Calories in calories out

ninerbuff

Unless there's a hormonal issue or disease, for the GENERAL population the laws of thermodynamics apply. If your friend is overweight and can't lose (barring the above mentioned) they're eating more than they need to. Sorry, but science works here.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

brower47

I have yet to see a documented example of it not working when variables are tightly controlled. I'm genuinely interested in cases if anyone has them.

Since the variables are not often tightly controlled when it comes to different people it doesn't really matter if it works on the specific controlled group.

Ok I'm calling it.

I second this.

I really, really hope this is the case or it's humanity -1 for the cosmic scoreboard today.

brower47

How does this work when we have all known a 300 pound person who eats healthy and works an active job but still cant lose ? Like for example I have a friend who is an overweight nurse, she does zumba, eats salads and has a very active job (always on her feet) yet she is still large and has been since a child. Yet I have another friend whos a stay at home mom, 28 years old, eats nothing but fast food and is like 110 soaking wet. So if we accept the fact that there are super skinny girls who cant eat whatever they want and not gain a pound why cant the reverse be true? Why cant someone eat healthy, have a deficit and NOT lose? If a skinny girl can eat 4000 calories a day of fast food with out the calories in calories out applying why does it always 100% apply to overweight people? The bigger people I know that are 300 pounds dont eat ANYWHERE near 3000 plus calories a day like the internet says it takes for them to maintain that weight....

This is what is referred to as a straw man argument (Aunt Sally for those in the UK). If the basis of your argument is a fallacy to start with, how can any debate after be anything less than drivel.

We do not accept the fact that there are super skinny girls that can eat whatever they want unless whatever they want just happens to be always within their caloric limit for maintaining weight. The 300 lb man and overweight nurse are eating more calories than what needs to be eaten to maintain a healthy weight.

They are eating too much. Trying to prove otherwise (medical conditions excluded) is just creating an excuse of eating at a surplus. Those sorts of excuses only help people give up instead of trying to actually solve the problem of being overweight.

You dont have to accept what I have already seen and know as fact. That is not the point of this topic. This does happen, calories in calories out is not 100% a 300 pound person can easily not eat to much, NOT hide what they are eating and still not lose weight. Just like a girl can be 110 pounds and eat tons of crap and not gain. I have plenty of thin friends who dont work out, eat tons of crap and dont gain. Actually, my step sister drinks like 2200 calories plus of beer a day, sits on her computer playing slots and cards, never leaves her house and weighs 125 pounds at like 5'10. She cant even gain weight if she tried, so yes this does happen everyday all around us.

The real problem, is how when someone isn't seeing results people on these bored automatically tell them its all THEIR fault, they MUST being doing something wrong. They dont consider they could be doing everything right and that it just doesn't work for some people? Like it has been stated if your metabolism is damaged you might have to eat a lower deficit then suggested through these websites.

You're thinking of it backwards in my opinion. Rather than thinking that there are people who are in an energy deficit and not losing weight, I would think of it that they are not losing weight and therefore they are not in an energy deficit. Change in body mass (excluding fluids) indicates overall state of energy balance.

Additionally, for perspective sake, I use a food scale and I measure and track things to the best of my ability. Even with these habits in play, there's a fair amount of error in estimation of both energy intake and energy output. The fact that you are claiming to know what someone else consumes for energy intake, unless you're weighing and measuring their food (which you aren't), and logging what they eat (which you aren't) then you're really not determining what their intake is.

Additionally, I think there's merit in the idea that people have varying levels of non exercise activity thermogenesis. You're not strapping an HRM to the "friends you observe" or trying to tightly monitor their energy output, so you can't make much of any conclusions about that either.

In short, while your observations about people being generally junk food eaters or generally "lazy" might be valid, they don't say ANYTHING about a thermodynamic model because you're not doing ANYTHING to account for those variables. You are watching and formulating an opinion that the calorie model must not work because of what you are seeing.

Yet to my knowledge, every time we stick someone in a metabolic ward and tightly control the variables, energy deficits cause a decrease in body mass. Because science.

Unless you go to a doctor anyways to get your real levels checked none of these tdee, bmr crap on these sites is even 100% correct

Even if you DO go to a doctor there are still all kinds of sources of error. They are all estimations. But this doesn't invalidate the thermodynamic model. It makes it more complicated and less linear, but it doesn't make it invalid.

