Is chivalry really dead? :(

FatHuMan1

In societies where chivalry is not practiced, women are treated as property, as lesser, because it is animal nature (and humans are animals, after all) for the strong to prey on the weak. Women are abused, held back, put down. It's so bad in some areas to this day, that a women's genitalia is mutilated to prevent her from enjoying sex and potentially cheating on her husband, who owns her and her body in that way. It is this way because men are physically stronger and have more clout in that society.

This is very emotive, like much of the strange "pro-chivarly" stuff in this thread. We're using the term "chivalrous" to mean "kind" or "gallant" or "compassionate" or "considerate" or any other number of things. With chivalry we protect our honor with duels. Seriously, duels?

Who here is pro-duel??

"Oh, well that's not what I mean when I talk about chivalry, I'm actually talking about gallantry but I'm calling it chivalry!"

If we're to pick words and give them our own definitions and defend to the death the definitions, then it's a silly discussion, isn't it?

I am pro-duel.

KarmaKills

I guess I fail to see the conflict between chivalry and equality.

Chivalry is a way of treating people...

Equality is allowing people an equal opportunity for achievement.

Men who hold back chivalry in the name of equality do so out of holding a grudge, or because they don't like showing respect to women in the first place.

But that's just my opinion.

^^ This!!! ^^

Loss4TheWin

Why do only women get to get put on a pedestal?

Good question, maybe because I'm a guy and not about to put another man on a pedestal. In actuality "pedestal" is probably the wrong word as it implies they're infallible or better. Neither of which is true. A better word might be acknowledgement, and yes it is acknowledgement in a gender specific role. You may not see the point in it. I enjoy the differences between men and women, I enjoy acknowledging women in a respectful way and I like to help those around me. Those are some of my reason for doing what I do.

And why do only women deserve your protection?

It certainly isn't only women that I would help or deserve it but we are talking specifically about women. I would do the same for anyone I thought needed help or protecting.

I guess Chivalry is something that not all men were raised with and they just can't get it, no matter how hard you try to explain. My heart is warmed by how many of the men in this thread *do* get it, though. I can tell by reading your posts that you are one of the men that gets it. Many thanks to you, keep being awesome

Libertysfate

I guess I fail to see the conflict between chivalry and equality.

Chivalry is a way of treating people...

Equality is allowing people an equal opportunity for achievement.

Men who hold back chivalry in the name of equality do so out of holding a grudge, or because they don't like showing respect to women in the first place.

But that's just my opinion.

Totally agree.

And to answer the question, no, I don't think chivalry is dead. I'm a feminist, but I can appreciate it when a man or anyone really, opens a door for me and pulls out a chair. It's really about respect and manner.

I've noticed more chivalry when I'm dressed up, though...

contingencyplan

Why do only women get to get put on a pedestal?

Good question, maybe because I'm a guy and not about to put another man on a pedestal. In actuality "pedestal" is probably the wrong word as it implies they're infallible or better. Neither of which is true. A better word might be acknowledgement, and yes it is acknowledgement in a gender specific role. You may not see the point in it. I enjoy the differences between men and women, I enjoy acknowledging women in a respectful way and I like to help those around me. Those are some of my reason for doing what I do.

And why do only women deserve your protection?

It certainly isn't only women that I would help or deserve it but we are talking specifically about women. I would do the same for anyone I thought needed help or protecting.

The whole point I was addressing/attacking (whether or not you choose to call it that) are the gender specific aspects of what people refer to as chivalry. In your eyes, does it say something negative about someone if the way they act toward strangers is in no way gender specific, even if it is overall common courtesy? Does it say he lacks "chivalry" because he doesn't go that extra mile beyond his already good social behavior just for women? THAT is my problem with "chivalry." The prospect that women are somehow more deserving than fellow men. Why can't we all just treat each other equally? That's how I see it, anyway. There is nothing I would do for a woman I did not personally know that I would not also do for a man I do not personally know. What does that say about me, based on your theories?

BobOki

I guess I fail to see the conflict between chivalry and equality.

Chivalry is a way of treating people...

Equality is allowing people an equal opportunity for achievement.

Men who hold back chivalry in the name of equality do so out of holding a grudge, or because they don't like showing respect to women in the first place.

But that's just my opinion.

