Please explain low carbs and it's magical proprieties

KayNowayJose

Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet.......I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.

Very low carb has been a standard part of the potential treatment regime for those types conditions for donkey's years.

Exactly my point. She spoke saying that she saw the diet as not advisable....apparently, for some, it can be.

QuietBloom

Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet.......I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.

Very low carb has been a standard part of the potential treatment regime for those types conditions for donkey's years.

Yep. Engineered for epileptic children originally. And been around forever.

Just because it is a disease treatment doesn't automatically make it a superior diet for everyone.

From the Epilepsy Foundation:

Side Effects

Like all the other treatments for epilepsy, the ketogenic diet has side effects, which may or may not affect a particular child. Some side effects may go away if caught and managed early on. Knowing what to look for can make a big difference. Reported side effects include dehydration, constipation, and, sometimes, complications from kidney stones or gall stones.
Adult women on the diet may have menstrual irregularities. Pancreatitis (inflammation of the pancreas), decreased bone density and certain eye problems have also been reported. Again, this is why the medical team closely follows children or adults who are on the diet.
The diet lacks several important vitamins which have to be added through supplements. Sometimes high levels of fat build up in the blood, especially if a child has an inborn defect in his ability to process fat. This possibility can lead to serious effects, which is another reason for careful monitoring.

Mr_Knight

Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet.......I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.

Very low carb has been a standard part of the potential treatment regime for those types conditions for donkey's years.

Exactly my point. She spoke saying that she saw the diet as not advisable....apparently, for some, it can be.

This is dieting site, not a "deal with neurological issues" site. The person you are referencing is correct to do so within the context of this site.

KayNowayJose

I AM not saying it is superior, I never did. All I am saying is....hm, maybe others shouldn't immediately attack it, because for MANY it DOES work, and causes MANY benefits, MOST without MEDICAL conditions.

jofjltncb6

The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.

I had assumed OP was asking about how the diet worked for healthy individuals without a specific medical condition.



Oh, MFP...

...a nice variation on "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION!"

Excuse me?

Are medical conditions not to be taken into consideration upon maintaining one's health? Then why diet at all! Diabetes, donuts, heart disease and happy meals, clogged arteries and cake, here I come! I WANT it ALL so I'm going to eat it all. Screw dieting. What's the point, I'll try them all at once.

If anyone wants to pretend to know anything about keto, they could easily find even the simplest online resources, quotes, medical studies, so on about epilepsy and dieting. To not know the two have can be intertwined is to show all the more that one has no credit to speak on it.

I think you're missing my point. Following your logic, every single post should be prefaced with a disclaimer that covers things like specific medical conditions...but it isn't necessary because (almost) everyone understands that it's implied.

And the research doesn't support your position that doughnuts cause diabetes, happy meals cause heart disease, and cake causes clogged arteries. It's this kind of ridiculous thinking that others are trying to combat with actual research...but then you play the "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION" as support for why everyone should be on the same special diet.

If you don't understand this distinction, nothing I can type will persuade you...but just realize that there are a lot of people out there who *do* understand the distinction I'm making...and we all hope your day of enlightenment is soon...for the benefit of all who might be misled by your posts.


Edit: clarification

QuietBloom

This is getting really long and tedious, but hopefully this breakdown helps you understand...Let me know if you have any concerns that I'm somehow still not addressing.

My first point: Ketogenesis elicits an initial weight drop. I showed you evidence for this and you agree with it anyways.

My second point: Ketogenic diets are not superior over the long-term (i.e. >1 year). BOTH articles I cited as suggested reading agree on this:
Astrup et al: "Although these studies provide evidence that a low-carbohydrate diet does produce increased weight loss over 3–6 months and might be superior to the recommended calorie-reduced low-fat diet, the 12-month studies also indicate that the low-carbohydrate diet may be no better in the longer term. The studies also had important limitations. Adherence to the diets was low, and dropout rates were high. [...] The three studies are important, but are not evidence that low-carbohydrate diets in the long term are superior to the energy-restricted low-fat diet."

Nordmann et al: "After 6 months, individuals assigned to low-carbohydrate diets had lost more weight than individuals randomized to low-fat diets. [...] After 12 months there was no significant difference in weight loss between individuals in the 3 trials randomized to low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets."

Both studies, as well as the White study on keto and fatigue, support what I've been saying to you.

I tried going very low carb once. I lasted 6 months. The fatique was finally too much for me. I went from briskly walking from task to task in the lab to a slow painful crawl. They call this the low-carb 'flu' and your 'supposed' to get over it. I never did.

QuietBloom

The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.

