Workout safety (stranger danger)

DSTMT

...but I really don't get the outright mocking of the idea that caution is a good idea

There is a question of proportionality. Situational awareness and reasonable avoidance isn't an issue. The suggestion that taking self defence classes and running tooled up is an appropriate response to a miniscule risk is disproportionate.

There have been a few observations on the use, and misuse, of statistics which demonstrate that there is a very real misunderstanding of the scale of the risk, particularly given the fairly outlandish scenario initially presented.

fwiw the main reason I don't leave my kit when I'm training at the park is down to the risk of theft.

your argument is not logical.

lots of people study calculus in high school and never use it again for the rest of their lives. but if they have to, they will still retain a passing familiarity with it.

why is that different than self-defense training?

even if you never have to use it, you're better off (and safer) knowing it. it's not an issue of "disproportionality" so much as an issue of being prepared if you ever find yourself in that situation.

i wouldn't take a gun out with me unless i felt i needed it for protection against dangerous animals. i have never seen a bear here in the wild in 10+ years here, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. they are. if i were to go hiking alone back into the Rockies, i would take one just in case. the fact that i have yet to see a bear thus far has no effect on the level of my future risk. they are unrelated issues.

do you even OP?

She was detailing a scenario where a serial killer drugged a bunch of water bottles, waited in the weeds for unsuspecting females to return, then raped and killed them after the drugs took effect. And then this mystical serial killer dragged the bodies into the woods and dumped them.

There are dangerous things that happen in the world but unless you live inside a James Patterson novel there are a million things to worry about before you get to this scenario.

Yes I think we can all agree that this is an extreme and unlikely example, but over the course of this thread I feel like there's been some over-the-top responses to the suggestion that ANY sort of caution is a good idea, or that women in particular are more vulnerable in specific situations where caution might be needed.

Like take the example of alistairrae not leaving his stuff somewhere because of the risk of theft. This is reasonable, and is a small and easy precaution to take. This doesn't mean he's suggesting that every person he encounters is a thief lying in wait, but if I were to follow the example of some of the responders on this thread, I would go "OHH yes don't take your valuables out of the house! Leave your belongings at home! There's thieves eeeeverrryyyywhereee! Be afraid!" Do you see what I mean? It's just as ridiculous to walk around thinking you're invincible as to take a gun everywhere you go for fear of attack.

And NO, I'm NOT suggesting that theft and murder are the same thing, or that they happen with the same frequency, I'm just saying there's no need to make fun of people for expressing that they worry about bad stuff happening, in a world where bad stuff does in fact happen sometimes.

LiftAllThePizzas

Don't ever touch anything. Someone might put poison on it. Door handles, your car, your house, escalator railings, elevator buttons. Someone might break into your house and rig your toilet to explode when you flush it, so never flush.

cwolfman13

but I really don't get the outright mocking of the idea that caution is a good idea.

I think it's actually been said numerous times in this thread...nobody is mocking the idea of using caution and being aware of your surroundings. The OP presented some outlandish scenario that really only happens on t.v., in the movies, and works of fiction...thus the "paranoia" responses.

cwolfman13

Don't ever touch anything. Someone might put poison on it. Door handles, your car, your house, escalator railings, elevator buttons. Someone might break into your house and rig your toilet to explode when you flush it, so never flush.

Oh ****......

TheSlorax

I'm implying that when given a choice, an assailant will generally pick a more appealing target over a lesser one. Which is why 80% of rape victims are women under 30. I don't have stats specifically on joggers in pink, tight-fitting shorts vs. camo sweatpants.. but like the saying goes, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

I don't think you really understand how sexual assailants target their victims. again, rape (as is being described in this thread) is largely a crime of opportunity. if the perpetrator has an opportunity he will take it, regardless of whether the victim is wearing sweatpants or yoga pants.

Opportunity no doubt plays a part, but arousal initiates the drive. Which is why elderly women are a lower risk demographic for rape, even though they're an easier opportunity -- the appeal is less.

