Fast Food Workers Striking?!?!?

cevalid

Poor McDonald's. Their employees are saying they want better pay. Even though McDonald's can hire all of these other people who want jobs on a temporary basis, they shouldn't have to do that, because they just shouldn't. People striking don't get paid. Since they are all so replaceable, why are we concerned about McDonald's?

Going just on the raise figure alone, do you really believe the CEO is working 14 million times harder than the employees? You could live the rest of your life comfortably on his raise. So no, I'm not worried that his employees have the gall to say that the work they are doing is earning him a cushy life, so they would like to be able to afford rent and food.

Effort in the USA is not necessarily correlated with salaries. Someone mentioned paramedics making $11 a hour. Does that mean they are making what they worth, or are only people who work jobs we consider unimportant making what they are worth?

One person being able to earn a $14 million raise is only possible through people at the top making grossly inflated sums of money, and that's only possible through underpaying the staff. I don't understand why that's just fine with so many people. If you really believe there is a job that pays a living wage available to every able bodied American within the current system (as implied by all the comments stating people just aren't working to better themselves), by the grace of "higher power" go thee. We have influence over where our lives go. If you really believe you have full control, you are in a comfortable illusion. If you start 10 miles behind everyone else but are expected to finish the race at the same time as everyone else, you'd probably wonder if it was possible, or if the race was worth it, and you'd almost certainly be feeling like this freaking race is rigged.

Bolded:

No, he's not working 14,000,000 times harder but the CEOs skills are 14,000,000 million times rarer than the ability to work a fast food shift is. Not just anyone can do it. You have to have the training, experience and talent to pull off this sort of job. You can't just walk in off the street with no background like you can for a McDonalds job.

Apples and oranges, you're comparing them.

Lol CEOs skills are 14,000,00 rarer.

No- not anyone can be a CEO. But you can increase your chances by

a. being born a man. Really, I recommend this. Its useful in almost all aspects of life.
b. be born into a family and circumstance of privilege
c. be white
d. be encouraged to do an MBA or lesser business degree- hopefully paid for by wealthy and supportive parents
e. learn to network real good at the bar with the boys.

Sorry common McDonalds workers! Shoulda tried harder!

And when you do happen to see a CEO who dosen't seem exceptionally bright or exceptionally exceptional- they are prolly just hiding their incredible skills.

a-c sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. There are women CEOs, ones that weren't born to families of privilege and ones that aren't white.

d You don't think CEOs should have MBAs? Why?

e. Networking is important in many businesses. It is a skill in and of itself. Why do you dislike this?

Bolded: First it's apples and oranges, now it's oversimplification. McDonalds is well known for promoting from within (local managerial positions). If they do work hard, if they do try harder, then can get paid more. It's a great system, rewarding effort instead of something ridiculous like rewarding time in.

You need this: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

FlaxMilk

It's a great system, rewarding effort instead of something ridiculous like rewarding time in.

Unless you're the CEO. Then it's not about effort, just about being a special snowflake.

I worked hard, am doing what I love, and am able to pay my bills. I'd love more money, but I'm comfortable enough. People who contribute to society-whether you view the work as valuable or not, with the ability for one person to get a $14 million raise, *someone* must be valuing those flipped burgers-shouldn't have to be special snowflakes with the abilities that as defined here are 14 million x rarer anyway in order to survive.

If a a CEO can make 14 million dollars in a raise because he is 14 million times rarer, then by definition you are actually proving that not everyone can achieve what he did. We can't all be rare. That's why we should all be able to afford to feed ourselves when we put in the labor.

Either way, going to bed now, because my company isn't on strike and like I said, couldn't afford to join them if they were.

brower47

Some facts yo

FACT: the minimum wage is not a living wage in most countries, particularly the US. EVERYONE pays the price for a low minimum wage. It is the best way to ensure dependence on welfare. It is the best way to ensure families live in poverty. It is the best way to create an even greater need for higher taxation.

FACT: most workers that end up on the minimum wage are from low socioeconomic backgrounds. Most are women. Lots are migrants.

FACT: When employers have all the power to demand more from their workers, while also failing to keep wages rising at the rate of inflation- we get what you call 'exploitation.' When workers can't take collective action or indeed bargain with employers, you allow exploitation to occur.

FACT: ALL companies can cut costs. THIS DOESN'T NEED TO COME FROM WAGES. There are so many ways to reduce operating costs /overheads before punishing the people that make your business possible. And its the right thing to do. Remember how American Airlines cut hundreds of thousands of dollars per year by putting one less olive in first class passangers salads? Yeah.

Bolded:

No.

You've never run a business have you?

No. Just did an economics degree.

Oh and just grew up in a household where dad owned a business. My stepdad also ownes a business- small business actually. Spent a lot of time learning from them as I grew up.

And ya know- being a union employee representing workers in a number of unstable sectors, I get to speak to workers, employers, government representatives, department heads and community members about how costs can be cut while ensuring we pay workers fairly and provide consistent work. We've done this successfully for lots of workers- whether it be in the steel industry or hairdressers.

Your economics degree is not serving you well in your previous comment then nor did your experiences with your father's business.

The steel industry as a whole would not agree with you nor the automobile industry. Really, most industries with heavy union influence, haven't weathered very well over the past two decades. Detroit is a great example. I guess your claim that companies can ALWAYS cut costs without it affecting workers is a bit ridiculous since a lot of companies have gone under trying to satisfy the ever increasing demands of their workers. It's a bit like the snake eating its own tail.