I had assumed OP was asking about how the diet worked for healthy individuals without a specific medical condition.



Oh, MFP...

...a nice variation on "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION!"

ROTFL

gigglesinthesun

The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.

I had assumed OP was asking about how the diet worked for healthy individuals without a specific medical condition.



Oh, MFP...

...a nice variation on "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION!"

Excuse me?

Are medical conditions not to be taken into consideration upon maintaining one's health? Then why diet at all! Diabetes, donuts, heart disease and happy meals, clogged arteries and cake, here I come! I WANT it ALL so I'm going to eat it all. Screw dieting. What's the point, I'll try them all at once.

If anyone wants to pretend to know anything about keto, they could easily find even the simplest online resources, quotes, medical studies, so on about epilepsy and dieting. To not know the two have can be intertwined is to show all the more that one has no credit to speak on it.

I don't think your body works in quite the same way as a normal body which is what the other poster was getting at. It's not meant to be insulting :huh:

KayNowayJose

Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet.......I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.

Very low carb has been a standard part of the potential treatment regime for those types conditions for donkey's years.

Exactly my point. She spoke saying that she saw the diet as not advisable....apparently, for some, it can be.

This is dieting site, not a "deal with neurological issues" site. The person you are referencing is correct to do so within the context of this site.

Then my only suggestion? You may want to expand your reasons as to why members may be on this site. Weight loss and health, usually have more than one goal and one side effect.

Sarahnade42x

Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet....with ALL test results coming back normal after beginning such? I'd love to send you the 'data'. If you're going to talk careers and educations, please do so with complete respect and understand that although these are JUST links,for some people on this site they have provided results and from from physicians and doctors(I have went to 5 neurologists!....5!!!! and coming from 3600 mg of medications, not including vitamins - my seizures have only started 6 years ago too). I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.

In the meantime, I have lost weight, over 11 pounds, no longer crave carbs or sugars, and my energy level has went through the roof (let me remind you that most seizure medications have a side effect of making one tired, groggy and absentminded).

So please, all I'm asking, is take this into consideration. I DO NOT judge another's diet approach - do MORE research yourself before you judge another's. The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.

Yes! I'm absolutely for you making dietary decisions that are approved by your physicians FOR YOU. Ketogenic diets do play a strong role in the management of epilepsy and if you're seeing positive results from making that switch, then I'm extremely glad for that. I hope you don't see my posts as an attack towards a method that has worked for you so far. I'm glad it has, truly :flowerforyou: You bring up a great point that all the research we're discussing is based on statistics and not the individual. However, the research also shows us trends about what a randomized sample of people experiences - and in the case of keto and weight loss, they tend not to experience much of a difference after one year.
At the end of the day, people will make their own nutritional choices and eventually find what works best for them -- my only hope is that in the meantime that they don't misinterpret the research or fall for pseudoscience weight loss methods without first thinking critically about the data or talking to a physician.

supaflyrobby

I can only talk on this subject from my own personal experience, as I do not have a scientific background for anything other than computers.

That said, I have been on an essentially ketogenic diet for about the last 7 months. I am down just shy of 65 pounds (20 since coming to MFP) and I have not felt this fantastic since high school. My energy levels are through the roof, and my generalized outlook has never been better.

I like the diet because my intake of protein keeps me full for longer periods, and It is fairly simple to stay consistent on because the foods taste good and are very satisfying. It can get to be expensive though, especially if you are a stickler on very lean cuts of meat like I am, but I almost never feel hungry, and the weight continues to come off.

You can also get bread and pasta which is low or zero carb if you just have to get your fix on starch. Julian bakery offers it, but it is extremely expensive and I honestly do not miss it all that much anyway. Women seem to have a bigger problem staying consistent on it as they tend to have bigger cravings for sugar, but there again, they have alternatives out there for those who absolutely must have some form of sweets.

I have taken the time to read numerous sources on the diet since I am a practitioner of it, and the opinions expressed are about as diverse as you will find among zealots discussing politics.

All I know is that it is working for me, but what others choose to do with their dietary intake is their own business. There is no "one size fits all" solution in this journey.

KayNowayJose

The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.

I had assumed OP was asking about how the diet worked for healthy individuals without a specific medical condition.



Oh, MFP...

...a nice variation on "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION!"

Excuse me?

Are medical conditions not to be taken into consideration upon maintaining one's health? Then why diet at all! Diabetes, donuts, heart disease and happy meals, clogged arteries and cake, here I come! I WANT it ALL so I'm going to eat it all. Screw dieting. What's the point, I'll try them all at once.