A woman running in camo tactical pants is probably perceived as a harder opportunity than one in tight shorts, because not only does she look harder to control, you can't tell if she's packing a weapon like you can with tight shorts. So ugly, masculine clothes can act as a deterrant. Bonus points for wearing a grey wig. :bigsmile:

actually, rape in elderlies is more common than you would think. your statistics from which you are basing your ludicrous opinions off of only include reported assaults.

as for the rest of your response... I stand by my assessment that you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to victimology.

sjohnny

Don't ever touch anything. Someone might put poison on it. Door handles, your car, your house, escalator railings, elevator buttons. Someone might break into your house and rig your toilet to explode when you flush it, so never flush.

FACT: It happened to Danny Glover.

/thread

k8blujay2

Actually, I love Criminal Minds but my wife can't watch it...she does get ultra paranoid about everything when she watches that show.

I used to.. then I watched too many absurd story lines.

DavPul

Don't ever touch anything. Someone might put poison on it. Door handles, your car, your house, escalator railings, elevator buttons. Someone might break into your house and rig your toilet to explode when you flush it, so never flush.

DavPul

Don't ever touch anything. Someone might put poison on it. Door handles, your car, your house, escalator railings, elevator buttons. Someone might break into your house and rig your toilet to explode when you flush it, so never flush.

FACT: It happened to Danny Glover.

/thread

i'm gettin too old for this shurlit

whierd

This thread is making me tired.

And kind of hungry.

Oh_Allie

I'm not scared/paranoid to walk/run alone at any time of day if I'm just on a city street/sidewalk/whatever, but I do make sure that I'm a little more aware when I'm on a trail here. There have been a few instances of rape/murder that happened there over the last 5 or so years, so nothing compared to what's happening in huge cities, but something that makes you aware, you know?

I just take basic safety precautions. I check out my surroundings every so often, keep one ear bud out (mostly this just helps me get out of the way of people on bikes or rollerblades), let my boyfriend know where I'm going (which obviously isn't possible for everyone, but it's nice to know that if something ever did happen, they'd know where to start looking, haha), carry a cell phone (and this is less to call for help because of an attack and more in case of an injury or something).

Truthfully, I'm still fat so I really don't think I have anything to worry about, but even when I was thin, my main concern was wondering if my purse would still be locked in the trunk when I got back to my car.

CollieFit

I can't speak for cyclists in the US but in the UK you can't afford not to pay attention or you're dead. Driver's hatred for cyclists is quite something here.

Indeed, when I was cycle commuting I was hit by cars about 5 times a year. One left me sprawled across the road, with the following vehicles working around me to avoid their journey being disrupted

Brompton wasn't damaged, fortunately.

Jikes!!!! Awful that no one even stopped to help but sadly not surprised. I've had my fair share of "close shaves" but thankfully never been completely taken off. Had a few eegits open doors just as you're passing, so you develop that gut feeling for anyone sitting in a parked car wishing to get out without looking at precisely the moment when you're passing. Had a few purposely passing VERY close, so close you can feel the car's heat on your leg. Also had a group of chavs force me into the curb (clipped in!) while the passenger was leaning out of the moving vehicle in an attempt to grope me. Reported number plate to police but nobody wanted to know!! :grumble:

mumblemagic

For ANY woman who runs alone in I would strongly suggest taking a carry course and buying a little .380. They come in 9 oz lightweight versions like my ruger lcp.

Concealed weapons are not legal everywhere. And where the hell do you keep it?

Agreed, also not legal or IMO necessary in the UK. Not sure about the US though as in general the crime stats are higher there, although obviously it depends where you are....

Totally agree about the workout route thing. And I saw sooooo many people out the other night without hi viz on, running (on the pavement in fairness) along one of the busiest roads in the city!