I'm glad that unions are on the decline in the private sector and it's a shame that they're on the rise in the government sector. It was a great asset to workers 1940 and before but pretty terrible after.

tigersword

Fast food and other minimum wage jobs are meant for high school and college students to earn a bit of spending money while their parents pay for all of their big expenses, which is why fast food restaurants and retail stores are only open after school, on weekends, and during school holidays.

:laugh: But, I do agree that these types of jobs are generally for people who don't solely rely on that job, sort of like Walmart. You have a lot of college-aged kids and elderly people on partial social security working there.

Regarding the strike being illegal, in my state, your employer can fire you if you don't come to work, so that wouldn't work here. If these fast food workers are claiming that they can't live on their wages, I seriously doubt that they afford to strike. And, what would they do after they got fired? They'd struggle to find a new job. It will be much harder for them to find a job after being fired (except in the same low-wage industry), especially with the job market the way that it is. I'm all for employee rights, but I wouldn't want to hire someone who went on strike over pay that they agreed to take. I'd see that person as unreliable. And, I'm assuming that they tried to find better employment before thinking about the strike. Since they're still at the companies that they're planning to strike, I'm going to assume that no other company would hire them. So, it's probably best to stick with the companies that hired them.

No business is going to fire their entire staff at once and shut themselves down for weeks to hire an entire new staff and train them. That would end up costing more than just paying their employees more.

Accepting a job at a certain pay rate is one thing, but being frozen in that rate forever is another thing entirely. Most companies like McDonald's, if they give raises at all, give $0.10 raises to an employee. A whole $4 a week more.

brower47

It's a great system, rewarding effort instead of something ridiculous like rewarding time in.

Unless you're the CEO. Then it's not about effort, just about being a special snowflake.

I worked hard, am doing what I love, and am able to pay my bills. I'd love more money, but I'm comfortable enough. People who contribute to society-whether you view the work as valuable or not, with the ability for one person to get a $14 million raise, *someone* must be valuing those flipped burgers-shouldn't have to be special snowflakes with the abilities that as defined here are 14 million x rarer anyway in order to survive.

If a a CEO can make 14 million dollars in a raise because he is 14 million times rarer, then by definition you are actually proving that not everyone can achieve what he did. We can't all be rare. That's why we should all be able to afford to feed ourselves when we put in the labor.

Either way, going to bed now, because my company isn't on strike and like I said, couldn't afford to join them if they were.

I never said that anyone's work isn't valuable, i just said certain skills are more rare and fetch a higher dollar as far as wages are concerned. I love everyone that works hard, be it a McDonalds shift worker or its CEO.

brower47

Poor McDonald's. Their employees are saying they want better pay. Even though McDonald's can hire all of these other people who want jobs on a temporary basis, they shouldn't have to do that, because they just shouldn't. People striking don't get paid. Since they are all so replaceable, why are we concerned about McDonald's?

Going just on the raise figure alone, do you really believe the CEO is working 14 million times harder than the employees? You could live the rest of your life comfortably on his raise. So no, I'm not worried that his employees have the gall to say that the work they are doing is earning him a cushy life, so they would like to be able to afford rent and food.

Effort in the USA is not necessarily correlated with salaries. Someone mentioned paramedics making $11 a hour. Does that mean they are making what they worth, or are only people who work jobs we consider unimportant making what they are worth?

One person being able to earn a $14 million raise is only possible through people at the top making grossly inflated sums of money, and that's only possible through underpaying the staff. I don't understand why that's just fine with so many people. If you really believe there is a job that pays a living wage available to every able bodied American within the current system (as implied by all the comments stating people just aren't working to better themselves), by the grace of "higher power" go thee. We have influence over where our lives go. If you really believe you have full control, you are in a comfortable illusion. If you start 10 miles behind everyone else but are expected to finish the race at the same time as everyone else, you'd probably wonder if it was possible, or if the race was worth it, and you'd almost certainly be feeling like this freaking race is rigged.

Bolded:

No, he's not working 14,000,000 times harder but the CEOs skills are 14,000,000 million times rarer than the ability to work a fast food shift is. Not just anyone can do it. You have to have the training, experience and talent to pull off this sort of job. You can't just walk in off the street with no background like you can for a McDonalds job.

Apples and oranges, you're comparing them.

Lol CEOs skills are 14,000,00 rarer.

No- not anyone can be a CEO. But you can increase your chances by

a. being born a man. Really, I recommend this. Its useful in almost all aspects of life.
b. be born into a family and circumstance of privilege
c. be white
d. be encouraged to do an MBA or lesser business degree- hopefully paid for by wealthy and supportive parents
e. learn to network real good at the bar with the boys.

Sorry common McDonalds workers! Shoulda tried harder!

And when you do happen to see a CEO who dosen't seem exceptionally bright or exceptionally exceptional- they are prolly just hiding their incredible skills.

a-c sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. There are women CEOs, ones that weren't born to families of privilege and ones that aren't white.

d You don't think CEOs should have MBAs? Why?

e. Networking is important in many businesses. It is a skill in and of itself. Why do you dislike this?

Bolded: First it's apples and oranges, now it's oversimplification. McDonalds is well known for promoting from within (local managerial positions). If they do work hard, if they do try harder, then can get paid more. It's a great system, rewarding effort instead of something ridiculous like rewarding time in.

You need this: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

That doesn't change my responses to a-c.

tigersword

What I don't get in this thread, people are complaining that McDonald's workers want more money, and justifying their complaints based on the fact that they themselves are underpaid.

So... Why is it the argument is MCDONALD'S WORKERS SHOULD GET PAID LESS! and not WE ALL SHOULD BE PAID MORE!

Personally, I feel an EMT should be getting paid a helluva lot more than $13 an hour. People who stock shelves at Walmart for a couple years on the overnight shift get paid that.

