
Perhaps less is better
A couple of things, no opinion on your verbosity, and a bit of typography is just a kindness to your readers. Though of course you a free to do your thing.
Misquoting Voltaire "I'm sorry for writing such a long letter, I didn't have time to make it shorter."0 -
Thank you for your feedback
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I must apologize for my "wall of words" and for making my blog hard to read.
If I could simplify my overarching reason for creating this thread it would be this: I submit that there is merit in identifying the perceptions, beliefs, and values we carry towards our own bodies and what factors may influence how connected we are to the physical self.
It may seem obvious to some that we are a "complete"unit; mind and body and when we eat for example, we have a good working knowledge of how the consumed food will impact our biological hardware and end up as immediate fuel, stored fat, and/or contribute to the nutritional needs of the hundreds of chemical reactions which occur 24/7 through out our body.
Sadly for me, I never really gave much thought to any of this and on that fateful day (about a month ago), when I broke a chair at a relative's home and then saw pictures of me on that same day, realitiy hit. This may sound quite dramatic and my apologies if I am assuming that my experiences my be in any way common. Regardless, it is my truth and after so many dieting cycles, I think it is helpful for me to embrace the concept of a relational connection with my body rather than just a container or vessel I exist in.
It gets fat because of what I eat and how I treat it. It gets health(ier) when I bother to consider it in my choices and decisions. Seems so simple. Maybe it is with the advent of insight.But...some of us are slow learners.
In any case, this is why I started the thread.
Shel
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I must apologize for my "wall of words" and for making my blog hard to read.
If I could simplify my overarching reason for creating this thread it would be this: I submit that there is merit in identifying the perceptions, beliefs, and values we carry towards our own bodies and what factors may influence how connected we are to the physical self.
It may seem obvious to some that we are a "complete"unit; mind and body and when we eat for example, we have a good working knowledge of how the consumed food will impact our biological hardware and end up as immediate fuel, stored fat, and/or contribute to the nutritional needs of the hundreds of chemical reactions which occur 24/7 through out our body.
Sadly for me, I never really gave much thought to any of this and on that fateful day (about a month ago), when I broke a chair at a relative's home and then saw pictures of me on that same day, realitiy hit. This may sound quite dramatic and my apologies if I am assuming that my experiences my be in any way common. Regardless, it is my truth and after so many dieting cycles, I think it is helpful for me to embrace the concept of a relational connection with my body rather than just a container or vessel I exist in.
It gets fat because of what I eat and how I treat it. It gets health(ier) when I bother to consider it in my choices and decisions. Seems so simple. Maybe it is with the advent of insight.But...some of us are slow learners.
In any case, this is why I started the thread.
Shel
Now that's real, genuine, and relatable. I appreciate your straightforwardness. I think sometimes we try to hide ourselves behind words. "Speech was given to man to conceal his thoughts", to some extent.3 -
What a beautiful quote Solly and thanks for givng me another chance.
Shel
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Today,for the first time ever, I measured neck, waist, arms, and thighs which was so revealing. I know this may sound weird but fat is stored every where. under skin, around organs, around muscles....and places I probably can't even imagine. Again, as I am learning about my body I am discovering what has happenned to it over the years in a far more curious and fascinating way.
I have broken two chairs in my illustrious career as a fat human and can share with a bit of shame that I have clothes that can fit someone from a 32 inch waste to 42 inches. What have I been missing, avoiding and pretending all of these decades?
My body has been required to manage the patterns and cycles of my eating behavour and I have ignored the most obvious priniciple of weight management. You become what you eat.
No matter what the psychological reasons are for what and how we eat, the body will do what it is designed to do to keep us alive as it digests and processes, burns and/or stores fat and allows us to live.
Gosh, if we treated our cars the way we treat our bodies, how would are vehicles actually run and remain reliable?
I am just reflecting on this today. I hope I can learn to respect my body and understand it well enough to learn how to look after it with more care and attention.2 -
Humans are hard wired through evolutionary processes and created the ability to store body fat for times of starvation and food scarcity that our ancestors couldn't and of course the amount of energy seeking out those foods was our basic preoccupation as well. Unfortunately food can be ordered without lifting our butt off a chair. Also certain foods do change some pretty important hormonal signaling in the brain and in our gut that are involved with our hunger as well. Basically being opportunistic omnivores isn't working for us anymore and we need to push back from the unbelievable success that is civilization, which is what you are attempting to do. imo3
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I think your writing reads like the actual thoughts we have, I enjoy it. Similar to Freewriting but more organized. Focused Freewriting let’s call it. Please don’t edit down, the paragraph breaks are more than enough IMO.