CollieFit

YES, BE VERY VERY AFRAID OF EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY! EVERY PERSON IN THE WORLD IS OUT TO RAPE, ROB AND MURDER YOU. PANIC, PANIC RIGHT NOW!!! THEY ARE PROBABLY USING YOUR POSTS TO TRACK YOUR IP ADDRESS AND ABDUCT YOU FROM YOUR HOME IN THE NEXT 5 MINUTES? WHY AREN'T YOU IN HIDING? TAKING REASONABLE PRECAUTIONS ISN'T ENOUGH IN THIS CRAZY WORLD WE LIVE IN. YOU BETTER BE PARANOID ALL THE TIME OR YOU GONNA DIE. EVEN THE CATERPILLARS ARE TRYING TO KILL YOUR CHILDREN!

On average, one in six women will be sexually assaulted in their life time. And we're taught that if we do, it's our fault for not being vigilant enough. It's not a ****ing joke.

care to break out what percentage of the 1 in 6 stat is from women assaulted by complete strangers while running in the park?

on second thought, that's too specific. can we just take out the domestic cases, the date rape cases, and the cases where the assailant was a friend or family member? what does the number become if we do that?

UK stats -

Around 90 per cent of victims of the most serious sexual offences of rape or sexual assault by penetration in the previous year knew the perpetrator, compared with less than half for other sexual offences.

source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/an-overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales

Absolutely. Women are also more likely to be killed by a husband, partner or ex partner and children are most likely abused by a family member rather than a complete stranger...... but nobody wants to wrap their heads around these facts. It's just so much easier to cope with the thought of "stranger danger".

mumblemagic

I'm implying that when given a choice, an assailant will generally pick a more appealing target over a lesser one. Which is why 80% of rape victims are women under 30. I don't have stats specifically on joggers in pink, tight-fitting shorts vs. camo sweatpants.. but like the saying goes, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

I don't think you really understand how sexual assailants target their victims. again, rape (as is being described in this thread) is largely a crime of opportunity. if the perpetrator has an opportunity he will take it, regardless of whether the victim is wearing sweatpants or yoga pants.

Opportunity no doubt plays a part, but arousal initiates the drive. Which is why elderly women are a lower risk demographic for rape, even though they're an easier opportunity -- the appeal is less.

A woman running in camo tactical pants is probably perceived as a harder opportunity than one in tight shorts, because not only does she look harder to control, you can't tell if she's packing a weapon like you can with tight shorts. So ugly, masculine clothes can act as a deterrant. Bonus points for wearing a grey wig. :bigsmile:

actually, rape in elderlies is more common than you would think. your statistics from which you are basing your ludicrous opinions off of only include reported assaults.

as for the rest of your response... I stand by my assessment that you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to victimology.

I don't know much about the full statistics of rape, but have heard that stranger rape is actually quite rare, and that the majority of rapes are committed by someone you know, e.g. date rape. Still, it is always good to be safe, avoid dodgy areas, know your local crime statistics. For example, although my city has a high burglary rate (for the UK), the violent crime stats e.g. rape and muggings are actually very low, even though there was a spate of violent muggings a couple of years ago.

Depressing discussion much!

MeanderingMammal

how many people have ever been involved in head-on accidents?

Not a head on, but I was unconscious for a week and have a number of facial scars as a result.

Weeks when I'm driving a lot of miles I generally see a couple of seriously damaged cars a day. While that's anecdotal it supports the idea that there are enough road accidents for airbags to be a proportionate response. They bring their own issues and I know it's been suggested for motorcycles, although in that situation it would be wholly disproportionate and the consequences would be worse than the do nothing option.

i wouldn't mock that. now going for a run in full body armor while toting a rocket launcher?

The problem with running in body armour is that it plays hell with the knee and ankle joints, it's also quite difficult to get a decent breath of air.

CollieFit

I'm implying that when given a choice, an assailant will generally pick a more appealing target over a lesser one. Which is why 80% of rape victims are women under 30. I don't have stats specifically on joggers in pink, tight-fitting shorts vs. camo sweatpants.. but like the saying goes, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

I don't think you really understand how sexual assailants target their victims. again, rape (as is being described in this thread) is largely a crime of opportunity. if the perpetrator has an opportunity he will take it, regardless of whether the victim is wearing sweatpants or yoga pants.