And then, why is ok for CEOs to just give themselves raises for whatever they want, it's perfectly ok for corporate executives to hand themselves millions and sometimes billions in bonus checks, but it's horrible that an employee should be paid enough money that they can afford a place to live and food to eat?

acogg

Not one day of unions has been good for America. Not one. They bombed and shot their way into the American workplace. They were terrorists as they are now.

cevalid

Some facts yo

FACT: the minimum wage is not a living wage in most countries, particularly the US. EVERYONE pays the price for a low minimum wage. It is the best way to ensure dependence on welfare. It is the best way to ensure families live in poverty. It is the best way to create an even greater need for higher taxation.

FACT: most workers that end up on the minimum wage are from low socioeconomic backgrounds. Most are women. Lots are migrants.

FACT: When employers have all the power to demand more from their workers, while also failing to keep wages rising at the rate of inflation- we get what you call 'exploitation.' When workers can't take collective action or indeed bargain with employers, you allow exploitation to occur.

FACT: ALL companies can cut costs. THIS DOESN'T NEED TO COME FROM WAGES. There are so many ways to reduce operating costs /overheads before punishing the people that make your business possible. And its the right thing to do. Remember how American Airlines cut hundreds of thousands of dollars per year by putting one less olive in first class passangers salads? Yeah.

Bolded:

No.

You've never run a business have you?

No. Just did an economics degree.

Oh and just grew up in a household where dad owned a business. My stepdad also ownes a business- small business actually. Spent a lot of time learning from them as I grew up.

And ya know- being a union employee representing workers in a number of unstable sectors, I get to speak to workers, employers, government representatives, department heads and community members about how costs can be cut while ensuring we pay workers fairly and provide consistent work. We've done this successfully for lots of workers- whether it be in the steel industry or hairdressers.

Your economics degree is not serving you well in your previous comment then nor did your experiences with your father's business.

The steel industry as a whole would not agree with you nor the automobile industry. Really, most industries with heavy union influence, haven't weathered very well over the past two decades. Detroit is a great example. I guess your claim that companies can ALWAYS cut costs without it affecting workers is a bit ridiculous since a lot of companies have gone under trying to satisfy the ever increasing demands of their workers. It's a bit like the snake eating its own tail.

I'm glad that unions are on the decline in the private sector and it's a shame that they're on the rise in the government sector. It was a great asset to workers 1940 and before but pretty terrible after.

Oh please 'ever increasing demands of workers.' Don't you just hate it when your workers want a fair wage that keeps up with inflation, along with decent working conditions and minimum health and safety standards!

Companies don't go under because of workers. Companies go under because they are producing too much of something/any amount of something without sufficient demand. Also because of more complicated things like illegal trade dumping (which is significant in my country due to our reliance on China's boom.)

Firstly, needing to cut costs is different to going under. If a company is going under, its going under.

If a company is experiencing a temporary squeeze they can cut costs without hurting workers.

I think its great that unions, who in the past successfully fought for the 40 hour work week and minimum safety standards, are now doing things in the private sector like ensuring that we have domestic violence clauses in agreements to help victims cope with the impact of domestic violence. I'm also a big fan of our campaigns for better paid maternity leave.

I also think its great that unions are campaigning for a better deal for people in insecure work. Casualisation has had a massive impact globally and its a big challenge we need to face.

If you don't care about working people then there is nothing more that can be said. I've never had it in me to look at disadvantage and exploitation and feel comfortable about it. I never will.

Fullsterkur_woman

Not one day of unions has been good for America. Not one. They bombed and shot their way into the American workplace. They were terrorists as they are now.

I'm sorry, but I have to call bovine scat on this one. Have you not read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair?
I'm not a fan in general, but there was a time for them. That time passed when they started their own racket of rabble-rousing and violence. Once they had a personal vested interest monetarily, it was all corruption, all the time.

Fullsterkur_woman

And then, why is ok for CEOs to just give themselves raises for whatever they want, it's perfectly ok for corporate executives to hand themselves millions and sometimes billions in bonus checks, but it's horrible that an employee should be paid enough money that they can afford a place to live and food to eat?

I don't think it's horrible. I just don't think that government mandating an increase in the minimum wage will solve the problem.

acogg

Read old newspapers. The organized hits were meant to terrorize. Read the first accounts, not revisionism.

brower47

Some facts yo

FACT: the minimum wage is not a living wage in most countries, particularly the US. EVERYONE pays the price for a low minimum wage. It is the best way to ensure dependence on welfare. It is the best way to ensure families live in poverty. It is the best way to create an even greater need for higher taxation.

FACT: most workers that end up on the minimum wage are from low socioeconomic backgrounds. Most are women. Lots are migrants.

FACT: When employers have all the power to demand more from their workers, while also failing to keep wages rising at the rate of inflation- we get what you call 'exploitation.' When workers can't take collective action or indeed bargain with employers, you allow exploitation to occur.

FACT: ALL companies can cut costs. THIS DOESN'T NEED TO COME FROM WAGES. There are so many ways to reduce operating costs /overheads before punishing the people that make your business possible. And its the right thing to do. Remember how American Airlines cut hundreds of thousands of dollars per year by putting one less olive in first class passangers salads? Yeah.

Bolded:

No.

You've never run a business have you?

No. Just did an economics degree.

Oh and just grew up in a household where dad owned a business. My stepdad also ownes a business- small business actually. Spent a lot of time learning from them as I grew up.

And ya know- being a union employee representing workers in a number of unstable sectors, I get to speak to workers, employers, government representatives, department heads and community members about how costs can be cut while ensuring we pay workers fairly and provide consistent work. We've done this successfully for lots of workers- whether it be in the steel industry or hairdressers.