What have I been missing, avoiding and pretending all of these decades?
The answer is elusive, and I often ponder it about others and myself. We each have a story and it’s important not to compare. For every overweight person who may struggle to control food intake there’s a skinny person terrified to eat more than X amount of calories. Everyone needs to answer that question and make peace within themselves so the rest can fall in place.
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It was good to be able to work through what was bugging me the other day. I think I turned a corner. It's about moderation not deprivation and just working through our own individual issues. This platform is good for that. I had a "normal" eating day yesterday. 3 meals of really nice healthy food and it felt great. I guess we have to go through whatever is true and real for us and perhaps we can never really know what is going on for us until we take the risk and allow ourselves to be vulnerable.
With great respect, most of the threads and conversations I have read seem a bit surfacy and repetative. "Why can't lose weght"?, "Why am I stuck at a certain weight"? "What can I eat that doesn't make me fat"? "Is it all about the calories....."? And on and on and on. Somehow I think answering these questions becomes an act of futility as the "askers" haven't really admitted that the weight management problems go much deeper than whether to understand the most basic concepts of nutrition and metabolic processes. And drilling down to the minutia of these areas of science aren't likely to improve or alter or more established patterns and habits.
I think its more about the relationshp we have with ourselves and our body...hence this thread. Of course we need to understand the prinicples of good eating and healthy life style. But....we need to care about ourselves enough to make these prinicples a reality, a promise, a commitment. Like in any healthy relationship. We have to be honest, respectful and kind and commuicate honestly and effictively with ourselves. I wonder what your thoughts are about this?
I've been self-soothing/self-medicating with food since I was 12. When I had a very active job and lifestyle, my weight was under control. But the older I get, the harder it is to make that happen, especially since I now hurt myself a lot more easily, and take a much longer time to recover.
When stress goes up, my urge to self-soothe with food goes up. Since COVID hit, and subsequent family issues, stress has been through the roof. I'm a veteran, and sought therapy end of March 2020. I've also taken 8-12 week classes in ACT, CBT, and stress management, none of which really helped with food. Now, cognitive behavioral therapy is considered to be quite effective for eating disorders, and I think its a great place to start. But unfortunately, it didn't really help me, and I even repeated the Behavioral model.
But now I'm in a dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) group, and it's clicking! I'm finding the Distress Tolerance module extremely helpful to find other ways to self-soothe than with food.
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Thank you ddsb1111. I think it is so important that we find ways to tell our stories and create spaces in our lives for the narratives of others. Perhaps this is how we truly grow and develop and assist others in feeling validated and listened to. I know there is a detailed science to health management and weight control and to ignore leaves us at the mercy of our own beliefs and assumptions.In other words, we can fool ourselves into thinking that we can take short cuts and pretend that we are doing all of the "right" things.
My story is one of the "roller-coaster" approach to dieting; losing my weight quickly and then gaining it back even faster.....and then ignoring the problem until the pressure builds, the chairs collapse and the pants split. It's interesting as I reflect on this as it never seemed like a cycle. But it was.
Hopefully this time, I can take it a bit more slowly and responsibly. That is my plan.
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Greetings from the peanut gallery. I’ve enjoyed reading all the descriptive comments from such articulate people. I am curious to know your thoughts about Walmart’s recent comments regarding their dilemma about future grocery shopping habits due to the new weight loss medications. They foresee, alas, slimmed down shoppers wanting wholesome foods. The nerve of them!1
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KerryBSoCal wrote: »Greetings from the peanut gallery. I’ve enjoyed reading all the descriptive comments from such articulate people. I am curious to know your thoughts about Walmart’s recent comments regarding their dilemma about future grocery shopping habits due to the new weight loss medications. They foresee, alas, slimmed down shoppers wanting wholesome foods. The nerve of them!
They'll adapt. Stores find what sells. It's what they do. That changes depending on what the customers want.3 -
KerryBSoCal wrote: »Greetings from the peanut gallery. I’ve enjoyed reading all the descriptive comments from such articulate people. I am curious to know your thoughts about Walmart’s recent comments regarding their dilemma about future grocery shopping habits due to the new weight loss medications. They foresee, alas, slimmed down shoppers wanting wholesome foods. The nerve of them!
That's what they do: Use data to see what's selling to whom, then they adapt accordingly. Sellers adapt to demand, not just attempt to shape it.