Opportunity no doubt plays a part, but arousal initiates the drive. Which is why elderly women are a lower risk demographic for rape, even though they're an easier opportunity -- the appeal is less.

A woman running in camo tactical pants is probably perceived as a harder opportunity than one in tight shorts, because not only does she look harder to control, you can't tell if she's packing a weapon like you can with tight shorts. So ugly, masculine clothes can act as a deterrant. Bonus points for wearing a grey wig. :bigsmile:

actually, rape in elderlies is more common than you would think. your statistics from which you are basing your ludicrous opinions off of only include reported assaults.

as for the rest of your response... I stand by my assessment that you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to victimology.

Erm... okay I'll try to follow your train of thought here...

Firstly, I know a little bit about victimology. I'm a postgraduate psychologist with specialism in abnormal psychology and significant work experience in inpatient forensic environments, both mental health units as well as custodial settings. I spent a good ten years working for the UK probation service as a specialist with mentally disordered offenders.

I agree to the point that all rapes are under-reported, meaning that the official statistics are only the tip of the iceberg rather than the full story. I think most people would appreciate that simple fact. Of all reported rape cases there will also be social groups who are EVEN less likely to report an assault or rape, and one could agree that due to shame etc the elderly would fall into that category (as would men or certain groups of ethnic minorities).

However, fact remains that most perpetrators are known to the victim, not strangers.

The media makes a huge story out of it whenever you have an elderly lady being attacked in her own home etc, such as this case which got a lot of attention by the press in the UK... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2402971/Rape-victim-93-speaks-17-year-old-boy-charged-assault-elderly-womans-home.html
However that does not mean that these cases are in any way "frequent" by any stretch of the imagination... well certainly not in the UK, I can't speak for US statistics.

From my frequent involvement in adult safeguarding work, POVA investigations (Protection of Vulnerable Adults) into Elder Abuse, in the vast majority of cases the perpetrator of the abuse (be it physical, psychological or financial) is a family member or care home staff, not a stranger. This is also supported by statistics, and these statistics are gleaned not only from reported cases but also taking into consideration information from anonymous calls to elder abuse phone lines etc.
http://www.elderabuse.org.uk/Mainpages/Services/services_dloads.html#Prevalence

I would be very interested to hear about your knowledge or professional experience of vicimology that made you come to the conclusions that you came to.

Lisah8969

Treadmill is not looking so bad now is it?

But, if you are attacked on a treadmill, your physical fitness will not help you flee from your assailant.

Someone tried to rob me once on the treadmill, I turned it up to 10...and he just waited...

THANKS! This one made me literally laugh out loud and snort! People at work at looking at me, but I don't care!

And also sad, but true about poor Danny Glover. Although I don't think it was the flushing that would have set off the bomb. Wasn't it just getting off the toilet?

Anyway, I moved into a new neighborhood three years ago and since then have done at least my long run every Saturday there. Every time, I leave my water bottle covered by my towel on the bench near the parking lot. That bench would be in view for the entire trail that I run (well I would have to run part of it backwards, but you get my meaning). I see the same people at the park every week and the same ones on the street next to the park. I say good morning and wave and smile to all of them. It doesn't mean that they might not be serial killers, but if they were planning on kidnapping and torturing me, they sure have waited a long time to do it. Oddly enough this past Saturday was the first time that I noticed my water bottle had been moved on the bench. As I was coming around on my last lap, I saw that it was on a different part of the bench and on top of my towel. It was windy that morning and the most likely scenario was that the wind blew it off and someone picked it up and put it back on the bench for me (since all the other regulars at that time know it is mine). In my mind, I think it more possible that someone would pick up my water and take a drink than someone would drug it. Since it was the end of my run for the day, I decided not to risk getting cooties from the possibility of someone else having drunk from it and just went home. If I still had 5 miles left for the day, I probably would have drunk from it. Stupid? Possibly.