Its not invalid it just doesn't work 100% for everyone

I have yet to see a documented example of it not working when variables are tightly controlled. I'm genuinely interested in cases if anyone has them.

Since the variables are not often tightly controlled when it comes to different people it doesn't really matter if it works on the specific controlled group.

It would matter if you could find examples in a tightly controlled setting where it doesn't work because it would validate your claims.

Well a controlled setting with healthy people isn't reality. You can find anything on the internet saying anything is good. Articles are constantly contradicting each other, so where are your studies?

You made the original claim so where are your studies.

YesIAm17

I do not think the OP is stupid, or doesn't really believe in science.

I think the OP has a subconscious emotional (technically irrational) reason to not want to believe that calories in/out really is rock solid science. There could be a number of issues at the root of this but I do not have the time or desire to dive that deeply into their psyche.

Once a decision/conclusion is made based on an emotional reason (especially if done subconsciously) it can be extremely difficult to change it in some cases, even in the face of a logically/scientifically irrefutable mountain of evidence to the contrary.

Its not science. There are tons of variables, everyone is different and its not 100% accurate.

MyChocolateDiet

That is the world. I know plenty of skinny girls who eat tons of crap and stay 120 pounds. Is that a hard concept to grasp that, that is indeed possible. lol

They eat "crap" but they don't eat tons of it. I have lost 123lb in 15 months, eating ice cream everyday, chips, chocolate bars, etc. Look at my diary, it's open. I eat all that "crap" at work and in front of friends and family and some of them are quite puzzled as to why I'm losing weight. I'm eating ar a deficit and those skinny girls, they are at maintenance, Simple.

Great you eat tons of junk food instead of real natural whole foods, you lost weight still being able to eat pure junk while you sit around at work? Yeah forget learning good healthy eating habits.

I think we are getting to the emotional psychoanalysis part right here. There is an exaggeration Level 5 going on in inferring TONS of junk food from the previous posters list of things she was able to enjoy (possibly in moderation while losing her 15 lbs). This is causing anger to a person who beleives in "whole" foods and is puzzled as to why that simple rule alone is not resulting in weight loss. To clarify "whole foods" diets does not mean you are allowed to eat "whole turkeys" or "whole veggie pizzas", or "whole watermelons" no matter how healthy those ingredients may be.

Rawfoodsho

I do not think the OP is stupid, or doesn't really believe in science.

I think the OP has a subconscious emotional (technically irrational) reason to not want to believe that calories in/out really is rock solid science. There could be a number of issues at the root of this but I do not have the time or desire to dive that deeply into their psyche.

Once a decision/conclusion is made based on an emotional reason (especially if done subconsciously) it can be extremely difficult to change it in some cases, even in the face of a logically/scientifically irrefutable mountain of evidence to the contrary.

Its not science. There are tons of variables, everyone is different and its not 100% accurate.

This is a genuine question, OP (100% and not sarcastic). Why did you post this? This is a mainly calorie counting website and thus it is understood (or should be) that paying attention to calories in, calories out is how many of the people here choose to lose weight. It has worked for many of these people, in fact. People here are not going to support a scientifically unsubstantiated claim, so I'm curious as to why you brought this up here.

Here lets make it easy for you guys


http://www.thegreatfitnessexperiment.com/2011/07/harvard-says-calories-incalories-out-model-is-flawed-so-what-do-we-use-instead.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/19/health/19brody.html?_r=0

http://authoritynutrition.com/debunking-the-calorie-myth/

http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/the-calories-incalories-out-myth/

http://www.cbn.com/health/nutrition/drlen_countcalories.aspx

cwolfman13

I do not think the OP is stupid, or doesn't really believe in science.

I do...

silenceinspace

OP, I'd like an answer to my question or I'm going to continue assuming you are trolling. I quoted it below for you.

This is a genuine question, OP (100% and not sarcastic). Why did you post this? This is a mainly calorie counting website and thus it is understood (or should be) that paying attention to calories in, calories out is how many of the people here choose to lose weight. It has worked for many of these people, in fact. People here are not going to support a scientifically unsubstantiated claim, so I'm curious as to why you brought this up here.