I'd point out some context on this (emphasis mine):
Source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/walmart-says-users-weight-loss-173541499.html (via NBC).The retail giant is comparing shoppers who pick up a prescription for those medications at its pharmacies to shoppers who are otherwise similar but aren't filling those scripts at Walmart. Using anonymized data, it's looking for patterns in the spending of those groups, and it says the first group is buying less food.
Doug McMillon, CEO of Walmart, Inc., said in August that the growing popularity of the drugs was helping its sales.
In other words, either more people are shopping for other stuff at Walmart because they go there to get their GLP-1 drugs at a price point they prefer, or the profits from those drug sales (or other sales) offset the small drop in food revenue.
Bloomberg and Fortune - mainstream business reporting sites - say similar things about the overall picture, and point to the sales of GLP-1 drugs as the offsetting factor.
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KerryBSoCal wrote: »Greetings from the peanut gallery. I’ve enjoyed reading all the descriptive comments from such articulate people. I am curious to know your thoughts about Walmart’s recent comments regarding their dilemma about future grocery shopping habits due to the new weight loss medications. They foresee, alas, slimmed down shoppers wanting wholesome foods. The nerve of them!
Interesting topic! I started a new thread for it:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10901186/walmart-ceo-says-ozempic-drug-could-be-impacting-grocery-sales/p11 -
I need to do more reading regarding the impact of weight-loss medication on food selection and consumption. I am reasonably convinced that even the most effective weight-loss drug cannot improve the general diet of humans without sufficient education and encouragement (through incentives and affordable prices). I do not believe that the large multi-national food corporations care about our heath for an instant so it is up to each one of us to know enough about what we are eating to make better choices.
Having said that, I will likely treat myself (occassionally) to a salty bag of Twisties or even worse potato-chips which I know will thwart that days efforts to eat wholistically and I will exceed the recommended amounts of "this" and "that".
MY hope is that the pervasive desire to transform this aging body from a refridgerator into an oven will over-ride most temptions and eating violations and.....so far so good. But, it's only been a month.
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Over the past two weeks, I chose to read the words of others who struggle with weight loss and food management. One of the consistent concerns expressed by writers is the frustration with how their bodies are responding (or NOT responding) to the (alleged) changes to food intake and the apparent resistance to loosing weight.
In my mind it sounds like a war between food, the body and the promise of redemption from the scale’s glaring truth. It can feel futile and hopeless and it is understandable that those of us who are repeat offenders blame the food and resent our physical selves.
Perhaps this is the essence of “denial” and not everyone who lives in Egypt lives in denial.
It is ME and I mean the entire me that is responsible for the weight I am although the multinational food corporations who pack food with crap, our conditioned learning, and our socioeconomic realities certainly contribute. Genetics??? Juries out. But…. At the end of the day….my food, my choice.
I want a positive relationship with this body that carries me through the decades of my existence. What I feed it is up to me. How it manages the intake is pure science and evolutionary technology.
I know that I have to get real with being honest and respectful with how I orient myself to the part if me I want to redesign and re-scaffold.
It has to be a labour of love, respect and encouragement. Complete awareness and honest disclosures. No shame and no judgement.
It takes time to rediscover ourselves and arrive at the process and plan that will work the best for our intended aims but the "program" has to consider/embrace the science and the known facts. No short cuts I'm afraid. Isn't that the best approach to life anyways?
I would like to hear your thoughts.
Shel
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Over the past two weeks, I chose to read the words of others who struggle with weight loss and food management. One on the consistent concerns expressed by writers is the frustration with how their bodies are responding to the (alleged) changes to food intake and the apparent resistance to loosing weight. In my mind it sounds like a war between food, the body and the promise of redemption from the scale’s glaring truth. It can feel futile and hopeless and it is understandable that those of us who are repeat offenders blame the food and resent our physical selves.
Perhaps this is the essence of “denial” and not everyone who lives in Egypt lives in denial.
It is ME and I mean the entire me that is responsible for the weight I am although the multinational food corporations who pack food with crap, our conditioned learning and our socioeconomic realities certainly contribute. Genetics??? Juries out. But…. At the end of the day….my food, my choice.
I want a positive relationship with this body that carries me through the decades of my existence. What I feed it is up to me. How it manages the intake is pure science and evolutionary technology. I know that I have to get real with being honest and respectful to how I orient myself to the part if me I want to redesign and re-scaffold. It has to be a labour of love, respect and encouragement.
I would like to hear your thoughts.
Shel
I agree that the bolded is the crux.
The actual practical problems are much more complex, of course - the emotional, cultural, etc.
