My Pointless Soapbox
Replies
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As for what brought you to this revelation in the first place, I to some extent agree with the other group you were in. Until you've spent 7 hours on an airplane with a huge man beside you that overflows into your seat you really can't appreciate that someone of that size should have been made to pay for the 1.5 seats he was taking up. I can add that he also smelled bad. The fact that you've allowed yourself to get too big to fit into average sized transportation doesn't mean the rest of the world has to make allowances for you. I'll admit I'm one of those meanies.
I agree 100%... and it wasn't that long ago that I was close to needing to pay for 2 seats on an airplane. If a person is so large that they can not fit into a single "spot", then they should pay for the extra room. It isn't fair to the person next to them who is losing space that THEY paid for.0 -
This is my feeling on the subject. I don't post a lot, but I've been here more than 2 years and I've seen this scenario play out more times than I can count. A big thing that really annoys me is that people will post a topic with a half a$$ed, dangerous, scientifically debunked plan of losing 20lbs in 3 weeks or something and then say something like "supportive answers only! No negativity!" Or "I know it's not a good idea to eat 1000 calories of celery sticks and do 5 hours on the treadmill daily, but maybe it'll work for ME! What do you guys think?"
Support =/= hand holding, coddling, or enabling.
Support =/= a yes man who tell you what you want to hear regardless of whether it's true or not.
I never said that people who are doing unhealthy things should NOT be offered guidance, or that it is a bad thing to suggest another way.
Quite the opposite, you SHOULD tell people when they are choosing the bad path. Pulling someone out of the path of a speeding car (even if they, themselves, are the driver) is the MOST caring thing you can do for someone.
I just believe it is possible to do that without being intentionally cruel....and maybe they won't get out of the way of that speeding car, but while you may think they're stupid for standing in front of it, just keep in mind that it took a whole lot of pain to put them there in the first place. Adding to that isn't going to help.
A lot of the time the advice given is NOT intentionally cruel, it is just stated in a blunt, matter-of-fact manner that some people interpret as rude or demeaning.0 -
This is my feeling on the subject. I don't post a lot, but I've been here more than 2 years and I've seen this scenario play out more times than I can count. A big thing that really annoys me is that people will post a topic with a half a$$ed, dangerous, scientifically debunked plan of losing 20lbs in 3 weeks or something and then say something like "supportive answers only! No negativity!" Or "I know it's not a good idea to eat 1000 calories of celery sticks and do 5 hours on the treadmill daily, but maybe it'll work for ME! What do you guys think?"
Support =/= hand holding, coddling, or enabling.
Support =/= a yes man who tell you what you want to hear regardless of whether it's true or not.
I never said that people who are doing unhealthy things should NOT be offered guidance, or that it is a bad thing to suggest another way.
Quite the opposite, you SHOULD tell people when they are choosing the bad path. Pulling someone out of the path of a speeding car (even if they, themselves, are the driver) is the MOST caring thing you can do for someone.
I just believe it is possible to do that without being intentionally cruel....and maybe they won't get out of the way of that speeding car, but while you may think they're stupid for standing in front of it, just keep in mind that it took a whole lot of pain to put them there in the first place. Adding to that isn't going to help.
A lot of the time the advice given is NOT intentionally cruel, it is just stated in a blunt, matter-of-fact manner that some people interpret as rude or demeaning.
Agreed. The level of over sensitivity is shocking. As shown time and again by the, "don't disagree with me or it's rude", "don't say anything I don't want to hear or it's bullying", & the participation trophies for everyone crowd. I fear for society in general. We're almost to the point that a herd of my little ponies can run over us.0 -
As for what brought you to this revelation in the first place, I to some extent agree with the other group you were in. Until you've spent 7 hours on an airplane with a huge man beside you that overflows into your seat you really can't appreciate that someone of that size should have been made to pay for the 1.5 seats he was taking up. I can add that he also smelled bad. The fact that you've allowed yourself to get too big to fit into average sized transportation doesn't mean the rest of the world has to make allowances for you. I'll admit I'm one of those meanies.
I was not even bothered by the opinion that obese people should pay more for transportation. It is the persistent and often repeated belief that every fat person is a lazy, useless frack who can't be bothered to do anything for themselves other than shoving endless amounts of food in their fat mouths that gets to me. There is a fat-hate post on that site almost daily.
Do you know how many fat people I know who genuinely DON'T care? Let's just say very few. Most are trying, and failing, and trying, and failing, and sometimes succeeding and then failing again and needing to start over. Lord knows that's been me several times.