If anyone wants to pretend to know anything about keto, they could easily find even the simplest online resources, quotes, medical studies, so on about epilepsy and dieting. To not know the two have can be intertwined is to show all the more that one has no credit to speak on it.

I think you're missing my point. Following your logic, every single post should be prefaced with a disclaimer that covers things like specific medical conditions...but it isn't necessary because (almost) everyone understands that it's implied.

And the research doesn't support your position that doughnuts cause diabetes, happy meals cause heart disease, and cake causes clogged arteries. It's this kind of ridiculous thinking that others are trying to combat with actual research...but then you play the "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION" as support for why everyone should be on the same special diet.

If you don't understand this distinction, nothing I can type will persuade you...but just realize that there are a lot of people out there who *do* understand the distinction I'm making...and we all hope your day of enlightenment is soon...for the benefit of all who might be misled by your posts.


Edit: clarification

I was combating one individual who did exactly as you are describing. Who was arguing that a DIET would lead to serious medical issues, and therefore should not be advised.

Would it require a disclaimer? No, but to be condescending to the individual she was conversing with, throwing out education credits, when obviously the diet CAN be beneficial, I do apologize, sincerely do, ;-) but I was prompted, maybe my inner self...to try to lead someone to be a little more open minded?


But wait, I have a medical condition, so I'm a special exception. Because I work so differently. Sigh.

KayNowayJose

The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.

I had assumed OP was asking about how the diet worked for healthy individuals without a specific medical condition.



Oh, MFP...

...a nice variation on "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION!"

Excuse me?

Are medical conditions not to be taken into consideration upon maintaining one's health? Then why diet at all! Diabetes, donuts, heart disease and happy meals, clogged arteries and cake, here I come! I WANT it ALL so I'm going to eat it all. Screw dieting. What's the point, I'll try them all at once.

If anyone wants to pretend to know anything about keto, they could easily find even the simplest online resources, quotes, medical studies, so on about epilepsy and dieting. To not know the two have can be intertwined is to show all the more that one has no credit to speak on it.

I don't think your body works in quite the same way as a normal body which is what the other poster was getting at. It's not meant to be insulting :huh:

The only thing I'm insulted by is how people fail to be open minded, but I'm a always an optimist and expect this to go away with age. Trust me I'm aware my body works differently and would not exchange it. Any disrespectful comments I have received ever (few and far between)...I simply disregard as ignorant.

Bobbie8786

I like the KISS method of dieting. I log my calories and stop eating when they are gone. It' s crazy how the weight then "magically" comes off. I tired low carb, it was unsustainable long-term. This time, I eat what I want and I like it.

vjohn04

Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet.......I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.

Very low carb has been a standard part of the potential treatment regime for those types conditions for donkey's years.

Exactly my point. She spoke saying that she saw the diet as not advisable....apparently, for some, it can be.

So if I were to infer what you're saying.....

If a Type 1 diabetic is prescribed insulin to address their medical condition, then all people should inject insulin

or

if a person needs chemotherapy because they have cancer, then all people should receive chemotherapy



Just because something was prescribed to you, does not mean it's a solution for everyone.

Saramelie

For the same calories, you should have the same weight effects.

For me, though, when I eat carbs, I tend to crave more carbs, and then I crave even more carbs after that, and I end up eating a lot more. So for me, the point is not that it's low carb, but that it's high protein and fat. With protein and fat, I stay full, I don't get cravings, and I stay on my caloric target better.

Same here!

KayNowayJose

Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet....with ALL test results coming back normal after beginning such? I'd love to send you the 'data'. If you're going to talk careers and educations, please do so with complete respect and understand that although these are JUST links,for some people on this site they have provided results and from from physicians and doctors(I have went to 5 neurologists!....5!!!! and coming from 3600 mg of medications, not including vitamins - my seizures have only started 6 years ago too). I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.

In the meantime, I have lost weight, over 11 pounds, no longer crave carbs or sugars, and my energy level has went through the roof (let me remind you that most seizure medications have a side effect of making one tired, groggy and absentminded).

So please, all I'm asking, is take this into consideration. I DO NOT judge another's diet approach - do MORE research yourself before you judge another's. The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.

Yes! I'm absolutely for you making dietary decisions that are approved by your physicians FOR YOU. Ketogenic diets do play a strong role in the management of epilepsy and if you're seeing positive results from making that switch, then I'm extremely glad for that. I hope you don't see my posts as an attack towards a method that has worked for you so far. I'm glad it has, truly :flowerforyou: You bring up a great point that all the research we're discussing is based on statistics and not the individual. However, the research also shows us trends about what a randomized sample of people experiences - and in the case of keto and weight loss, they tend not to experience much of a difference after one year.
At the end of the day, people will make their own nutritional choices and eventually find what works best for them -- my only hope is that in the meantime that they don't misinterpret the research or fall for pseudoscience weight loss methods without first thinking critically about the data or talking to a physician.

