Relatively light people trying to get leaner

stroutman81

Glad you guys are finding this thread useful. I've been emailed over 50 times about the information in this thread, which makes me happy. I wonder if this could be made a sticky?

amysj303

I don't know about stickies? how does that work?

chrisdavey

gets stuck at the top like a FAQ

k8ieP

I have read this and really enjoyed it. Thanks so much!

pamp1emousse

bump! definitely coming back to this tomorrow. thank you!!

stroutman81

You're welcome everyone. Thanks for taking the time to read through the thread.

PlatinumPiggy

bump

hadl0032

bump

efahey

amazing! i relate to A LOT of what is being said here and it may be time for me to re-think and adjust my current workout routine!

stroutman81

I've been pretty busy, but wanted to thank you guys for keeping this thread alive. There's a lot of great discussion in this thread.

pamp1emousse

Great thread btw! V. useful
I was wondering, I asked one of the coaches at my gym whether I needed to strength train on my legs seeing as I run (sometimes uphill), spin and work on the elliptical, and whether it would make my legs bulkier. She answered that if I'm serious about toning I should, and stretching would help "shape my muscles into the long and lean look"

What do you think? Is this accurate? The coaches are lovely but I'm not 100% about how good their advice is...

stroutman81

Great thread btw! V. useful
I was wondering, I asked one of the coaches at my gym

Quite frankly, I would refrain from asking that trainer anything ever again. The training industry is plagued with misinformed "professionals" who don't know much about the human body, believe it or not. This is evidenced, in part, by what I'll say below...

whether I needed to strength train on my legs seeing as I run (sometimes uphill), spin and work on the elliptical,

The answer to the question you were asking her will always be, "it depends." It depends primarily on your goals, your current position in terms of physique, etc. However, by and large, most people should be doing strength training and focusing on their entire body when doing so.

Here's the deal... there's a certain threshold of intensity that must be exceeded if the sort of adaptations associated with strength training are going to take place. Most notably these adaptations include increased muscle, increased strength, increased bone density, increased connective tissue density and strength, etc. This threshold is individual and regardless, the longer you train, the higher the threshold becomes - to a certain point.

So think of it like this...

For fat and out of shape people, the simple act of walking can be enough of a muscular stimulus to increase leg muscle strength and size. Their threshold is low. Therefore walking elicits the same sort of adaptations that are typically associated with resistance training.

On the flip side, take someone who's been taking a balanced approach to exercise over a year or more. Part of the approach included progressive resistance training. For her, walking isn't going to provide enough of a stimulus to trigger increased strength/muscle.

Part of this has to do with overload. We must overload your muscles if they're to positively adapt. Which is why you can sit there lifting your pink dumbbells until you're blue in the face, but if that's all you do, you're never going to make significant changes to your physique or strength levels. (obviously I'm saying "you" in general... not you specifically)

Slightly overload your body and, biologically, it gets "uncomfortable." In an attempt to maintain homeostasis, it'll change itself to better accommodate this overloading stimulus next time - therefore - when next time becomes this time, it's no longer an overload. Which is why resistance training must PROGRESSIVELY OVERLOAD the body over time.

Of course, to speak specifically to your situation, you can place too much volume on the legs with inordinate amounts of cardio (especially high intensity stuff) paired with resistance training. But if this were the case, I'd be asking why one is doing so much high intensity "cardio" to begin with.

and whether it would make my legs bulkier.

Very generally speaking, women don't get bulky.

And even if they did, humans don't add mass amounts of muscle without the assistance of drugs.

And aside from drugs, humans aren't going to add much muscle, if any at all, while dieting. Muscle growth is a very intensive process, energetically speaking. By definition, when you're dieting, you don't have enough energy (calories) coming in the door to maintain the tissues your currently have. Your body isn't going to make matters worse by adding a bunch of metabolically expensive tissue to the mix.

Granted, some muscle gain while dieting can occur for folks who a) are fat, b) are un or detrained, or c) have the genetic proclivities to increase muscle mass easily. But even if *some* muscle growth occurs, it's not going to be substantial or prolonged in the face of an energy shortage.

And here's another kicker...