Your economics degree is not serving you well in your previous comment then nor did your experiences with your father's business.

The steel industry as a whole would not agree with you nor the automobile industry. Really, most industries with heavy union influence, haven't weathered very well over the past two decades. Detroit is a great example. I guess your claim that companies can ALWAYS cut costs without it affecting workers is a bit ridiculous since a lot of companies have gone under trying to satisfy the ever increasing demands of their workers. It's a bit like the snake eating its own tail.

I'm glad that unions are on the decline in the private sector and it's a shame that they're on the rise in the government sector. It was a great asset to workers 1940 and before but pretty terrible after.

Oh please 'ever increasing demands of workers.' Don't you just hate it when your workers want a fair wage that keeps up with inflation, along with decent working conditions and minimum health and safety standards!

Companies don't go under because of workers. Companies go under because they are producing too much of something/any amount of something without sufficient demand. Also because of more complicated things like illegal trade dumping (which is significant in my country due to our reliance on China's boom.)

Firstly, needing to cut costs is different to going under. If a company is going under, its going under.

If a company is experiencing a temporary squeeze they can cut costs without hurting workers.

I think its great that unions, who in the past successfully fought for the 40 hour work week and minimum safety standards, are now doing things in the private sector like ensuring that we have domestic violence clauses in agreements to help victims cope with the impact of domestic violence. I'm also a big fan of our campaigns for better paid maternity leave.

I also think its great that unions are campaigning for a better deal for people in insecure work. Casualisation has had a massive impact globally and its a big challenge we need to face.

If you don't care about working people then there is nothing more that can be said. I've never had it in me to look at disadvantage and exploitation and feel comfortable about it. I never will.

That 'fair wage', increasing the minimum wage, is one of the greatest drivers of inflation. Please tell me you know how inflation works.

I care about people. Increasing the minimum wage is a like putting a band-aid on a cut jugular. It's ineffective and in many cases, detrimental to accomplishing your stated goal of helping the disadvantaged.

Bolded: Not the responsibility of the worker's place of work.

cevalid

Poor McDonald's. Their employees are saying they want better pay. Even though McDonald's can hire all of these other people who want jobs on a temporary basis, they shouldn't have to do that, because they just shouldn't. People striking don't get paid. Since they are all so replaceable, why are we concerned about McDonald's?

Going just on the raise figure alone, do you really believe the CEO is working 14 million times harder than the employees? You could live the rest of your life comfortably on his raise. So no, I'm not worried that his employees have the gall to say that the work they are doing is earning him a cushy life, so they would like to be able to afford rent and food.

Effort in the USA is not necessarily correlated with salaries. Someone mentioned paramedics making $11 a hour. Does that mean they are making what they worth, or are only people who work jobs we consider unimportant making what they are worth?

One person being able to earn a $14 million raise is only possible through people at the top making grossly inflated sums of money, and that's only possible through underpaying the staff. I don't understand why that's just fine with so many people. If you really believe there is a job that pays a living wage available to every able bodied American within the current system (as implied by all the comments stating people just aren't working to better themselves), by the grace of "higher power" go thee. We have influence over where our lives go. If you really believe you have full control, you are in a comfortable illusion. If you start 10 miles behind everyone else but are expected to finish the race at the same time as everyone else, you'd probably wonder if it was possible, or if the race was worth it, and you'd almost certainly be feeling like this freaking race is rigged.

Bolded:

No, he's not working 14,000,000 times harder but the CEOs skills are 14,000,000 million times rarer than the ability to work a fast food shift is. Not just anyone can do it. You have to have the training, experience and talent to pull off this sort of job. You can't just walk in off the street with no background like you can for a McDonalds job.

Apples and oranges, you're comparing them.

Lol CEOs skills are 14,000,00 rarer.

No- not anyone can be a CEO. But you can increase your chances by

a. being born a man. Really, I recommend this. Its useful in almost all aspects of life.
b. be born into a family and circumstance of privilege
c. be white
d. be encouraged to do an MBA or lesser business degree- hopefully paid for by wealthy and supportive parents
e. learn to network real good at the bar with the boys.

Sorry common McDonalds workers! Shoulda tried harder!

And when you do happen to see a CEO who dosen't seem exceptionally bright or exceptionally exceptional- they are prolly just hiding their incredible skills.

a-c sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. There are women CEOs, ones that weren't born to families of privilege and ones that aren't white.

d You don't think CEOs should have MBAs? Why?

e. Networking is important in many businesses. It is a skill in and of itself. Why do you dislike this?

Bolded: First it's apples and oranges, now it's oversimplification. McDonalds is well known for promoting from within (local managerial positions). If they do work hard, if they do try harder, then can get paid more. It's a great system, rewarding effort instead of something ridiculous like rewarding time in.

You need this: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

That doesn't change my responses to a-c.

Massive sigh. There is no chip on my shoulder. Thanks to being a straight white woman who went to an expensive private school and what we call 'sandstone university'. As a result I have jumped rungs in my career ladder, am paid well for someone my age and have had opportunities to leave my mark in the world that I never expected at this age.

Sure, I've worked hard. I've worked more 7 day weeks than 5 day weeks. I'm no stranger to a 12 hour work day and I network like a boss. But I'm sure there are a lot of people who weren't as lucky as me that would do the exact same if their circumstance had allowed them. I have the skills that I do, not just because I work hard, but because I was born into relative privilege.

The reason that the overwhelming number of CEOs are straight white men (I never, ever suggested that there were no women or members of a minority amongst the top 500) is because privilege exists- not because CEOs are necessarily brilliant or gifted or superhuman.