Achrya

You people are such bullies, getting on the OP for not beliving in science and placing her belifes in anecdotes and things she/he's observed. We're all different and yet here for the same thing, support!

shscruggs82

ok, Im still confused...I did the calculation of BMR and it says I should eat 1,823, is that before I work out, so I burn approximately 400 calories a day (based on my stepper calculation and I do the 30 day shred video every day) so at the end of the day I shouldnt be lower than 1400 calories a day in order to be getting what I need?

Rawfoodsho

That is the world. I know plenty of skinny girls who eat tons of crap and stay 120 pounds. Is that a hard concept to grasp that, that is indeed possible. lol

They eat "crap" but they don't eat tons of it. I have lost 123lb in 15 months, eating ice cream everyday, chips, chocolate bars, etc. Look at my diary, it's open. I eat all that "crap" at work and in front of friends and family and some of them are quite puzzled as to why I'm losing weight. I'm eating ar a deficit and those skinny girls, they are at maintenance, Simple.

Great you eat tons of junk food instead of real natural whole foods, you lost weight still being able to eat pure junk while you sit around at work? Yeah forget learning good healthy eating habits.

I think we are getting to the emotional psychoanalysis part right here. There is an exaggeration Level 5 going on in inferring TONS of junk food from the previous posters list of things she was able to enjoy (possibly in moderation while losing her 15 lbs). This is causing anger to a person who beleives in "whole" foods and is puzzled as to why that simple rule alone is not resulting in weight loss. To clarify "whole foods" diets does not mean you are allowed to eat "whole turkeys" or "whole veggie pizzas", or "whole watermelons" no matter how healthy those ingredients may be.

I lose weight, this wasn't about me. I am not 300 pounds or 120 pounds.

SideSteel

How does this work when we have all known a 300 pound person who eats healthy and works an active job but still cant lose ? Like for example I have a friend who is an overweight nurse, she does zumba, eats salads and has a very active job (always on her feet) yet she is still large and has been since a child. Yet I have another friend whos a stay at home mom, 28 years old, eats nothing but fast food and is like 110 soaking wet. So if we accept the fact that there are super skinny girls who cant eat whatever they want and not gain a pound why cant the reverse be true? Why cant someone eat healthy, have a deficit and NOT lose? If a skinny girl can eat 4000 calories a day of fast food with out the calories in calories out applying why does it always 100% apply to overweight people? The bigger people I know that are 300 pounds dont eat ANYWHERE near 3000 plus calories a day like the internet says it takes for them to maintain that weight....

This is what is referred to as a straw man argument (Aunt Sally for those in the UK). If the basis of your argument is a fallacy to start with, how can any debate after be anything less than drivel.

We do not accept the fact that there are super skinny girls that can eat whatever they want unless whatever they want just happens to be always within their caloric limit for maintaining weight. The 300 lb man and overweight nurse are eating more calories than what needs to be eaten to maintain a healthy weight.

They are eating too much. Trying to prove otherwise (medical conditions excluded) is just creating an excuse of eating at a surplus. Those sorts of excuses only help people give up instead of trying to actually solve the problem of being overweight.

You dont have to accept what I have already seen and know as fact. That is not the point of this topic. This does happen, calories in calories out is not 100% a 300 pound person can easily not eat to much, NOT hide what they are eating and still not lose weight. Just like a girl can be 110 pounds and eat tons of crap and not gain. I have plenty of thin friends who dont work out, eat tons of crap and dont gain. Actually, my step sister drinks like 2200 calories plus of beer a day, sits on her computer playing slots and cards, never leaves her house and weighs 125 pounds at like 5'10. She cant even gain weight if she tried, so yes this does happen everyday all around us.

The real problem, is how when someone isn't seeing results people on these bored automatically tell them its all THEIR fault, they MUST being doing something wrong. They dont consider they could be doing everything right and that it just doesn't work for some people? Like it has been stated if your metabolism is damaged you might have to eat a lower deficit then suggested through these websites.

You're thinking of it backwards in my opinion. Rather than thinking that there are people who are in an energy deficit and not losing weight, I would think of it that they are not losing weight and therefore they are not in an energy deficit. Change in body mass (excluding fluids) indicates overall state of energy balance.

Additionally, for perspective sake, I use a food scale and I measure and track things to the best of my ability. Even with these habits in play, there's a fair amount of error in estimation of both energy intake and energy output. The fact that you are claiming to know what someone else consumes for energy intake, unless you're weighing and measuring their food (which you aren't), and logging what they eat (which you aren't) then you're really not determining what their intake is.