In my experience, most women who are relatively lean and trying to get leaner actually want a bit of an increase in their base of muscle. They generally don't realize it. But if they're going to obtain the look most are going for, it's going to be required.

She answered that if I'm serious about toning I should,

I'd agree with her on this part, assuming the other modes of exercise are balanced. Your body can only tolerate so much stress (physical and emotional) until it starts fighting back. So if you're not going to moderate other modes of exercise, adding strength training on top of them might outpace your body's ability to manage stress accordingly.

and stretching would help "shape my muscles into the long and lean look"

This is where this "coach" makes me ashamed to call myself a "fellow professional."

Our muscles attach to our skeleton, right?

Unless stretching increases the length of our bones, it sure as hell isn't going to increase the length of our muscles.

That "long and lean" look has mostly to do with your genetics and secondly to your level of muscle relative to your fat mass.

Read this article on my main site:

http://www.body-improvements.com/Articles/Training/IWantToLookLikeThatCoverModel.html

pamp1emousse

Such a helpful response, thank you!! I think I may reduce my cardio and up my strength soon. And I'm glad I wasn't completely mad for thinking the "lengthening your muscles" comment sounded pretty questionable

myofibril

And really... I can't say you're doing too much or too little. I only brought it up because more often than not, especially with women who are lean trying to get leaner, they tend to take the "beat my body into submission" route. They feel that depriving it of adequate nutrition and jacking up energy output, they're going to mold the body they're after.

Evolutionarily speaking, unfortunately, our bodies don't want to be lean. Especially female bodies. It opposes survival from long ago.

These same people come to me claiming they've been in a plateau for nearly a year, feel like crap, have nagging injuries, zero motivation, etc. Turns out that if they'd just sit down, stay out of the damn gym, and eat some food... things would be much better.

It turns out that we have a finite capacity to deal with stress. Stress comes in many forms - calorie deficits, exercise, work, family, etc. When we're dieting, this capacity is actually reduced, meaning our ability to handle stress diminishes. And this why the jackhammer approach mentioned above doesn't typically work.

This is why I always tell people that getting a "hot body" isn't the same as just going out and running yourself into the ground. You have to consider both diet *and* training needs, and adjust accordingly.

The kind of activity you do will depend on your goals, where you are at the moment, and your diet.

Heavy lifting's always going to be the core in my opinion. That's assuming you're interested in being lean.

It's nice to see some balanced, sensible advice on here. So many people seem to be seduced by the quick fix, all or nothing, never take a break, you have to run your body into the ground mentality. I guess it's understandable but I don't think it lays the foundation for long term success if being lean is what you are aiming for couple with a large order of health benefits on the side.

backinthenines

Hi Steve
And thanks so much for your sensible, factual, sound advice rather than the housewives tales, myths and fairy stories that so often do the rounds!!

When I started triathlon training I stupidly cut way back on my strength training cos there are only so many hours in the week and for endurance tri training all those hours are taken up by swimming, cycling and running... I trained for an Ironman and became fat! I trained at least 15 hours a week on top of a full time job. Ok, not "fat" fat, but out of shape, soft around the middle with little tone... and I did put on weight because eating back your training calories often means finding 4000 calories a day... Initially I thought it was just me but then I read Rachel Cosgrove's article "The final nail in the cardio coffin" and she had exactly the same experience as me... http://figureathlete.t-nation.com/free_online_article/training/the_final_nail_in_the_cardio_coffin basically she trained for an ironman and hugely prioritised cardio over strength training and the next thing you know is you look like a sponge!

I loosely follow the "New Rules of Lifting" for women (google if interested), cos I'm a big believer in heavy free weights -- and spot on, now that I'm lifting heavy again that tone and definition is coming right back. :happy:

DoralisM

WoW u seem to understand this way more than me! Can you help me set my goals? I'm 5'1" 134lbs and want to loose 16 lbs... well 17 after going to Red Lobster last night!!! :sad: :frown: I set my calories to 1310 but I am still hungry. Im working out 4 days a week for 35mins each day. Any suggestions?

elfward

My boyfriend has started me on a free weights programme for 25 mins 3 times a week - I also run 3 times a week. I'm seeing it as a start...