I would argue the most brilliant people with the most impressive intellectual skills are often in academia or the arts. But the highest paid public servant in most US states is the college baseball/basketball/football/hockey coach.

acogg

How exactly will dumb, don't show up on time, rude, gum smacking employees be paid? Oh, that's right. The same as polite, smart, attentive employees. Cause it needs to be fair.

brower47

Poor McDonald's. Their employees are saying they want better pay. Even though McDonald's can hire all of these other people who want jobs on a temporary basis, they shouldn't have to do that, because they just shouldn't. People striking don't get paid. Since they are all so replaceable, why are we concerned about McDonald's?

Going just on the raise figure alone, do you really believe the CEO is working 14 million times harder than the employees? You could live the rest of your life comfortably on his raise. So no, I'm not worried that his employees have the gall to say that the work they are doing is earning him a cushy life, so they would like to be able to afford rent and food.

Effort in the USA is not necessarily correlated with salaries. Someone mentioned paramedics making $11 a hour. Does that mean they are making what they worth, or are only people who work jobs we consider unimportant making what they are worth?

One person being able to earn a $14 million raise is only possible through people at the top making grossly inflated sums of money, and that's only possible through underpaying the staff. I don't understand why that's just fine with so many people. If you really believe there is a job that pays a living wage available to every able bodied American within the current system (as implied by all the comments stating people just aren't working to better themselves), by the grace of "higher power" go thee. We have influence over where our lives go. If you really believe you have full control, you are in a comfortable illusion. If you start 10 miles behind everyone else but are expected to finish the race at the same time as everyone else, you'd probably wonder if it was possible, or if the race was worth it, and you'd almost certainly be feeling like this freaking race is rigged.

Bolded:

No, he's not working 14,000,000 times harder but the CEOs skills are 14,000,000 million times rarer than the ability to work a fast food shift is. Not just anyone can do it. You have to have the training, experience and talent to pull off this sort of job. You can't just walk in off the street with no background like you can for a McDonalds job.

Apples and oranges, you're comparing them.

Lol CEOs skills are 14,000,00 rarer.

No- not anyone can be a CEO. But you can increase your chances by

a. being born a man. Really, I recommend this. Its useful in almost all aspects of life.
b. be born into a family and circumstance of privilege
c. be white
d. be encouraged to do an MBA or lesser business degree- hopefully paid for by wealthy and supportive parents
e. learn to network real good at the bar with the boys.

Sorry common McDonalds workers! Shoulda tried harder!

And when you do happen to see a CEO who dosen't seem exceptionally bright or exceptionally exceptional- they are prolly just hiding their incredible skills.

a-c sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. There are women CEOs, ones that weren't born to families of privilege and ones that aren't white.

d You don't think CEOs should have MBAs? Why?

e. Networking is important in many businesses. It is a skill in and of itself. Why do you dislike this?

Bolded: First it's apples and oranges, now it's oversimplification. McDonalds is well known for promoting from within (local managerial positions). If they do work hard, if they do try harder, then can get paid more. It's a great system, rewarding effort instead of something ridiculous like rewarding time in.

You need this: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

That doesn't change my responses to a-c.

Massive sigh. There is no chip on my shoulder. Thanks to being a straight white woman who went to an expensive private school and what we call 'sandstone university'. As a result I have jumped rungs in my career ladder, am paid well for someone my age and have had opportunities to leave my mark in the world that I never expected at this age.

Sure, I've worked hard. I've worked more 7 day weeks than 5 day weeks. I'm no stranger to a 12 hour work day and I network like a boss. But I'm sure there are a lot of people who weren't as lucky as me that would do the exact same if their circumstance had allowed them. I have the skills that I do, not just because I work hard, but because I was born into relative privilege.

The reason that the overwhelming number of CEOs are straight white men (I never, ever suggested that there were no women or members of a minority amongst the top 500) is because privilege exists- not because CEOs are necessarily brilliant or gifted or superhuman.

I would argue the most brilliant people with the most impressive intellectual skills are often in academia or the arts. But the highest paid public servant in most US states is the college baseball/basketball/football/hockey coach.

So raising the minimum wage will stick it to the privileged white man how? Will it remove privilege?

Doesn't matter if privilege is part of it or not. The CEOs making more money in a month than I'll make in a year still have skills that are equal to their pay. If they didn't, then their board of directors would put them out. Self interest, those of the board of directors and the most influential shareholders are going to make sure that their money is being well spent.

Bolded: :laugh: You based this on what exactly? How would you possibly quantify this assertion?

Edit: typo

tigersword

Some facts yo

FACT: the minimum wage is not a living wage in most countries, particularly the US. EVERYONE pays the price for a low minimum wage. It is the best way to ensure dependence on welfare. It is the best way to ensure families live in poverty. It is the best way to create an even greater need for higher taxation.

FACT: most workers that end up on the minimum wage are from low socioeconomic backgrounds. Most are women. Lots are migrants.

FACT: When employers have all the power to demand more from their workers, while also failing to keep wages rising at the rate of inflation- we get what you call 'exploitation.' When workers can't take collective action or indeed bargain with employers, you allow exploitation to occur.

FACT: ALL companies can cut costs. THIS DOESN'T NEED TO COME FROM WAGES. There are so many ways to reduce operating costs /overheads before punishing the people that make your business possible. And its the right thing to do. Remember how American Airlines cut hundreds of thousands of dollars per year by putting one less olive in first class passangers salads? Yeah.

Bolded:

No.

You've never run a business have you?

No. Just did an economics degree.

Oh and just grew up in a household where dad owned a business. My stepdad also ownes a business- small business actually. Spent a lot of time learning from them as I grew up.