Additionally, I think there's merit in the idea that people have varying levels of non exercise activity thermogenesis. You're not strapping an HRM to the "friends you observe" or trying to tightly monitor their energy output, so you can't make much of any conclusions about that either.

In short, while your observations about people being generally junk food eaters or generally "lazy" might be valid, they don't say ANYTHING about a thermodynamic model because you're not doing ANYTHING to account for those variables. You are watching and formulating an opinion that the calorie model must not work because of what you are seeing.

Yet to my knowledge, every time we stick someone in a metabolic ward and tightly control the variables, energy deficits cause a decrease in body mass. Because science.

Unless you go to a doctor anyways to get your real levels checked none of these tdee, bmr crap on these sites is even 100% correct

Even if you DO go to a doctor there are still all kinds of sources of error. They are all estimations. But this doesn't invalidate the thermodynamic model. It makes it more complicated and less linear, but it doesn't make it invalid.

Its not invalid it just doesn't work 100% for everyone

I have yet to see a documented example of it not working when variables are tightly controlled. I'm genuinely interested in cases if anyone has them.

Since the variables are not often tightly controlled when it comes to different people it doesn't really matter if it works on the specific controlled group.

It would matter if you could find examples in a tightly controlled setting where it doesn't work because it would validate your claims.

Well a controlled setting with healthy people isn't reality.

If you can find an example of an obese person on an exceptionally low calorie diet who is not losing weight for extended periods of time this would lend credibility to your position and yet this wouldn't be a "healthy person" as you state above.

You can find anything on the internet saying anything is good.

People tend to default to this reply quite a bit. Can you find me an example of high doses of rat poison being beneficial for your kidneys? Can you find me an example of someone who can grow wings and fly while eating coconuts? I'm being ridiculous here to prove a point. You most certainly cannot find anything on the internet saying anything is good and you most CERTAINLY cannot find peer reviewed research (something we would consider credible at least insofar as it would be a good starting point to make some assertions about things) supporting anything you want.

Articles are constantly contradicting each other, so where are your studies?

It is not on me to find studies to deny your claim, it is on you to find studies to support yours. So far you have anecdote.

Rawfoodsho

http://www.gnolls.org/3374/

Achrya

That is the world. I know plenty of skinny girls who eat tons of crap and stay 120 pounds. Is that a hard concept to grasp that, that is indeed possible. lol

They eat "crap" but they don't eat tons of it. I have lost 123lb in 15 months, eating ice cream everyday, chips, chocolate bars, etc. Look at my diary, it's open. I eat all that "crap" at work and in front of friends and family and some of them are quite puzzled as to why I'm losing weight. I'm eating ar a deficit and those skinny girls, they are at maintenance, Simple.

Great you eat tons of junk food instead of real natural whole foods, you lost weight still being able to eat pure junk while you sit around at work? Yeah forget learning good healthy eating habits.

I think we are getting to the emotional psychoanalysis part right here. There is an exaggeration Level 5 going on in inferring TONS of junk food from the previous posters list of things she was able to enjoy (possibly in moderation while losing her 15 lbs). This is causing anger to a person who beleives in "whole" foods and is puzzled as to why that simple rule alone is not resulting in weight loss. To clarify "whole foods" diets does not mean you are allowed to eat "whole turkeys" or "whole veggie pizzas", or "whole watermelons" no matter how healthy those ingredients may be.

Wait, I can't eat a whole turkey and still expect to lose weight?

Damn it. There go my Thanksgiving plans.

How about whole pies?

mustgetmuscles1

Even trained dietitians that know they are going to be double checked understimate calorie intake.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12396160


The odds that the OP KNOWS how many calories a friend is eating is impossible.

brower47

I do not think the OP is stupid, or doesn't really believe in science.

I think the OP has a subconscious emotional (technically irrational) reason to not want to believe that calories in/out really is rock solid science. There could be a number of issues at the root of this but I do not have the time or desire to dive that deeply into their psyche.

Once a decision/conclusion is made based on an emotional reason (especially if done subconsciously) it can be extremely difficult to change it in some cases, even in the face of a logically/scientifically irrefutable mountain of evidence to the contrary.

Its not science. There are tons of variables, everyone is different and its not 100% accurate.