One of the most useful (to me) things I learned along the way was - of all things! - from a management education workshop. The idea is that when something occurs that I don't want or don't like, I should first think about what I've done to create, promote, or allow that situation.
The point is not self blame. The point is that that focuses my attention on the parts of the situation that I personally control, or at least influence.
Those things are the factors I can use to change the situation.
In every situation, at minimum I control my own response. I may control very little else, but I may have influence (short of control), or in lucky cases I have quite a lot of control.
When it comes to eating and activity, I have a lot of control: Near total. No one else puts food in my mouth, chews and swallows . . . just me. No one duct-tapes me into my reclining chair in front of the TV or computer so I can't move.
If I'm not active, or not eating in support of my claimed goals, that's a decision. My decision. I need to own that.
There may be financial or practical constraints on eating, or responsibilities that limit physical activity, but the limitations aren't total.
The only point in thinking about a genuine obstacle is to find ways to get over, around, through or otherwise past it. Beyond that, blaming (self or others), resenting, catastrophizing about it, or whatever - total waste of energy that could be better spent elsewhere.
I'm not saying that I behave perfectly in accord with those ideas, but that's my aspiration.
I agree with you that self-valuing is also a key piece: Even if I have (near-) total control, I'll still make negative decisions until I truly want and commit to a better course. Health is founded on some form of self-valuing. That can be nuanced, such as self-valuing that includes consideration of others (such as parents who commit to health improvement for the sake of their children).5 -
Hi Folks
Sorry for the long absence. I'm still a card caring member of Ketosis (although I am taking noticeable breaks as I do not want to be a zealout without a cause). My research has convinced me that our bodies ought to be allowed to operate in a multi-facetted way and metabolsing carbs and managing sugar intakes (within reason) out to be part of our physiological reality. This may make more sense than just a "fun fact" statement. I don't want to be so strict with my eating that I feel like I am in a state of complete deprivation so....there you go.
I am pleased that I have dissolved about 12 kg of body mass (fat???) and I sure feel the difference. Thank you body for responding and giving me a more positve sense of health, movement, fitness and appearance. It all matters.
I am taking the relationship between my mind and body as seriously as can without sounding schizophrenic. There are many parts to us and if we see ourselves as a bit more "divisible" then perhaps we can set meaningful goals across a range of areas that will improve our lives at many levels. It is not just about food and exercise...but lifestyle and general well being.
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103.4 kg today. Yahoo!. Thank you body for going through this (again) with me. I cannot imagine how much stress I have put you through over the years. Making you huge with massive layers of fat and all of the physiological pressure on the heart, joints, muscles etc. Trying to hide the stomach by wearing larger shirts than required (when I could find them) and making it hard for you to move even from the chair to the fridge. It has been quite a journey this time and not an easy one for either of us. You are an older body now and not nearly as "elastic" and I am exercising you more than ever. You are adjusting, coping and changing and giving me very positive feedback. This is the middle of month three and it feels great to be your friend, ally and support person as I get to decide what goes into you "literally". And you are responding and I hope,beginning to trust me again.
I guess this is why I started this thread. It is more than science and chemistry although it is that at a basic level. It is a promise, a commitment, a decision and daily and hourly choices. Just the beginnng.4 -
So many strange (yet common???) concerns embedded in these threads. “Should I reduce my calories to lose more weight”? “Does tingling mean I’m losing weight”? “Does mindless snacking add weight”?
Of course I’m paraphrasing. I’m pretty sure there is intelligent life on the planet but some days we have to look hard. I’m one of the dumb dumbs. I made it to 103.4 yesterday and then had a bathtub amount of popcorn with butter and salt. Today , the scale skyrocketed to 105.6 . I have been desperately searching for info on saline intake and weight gain. With the amount of popcorn I poured into me yesterday, my body is probably requiring a swimming pool of H2O. Told you I’m dumb and dumber.
So ,I will live and learn and resume today. Feel a bit down and silly. Maybe I will learn from the experience.3 -
Ok...I trusted my body and the popcorn debacle "worked itself out"...or rather, my body did what it needed to do and I have actually lost more weight than I thought. So....the learnings "Grasshopper" is don't obsess when we take a deviation from the pulpit. We are human and need to make mistakes so we can learn about ourselves. I don't need to consume as much "naughty" food as I did a couple of days ago and my body does not deserve to be put on the spot to have to redeem me. It did a great job and I am thankful. But,,,,,,I must have put it in a bit of a pickle having to get rid of so much salt so I will try and be more mindful moving forward. Can't be all or nothing. Not a good idea.
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