And ya know- being a union employee representing workers in a number of unstable sectors, I get to speak to workers, employers, government representatives, department heads and community members about how costs can be cut while ensuring we pay workers fairly and provide consistent work. We've done this successfully for lots of workers- whether it be in the steel industry or hairdressers.

Your economics degree is not serving you well in your previous comment then nor did your experiences with your father's business.

The steel industry as a whole would not agree with you nor the automobile industry. Really, most industries with heavy union influence, haven't weathered very well over the past two decades. Detroit is a great example. I guess your claim that companies can ALWAYS cut costs without it affecting workers is a bit ridiculous since a lot of companies have gone under trying to satisfy the ever increasing demands of their workers. It's a bit like the snake eating its own tail.

I'm glad that unions are on the decline in the private sector and it's a shame that they're on the rise in the government sector. It was a great asset to workers 1940 and before but pretty terrible after.

Oh please 'ever increasing demands of workers.' Don't you just hate it when your workers want a fair wage that keeps up with inflation, along with decent working conditions and minimum health and safety standards!

Companies don't go under because of workers. Companies go under because they are producing too much of something/any amount of something without sufficient demand. Also because of more complicated things like illegal trade dumping (which is significant in my country due to our reliance on China's boom.)

Firstly, needing to cut costs is different to going under. If a company is going under, its going under.

If a company is experiencing a temporary squeeze they can cut costs without hurting workers.

I think its great that unions, who in the past successfully fought for the 40 hour work week and minimum safety standards, are now doing things in the private sector like ensuring that we have domestic violence clauses in agreements to help victims cope with the impact of domestic violence. I'm also a big fan of our campaigns for better paid maternity leave.

I also think its great that unions are campaigning for a better deal for people in insecure work. Casualisation has had a massive impact globally and its a big challenge we need to face.

If you don't care about working people then there is nothing more that can be said. I've never had it in me to look at disadvantage and exploitation and feel comfortable about it. I never will.

That 'fair wage', increasing the minimum wage, is one of the greatest drivers of inflation. Please tell me you know how inflation works.

I care about people. Increasing the minimum wage is a like putting a band-aid on a cut jugular. It's ineffective and in many cases, detrimental to accomplishing your stated goal of helping the disadvantaged.

Bolded: Not the responsibility of the worker's place of work.

Greatest driver of inflation? If only. The minimum wage in 1978 was $2.65. Adjusting to today's dollars makes it $9.49. So, in terms of buying power, minimum wage has decreased by about 25%. So why has inflation continued to rise faster and faster? Based on how minimum wage has changed, the average loaf of bread ($.34 in 1978) should cost $.85, and a gallon of gas ($.65 in 1978) should cost $1.63. Inflation certainly hasn't followed the minimum wage at all.

wheird

Quick question: Has the percentage of the population in poverty grown in the past 20 years?

cevalid

Poor McDonald's. Their employees are saying they want better pay. Even though McDonald's can hire all of these other people who want jobs on a temporary basis, they shouldn't have to do that, because they just shouldn't. People striking don't get paid. Since they are all so replaceable, why are we concerned about McDonald's?

Going just on the raise figure alone, do you really believe the CEO is working 14 million times harder than the employees? You could live the rest of your life comfortably on his raise. So no, I'm not worried that his employees have the gall to say that the work they are doing is earning him a cushy life, so they would like to be able to afford rent and food.

Effort in the USA is not necessarily correlated with salaries. Someone mentioned paramedics making $11 a hour. Does that mean they are making what they worth, or are only people who work jobs we consider unimportant making what they are worth?

One person being able to earn a $14 million raise is only possible through people at the top making grossly inflated sums of money, and that's only possible through underpaying the staff. I don't understand why that's just fine with so many people. If you really believe there is a job that pays a living wage available to every able bodied American within the current system (as implied by all the comments stating people just aren't working to better themselves), by the grace of "higher power" go thee. We have influence over where our lives go. If you really believe you have full control, you are in a comfortable illusion. If you start 10 miles behind everyone else but are expected to finish the race at the same time as everyone else, you'd probably wonder if it was possible, or if the race was worth it, and you'd almost certainly be feeling like this freaking race is rigged.

Bolded:

No, he's not working 14,000,000 times harder but the CEOs skills are 14,000,000 million times rarer than the ability to work a fast food shift is. Not just anyone can do it. You have to have the training, experience and talent to pull off this sort of job. You can't just walk in off the street with no background like you can for a McDonalds job.

Apples and oranges, you're comparing them.

Lol CEOs skills are 14,000,00 rarer.

No- not anyone can be a CEO. But you can increase your chances by

a. being born a man. Really, I recommend this. Its useful in almost all aspects of life.
b. be born into a family and circumstance of privilege
c. be white
d. be encouraged to do an MBA or lesser business degree- hopefully paid for by wealthy and supportive parents
e. learn to network real good at the bar with the boys.

Sorry common McDonalds workers! Shoulda tried harder!

And when you do happen to see a CEO who dosen't seem exceptionally bright or exceptionally exceptional- they are prolly just hiding their incredible skills.

a-c sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. There are women CEOs, ones that weren't born to families of privilege and ones that aren't white.

d You don't think CEOs should have MBAs? Why?

e. Networking is important in many businesses. It is a skill in and of itself. Why do you dislike this?

Bolded: First it's apples and oranges, now it's oversimplification. McDonalds is well known for promoting from within (local managerial positions). If they do work hard, if they do try harder, then can get paid more. It's a great system, rewarding effort instead of something ridiculous like rewarding time in.

You need this: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

That doesn't change my responses to a-c.