This is a genuine question, OP (100% and not sarcastic). Why did you post this? This is a mainly calorie counting website and thus it is understood (or should be) that paying attention to calories in, calories out is how many of the people here choose to lose weight. It has worked for many of these people, in fact. People here are not going to support a scientifically unsubstantiated claim, so I'm curious as to why you brought this up here.

Here lets make it easy for you guys


http://www.thegreatfitnessexperiment.com/2011/07/harvard-says-calories-incalories-out-model-is-flawed-so-what-do-we-use-instead.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/19/health/19brody.html?_r=0

http://authoritynutrition.com/debunking-the-calorie-myth/

http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/the-calories-incalories-out-myth/

http://www.cbn.com/health/nutrition/drlen_countcalories.aspx

Now let's try actual studies and not opinion/news stories.

Rawfoodsho

How does this work when we have all known a 300 pound person who eats healthy and works an active job but still cant lose ? Like for example I have a friend who is an overweight nurse, she does zumba, eats salads and has a very active job (always on her feet) yet she is still large and has been since a child. Yet I have another friend whos a stay at home mom, 28 years old, eats nothing but fast food and is like 110 soaking wet. So if we accept the fact that there are super skinny girls who cant eat whatever they want and not gain a pound why cant the reverse be true? Why cant someone eat healthy, have a deficit and NOT lose? If a skinny girl can eat 4000 calories a day of fast food with out the calories in calories out applying why does it always 100% apply to overweight people? The bigger people I know that are 300 pounds dont eat ANYWHERE near 3000 plus calories a day like the internet says it takes for them to maintain that weight....

This is what is referred to as a straw man argument (Aunt Sally for those in the UK). If the basis of your argument is a fallacy to start with, how can any debate after be anything less than drivel.

We do not accept the fact that there are super skinny girls that can eat whatever they want unless whatever they want just happens to be always within their caloric limit for maintaining weight. The 300 lb man and overweight nurse are eating more calories than what needs to be eaten to maintain a healthy weight.

They are eating too much. Trying to prove otherwise (medical conditions excluded) is just creating an excuse of eating at a surplus. Those sorts of excuses only help people give up instead of trying to actually solve the problem of being overweight.

You dont have to accept what I have already seen and know as fact. That is not the point of this topic. This does happen, calories in calories out is not 100% a 300 pound person can easily not eat to much, NOT hide what they are eating and still not lose weight. Just like a girl can be 110 pounds and eat tons of crap and not gain. I have plenty of thin friends who dont work out, eat tons of crap and dont gain. Actually, my step sister drinks like 2200 calories plus of beer a day, sits on her computer playing slots and cards, never leaves her house and weighs 125 pounds at like 5'10. She cant even gain weight if she tried, so yes this does happen everyday all around us.

The real problem, is how when someone isn't seeing results people on these bored automatically tell them its all THEIR fault, they MUST being doing something wrong. They dont consider they could be doing everything right and that it just doesn't work for some people? Like it has been stated if your metabolism is damaged you might have to eat a lower deficit then suggested through these websites.

You're thinking of it backwards in my opinion. Rather than thinking that there are people who are in an energy deficit and not losing weight, I would think of it that they are not losing weight and therefore they are not in an energy deficit. Change in body mass (excluding fluids) indicates overall state of energy balance.

Additionally, for perspective sake, I use a food scale and I measure and track things to the best of my ability. Even with these habits in play, there's a fair amount of error in estimation of both energy intake and energy output. The fact that you are claiming to know what someone else consumes for energy intake, unless you're weighing and measuring their food (which you aren't), and logging what they eat (which you aren't) then you're really not determining what their intake is.

Additionally, I think there's merit in the idea that people have varying levels of non exercise activity thermogenesis. You're not strapping an HRM to the "friends you observe" or trying to tightly monitor their energy output, so you can't make much of any conclusions about that either.

In short, while your observations about people being generally junk food eaters or generally "lazy" might be valid, they don't say ANYTHING about a thermodynamic model because you're not doing ANYTHING to account for those variables. You are watching and formulating an opinion that the calorie model must not work because of what you are seeing.

Yet to my knowledge, every time we stick someone in a metabolic ward and tightly control the variables, energy deficits cause a decrease in body mass. Because science.