^^ This!!! ^^

Equality dictates that like with men, women must earn their respect, until then they just get my kindness and politeness. Once again respect =/= chivalry

sunnshhiine

I guess I fail to see the conflict between chivalry and equality.

Chivalry is a way of treating people...

Equality is allowing people an equal opportunity for achievement.

Men who hold back chivalry in the name of equality do so out of holding a grudge, or because they don't like showing respect to women in the first place.

But that's just my opinion.

THIS.

oregonzoo

probably to those that are bitter and cynical, yes.

But as I see it, no. I see acts of chivalry everyday.

seilidhe

I guess I fail to see the conflict between chivalry and equality.

Chivalry is a way of treating people...

Equality is allowing people an equal opportunity for achievement.

Men who hold back chivalry in the name of equality do so out of holding a grudge, or because they don't like showing respect to women in the first place.

But that's just my opinion.

I like you.

I like you too.

destructor2013

It's not, it's just that a lot of women (not all) perceive men who practice chivalry to be weak or "putting them on a pedestal" which is not an entirely accurate portrayal of the practice of chivalry. Thus that leads to men being less chivalrous as time goes on and they have kids who are less chivalrous and so on.

sunnshhiine

It's not, however, the appreciation of chivalry is dying a horrible death.

So much this

and this. sadly.

Bagelsan

I'd be fine if chivalry were dead; I prefer being treated like a competent, equal human being worthy of respect rather than having men see my gender first and treating me politely based only on that.

contingencyplan

Why do only women get to get put on a pedestal?

Good question, maybe because I'm a guy and not about to put another man on a pedestal. In actuality "pedestal" is probably the wrong word as it implies they're infallible or better. Neither of which is true. A better word might be acknowledgement, and yes it is acknowledgement in a gender specific role. You may not see the point in it. I enjoy the differences between men and women, I enjoy acknowledging women in a respectful way and I like to help those around me. Those are some of my reason for doing what I do.

And why do only women deserve your protection?

It certainly isn't only women that I would help or deserve it but we are talking specifically about women. I would do the same for anyone I thought needed help or protecting.

I guess Chivalry is something that not all men were raised with and they just can't get it, no matter how hard you try to explain. My heart is warmed by how many of the men in this thread *do* get it, though. I can tell by reading your posts that you are one of the men that gets it. Many thanks to you, keep being awesome

I was raised with it. I just questioned it, is all. The person I am has very little to do with how my parents *tried* to raise me and it bothers me that people talk about it's how you were "raised." It has simply always been my nature to question the logic behind things, even the things my parents tried to teach me, and even as a child. And if I could not see logic behind it, I didn't go along with it. Regardless of traditions, regardless of societal standards, it has always been my nature to seek logic in things before I adhere to them. And that included what my parents tried to teach me. What I'm curious about is why there aren't others who question these things as well.

For the record, I am this way with all traditions. If I see no logic behind it, no justification that goes beyond "well, it's just what people do" then I don't do it. No logic, no understanding.

FatHuMan1

Why do only women get to get put on a pedestal?

Good question, maybe because I'm a guy and not about to put another man on a pedestal. In actuality "pedestal" is probably the wrong word as it implies they're infallible or better. Neither of which is true. A better word might be acknowledgement, and yes it is acknowledgement in a gender specific role. You may not see the point in it. I enjoy the differences between men and women, I enjoy acknowledging women in a respectful way and I like to help those around me. Those are some of my reason for doing what I do.

And why do only women deserve your protection?

It certainly isn't only women that I would help or deserve it but we are talking specifically about women. I would do the same for anyone I thought needed help or protecting.

I guess Chivalry is something that not all men were raised with and they just can't get it, no matter how hard you try to explain. My heart is warmed by how many of the men in this thread *do* get it, though. I can tell by reading your posts that you are one of the men that gets it. Many thanks to you, keep being awesome

For the record I was raised with it. But I see it for what it is: an anachronistic concept steeped in bias and gender inequalities. I have foregone chivalry and chosen common decency instead.

Briargrey

I'd be fine if chivalry were dead; I prefer being treated like a competent, equal human being worthy of respect rather than having men see my gender first and treating me politely based only on that.

This.

If you're asking me if I need help with my bag because you see me struggling, great. If you ask the man next to me the same thing, even better. If you ignore the man struggling and ask me even though I'm obviously not struggling, you're sexist. Even if your intentions are good. Gender shouldn't matter for these things, and as such, chivalry should be dead.