People don't do the Master Cleanse because they think it sounds like fun. They do it because they are DESPERATE for something that will help them change. You know it won't work. *I* know it won't work...but they cling to that hope because they need to believe that SOMETHING will work for them and they don't believe in themselves enough to take the steps to make a more lasting change.0 -
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A lot of the time the advice given is NOT intentionally cruel, it is just stated in a blunt, matter-of-fact manner that some people interpret as rude or demeaning.
And you know what? That's fine. However, I see words like stupid, idiotic, useless, etc thrown around here on a daily basis. Being blunt is not a bad thing. There is a difference between being blunt and being a jerk.0 -
As for what brought you to this revelation in the first place, I to some extent agree with the other group you were in. Until you've spent 7 hours on an airplane with a huge man beside you that overflows into your seat you really can't appreciate that someone of that size should have been made to pay for the 1.5 seats he was taking up. I can add that he also smelled bad. The fact that you've allowed yourself to get too big to fit into average sized transportation doesn't mean the rest of the world has to make allowances for you. I'll admit I'm one of those meanies.
I was not even bothered by the opinion that obese people should pay more for transportation. It is the persistent and often repeated belief that every fat person is a lazy, useless frack who can't be bothered to do anything for themselves other than shoving endless amounts of food in their fat mouths that gets to me. There is a fat-hate post on that site almost daily.
Do you know how many fat people I know who genuinely DON'T care? Let's just say very few. Most are trying, and failing, and trying, and failing, and sometimes succeeding and then failing again and needing to start over. Lord knows that's been me several times.
People don't do the Master Cleanse because they think it sounds like fun. They do it because they are DESPERATE for something that will help them change. You know it won't work. *I* know it won't work...but they cling to that hope because they need to believe that SOMETHING will work for them and they don't believe in themselves enough to take the steps to make a more lasting change.
Very few of them have tried the calorie counting method because they feel it is too restrictive or they set their target far too low, in an attempt to lose as much weight as fast as possible, and end up in a binge cycle. They aren't doing the Master Cleanse because they feel nothing else will, they are doing it so they don't need to put in the diligence.0 -
A lot of the time the advice given is NOT intentionally cruel, it is just stated in a blunt, matter-of-fact manner that some people interpret as rude or demeaning.
And you know what? That's fine. However, I see words like stupid, idiotic, useless, etc thrown around here on a daily basis. Being blunt is not a bad thing. There is a difference between being blunt and being a jerk.
Typically when I see or use one of those words, it is in response to something so obscenely ridiculous that there are few other words to describe it.0 -
Why do people put the TLDR at the bottom? It should be at the top.
Good point. I will do that next time.0 -
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As a side note: If you pay close enough attention, you will see that the people crying foul all the time are the ones that almost NEVER take the time out to help others or answer questions on here.0
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Why do people put the TLDR at the bottom? It should be at the top.Good lord, people. There's a TL;DR at the bottom.
Cuz then no one would read the actual post.0 -
I just want to say that even though I don't agree 100% with everything you're saying, I appreciate the intelligence you bring to your points and I really respect the compassionand respect you have for your fellow person, including those like myself who might be seen as debating with you
:flowerforyou:
Thanks! I had considered foot-stomping and whining, but I think my 5yo has the monopoly on that in this house.0 -
in for telling you to get off your pointless soapbox. it's pointless.0
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A person driven by all the hurt and self-loathing generated by how they are treated because they are fat to lose weight, signs up for a site in the hopes that they can finally obtain that ideal standard of fitness and beauty, and when try, they actually TRY to do something to change themselves, they can't catch a break. They still get caught up in the same vicious criticism that drove them to lose weight.
The mistaken assumption behind your post is that you think the world cares about your weight as a separate thing. We only care about your weight as it pertains to your health and fitness. Carrying too high a body fat percentage is unhealthy and likely to shorten your life. Losing weight too quickly is unhealthy and likely to shorten your life. We just want you to be healthy and stick around with us longer. This may include losing weight, but primarily it involves eating healthy foods in proper amounts and being more active. The weight loss ought to be a symptom of the change in behavior. NOT the primary focus. The primary focus should be that you feel better, that your doctor says good things about your cholesterol and insulin levels, that you can still run around with your kids/grand kids when you are in your 60s.
Forget weight loss. Start focusing on being healthier, lifting more,eating better, running faster, feeling firmer, etc...
We don't care what your scale says about you. We just love you and want you to be here with us and healthy for as long as possible!
Well thought out post !0 -
OP, I look forward to watching your future posts to see how you are able to provide the much-needed help that is phrased in a way that is acceptable to the masses.
After you've made, oh, say, 100 of these helpful posts, let's reconvene and you can share what you've learned from the experience.