Thank you. And unfortunately, since we are talking personal experience and each individual, I cannot speak on myself and results after a year for as I have not been on the diet for a year, and as well, weight loss is not my main goal.

And I too agree, talking to a physician is of up most importance.

Because then, well, people would be educated, and nobody could tell them their diet was wrong for them, haha.

KayNowayJose

Hahah, no, dear me.

If you read my previous post you saw I went to medical professionals...so how would you think this?

No, nevermind.

tkcasta

There's no special magic that happens. For me I don't consider myself on a low carb diet, but technically I am. It's more about changing the ratio of protein and fat intake. I like it because overall I feel like I get to eat a lot more (carbs are pretty calorie dense) and I feel satiated longer.

jofjltncb6

Are you thinking of a ketogenic low carb diet? That plan basically relies on the idea that:
-Your cells (especially your brain) need glucose (a carbohydrate) to produce energy.
-If your body doesn't have enough carbohydrate, it'll turn stored fat into something called a "ketone body" that can be used for energy instead. This uses up fat storage.

I don't swear by this diet; I actually don't think it's a good idea at all. Ketones are a much less efficient energy source and you'll most likely feel fatigued or foggy after the switch (your brain would be the first organ to suffer from a drop in glucose levels). Also consider how high your blood lipid profile would be on a low-carb, high-fat diet. Not good. Personally, I'd rather give my body adequate levels of all the nutrients it needs instead of pseudo-starve it and hope the ketogenesis makes me drop a few pounds.

Can you provide sources for your statements? As in peer reviewed scientific literature, or medical doctor advice on his/her website, or information disseminated by a university with medical faculty? Very easy to state claims without back up of sources.

Absolutely I'm finishing a neuroscience degree with a strong background in biochemistry and human physiology, but apparently PubMed links can make anyone on this site more credible, so let's do it.

You might not have access to the full text, so I screen-shotted the important things to note (although if you do have access, I recommend reading the entire paper over excerpts):

To support my comments on fatigue and weight loss efforts: http://snapplr.com/2hgg On blood lipids and overall health recommendations: http://snapplr.com/hpaz
White, A.M. et al. (2007). Blood Ketones Are Directly Related to Fatigue and Perceived Effort during Exercise in Overweight Adults Adhering to Low-Carbohydrate Diets for Weight Loss: A Pilot Study. Journal of the American Dietetic Association 107, 1792–1796.
https://www-clinicalkey-com.ezp3.lib.umn.edu/#!/ContentPlayerCtrl/doPlayContent/1-s2.0-S0002822307014757

Many many studies will tell you that ketogenic diets don't make weight loss any more successful in the long term, even if they result in an initial drop. Some reading suggestions:
Astrup, A et al (2004). Atkins and other low-carbohydrate diets: hoax or an effective tool for weight loss? The Lancet 364, 897–899.
http://www.sciencedirect.com.ezp2.lib.umn.edu/science/article/pii/S0140673604169869

Nordmann AJ et al (2006). Effects of low-carbohydrate vs low-fat diets on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors: A meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. Arch Intern Med 166, 285–293.
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=409791

I'm totally open to more discussion and reading (there are aspects of these articles, and others - that I agree and disagree with), but at this point I don't think following a low carb ketogenic diet is advisable -- definitely not for me or my health goals. I'm much more strongly convinced by the data on general caloric restriction and health, and I think you would be too if you looked into that.

Excellent background.
I am not sure if I have crossed swords with you before- maybe on that ridiculous glycogen hydration thread.
You should take a look a Hagan's pilot study as he reports it in "Breakfast is the least important meal of the day". Its the kindle version, but the first ten pages are free.
Basically, he found great benefits to the fasting state produced by skipping breakfast, even though people had no eating restriction for the ten hour period following that started at noon.
People's perception of hunger changed, they felt less stress, slept better. And they lost weight.
Even more intriguing, a weight-lifter found his was GAINING strength, with an improved recovery time.
As you know, in the fasting, or stress reaction, state, you not only get cortisol and epinephrine, but growth hormone and glucogon as well.
I think the daily growth hormone burst explains a lot of the benefits.
As well as simple learned behavior.
For anyone pursuing a higher degree in those fields, I think it would make the basis of a great study- a study that would actually MEAN something in the grand scheme of things.

Hey, look...it's the guy pitching a book again.