Chivalry has its roots in an extremely paternalistic society and really should be out-dated by now.

What shouldn't be outdated? Treating people well regardless of gender. The golden rule and all that.

Toblave

I'd be fine if chivalry were dead; I prefer being treated like a competent, equal human being worthy of respect rather than having men see my gender first and treating me politely based only on that.

I can almost guarantee that I would treat you politely regardless of your gender and if I were to open your door, offer my seat or to carry something for you it is certainly not because I think you are incompetent. I'd do it because I respect you as a woman and it's one way for me to show it.

BobOki

I'd be fine if chivalry were dead; I prefer being treated like a competent, equal human being worthy of respect rather than having men see my gender first and treating me politely based only on that.

This.

If you're asking me if I need help with my bag because you see me struggling, great. If you ask the man next to me the same thing, even better. If you ignore the man struggling and ask me even though I'm obviously not struggling, you're sexist. Even if your intentions are good. Gender shouldn't matter for these things, and as such, chivalry should be dead.

Chivalry has its roots in an extremely paternalistic society and really should be out-dated by now.

What shouldn't be outdated? Treating people well regardless of gender. The golden rule and all that.

I am noticing a trend, those of us who say chivalry should be dead and is sexist seem to be saying all people should be treated like this, regardless of sex. Those for it seem to me calling us bad men. I cannot say I am impressed.

FatHuMan1

I'd be fine if chivalry were dead; I prefer being treated like a competent, equal human being worthy of respect rather than having men see my gender first and treating me politely based only on that.

I can almost guarantee that I would treat you politely regardless of your gender and if I were to open your door, offer my seat or to carry something for you it is certainly not because I think you are incompetent. I'd do it because I respect you as a woman and it's one way for me to show it.

I could be wrong, but I think she wants you to respect her as a person,not as a woman.

seilidhe

Perhaps more people need to realize that "chivalry" is not just about how a man treats a woman. Chivalry is, basically, the entire code of knighthood - strength, honor, valour, courtesy, justice, a willingness to assist the weak, generosity in victory, and piety.

Nothing wrong, really, with any of that. And I think that anybody can be chivalrous... and *anybody* (female or male) can be treated with chivalry.

I hope "chivalry" isn't dead... or dying... or even ill. But sadly, with everything I see each day, I'm afraid it is.

JenniBaby85

*Edited because I posted to soon and wrong*

I would love to be respected as a woman., I am a woman, and I'm proud of my womanliness. So I want men to respect that.

Speaking for myself only, .

contingencyplan

Perhaps more people need to realize that "chivalry" is not just about how a man treats a woman. Chivalry is, basically, the entire code of knighthood - strength, honor, valour, courtesy, justice, a willingness to assist the weak, generosity in victory, and piety.

Nothing wrong, really, with any of that. And I think that anybody can be chivalrous... and *anybody* (female or male) can be treated with chivalry.

I hope "chivalry" isn't dead... or dying... or even ill. But sadly, with everything I see each day, I'm afraid it is.

Please don't use the whole "knights" example. There was so much hypocrisy in knighthood when that was written it isn't even funny. Cheating on your wife is adultery. But raping the wife of a man you kill in battle? Not adultery, spoils of victory. Let's not forget knighthood was basically bought. Your idea of the whole "knighthood" thing is a romanticized fantasy. Sorry to say.

hughtwalker

Behave decently and protect those more vulnerable than yourself - regardless of station, class nor sex. Just what is your problem with this concept?

If I have my arms full of parcels I am quite happy to have a woman open a door for me - why? I'd even welcome it.

- and at 64 I might even accept the offer of a seat on a crowded bus

delicious_cocktail

Perhaps more people need to realize that "chivalry" is not just about how a man treats a woman. Chivalry is, basically, the entire code of knighthood - strength, honor, valour, courtesy, justice, a willingness to assist the weak, generosity in victory, and piety.

Perhaps more people need to realize that arbitrary definitions that suit their personal taste are not the only definitions that exist for a word.

FatHuMan1

*Edited because I posted to soon and wrong*

I would love to be respected as a woman., I am a woman, and I'm proud of my womanliness. So I want men to respect that.

Speaking for myself only, I would love to be respected as a woman. I am a woman, and I'm proud of my womanliness, and I want people to respect that. .