Massive sigh. There is no chip on my shoulder. Thanks to being a straight white woman who went to an expensive private school and what we call 'sandstone university'. As a result I have jumped rungs in my career ladder, am paid well for someone my age and have had opportunities to leave my mark in the world that I never expected at this age.

Sure, I've worked hard. I've worked more 7 day weeks than 5 day weeks. I'm no stranger to a 12 hour work day and I network like a boss. But I'm sure there are a lot of people who weren't as lucky as me that would do the exact same if their circumstance had allowed them. I have the skills that I do, not just because I work hard, but because I was born into relative privilege.

The reason that the overwhelming number of CEOs are straight white men (I never, ever suggested that there were no women or members of a minority amongst the top 500) is because privilege exists- not because CEOs are necessarily brilliant or gifted or superhuman.

I would argue the most brilliant people with the most impressive intellectual skills are often in academia or the arts. But the highest paid public servant in most US states is the college baseball/basketball/football/hockey coach.

So raising the minimum wage will stick it to the privileged white man how? Will it remove privilege?

Doesn't matter if privilege is part of it or not. The CEOs making more money in a month than I'll make in a year still have skills that are equal to their pay. If they didn't, then their board of directors would put them out. Self interest, those of the board of directors and the most influential shareholders are going to make sure that their money is being well spent.

Bolded: :laugh: You based this one what exactly? How would you possibly quantify this assertion?

Two completely different arguments. Firstly why CEO pay is so high: You said that CEOs are paid more because they are something like 14 million or billion times more skilled than low paid workers. My point is that skill is one small part of a very big and unfair pie. Twenty people in the one company could be equally wonderfully amazingly skilled. They could all fill the basic criteria. But nineteen are either female and or from an ethnic minority. Statistics show that the one person who is from the ethnic majority and who is male is most likely to be chosen. And also because George Bush.

And the entire 'if ya work hard one day you'll be a billionaire CEO young Timmy' is absolute and utter rubbish in almost all circumstances. Because if Timmy is a poor ethnic child with abusive, drug-addicted parents and no access to higher education, little Timmy could have all the potential in the world and it wouldn't mean anything.

The second argument is against raising the minimum wage- here we have raised the minimum wage to $18.50 per hour. Sky hasn't fallen in. We do, however, have a much lower percentage of the population living in poverty. For reference please see almost all Scandanavian countries

As for believing that there are lots of smart people in academia- personal experience. An opinion matey.

mikesavvy

Never worked at one and I hope I don't have to. 15$ n hour in most parts of Cali is barely enough to live. And any customer service job is tough and you want the people handling you food to be happy.

I hope they do get what they want.

jofjltncb6

And also because George Bush.

LOLsigh

:huh:

kamakazeekim

Here's my 2 cents as a social worker....Not everyone is meant to go to college and of those who don't they all can't get into higher paying/lower education jobs like construction. America, as well as other post-industrialized countries, have service based economies which means a lot of people who are working at gas stations, in the food industry, in our stores and shopping malls, farm labor, custodial and other such LOW paying jobs. You CANNOT support a family on less than about $12 an hour (heavily dependent on where you live...it would be much more in a big city) There is a whole multitude of reasons for what keeps people in poverty and one of the biggest reasons is that there really truly is no hope for people barely surviving day to day. The American dream is long gone. Minimum wage must keep up with inflation otherwise we're just fostering more dependency on food-stamps and other welfare programs.

PtheronJr

Not one day of unions has been good for America. Not one. They bombed and shot their way into the American workplace. They were terrorists as they are now.

Hahahahaha. Hahahahahahaha!
Wow, this is incredible, this has to be a troll. You have to be entirely ignorant of American history to make a claim like this.

brower47

Poor McDonald's. Their employees are saying they want better pay. Even though McDonald's can hire all of these other people who want jobs on a temporary basis, they shouldn't have to do that, because they just shouldn't. People striking don't get paid. Since they are all so replaceable, why are we concerned about McDonald's?

Going just on the raise figure alone, do you really believe the CEO is working 14 million times harder than the employees? You could live the rest of your life comfortably on his raise. So no, I'm not worried that his employees have the gall to say that the work they are doing is earning him a cushy life, so they would like to be able to afford rent and food.

Effort in the USA is not necessarily correlated with salaries. Someone mentioned paramedics making $11 a hour. Does that mean they are making what they worth, or are only people who work jobs we consider unimportant making what they are worth?

One person being able to earn a $14 million raise is only possible through people at the top making grossly inflated sums of money, and that's only possible through underpaying the staff. I don't understand why that's just fine with so many people. If you really believe there is a job that pays a living wage available to every able bodied American within the current system (as implied by all the comments stating people just aren't working to better themselves), by the grace of "higher power" go thee. We have influence over where our lives go. If you really believe you have full control, you are in a comfortable illusion. If you start 10 miles behind everyone else but are expected to finish the race at the same time as everyone else, you'd probably wonder if it was possible, or if the race was worth it, and you'd almost certainly be feeling like this freaking race is rigged.

Bolded:

No, he's not working 14,000,000 times harder but the CEOs skills are 14,000,000 million times rarer than the ability to work a fast food shift is. Not just anyone can do it. You have to have the training, experience and talent to pull off this sort of job. You can't just walk in off the street with no background like you can for a McDonalds job.

Apples and oranges, you're comparing them.

Lol CEOs skills are 14,000,00 rarer.

No- not anyone can be a CEO. But you can increase your chances by

a. being born a man. Really, I recommend this. Its useful in almost all aspects of life.
b. be born into a family and circumstance of privilege
c. be white
d. be encouraged to do an MBA or lesser business degree- hopefully paid for by wealthy and supportive parents
e. learn to network real good at the bar with the boys.