I've taken backinthenines advice and ordered the New Rules of Lifting for Women, and am looking forward to reading more!

stroutman81

Such a helpful response, thank you!! I think I may reduce my cardio and up my strength soon. And I'm glad I wasn't completely mad for thinking the "lengthening your muscles" comment sounded pretty questionable

It's crazy what some of these trainers believe. Unfortunately though, there aren't any significant barriers to entry in this profession. Even the best of certifications aren't very great. And most people opt for easier certifications. And that's not the problem. The problem is that's the extent, more often than not, of their education.

This is one of those fields where you should be learning every single day. You should have a baseline foundation of knowledge in the basic sciences dealing with the human body, you should know how to read and dissect research, and at the very least, you should understand the core tenets of objective and critical reasoning.

The VAST majority aren't even close though.

I bring this up only to get people thinking very critically when dealing with trainers. The only way the industry is ever going to improve is if the masses demand it.

stroutman81

It's nice to see some balanced, sensible advice on here. So many people seem to be seduced by the quick fix, all or nothing, never take a break, you have to run your body into the ground mentality. I guess it's understandable but I don't think it lays the foundation for long term success if being lean is what you are aiming for couple with a large order of health benefits on the side.

Unfortunately that mentality you speak of is extremely common. I'm of the belief that it stems from our "gotta have it now" mentality that plagues this culture paired with a common but grossly misinformed idea that exercise is only productive if it has you sweating, has your heart pounding, and your muscles burning.

The people who stray away from the heard generally realize their potentials within the confines of their genetics. The rest support a multi-billion dollar industry by purchasing the latest and greatest fads while floundering about in terms of progress.

Maybe a little to blunt, but from the mile high view, it's how I see things.

stroutman81

Hi Steve
And thanks so much for your sensible, factual, sound advice rather than the housewives tales, myths and fairy stories that so often do the rounds!!

When I started triathlon training I stupidly cut way back on my strength training cos there are only so many hours in the week and for endurance tri training all those hours are taken up by swimming, cycling and running... I trained for an Ironman and became fat! I trained at least 15 hours a week on top of a full time job. Ok, not "fat" fat, but out of shape, soft around the middle with little tone... and I did put on weight because eating back your training calories often means finding 4000 calories a day... Initially I thought it was just me but then I read Rachel Cosgrove's article "The final nail in the cardio coffin" and she had exactly the same experience as me... http://figureathlete.t-nation.com/free_online_article/training/the_final_nail_in_the_cardio_coffin basically she trained for an ironman and hugely prioritised cardio over strength training and the next thing you know is you look like a sponge!

I loosely follow the "New Rules of Lifting" for women (google if interested), cos I'm a big believer in heavy free weights -- and spot on, now that I'm lifting heavy again that tone and definition is coming right back. :happy:

I've read NROL for women as well as the first. Now I think they're coming out with one for core training if memory serves me correct. Frankly, I'm not a fan of the Cosgroves. Her husband, Alwyn, used to put out some great information. Unfortunately, they've transformed into "marketers first, trainers second," which happens to so many people who make a name for themselves in this field.

Plus, Alwyn ripped off (as in in plagiarized word for word) one of my friend's books and used it for one of his products. That's not okay in my book.

None of this really matters to your point though....

The programs in the NROL books are perfectly fine as far as I see it. And more importantly, I'm glad you figured out the hard way that some semblance of strength training is required if physique is going to be maintained.

I've worked with a few distance athletes. Some of them do distance racing as a hobby and they're generally looking for physique development as well, which is always the hardest client. Long distance training is in direct competition with building a lean physique. As we know, life's all about compromises, but generally these folks aren't okay with compromising physique for performance so it becomes a battle of sorts and ultimately, the bottom line is we can't have the best of both worlds so ultimately everything becomes diluted or watered down.

And that's not to say this approach is a bad thing. For many folks, the net result (decent racing progress and decent physique) is just perfect.

However, I've also dealt with the serious racer who isn't concerned so much about physique/leanness. Rather, they're out to increase performance first and foremost. Programming for these people is much simpler.

One target is always easier to hit than two. And when you're aiming for two targets that are in direct opposition of one another, well, it's not rocket science to figure out something has to give.

Rambling a bit... sorry!