:flowerforyou:
TL;DR - you've made 26 posts on this site since you joined 17 months ago, ~9 of which are in this thread. It's time to start being the change you are expecting from others.0 -
OP, I look forward to watching your future posts to see how you are able to provide the much-needed help that is phrased in a way that is acceptable to the masses.
After you've made, oh, say, 100 of these helpful posts, let's reconvene and you can share what you've learned from the experience.
:flowerforyou:
Pretty much, while I do get her point, it is useless until she has strode a mile in another's shoes.
Be part of the solution.0 -
...but even if you can't win, it doesn't mean it's not worth trying, right?
That's not true. There is no point in my son's lacrosse team trying. Because they can't win.
:noway:0 -
OP, I look forward to watching your future posts to see how you are able to provide the much-needed help that is phrased in a way that is acceptable to the masses.
After you've made, oh, say, 100 of these helpful posts, let's reconvene and you can share what you've learned from the experience.
:flowerforyou:
TL;DR - you've made 26 posts on this site since you joined 17 months ago, ~9 of which are in this thread. It's time to start being the change you are expecting from others.
I honestly know very little around the science of weight-loss compared to many posters. I'm learning. In my defense, despite my longevity on the site, until now I think my longest stretch of logging and using the site was about 15 days.
I am not a good example of what to do. When I am logging my calories I start to obsess about what I am eating, and my calories start dwindling until I am not eating enough, getting headaches constantly, and then going off the wagon when I can't do it anymore. I am pretty much the poster-child for what NOT to do. I am trying extremely extremely hard to break that pattern this time, but I struggle with it constantly. Where I am right now, in attempting to advise others I feel as though I am being a fat hypocrite instead of just fat.
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A lot of the time the advice given is NOT intentionally cruel, it is just stated in a blunt, matter-of-fact manner that some people interpret as rude or demeaning.
And you know what? That's fine. However, I see words like stupid, idiotic, useless, etc thrown around here on a daily basis. Being blunt is not a bad thing. There is a difference between being blunt and being a jerk.
I've seen this too, which is called flaming and which is also against MFP guidelines. That's what the report button is for.
I understand your stance and your frustration, but you can't change other people.
Also, some people use forums as a way to say things they would never say to a person's face. It's sad but true.0 -
OP, I look forward to watching your future posts to see how you are able to provide the much-needed help that is phrased in a way that is acceptable to the masses.
After you've made, oh, say, 100 of these helpful posts, let's reconvene and you can share what you've learned from the experience.
:flowerforyou:
TL;DR - you've made 26 posts on this site since you joined 17 months ago, ~9 of which are in this thread. It's time to start being the change you are expecting from others.
I honestly know very little around the science of weight-loss compared to many posters. I'm learning. In my defense, despite my longevity on the site, until now I think my longest stretch of logging and using the site was about 15 days.
I am not a good example of what to do. When I am logging my calories I start to obsess about what I am eating, and my calories start dwindling until I am not eating enough, getting headaches constantly, and then going off the wagon when I can't do it anymore. I am pretty much the poster-child for what NOT to do. I am trying extremely extremely hard to break that pattern this time, but I struggle with it constantly. Where I am right now, in attempting to advise others I feel as though I am being a fat hypocrite instead of just fat.
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You should consider making a new post about your efforts/approach/struggles. There are probably some people here who have some helpful ideas that might resonate (because many of them have been there and have found a way to the other side). Just don't get defensive in response to the advice and everything will almost certainly go smoothly. :drinker:0 -
Time out
What is TL;DR?0 -
To Long; Didn't ReadTime out
What is TL;DR?0 -
OP, I look forward to watching your future posts to see how you are able to provide the much-needed help that is phrased in a way that is acceptable to the masses.
After you've made, oh, say, 100 of these helpful posts, let's reconvene and you can share what you've learned from the experience.
:flowerforyou:
TL;DR - you've made 26 posts on this site since you joined 17 months ago, ~9 of which are in this thread. It's time to start being the change you are expecting from others.
I honestly know very little around the science of weight-loss compared to many posters. I'm learning. In my defense, despite my longevity on the site, until now I think my longest stretch of logging and using the site was about 15 days.
I am not a good example of what to do. When I am logging my calories I start to obsess about what I am eating, and my calories start dwindling until I am not eating enough, getting headaches constantly, and then going off the wagon when I can't do it anymore. I am pretty much the poster-child for what NOT to do. I am trying extremely extremely hard to break that pattern this time, but I struggle with it constantly. Where I am right now, in attempting to advise others I feel as though I am being a fat hypocrite instead of just fat.