Sorry common McDonalds workers! Shoulda tried harder!

And when you do happen to see a CEO who dosen't seem exceptionally bright or exceptionally exceptional- they are prolly just hiding their incredible skills.

a-c sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. There are women CEOs, ones that weren't born to families of privilege and ones that aren't white.

d You don't think CEOs should have MBAs? Why?

e. Networking is important in many businesses. It is a skill in and of itself. Why do you dislike this?

Bolded: First it's apples and oranges, now it's oversimplification. McDonalds is well known for promoting from within (local managerial positions). If they do work hard, if they do try harder, then can get paid more. It's a great system, rewarding effort instead of something ridiculous like rewarding time in.

You need this: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

That doesn't change my responses to a-c.

Massive sigh. There is no chip on my shoulder. Thanks to being a straight white woman who went to an expensive private school and what we call 'sandstone university'. As a result I have jumped rungs in my career ladder, am paid well for someone my age and have had opportunities to leave my mark in the world that I never expected at this age.

Sure, I've worked hard. I've worked more 7 day weeks than 5 day weeks. I'm no stranger to a 12 hour work day and I network like a boss. But I'm sure there are a lot of people who weren't as lucky as me that would do the exact same if their circumstance had allowed them. I have the skills that I do, not just because I work hard, but because I was born into relative privilege.

The reason that the overwhelming number of CEOs are straight white men (I never, ever suggested that there were no women or members of a minority amongst the top 500) is because privilege exists- not because CEOs are necessarily brilliant or gifted or superhuman.

I would argue the most brilliant people with the most impressive intellectual skills are often in academia or the arts. But the highest paid public servant in most US states is the college baseball/basketball/football/hockey coach.

So raising the minimum wage will stick it to the privileged white man how? Will it remove privilege?

Doesn't matter if privilege is part of it or not. The CEOs making more money in a month than I'll make in a year still have skills that are equal to their pay. If they didn't, then their board of directors would put them out. Self interest, those of the board of directors and the most influential shareholders are going to make sure that their money is being well spent.

Bolded: :laugh: You based this one what exactly? How would you possibly quantify this assertion?

Two completely different arguments. Firstly why CEO pay is so high: You said that CEOs are paid more because they are something like 14 million or billion times more skilled than low paid workers. My point is that skill is one small part of a very big and unfair pie. Twenty people in the one company could be equally wonderfully amazingly skilled. They could all fill the basic criteria. But nineteen are either female and or from an ethnic minority. Statistics show that the one person who is from the ethnic majority and who is male is most likely to be chosen. And also because George Bush.

And the entire 'if ya work hard one day you'll be a billionaire CEO young Timmy' is absolute and utter rubbish in almost all circumstances. Because if Timmy is a poor ethnic child with abusive, drug-addicted parents and no access to higher education, little Timmy could have all the potential in the world and it wouldn't mean anything.

The second argument is against raising the minimum wage- here we have raised the minimum wage to $18.50 per hour. Sky hasn't fallen in. We do, however, have a much lower percentage of the population living in poverty. For reference please see almost all Scandanavian countries

As for believing that there are lots of smart people in academia- personal experience. An opinion matey.

1st bolded: We're just going to have to agree to disagree. We disagree so greatly on the fundamentals of this equation that we might as well start talking religion, we'll probably get further on that one.

2nd bolded: That's what we'll have to say about this entire thread. We've all get em and what comes out of them is rarely anything but crap (including myself before anyone gets indignant).

Have a good night (no sarcasm). It's been interesting (no sarcasm).

Edit: You cannot compare Scandinavian countries to the US. Apples and oranges once again. Just wanted to add this as one more point on which we simply disagree.

cevalid

And also because George Bush.

LOLsigh

:huh:

Just one shining example of the shareholders reelecting the most skilled candidate, with the benefit of a four year performance review.

wiscck

Will all of you who live in an America that is a meritocracy tell me how to get to your alternate universe? Because I might prefer your version better than the reality.

tigersword

Quick question: Has the percentage of the population in poverty grown in the past 20 years?

Yes, which considering how fast the population has grown, seeing the percentage of people in poverty going up is a ridiculous increase. There are 20,000,000 more people living in poverty in the US today compared to 20 years ago. 20 years ago it was about 13% of the population, today it's about 16%.

WendyTerry420

What no one has mentioned is the purchase power of the American dollar. The problem is not that people don't earn enough money, it's that money doesn't buy what it used to. The post-Federal Reserve inflated dollar is worth only two cents compared to the pre-Federal Reserve dollar.

Beastmaster50

Not one day of unions has been good for America. Not one. They bombed and shot their way into the American workplace. They were terrorists as they are now.

This is the most clueless post in this entire thread. Completely clueless.

MeanderingMammal

If a company is experiencing a temporary squeeze they can cut costs without hurting workers.

There is a reality around the proportion of cost within a business though. Clearly it's subject to industry but generally headcount is the largest single cost within a business, so the benefits from reducing costs in that area are far more significant than elsewhere.

The other big cost is generally property, it's possible to reduce costs here but not significantly without either reducing footprint or moving. there are significant upfront costs in both of those cases, and there are other consequences. Reducing footprint is likely to lead to headcount reduction anyway, and moving may have an impact is location is important, as in the hospitality industry where location is pretty much everything.

If you don't care about working people then there is nothing more that can be said. I've never had it in me to look at disadvantage and exploitation and feel comfortable about it. I never will.

Personally I think that unions are great in principle, and some are far more effective than others. Those that are led by people who have a solid understanding of business and can have a grown up discussion are far better placed to support their members.