DavPul

I'm implying that when given a choice, an assailant will generally pick a more appealing target over a lesser one. Which is why 80% of rape victims are women under 30. I don't have stats specifically on joggers in pink, tight-fitting shorts vs. camo sweatpants.. but like the saying goes, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

I don't think you really understand how sexual assailants target their victims. again, rape (as is being described in this thread) is largely a crime of opportunity. if the perpetrator has an opportunity he will take it, regardless of whether the victim is wearing sweatpants or yoga pants.

Opportunity no doubt plays a part, but arousal initiates the drive. Which is why elderly women are a lower risk demographic for rape, even though they're an easier opportunity -- the appeal is less.

A woman running in camo tactical pants is probably perceived as a harder opportunity than one in tight shorts, because not only does she look harder to control, you can't tell if she's packing a weapon like you can with tight shorts. So ugly, masculine clothes can act as a deterrant. Bonus points for wearing a grey wig. :bigsmile:

actually, rape in elderlies is more common than you would think. your statistics from which you are basing your ludicrous opinions off of only include reported assaults.

as for the rest of your response... I stand by my assessment that you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to victimology.

Erm... okay I'll try to follow your train of thought here...

Firstly, I know a little bit about victimology. I'm a postgraduate psychologist with specialism in abnormal psychology and significant work experience in inpatient forensic environments, both mental health units as well as custodial settings. I spent a good ten years working for the UK probation service as a specialist with mentally disordered offenders.

I agree to the point that all rapes are under-reported, meaning that the official statistics are only the tip of the iceberg rather than the full story. I think most people would appreciate that simple fact. Of all reported rape cases there will also be social groups who are EVEN less likely to report an assault or rape, and one could agree that due to shame etc the elderly would fall into that category (as would men or certain groups of ethnic minorities).

However, fact remains that most perpetrators are known to the victim, not strangers.

The media makes a huge story out of it whenever you have an elderly lady being attacked in her own home etc, such as this case which got a lot of attention by the press in the UK... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2402971/Rape-victim-93-speaks-17-year-old-boy-charged-assault-elderly-womans-home.html
However that does not mean that these cases are in any way "frequent" by any stretch of the imagination... well certainly not in the UK, I can't speak for US statistics.

From my frequent involvement in adult safeguarding work, POVA investigations (Protection of Vulnerable Adults) into Elder Abuse, in the vast majority of cases the perpetrator of the abuse (be it physical, psychological or financial) is a family member or care home staff, not a stranger. This is also supported by statistics, and these statistics are gleaned not only from reported cases but also taking into consideration information from anonymous calls to elder abuse phone lines etc.
http://www.elderabuse.org.uk/Mainpages/Services/services_dloads.html#Prevalence

I would be very interested to hear about your knowledge or professional experience of vicimology that made you come to the conclusions that you came to.

I'm relatively sure you're arguing the same side as the person you quoted

yamsteroo

It's pretty quiet where I live - not a lot happens. Well, the woman across the street was having an affair so her husband took a chainsaw and leveled their garden in the middle of the night when he found out but that's about it.

Unless you count the mental hospital where they keep the likes of the Yorkshire Ripper which is just up the road. They do a check of the escape alarm every Monday at 10am. In theory if you hear the alarm you go indoors and lock yourself in. i often wonder what happens if some psycho nutter escapes at 10am on a Monday but again .... nothing really to worry about.

I guess what I mean is there are risks everywhere - deranged neighbours with chainsaws, serial murderers living just up the road and bad people looking out for runners but we just have to balance the risks as best we can. I perceive (rightly or wrongly) the risk to me to be low but I minimise the risk as best I can while still allowing myself to enjoy life.

Of course one day I could be running through the woods and find myself flanked by a man with a chainsaw and a guy wearing a manic grin while in the distance I can hear an alarm going off but while the chance remains low, it won't impact on how I conduct my life.

Just be sensible to minimise the risk; don't advertise where you go to complete strangers on the interweb, if you live in a dodgy area, don't go out running when there's no one else about (apart from the muggers, I mean) and above all else, don't wear a bra that doubles as a holster - jesus wept, I've enough trouble with my HRM rubbing!