Unless you go to a doctor anyways to get your real levels checked none of these tdee, bmr crap on these sites is even 100% correct

Even if you DO go to a doctor there are still all kinds of sources of error. They are all estimations. But this doesn't invalidate the thermodynamic model. It makes it more complicated and less linear, but it doesn't make it invalid.

Its not invalid it just doesn't work 100% for everyone

I have yet to see a documented example of it not working when variables are tightly controlled. I'm genuinely interested in cases if anyone has them.

Since the variables are not often tightly controlled when it comes to different people it doesn't really matter if it works on the specific controlled group.

It would matter if you could find examples in a tightly controlled setting where it doesn't work because it would validate your claims.

Well a controlled setting with healthy people isn't reality.

If you can find an example of an obese person on an exceptionally low calorie diet who is not losing weight for extended periods of time this would lend credibility to your position and yet this wouldn't be a "healthy person" as you state above.

You can find anything on the internet saying anything is good.

People tend to default to this reply quite a bit. Can you find me an example of high doses of rat poison being beneficial for your kidneys? Can you find me an example of someone who can grow wings and fly while eating coconuts? I'm being ridiculous here to prove a point. You most certainly cannot find anything on the internet saying anything is good and you most CERTAINLY cannot find peer reviewed research (something we would consider credible at least insofar as it would be a good starting point to make some assertions about things) supporting anything you want.

Articles are constantly contradicting each other, so where are your studies?

It is not on me to find studies to deny your claim, it is on you to find studies to support yours. So far you have anecdote.

True because I gave real life accounts of the skinny or big people I know and have spent extensive time with who this doesn't work for.

http://www.gnolls.org/3374/

silenceinspace

You people are such bullies, getting on the OP for not beliving in science and placing her belifes in anecdotes and things she/he's observed. We're all different and yet here for the same thing, support!

This topic comes up a lot (I haven't even been active in the forums for a long time, and I see at least three threads on this a day). I am really fat (just bein' honest) and I think it is ignorant to say that these parts of science are not true. Science is all we have to go on. She has substantiated her claims with studies that were not peer-reviewed and not considered scientifically valid. She can believe whatever she wants, but I think people around here (myself included) get annoyed at seeing these threads so often, especially since they always unfold in the same way.

SideSteel

ok, Im still confused...I did the calculation of BMR and it says I should eat 1,823, is that before I work out, so I burn approximately 400 calories a day (based on my stepper calculation and I do the 30 day shred video every day) so at the end of the day I shouldnt be lower than 1400 calories a day in order to be getting what I need?

I would instead ask you this: What have you been eating on average (average out your daily intake over the past 2-4 weeks) and what has your weight done in that time? These answers will be more valuable than a calculator. However, if you have never tracked intake before and you are looking for a starting point, feel free to PM me your stats and I'll help you get started.

The issue here is when people who ALREADY HAVE tracking/logging data then go to a calculator and they end up significantly changing their intake based on what the calculator says when the results should be pointing you in the proper direction instead.

brower47

That is the world. I know plenty of skinny girls who eat tons of crap and stay 120 pounds. Is that a hard concept to grasp that, that is indeed possible. lol

They eat "crap" but they don't eat tons of it. I have lost 123lb in 15 months, eating ice cream everyday, chips, chocolate bars, etc. Look at my diary, it's open. I eat all that "crap" at work and in front of friends and family and some of them are quite puzzled as to why I'm losing weight. I'm eating ar a deficit and those skinny girls, they are at maintenance, Simple.

Great you eat tons of junk food instead of real natural whole foods, you lost weight still being able to eat pure junk while you sit around at work? Yeah forget learning good healthy eating habits.

I think we are getting to the emotional psychoanalysis part right here. There is an exaggeration Level 5 going on in inferring TONS of junk food from the previous posters list of things she was able to enjoy (possibly in moderation while losing her 15 lbs). This is causing anger to a person who beleives in "whole" foods and is puzzled as to why that simple rule alone is not resulting in weight loss. To clarify "whole foods" diets does not mean you are allowed to eat "whole turkeys" or "whole veggie pizzas", or "whole watermelons" no matter how healthy those ingredients may be.

Wait, I can't eat a whole turkey and still expect to lose weight?

Damn it. There go my Thanksgiving plans.

How about whole pies?

Well, you can since a whole turkey will probably induce vomiting. Weight loss 101 right there.