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I read articles and nutrition studies in my free time to both learn and pass on the knowledge. I can get you started if you would like. 0 -
I read articles and nutrition studies in my free time to both learn and pass on the knowledge. I can get you started if you would like.
I would like that. I find a lot of the information on the forums is contradictory. Example: Starvation Mode. I see a post about it every day and some people post studies that show that it is a thing, and some people post studies that show that starvation mode can't happen to an obese person and then there is anecdotal evidence out the wazoo that support both claims. Me? I have no clue.0 -
Why is it sad?Also, some people use forums as a way to say things they would never say to a person's face. It's sad but true.0 -
and then there is anecdotal evidence out the wazoo that support both claims. Me? I have no clue.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data". Some fitness information is fairly clearcut and the only people who will be objecting to it are the ones who don't want to follow that advice. Other bits, such as starvation mode, or adaptive thermogenesis as it is more accurately known, are harder to pin down in the popular literature, primarily because the popular literature is typically written around research that was done a decade or more ago. My suggestion is to go directly to the science. In this case: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3673773/
This article provides a decent study of the long term effects of diet and concludes that:
Essentially that the body does become more efficient at using calories if caloric intake is reduced beyond a certain point, so a starvation diet might not be as efficient at cutting weight than a more moderately paced diet.Attempts to sustain weight loss invoke adaptive responses involving the coordinate actions of metabolic, neuroendocrine, autonomic, and behavioral changes that “oppose” the maintenance of a reduced bodyweight. This phenotype is distinct from that opposing dynamic weight loss per se. The multiplicity of systems regulating energy stores and opposing the maintenance of a reduced body weight illustrate that body energy stores in general and fat stores in particular are actively “defended” by interlocking bioenergetic and neurobiological physiologies. Important inferences can be drawn for therapeutic strategies by recognizing obesity as a state in which the human body actively opposes the “cure” over long periods of time beyond the initial resolution of symptomatology.0 -
I read articles and nutrition studies in my free time to both learn and pass on the knowledge. I can get you started if you would like.
I would like that. I find a lot of the information on the forums is contradictory. Example: Starvation Mode. I see a post about it every day and some people post studies that show that it is a thing, and some people post studies that show that starvation mode can't happen to an obese person and then there is anecdotal evidence out the wazoo that support both claims. Me? I have no clue.
Starvation Mode is misunderstood adaptive thermogenesis. Your body becomes more efficient at utilizing calories the greater your caloric deficit is. Some people believe that you will stop losing weight and start storing fat from what you eat. That part is untrue. Your effective TDEE is lowered, thus requiring less of an intake.
For starters, check out coursera.org. They offer an Intro to Human Physiology course that is pretty good and also a few nutrition courses. Those are a ways off before they stary though, so if you you want to shoot me a PM I will dig up some stuff for you to read until then.0 -
Good lord, people. There's a TL;DR at the bottom.
Didn't get to it
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I think people that bash on fat people are just terrified of being fat themselves, or were once fat, and think that because they were able to slim down, "everyone" should be able to do it. Well, technically everyone "should" be able to do it, but not everyone should be made to feel that they HAVE to do it. Losing weight is a fairly straightforward process if you distill it to its essence, but it's just not that easy for a lot of people and frankly, some people don't want to do it. And they shouldn't be made to feel like they're terrible people because looking slender isn't as much of a priority for them as it is for others. If someone is happy being fat, who am I to replace their happiness with discipline and a measure of deprivation? Whose quality of life is being improved here? I don't think a person needs to be the slimmest, most toned version of themselves to be a worthwhile human being, and frankly, I think it's absurd that anyone thinks that way. I know plenty of fat people who are worth knowing, and whether they ever choose to address their weight is completely immaterial to me. A person isn't their body, and honestly people who care more about their physique than anything else are generally people I find unappealing on every level.
But I have no problem with a goodly measure of salt in my discussions around here. If someone is spouting nonsense, I'll say so, and I won't mince words. People love to trot out paradigms like "starvation mode" and "eating clean" that are supported only by anecdotal hearsay, and try to give suggestions that won't fix a person's problem, and will likely make the problem worse. Every day, we get new people frustrated because they think they're doing everything right, but they're not losing weight. Generally speaking, if a person isn't losing weight, telling them to "eat moar calories" is not the answer, and yet that's the advice I see most often. Sometimes I think people just come here for permission to eat more, and others come to enable them. When "I'm not losing weight" is followed by "should I be eating more?", it's not hard to see what's really going on with the person. So when the usual suspects start in with "you've ruined your metabolism, oh noes!!!!!1111!!!!, I just can't be nice. I'm not all that nice to begin with. :devil:0
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