Then I would disappoint you, because I don't respect people for their gender, or anything else they have no control over. I respect them for their choices, and their actions. Things they consciously choose, as opposed to what the genetic lottery chose for them.

gabbygirl78

I am sooo gonna get some back lash on this but I don't really care. It is my opinion. Not saying it is fact or should be everyone's opinion but it is what i believe to be true as a Christian woman. I believe a woman's place is in the home. I believe she should be taking care of the home and raising the children while the man works. I believe that things spiraled downward and children got out of hand when the mother's left to home to work. I don't believe a woman is equal to a man. I don't believe a woman can do anything a man can do nor do I believe they should be in a man's position. There were far less problems with society when women knew their place and did their job. Sorry if this offends any of these women on a power trip out there. I don't mean be let your man mistreat you but don't complain about Chivalry being dead when when it was the women that wanted to be treated equal to men. You all just ruined it for the ones that know our place as women.

contingencyplan

Behave decently and protect those more vulnerable than yourself - regardless of station, class nor sex. Just what is your problem with this concept?

If I have my arms full of parcels I am quite happy to have a woman open a door for me - why? I'd even welcome it.

- and at 64 I might even accept the offer of a seat on a crowded bus

That is the way it should be. And that's not chivalry. It's common courtesy.

Toblave

The whole point I was addressing/attacking (whether or not you choose to call it that) are the gender specific aspects of what people refer to as chivalry. In your eyes, does it say something negative about someone if the way they act toward strangers is in no way gender specific, even if it is overall common courtesy? Does it say he lacks "chivalry" because he doesn't go that extra mile beyond his already good social behavior just for women? THAT is my problem with "chivalry." The prospect that women are somehow more deserving than fellow men. Why can't we all just treat each other equally? That's how I see it, anyway. There is nothing I would do for a woman I did not personally know that I would not also do for a man I do not personally know. What does that say about me, based on your theories?

To me it says your probably a good man getting to hung up on the definition of equality. My wife and I are equals, but that does not mean we are equal in all things. I am far physically stronger than she is and better in math, however she has far better organizational skills and her memory is far better than mine. Clearly all of those things are important and her contribution is no less than mine to our home. But we are not the same and gender plays a part in that and I see no reason not to celebrate those differences.

PennyM140

I'd be fine if chivalry were dead; I prefer being treated like a competent, equal human being worthy of respect rather than having men see my gender first and treating me politely based only on that.

What is so wrong with a man treating a lady a little gentler and kinder than another man? Like it or not men and women ARE different. I don't see a problem with men offering help carrying something, holding a door, or being in general a bit protective of a lady, JUST because she's a lady. I think it's sweet and perfectly acceptable.

DamePiglet

Why do only women get to get put on a pedestal?

Good question, maybe because I'm a guy and not about to put another man on a pedestal. In actuality "pedestal" is probably the wrong word as it implies they're infallible or better. Neither of which is true. A better word might be acknowledgement, and yes it is acknowledgement in a gender specific role. You may not see the point in it. I enjoy the differences between men and women, I enjoy acknowledging women in a respectful way and I like to help those around me. Those are some of my reason for doing what I do.

And why do only women deserve your protection?

It certainly isn't only women that I would help or deserve it but we are talking specifically about women. I would do the same for anyone I thought needed help or protecting.

I guess Chivalry is something that not all men were raised with and they just can't get it, no matter how hard you try to explain. My heart is warmed by how many of the men in this thread *do* get it, though. I can tell by reading your posts that you are one of the men that gets it. Many thanks to you, keep being awesome

I was raised with it. I just questioned it, is all. The person I am has very little to do with how my parents *tried* to raise me and it bothers me that people talk about it's how you were "raised." It has simply always been my nature to question the logic behind things, even the things my parents tried to teach me, and even as a child. And if I could not see logic behind it, I didn't go along with it. Regardless of traditions, regardless of societal standards, it has always been my nature to seek logic in things before I adhere to them. And that included what my parents tried to teach me. What I'm curious about is why there aren't others who question these things as well.

For the record, I am this way with all traditions. If I see no logic behind it, no justification that goes beyond "well, it's just what people do" then I don't do it. No logic, no understanding.

That would make you undateable for me.
Just being honest.

See? It IS a good test.

stumblinthrulife

Just pushing this along towards the roll so it drops of my posts list. Nothing to see here. Move along.